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24th February 2013, 04:25 AM | #5041 |
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24th February 2013, 04:25 AM | #5042 |
a carbon based life-form
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24th February 2013, 04:26 AM | #5043 |
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24th February 2013, 04:27 AM | #5044 |
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24th February 2013, 04:28 AM | #5045 |
Schrödinger's cat
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I'm old, but not that old.
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I am also capable of following the logical argument that leads to the inescapable conclusion that evolution by natural selection is not just possible but inevitable.
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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24th February 2013, 04:30 AM | #5046 |
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24th February 2013, 04:41 AM | #5047 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Societies simply evolve standards of conduct to help each other get along. You can't go hunt and gather if you're afraid someone is going to take the stuff from your cave while you're gone. So, everyone agrees not to take each other's stuff. It helps to know that there's stone ax with your name on it if you break the rule. The other bits of morality came about sort of the same way.
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24th February 2013, 04:47 AM | #5048 |
Penultimate Amazing
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24th February 2013, 04:51 AM | #5049 |
Schrödinger's cat
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DNA analysis, the fossil record, and logically valid inference.
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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24th February 2013, 05:12 AM | #5050 |
Penultimate Amazing
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GIBHOR, more dishonest copy pasta on your part and now to ask the questions that you refuse to answer. But it seems that you will prove that all you do is copy and paste, because you refuse to answer them, perhaps you should pray to god for understanding so you can actually address the questions and show that you are not just a parrot.
Why aren't you addressing the question? If there are a possible infinite number of values between the current mass of the electron and twice the current mass of the electron, then there are an infinite number of possible universes based upon those values for the mass of the electron. If there are an infinite number of universes possible with the value of the mass of the electron between its current value and twice its current value, how can you say that the value for the mass of the electron is fine tuned? [iteration 16] |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 05:14 AM | #5051 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 05:19 AM | #5052 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The point is this GIBHOR, the nature of Stenger's belief does not matter, you haven't actually addressed Stengers argument, because you are just a parrot, you do not understand what you copy and paste, you just copy and paste it.
So what if Stenger is a rabid atheist, his argument is what matters, and that is the part that you have failed to address, because you did not read Stenger's paper and you do not appear to understand the Fine Tuning Argument. You just copy and paste because you think that empty words will witness for Jesus. When Jesus themselves allegedly said that it is acts that matter not words, and here copy and paste makes you look like a parrot for Jesus that just recites empty words with no actual understanding of them. Why aren't you addressing the question? If there are a possible infinite number of values between the current mass of the electron and twice the current mass of the electron, then there are an infinite number of possible universes based upon those values for the mass of the electron. If there are an infinite number of universes possible with the value of the mass of the electron between its current value and twice its current value, how can you say that the value for the mass of the electron is fine tuned? [iteration 17] |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 05:24 AM | #5053 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I notice that you engage in empty parrot behavior again, you did not address a single argument but just played back a tape that you found somewhere else. Is that really being a heartfelt witness for your faith or is it just empty words. For example, why is it good design to have the blood vessels of the retina in front of the photo-receptors GIBHOR, your empty parrot quote did not answer my statement and in fact showed that yo did not read it, but that you are just a robot witness that copy and pastes without reading the posts you respond to or actual understanding. Please stop showing that you are an empty hearted robot witness and address the questions GIBHOR: Why is it good design to have the blood vessels of the retina in front of the photo-receptors? |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 05:31 AM | #5054 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Ah but you have shown that you are unwilling to learn, your faith seems weak because you do not actually read, examine and comprehend other people's arguments. You seem to be a witness that has as much faith as any robot, you do not actually examine anything that might challenge you faith because you have blind faith. Therefore instead of having true faith you are a parrot robot. I know many faith filled people GIBHOR, they are not afraid to actually try to understand science and its arguments. Just like the geologists in the 1700 and 1800s and many since then they have strong enough faith to understand science and still have faith. They do not hide behind concepts that are false like creation science because they have blind faith in what some misguided human told them. they have faith and have looked at the actual statements and science. They do not hide behind their false faith because they have enough faith to see them through. Answer the questions GIBHOR show your true faith by admitting that blind faith is wrong and that science might be correct and accurate. Why aren't you addressing the question? If there are a possible infinite number of values between the current mass of the electron and twice the current mass of the electron, then there are an infinite number of possible universes based upon those values for the mass of the electron. If there are an infinite number of universes possible with the value of the mass of the electron between its current value and twice its current value, how can you say that the value for the mass of the electron is fine tuned? [iteration 18] |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 05:40 AM | #5056 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Oh you mean like the false statements you made about Stenger's paper in two separate posts.
