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Old 26th February 2013, 05:24 PM   #5281
Dancing David
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you have yet to show how they have been debunked.
I tried to show you the error of the Fine Tuning Argument but all you could say was SQUAWK for Jesus.

You never answered the question, either because you are a blind parrot or because you don't understand the Fine Tuning Argument, that is why you are false and dishonest, and a bad witness. There is no good work in just copy and pasting nonsense that you don't understand, by your behavior you make all followers of jesus look foolish.
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Old 26th February 2013, 05:26 PM   #5282
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
i know you have it easy to point out what you think you can use as justification to be against the bible. If i would be you, i would rather make a serious and unbiased bible study, then you will understand these issues in a other light.

You would be more convincing, if you would point out , what positive evidence you have for your case of strong atheism. Thats not so easy, isnt it ?
It is sad to me that you do not understand that that would be OT.

Start a new thread, with an honest title, if "strong atheism" is what you want to preach against.
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Old 26th February 2013, 05:27 PM   #5283
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The Cambrian Explosion argument he's using is complete crap. There are evidence of life WELL before the Cambrian Explosion which may be precursors. All the stuff was there well before however it was the emergence of the exoskeleton which easily fossilizes that led to the moniker of the event. It was not an explosion of life it was an explosion of fossils.

What's better is GIBHOR knows this since we've said that exact same thing before.
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Old 26th February 2013, 05:37 PM   #5284
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Because you assert it, that makes it not automatically true......
Because you assert your particular flavour of god, that makes it true.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Give up with the elshabby link spam.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
I think you take a precipitated conclusion, and underestimate the intelligence of other people, wich can well judge if a miracle happened, or not.
What on earth is a "precipitated conclusion"
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
why is inevitable ?
It just happened.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
the arise of the first living being cannot be explained through evolution.
Wrong.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
And again with the ElShabby link spam.
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Old 26th February 2013, 05:42 PM   #5285
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
well said.
So you believe killing people for being homosexuali is moral?
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
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Old 26th February 2013, 05:49 PM   #5286
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you propose it. You explain it
I have already, twice. You have ignored it because you are incapable of addressing it.
That Your failing not mine. As I said, you are intellectually stagnant.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
i know you have it easy to point out what you think you can use as justification to be against the bible.
show me where I am wrong.
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
If i would be you, i would rather make a serious and unbiased bible study, then you will understand these issues in a other light.
How do you think I came to my conclusions on the bible?



Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
You would be more convincing, if you would point out , what positive evidence you have for your case of strong atheism. Thats not so easy, isnt it ?
I don't defend strong atheism. I defend the position that naturalism is the best explanation for our existence.
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
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Old 26th February 2013, 06:01 PM   #5287
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Because you assert it, that makes it not automatically true......
So there's a bit of history I remember with you. I remember awhile ago you made a mistake just like this and the response you were given absolutely must be mentioned again.

You've come full circle twice over
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Old 26th February 2013, 10:10 PM   #5288
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Hi GIBHOR

If DNA was created, why are there so many problems with it. Why was it created in some situations to include Down Syndrome or Spina bifida and genetic preposition for some types of cancer.

Whats my Appendix for.

Did god have a bad day, or is he just cruel.

The way I understand it, if you need to consider DNA as "information", its more an "information record" of evolutionary change, just as the Grand Canyon is an information record of over two billion years of the Earth's geological history. (I understand there is a difference between Data and Information, but lets not get into that as its not important) or a tree ring contains information of its existance over its lifetime.
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:46 AM   #5289
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Because you assert it, that makes it not automatically true.....
Indeed. It's the mountains of empirical evidence that make it true.

Quote:
I think you take a precipitated conclusion, and underestimate the intelligence of other people, wich can well judge if a miracle happened, or not.
Just because these people assert it, that makes it not automatically true.

There is no empirical evidence for these "miracles". There is, however, plenty of empirical evidence for the cognitive biases and flawed perceptions which can lead people to inadvertantly fool themselves into thinking miraculous events have occurred. There is also plenty of evidence that when supposedly miraculous events (e.g. the exercise of a paranormal power by someone who is utterly convinced they possess one) are reproduced under circumstances which carefully eliminate the effect of these sources of error, it's invariably discovered that they don't have that power at all.

