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24th February 2013, 08:30 PM | #5121 |
Penultimate Amazing
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1. God does not exist.
2. Objective moral values do not exist. 3. You and me, human beings, create moral values within ourselves. We create them and sustain them and live and die by them. We are responsible for ourselves. We are responsible for others. We are responsible for the Earth. We answer to ourselves. |
24th February 2013, 11:13 PM | #5122 |
Penultimate Amazing
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So your argument now is that anything I can explain as a simple result of observable naturalistic processes should be equally or better attributed to a supernatural miracle?
I understand that my Internet connection is though my WiFi network linked by DSL to AT&T, and I have a modem, a WiFi card, and a monthly bill to prove it. If I move my computer far enough away from my modem or put it in a Faraday cage I lose the signal. I can even detect the radio signals with a receiver. But apparently you believe that I should not rule out the possibility that God himself has chosen to connect me to the Forum through a magical prayer Ethernet. If so I have some complaints about download speed I want you to take to God next time you pray. |
24th February 2013, 11:23 PM | #5123 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, morality is the evolution of standards of behavior that let societies get along and function. Morality is nothing more than the agreements we make to protect ourselves from everyone else. You don't hit people and take their stuff because you don't want to be hit and have your stuff taken. There's no opinion here. What the Nazis did violated the rules we came up with. Where in any of this do we need your imaginary friend to tell us that it's a good idea not to attack everyone else?
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24th February 2013, 11:54 PM | #5124 |
Penultimate Amazing
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25th February 2013, 03:22 AM | #5125 |
Philosopher
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25th February 2013, 03:26 AM | #5126 |
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25th February 2013, 04:04 AM | #5127 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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25th February 2013, 04:09 AM | #5128 |
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25th February 2013, 04:15 AM | #5129 |
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Well, many hit others and take their stuff, and hide afterwards, so that they will not be the victim of the same sort. And they often are well succeeded in doing so. Many do follow their personal preferences, without taking in regard that it could hurt the next. If you take in consideration, that according to your world view, there is only this life, no afterlife, then whatever you will do, that makes you happy, it will happen only here. So altruistic behavior, like die for someone else, makes no sense. And there is also no justice. If you were a Jerk during your whole life, that will bring no consequeces.
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25th February 2013, 04:31 AM | #5130 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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25th February 2013, 04:36 AM | #5131 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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25th February 2013, 04:44 AM | #5132 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, and there's a consequence for them if they get caught. This is why the vast majority of us do not take other people's stuff. Where we have a rule of law to enforce this morality the system works. Where the rule of law breaks down this doesn't work. Some of the places where the rule of law fails are the most religious on Earth (ever been to Kenya?).
Obviously there is only this life. Belief in anything else is simply succumbing to superstition or the inability to face one's mortality (or both I suppose). There's nothing wrong with doing what you find pleasing provided it harms no one else and doesn't prevent, unreasonably anyone else for doing as they please. I can't be bothered with some silly stories about apprentice carpenters with more ego than sense, flying horse, or made-up floods. The rules that humans have come up with are far superior to anything in your screwed up book. |
25th February 2013, 04:47 AM | #5133 |
Penultimate Amazing
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25th February 2013, 05:20 AM | #5134 |
Scholar
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Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?
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25th February 2013, 05:46 AM | #5135 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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25th February 2013, 05:47 AM | #5136 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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25th February 2013, 06:20 AM | #5137 |
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Actually that's quite an interesting & revealing comment coming from someone trying to defend creationism and deny evolution. Interesting and revealing because it shows that despite all the pseudo-scientific claims that you have cut-&-pasted here, the entire creationist argument really just reduces to creationists having to reject all evidence that they cannot personally witness as happening directly before their own eyes (unless of course they think it supports their religious faith). |
25th February 2013, 06:25 AM | #5138 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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25th February 2013, 06:26 AM | #5139 |
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No evidence of what? No evidence of scientific discovery and explanation being correct? If you are reduced to claiming that there is no evidence to support anything which science has discovered, explained and produced, then there must be something very strange indeed going on in your head . |
25th February 2013, 06:27 AM | #5140 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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25th February 2013, 06:56 AM | #5141 |
Hostile Nanobacon
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25th February 2013, 06:57 AM | #5142 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
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It's just another god-of-the-gaps defense.