Where did you acknowledge those corrections GIBHOR, on two separate occasions you tried to address Stenger's paper, by acting as a blind parrot robot, in one you posted a nonsense paper that in no way actually addressed Stenger's paper. It was an empty paper because no where did it actually address and of Stenger's points in his paper. You just blindly copy and pasted it. then you posted a link to paper about the neutron alpha capture from a source, which was another false statement, no where is Stengerns paper do they discuss the alpha neutron capture process, But there you were being a blind robot for your faith, I doubt you will even admit it now. You are a blind robot for your faith, secure behind your walls because it seems you do not want to test your faith, you are just wanting to be a parrot witness. Stop the copy pasta GIBHOR is makes you a poor witness and puts your arguments in a very bad light. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 05:47 AM | #5057 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Wrong, yet again.
Everyone of those acts has been mandated by religious beliefs at one time or another, GIBHOR Ah, you're a believer in the efficacy of blood sacrifice. What a question, GIBHOR. You're aware people have done these things throughout history with a perfectly clear conscience? Wrong again, GIBHOR. Life is finely tuned to the universe. Wrong again, GIBHOR. 2. Objective moral values and duties do exist. Fail. |
24th February 2013, 05:50 AM | #5058 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The dishonesty is this GIBHOR:
You just copy and paste, you have not tried to understand the argument for evolution and just blindly squawk out some empty blind faith that you found somewhere else. You hide behind your blind faith and do no actually examine the arguments you blindly robot paste against. You do not try to understand the argument you argue against, you do not read my posts, you do not try to comprehend my posts, you do not address the points I try to make in my posts. What you do is worse, you just see a word and then go to your robot warehouse of blind faith and then copy what someone else has said. That is the dishonesty GIBHOR, you respond blindly to posts, you do not try to understand them or comprehend the discussion, you just see a word and then go and get something from your parrot vault of blind faith. If you actually read some of the posts other people write, if you actually tried to understand and participate in discussion that would be honest GIBHOR. Robot parrots make poor witnesses for their faith, they demonstrate that they are parrot robots and not faithful at all. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:04 AM | #5059 |
Penultimate Amazing
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This is blind faith GIBHOR, this is your showing that you are not strong enough in your faith to stand in the fire, instead you make your faith look empty and your arguements look equally empty.
Here is something to discuss GIBHOR and it is about natural selection, if you have faith to stand in the fire. Natural selection and the theory of evolution are based upon one simple principle, that members of a population which breed successfully will pass on more genetic material to the subsequent generations. One of the arguments for natural selection is that traits which benefit reproduction will be passed on, even though they are detrimental to the individual and may not be beneficial to the population because all that matters is that it benefits reproduction. So we have things like sickle cell anemia, it is very detrimental to someone who has the full trait. There life span is shortened and they have many health problems. Even those who have only half the sickle cell trait have a higher risk of certain complications and are more likely to die as a consequence. So the full trait is bad for the individual, the half trait is also not so good. But why then is this trait so common in some populations? It is not good design, it does not lead to good design for the individual that has it, it is in fact an error in the gene for the creation of hemoglobin. It is detrimental to the individual that has it. But in the presence of the malaria parasite. Those with half the trait are more likely to resist the malaria parasite and they are more likely to reproduce. Now if it was a design issue, would it not be easier to design immunity to the parasite? natural selection predicts that even though the trait is detrimental to individuals it will be passed on because of reproductive success. Stand in the fire GIBHOR, show that you are not a robot witness. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:07 AM | #5060 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Well one more thing for you to ignore GIBHOR, game theory.
In a game you do not want other people to just walk up and kill you, therefore by game theory one of the rules that will be established is that it is against the rules to other kill people. Why, because most players will agree to it from their own selfish interest. One more test of your faith. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:10 AM | #5061 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Squawk , empty robot parrot witness for for faith. Squawk.
Empty robot parrot does not have enough faith to read, comprehend and understand other people's statements and arguments. Empty robot parrot witness for for faith is a poor witness and makes faith look empty and robotic. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:12 AM | #5062 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I am not responsible for your acts that look dishonest GIBHOR, you are the one who acts the way that you do.