Quote:
why is inevitable ?
Because offspring resemble their parents, and not all offspring (even of the same parents) are identical, and parents produce far more offspring than are required to keep the population constant, and the earth's resources are finite.

Quote:
the arise of the first living being cannot be explained through evolution.
Of course it can't. Evolution by natural selection explains how living things become better adapted to their environments over millions of years, not how the first living organism originated. There are other theories for that, though they aren't as solidly proved as evolution by natural selection.
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Old 27th February 2013, 01:32 AM   #5290
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
argument from incredulity. There are millions of reports of miracles from all ages, just to classify all as delusion etc. , isnt that a simplistic explanation ?

i have seen miracles by myself, i know they happened

What of all the miracles reported by other religions? For example Hinduism.
http://www.speakingtree.in/spiritual...st-of-miracles

Should I now accept these claims as evidence that the Hindu religion is correct?

What of all the reports of alien abductions? So many thousands of people genuinely believe that they've experienced it first hand.

Should I now accept these claims as evidence that aliens are abducting people?

Simply claiming it happened isn't enough.
You have to provide verifiable evidence that it happened.
But nobody has ever done this.
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Old 27th February 2013, 02:14 AM   #5291
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
its hard to believe that " rational " atheists write and insist in such unscientific nonsense.


There are no cells that transmit or receive "information" in the sense that you are trying to use the word "information".

You are repeatedly, and deliberately, misusing the word "information" because you want to claim that living cells are responding to "information" from God.

Chemical molecules do not hear voices from God (you might hear voices, but chemicals don’t), and they don’t speak the word of God to one-another either.

All that chemical molecules can do is to function through simple chemical reactions according to the most efficient reaction pathways.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:15 AM   #5292
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Hi GIBHOR

If DNA was created, why are there so many problems with it. Why was it created in some situations to include Down Syndrome or Spina bifida and genetic preposition for some types of cancer.

Whats my Appendix for.

Did god have a bad day, or is he just cruel.
http://www.uncommondescent.com/faq/#nobdesn

Quote:
Some, for example, point to the cruelty in nature, arguing that no self respecting designer would set things up that way. But that need not be the case. It may well be that the designer chose to create an “optimum design” or a “robust and adaptable design” rather than a “perfect design.” Perhaps some animals or creatures behave exactly the way they do to enhance the ecology in ways that we don’t know about. Perhaps the “apparent” destructive behavior of some animals provides other animals with an advantage in order to maintain balance in nature or even to change the proportions of the animal population.

Under such circumstances, the “bad design” argument is not an argument against design at all. It is a premature — and, at times, a presumptuous — judgment on the sensibilities of the designer. Coming from theistic evolutionists, who claim to be “devout” Christians, this objection is therefore especially problematic. For, as believers within the Judeo-Christian tradition they are committed to the doctrine of original sin, through which our first parents disobeyed God and compromised the harmonious relationship between God and man. Accordingly, this break between the creator and the creature affected the relationship between men, animals, and the universe, meaning that the perfect design was rendered imperfect. A spoiled design is not a bad design.
[/quote]

http://creation.com/refuting-evoluti...from-evolution

http://dennisdjones.wordpress.com/20...design-theory/


Quote:
The way I understand it, if you need to consider DNA as "information", its more an "information record" of evolutionary change, just as the Grand Canyon is an information record of over two billion years of the Earth's geological history.
thats a bad comparison. The DNA is a script like a computercode, or a written book.


Quote:
(I understand there is a difference between Data and Information, but lets not get into that as its not important) or a tree ring contains information of its existance over its lifetime.
but its not codified, specified, complex information, as contained in a book, or dna.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:24 AM   #5293
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
There are no cells that transmit or receive "information" in the sense that you are trying to use the word "information".
http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t288-the-genetic-code

Quote:
As Lee Strobel explains: "The data at the core of life is not disorganized, it's not simply orderly like salt crystals, but it's complex and specific information that can accomplish a bewildering task—the building of biological machines that far outstrip human technological capabilities" (p. 244).