"Well, you still can't explain those things that we still can't observe, so therefor my superstitious assertions about magical beings must be correct." In that form of fallacious reasoning, "We don't know" is always trumped by "We pretend to know". |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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25th February 2013, 06:59 AM | #5143 |
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25th February 2013, 08:06 AM | #5144 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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25th February 2013, 08:35 AM | #5145 |
a carbon based life-form
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25th February 2013, 08:49 AM | #5146 |
Penultimate Amazing
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When reading this thread, I can't help but imagine a youthful Gibhor coming to school without his homework, and giving the teacher an elaborate story about space aliens and atom bombs and interstellar time journeys. And when the teacher says "Baloney, you just didn't do it," mystification. "But it was such a good explanation! Much better than yours."
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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25th February 2013, 11:49 AM | #5147 |
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There is no direct evidence for God as creator. We do not see him. We do not see her. We do not see an intelligence that we identify clearly as such create before our very eyes. We do see nature creating, granted not living systems, but we see nature creating. So we go with what we see. God needs to show us himself/herself and make a fish or something. then we might believe that nonsense. On the other hand no one has ever presented good fossil evidence for a fish becoming a man, a reptile a bird, a one celled bug a whale and on and on. So neither theory is any good. It is just the naturalistic one is more evidentiary based because we have ZERO evidence for the existence of GOd.
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25th February 2013, 11:52 AM | #5148 |
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reposted with appropriate quote
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25th February 2013, 11:54 AM | #5149 |
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25th February 2013, 11:58 AM | #5150 |
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25th February 2013, 12:10 PM | #5151 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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25th February 2013, 12:12 PM | #5152 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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25th February 2013, 12:30 PM | #5153 | ||
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Depends on whether you want to conflate the word with "purpose".
I can tell you a lot about existence from an empirical perspective but not much on purpose. If his ace in the hole in on our existence then I just default to biochemistry/physics. GIBHOR keeps asking "how" we're here when what he really wants is "why" we're here <SNIP>.
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25th February 2013, 01:04 PM | #5154 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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We DO, in fact, have plenty of good fossil evidence for all of those things. And DNA evidence.
And other forms of evidence that are not as fundamental, but are still consistent with what we would expect from Evolution: Branching Patterns of immunology, embryology, morphology, etc. And, we can USE that data to solve real problems in the field of biology. We know the Theory of Evolution is... at least on the right track.... because otherwise, those solutions would all fail. Claiming "So neither theory is any good." is actually in accurate. The naturalistic one is TONS of some good! |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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25th February 2013, 01:13 PM | #5155 |
a carbon based life-form
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25th February 2013, 01:24 PM | #5156 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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25th February 2013, 01:33 PM | #5157 |
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We've seen the fossil transitions through time and they indicate diversity from fish to man. Evidence such as homology and conservation of body plan along the lineages provides evidence for that but is also predicted through evolution. We don't see a fish become a man but we see a fish develop into terrestrial creatures (and aquatic; they don't go up a ladder, they branch like a tree) and those terrestrial creatures develop and diversify (genetically and phenotypically, but genes beget phenotype). We see that from fossils and evolution predicts that. There's no barrier to it to indicate it absolutely could not have happened so the Theory of Evolution stands. GIBHOR's insistence that novel genes can be made is just wrong on so many levels. Biochemistry would literally have to invalidate itself for GIBHOR to be correct. You have to understand that genes work in a cascade function not just a part of protein synthesis; genes, functional or otherwise are all regulatory to each other. Having duplication changes regulatory pathways which affects everything in development including survival from another gene. Because of this survival isn't a dichotomous outcome which GIBHOR needs to make his "Half a wing" stupidity "fly" (hawhaw). The genes for wings came from a continuum which then adapted for flight rather than being there "first". It could also work the other way as we see in Penguins which evolved from an ancestor with developed "wings" which it adapted for flippers as per its environment. We see that in the flightless cormorant too, a species which obviously evolved from a winged ancestor which flew.
Special creation never could explain this though unless special creation adopts Evolution as true and just admits that God didn't create man God created physics and then left the experiment on. |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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25th February 2013, 02:12 PM | #5158 |
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25th February 2013, 02:14 PM | #5159 |
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25th February 2013, 02:16 PM | #5160 |
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