For instance, the precision of this genetic language is such that the average mistake that is not caught turns out to be one error per 10 billion letters. If a mistake occurs in one of the most significant parts of the code, which is in the genes, it can cause a disease such as sickle-cell anemia. Yet even the best and most intelligent typist in the world couldn't come close to making only one mistake per 10 billion letters—far from it.

So to believe that the genetic code gradually evolved in Darwinian style would break all the known rules of how matter, energy and the laws of nature work. In fact, there has not been found in nature any example of one information system inside the cell gradually evolving into another functional information program.

Michael Behe, a biochemist and professor at Pennsylvania's Lehigh University, explains that genetic information is primarily an instruction manual and gives some examples.

He writes: "Consider a step-by-step list of [genetic] instructions. A mutation is a change in one of the lines of instructions. So instead of saying, "Take a 1/4-inch nut," a mutation might say, "Take a 3/8-inch nut." Or instead of "Place the round peg in the round hole," we might get "Place the round peg in the square hole" . . . What a mutation cannot do is change all the instructions in one step—say, [providing instructions] to build a fax machine instead of a radio" (Darwin's Black Box, 1996, p. 41).

We therefore have in the genetic code an immensely complex instruction manual that has been majestically designed by a more intelligent source than human beings.

Quote:
You are repeatedly, and deliberately, misusing the word "information" because you want to claim that living cells are responding to "information" from God.
http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t288-the-genetic-code

Quote:
Information theory terms and ideas applied to DNA are not metaphorical, but in fact quite literal in every way. In other words, the information theory argument for design is not based on analogy at all. It is direct application of mathematics to DNA, which by definition is a code.

Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."

Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this.
"There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it."
Quote:
Chemical molecules do not hear voices from God (you might hear voices, but chemicals don’t), and they don’t speak the word of God to one-another either.

All that chemical molecules can do is to function through simple chemical reactions according to the most efficient reaction pathways.
but to do so, they need to be programmed to do so.....who wrote the instruction program in the cell ?
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:27 AM   #5294
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
What of all the miracles reported by other religions? For example Hinduism.
http://www.speakingtree.in/spiritual...st-of-miracles

Should I now accept these claims as evidence that the Hindu religion is correct?

What of all the reports of alien abductions? So many thousands of people genuinely believe that they've experienced it first hand.

Should I now accept these claims as evidence that aliens are abducting people?

Simply claiming it happened isn't enough.
You have to provide verifiable evidence that it happened.
But nobody has ever done this.
you still think you can disqualify all reports of miracles ad hoc as nonsense.
thats a argument based on incredulity and willful ignorance.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:47 AM   #5295
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Indeed. It's the mountains of empirical evidence that make it true.
the mountain is so big, that despite all the propaganda a big percentage of the u.s. population does not believe that macro evolution is true......

Quote:
There is no empirical evidence for these "miracles".
most things you know, you don't based on empirical evidence. Why do you think that only things that can be empricially proven, must or can be true ?

http://creationwiki.org/Scientism

Quote:
If the meanings of sentences used to describe something cannot be measured by the natural scientific method then the sentence is meaningless containing no cognitive significance. What all this amounts to is that if only relying on strong scientism within a worldview as an epistemology than it is self-refuting. The very propositions used to describe the theory of knowledge itself like, "only that which is measured by natural sciences is true", cannot in of itself be measured by the natural sciences.
Quote:
There is, however, plenty of empirical evidence for the cognitive biases and flawed perceptions which can lead people to inadvertantly fool themselves into thinking miraculous events have occurred.
I went with a pastor, friend of mine, visit my farm. He was never there, and never met any of my employees there. When we arrived, we me one of them. My pastor saw him, and said to him : God has shown me that you had a car accident, in 2003. Your intestine was all open, you lost a lot of blood, you almost died. But God has a plan in your life, thats why he did not aloud you to die. His sister was on his side, and screamed immediately : Ed, you had indeed a car acciden, and almost died. He was shocked, i saw literally his surprise in his eyes. Later , he confessed me, that God called him many times to serve him, but he always struggled. After this event, two weeks later, he converted to Christ, and serves the lord today. I have presenced other similar things. you could say : for sure, they met before, the pastor knew the story etc. Why should Ed have simulated his surprise, his life change, and lied ?
All illusion ??!!


Quote:
There is also plenty of evidence that when supposedly miraculous events (e.g. the exercise of a paranormal power by someone who is utterly convinced they possess one) are reproduced under circumstances which carefully eliminate the effect of these sources of error, it's invariably discovered that they don't have that power at all.
there are many paranormal phenomenas, that you cannot explain away the way you wish.

Last edited by GIBHOR; 27th February 2013 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:49 AM   #5296
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now Ive heard it all

Enjoy your thread ppl.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:52 AM   #5297
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
I don't defend strong atheism. I defend the position that naturalism is the best explanation for our existence.
your defense was a poor job so far
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:52 AM   #5298
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post





I went with a pastor, friend of mine, visit my farm. He was never there, and never met any of my employees there. When we arrived, we me one of them. My pastor saw him, and said to him : God has shown me that you had a car accident, in 2003. Your intestine was all open, you lost a lot of blood, you almost died. But God has a plan in your life, thats why he did not aloud you to die. His sister was on his side, and screamed immediately : Ed, you had indeed a car acciden, and almost died. He was shocked, i saw literally his surprise in his eyes. Later , he confessed me, that God called him many times to serve him, but he always struggled. After this event, two weeks later, he converted to Christ, and serves the lord today. I have other presenced sensimilar things.
All illusion ??!!



No, a tall story. Got any more campfire anecdotes? There is no such word as ''presenced''. I once saw a duck tap dancing and singing the Lord's praises. Do you believe me?
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:53 AM   #5299
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
So you believe killing people for being homosexuali is moral?
according to your world view, you cannot say, either its moral, or not.

What is the moral difference between killing your neighbour, and killing his cat ?

according to your world view, none.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:55 AM   #5300
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
No, a tall story. Got any more campfire anecdotes?
no, not a campfire anecdotes, but a fact that occured in my presence.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:56 AM   #5301
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
according to your world view, you cannot say, either its moral, or not.

What is the moral difference between killing your neighbour, and killing his cat ?

according to your world view, none.
You words, not his. Is this way you debate? Pathetic.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:59 AM   #5302
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
no, not a campfire anecdotes, but a fact that occured in my presence.
The duck tap danced and sang the Lord's praises in my presence. Fact. A goose nearby was possessed by the Devil at the same moment and took issue with the duck. Fact.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:59 AM   #5303
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wrong.
explain it then. i am all ears.
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:12 AM   #5304
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
explain it then. i am all ears.
No you are not. You have stated outright that you will not read anything.
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:12 AM   #5305
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
the mountain is so big, that despite all the propaganda a big percentage of the u.s. population does not believe that macro evolution is true......
Then a big percentage of the US population is wilfully ignorant.

Quote:
most things you know, you don't based on empirical evidence. Why do you think that only things that can be empricially proven, must or can be true ?
Most things I know don't defy the laws of nature. Any claim that does requires empirical evidence before I will accept it because I know how easily people can fool themselves into believing such things, even though they aren't true.

Quote:
Why should Ed have simulated his surprise, his life change, and lied ?
All illusion ??!!
There is nothing about this anecdote that can only be explained by a miracle.

Quote:
there are many paranormal phenomenas, that you cannot explain away the way you wish.
I have yet to be offered evidence of a single one that can't be explained without evoking the paranormal.
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:17 AM   #5306
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
thats a bad comparison. The DNA is a script like a computercode, or a written book
Only metaphorically, not literally.

Computer code and script is language, purely abstract, where the meanings of sequences are completely arbitrary.

DNA is functional. The "meanings" of the sequences are determined by physical/chemical interaction with other molecules.

Describing DNA in terms of being cogs or levers in a mechanical adding machine would be an equally valid analogy as the computer code or written book analogy.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Quote:
(I understand there is a difference between Data and Information, but lets not get into that as its not important) or a tree ring contains information of its existance over its lifetime.
but its not codified, specified, complex information, as contained in a book, or dna.
How is it not?

Codified? It's codified as rings of varying thickness. In fact, you don't need to look at the entire cross-section of the tree, just look at a line segment from the center of the trunk to the outer bark. It's effectively a binary code representing the history of the tree, a lot like a barcode.

Specified? I've asked you what you meant by specified before, but you never answered. Specified by whom? Simply saying that this or that information is or is not specified is meaningless gibberish. Specified simply means that someone has clearly indicated exactly which information they're talking about. If I say "I'm talking about the rings in the tree in my backyard" then information provided by the rings in the tree in my backyard has been specified.

Complex? All information possesses a degree of complexity. How complex is complex? And have you ever looked at tree rings? They aren't just circles, there is a moderate degree of complexity.
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:18 AM   #5307
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post




there are many paranormal phenomenas, that you cannot explain away the way you wish.
So you believe in the paranormal? You ought to read the bible.

Exodus 22:18
''Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.''
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:45 AM   #5308
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you still think you can disqualify all reports of miracles ad hoc as nonsense.
thats a argument based on incredulity and willful ignorance.

The burden of proof is on the people making the claim. It's up to them to provide evidence that they really did experience something supernatural or miraculous. Large numbers of anecdotes with zero verifiable evidence to support them are not a compelling reason to take their position seriously.

If I took things like that seriously, I'd also have to take seriously claims of telepathy, dowsing, speaking with the dead, homeopathy, alien abductions, scientology, reiki, feng seui, astrology, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, levitation, telekinesis, tarot card readings, and so on.

Over centuries, scientists have built up a vast body of verifiable observations of how the universe works. If anyone wants to make claims that fall outside of this existing body of observational evidence, it's necessary for these claims to be verified before they're accepted, otherwise you could end up accepting any old nonsense.

You say that dismissing these unverified anecdotal accounts of supernatural phenomena is an act of incredulity and willful ignorance.

I say that NOT dismissing unverified anecdotal accounts of supernatural phenomena is an act of credulity and gullibility.


Tell me, do you believe the accounts of alien abduction? If not, then why not?
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:58 AM   #5309
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Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
according to your world view, you cannot say, either its moral, or not.

What is the moral difference between killing your neighbour, and killing his cat ?

according to your world view, none.
You have misunderstod the naturalistic word views.
Why have you done this, when it has been explained to you in a very simple way?
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:58 AM   #5310
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Thats a bad comparison. The DNA is a script like a computercode, or a written book.
I see you refuse to learn about epigenetics.
That's ok. It just makes your argument equal parts ignorant and quaint. Much like how I view someone who would say, "airplanes can never fly!"

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you still think you can disqualify all reports of miracles ad hoc as nonsense.
thats a argument based on incredulity and willful ignorance.
Yes. Much like I dismiss reports of bigfoot, alien abductions, Loch Ness, Vampires, Ghosts and all other forms of miracles.

Of course, I am happy to change my opinion if actual evidence evidence is presented.
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:07 AM   #5311
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
according to your world view, you cannot say, either its moral, or not.
Not true, but your Dodge is noted.
Let's try again.
Do you believe it moral to kill someone for being homosexual?
The old testament says it is.
Do you agree with the Old testament or not?
If not, why?

My main point here is that your morality is also subjective. The only difference between you and me is that I take full responsibility for my moral code. You externalize your responsibility by claiming it is objective law from god.
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:45 AM   #5312
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Nice non sequitor, it has nothing to do with objective morals, and of course naturalism doesn't care about ontology. So a non sequitor and a strawman
Existence cannot be addressed outside the study of ontology. Any other study is regarding phenomena already existing, not the origin of their existence.

Quote:
If you don't understand the evidence for the theory of natural selection, then you can learn
I am aware of it, it doesn't provide a theory for our existence. Only an explanation of how our bodies developed on this planet. Similarly any other explanation of how things develop in nature does not explain existence.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:07 AM   #5313
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
t


there are many paranormal phenomenas, that you cannot explain away the way you wish.
That really helps your credibility!

-you just copy and paste
-you don't understand the material on either side
-you can't understand critiques
-you have so little faith you hide from those who point out your dishonest tactics

Now you add 'paranormal phenomenas'.

Stop now GIBHOR there are many good jesus people out there, your arguments make them look really silly.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:08 AM   #5314
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
according to your world view, you cannot say, either its moral, or not.

What is the moral difference between killing your neighbour, and killing his cat ?

according to your world view, none.
Where did joobz say that?

Your honesty level is appalling!
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:12 AM   #5315
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
explain it then. i am all ears.
This is an untruth GIBHOR and your behaviors puts it to a lie.

You refused to discuss the actual basis of the Fine Tuning Argument, repeatedly and over and over. That and about fifty other times in this thread you have shown you do not even read what people post but just respond blindly.

So you in short are a liar.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:13 AM   #5316
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Existence cannot be addressed outside the study of ontology. Any other study is regarding phenomena already existing, not the origin of their existence.

I am aware of it, it doesn't provide a theory for our existence. Only an explanation of how our bodies developed on this planet. Similarly any other explanation of how things develop in nature does not explain existence.
You exist as an organic body, yes or no?
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:14 AM   #5317
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
kkkkk.....thats a funny one.

Have you checked who made the argument ????
David Deming. Someone who I've never heard of before. Reading the article? It's actually a little better than I expected, but my response is unchanged. The arguments that he's knocking down are, completely unsurprisingly, straw men, and have been for a long time. Your attempt at an argument from authority fails.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:20 AM   #5318
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
who disagrees with me ? and dawkins ? and collins ? and crick ? and and and ??
Probably Dawkins. And Collins. And Crick. And and and. Quote mining is quote mining and tends to be highly dishonest.

Sorta like quoting something like...

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
naturalism is the best explanation for our existence
And proclaiming that GIBHOR thinks that naturalism is the best explanation for our existence. Despite the fact that that requires ignoring the rest of the context of this thread.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:34 AM   #5319
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Dsihonest troll is...dishonest.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
its amazing how much atheists of this forum like to debate a troll.....
1. You admit to being a troll--which admission, by the way, goes a long way toward explaining why your participation in a thread about naturalism as the best explanation for our existence has primarily consisted of preaching against your straw man version of naturalism, incorporating such means as dishonest quote-mining and copypasta.

1.a. (Pedantic aside: this is not, cannot be, a "debate"...no matter how much Americans have debased the term.)

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I missed this the first time 'round, this morning.

Thank you for your honest admission that you are, in fact, a troll, and that your OT posts are, in fact, trolling. [/thread]
2. I thank you sincerely for your refreshing honesty, at least in regards to this specific issue.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
there is a dictate in german :

gleich mit gleich gesellt sich gern
3. You groundlessly accuse me of being just like you, in German, no less--how erudite.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
4. You continue your OT trolling. Unless you are asserting that the fact that your designer is incompetent, a fool, a trickster, or a cosmic liar, is the reason you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence, claiming that poor design (as would be expected to result form evolution by natural selection) is evidence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent designer is OT.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
thats a bad comparison. The DNA is a script like a computercode, or a written book.
5. You have been corrected on this before. It is not the "letters" of DNA that result in the functions of DNA, but the physical shape of the codons. The shape of a book is unimportant--different formats of the same book (e-book, mimeograph copies, photocopies, autographic copies, books-on-tape versions) convey the same ideas. Changing the font, or typeface, in which it is written does not change the meaning of a word (why not render your German aphorism in Fraktur?). Changing the shape of a DNA molecule would change its function. Your OT contention boils down to a fatuous claim that the shape of a book is its message--which is only true of you are using it to prop up the corner of your desk.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
but its not codified, specified, complex information, as contained in a book, or dna.
6. Equivocation about DNA is...equivocal. And OT.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:36 AM   #5320
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Only metaphorically, not literally.

Computer code and script is language, purely abstract, where the meanings of sequences are completely arbitrary.

DNA is functional. The "meanings" of the sequences are determined by physical/chemical interaction with other molecules.

Describing DNA in terms of being cogs or levers in a mechanical adding machine would be an equally valid analogy as the computer code or written book analogy.
Incidentally, GIBHOR, Collins' analogy was a good one, for the intended purpose. Not directly accurate by any means, but it communicated a general concept that was easily understandable by massive numbers of people. Trying to take such an attempt as literal truth will inevitably be inaccurate, though, when dealing with matters like your follow up quote did.
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