You did not half to make false empty parrot responses to my posts about Stenger, you can choose otherwise. maybe some of hope that you will turn off the parrot robot, stop the copy and paste and actually enter the discussion. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:14 AM | #5063 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:24 AM | #5064 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Mostly it is a consequence of your blind copy and paste GIBHOR, I can point out multiple places where it looks as though you did not read my posts, but that you just blindly copy and pasted your answer from some one else.
IE: i asked you about the poor design of the retina, in that the blood vessels are in front of the photo receptors, you did not respond to my actual statement, but seemingly just saw the word retina and then you copy and pasted something from the ICR. But the copy pasta did not address the actual point I made , nor did you. Stand in the fire GIBHOR, I will be patient and my guess is that you will find your faith stronger for the seeing. I am saying this, naturalism (method) explains the possible reason why the blood vessels in the retina are in front of the photo receptors, which is poor design. In design one does not put supportive structures in front of optical interfaces because it interferes with the function of the optical interface. Good design tries to minimize the interference of support structures in front of the optical interface. So I can explain why naturalism says the blood vessels are in front of the photo receptors. Can you explain how good design does? ( I should warn you, I have been dubbed a silver tongued devil) |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:25 AM | #5065 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:27 AM | #5066 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:28 AM | #5067 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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24th February 2013, 06:57 AM | #5068 |
Banned
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24th February 2013, 06:58 AM | #5069 |
Banned
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24th February 2013, 07:01 AM | #5070 |
Banned
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24th February 2013, 07:05 AM | #5071 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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24th February 2013, 07:16 AM | #5072 |
Schrödinger's cat
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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24th February 2013, 07:26 AM | #5073 |
Hostile Nanobacon
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They don't exist but what makes you think god(s) would be the source of them if they did?
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24th February 2013, 07:32 AM | #5074 |
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Do try to keep up.
The "miracle" thing is your superstition. When you try to pretend that you believe naturalism to be the best explanation of your existence because of a "miracle", it makes it clear you have not been paying attention. Or that you are willing to be dishonest (although that has already been attested to by your quote-mining tricks). Methodological naturalism has no need of "miracles"... |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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24th February 2013, 07:34 AM | #5075 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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24th February 2013, 07:39 AM | #5076 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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24th February 2013, 07:44 AM | #5077 |
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So a cherry-picked, mined quote, ripped out of context, misrepresenting Dr. Sagan's position, is not dishonest?
So constantly pretending to demand "evidence", while at the same time bragging about not needing to look at the evidence, is not dishonest? ...one way to avoid accusations of dishonesty is to act honestly. |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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24th February 2013, 07:48 AM | #5078 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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24th February 2013, 07:49 AM | #5079 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
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Both, actually, much as both first require actually having a working definition of what counts as objective.
It's for the peanut gallery, mostly. The hope that you'll actually learn from your mistakes seems vanishingly remote. I explained why I said what I said. You're just running away without presenting why I'm wrong, yet again, which is one of the major criticisms that applies to most of the points that you've tried to make and one of the major reasons why I've stated that you're not even remotely accomplishing your apparent goals. I'm quite willing to be shown that I'm wrong, for the record, though I simply don't believe that I am, based on your behavior and choice of arguments. I have, but hey, let's go again using the longer version and I'll point out a couple of the biggest issues. "Something cannot come from absolute nothing, therefore my version of God is true." Issue 1: Relevance. Very few people say that something came from absolute nothing, theist or atheist. You very certainly haven't, by claiming God as a "solution." If one or more Gods existed, given the used concept of absolute nothing, absolute nothing cannot be the case, because the existence of anything is mutually exclusive with absolute nothing, as you've defined it. Attempts to work around that problem to try to make it relevant just invoke infinite regression, which, as I recall, you've attempted to argue is impossible, in the past. What's more, there's no good reason to conclude that absolute nothing even can potentially "exist," given the information at our disposal. That in no way, of course, removes the possibility that our universe was created, but the argument in question is trying to argue for the necessity of a specific type of deity, not the possibility of a deity of some kind. Taking these issues into account removes any semblance of validity from any attempt to use this to argue for the necessity of a deity, which renders the argument useless. ETA: Hmm. I appear to be a bit tired, though, as I left out a significant point here. Another simple fact is that existence is a more encompassing concept than "God." Existence can exist, with or without a God, but existence always exists if a God exists. Thus, a god cannot be fundamentally necessary for existence to exist, which counters and overrules the point of the something can't come from nothing argument, regardless, and forces the concept of infinite regression upon any claims of the necessity of a creator god. No, it's not the kind of issue that can be defined around, as has been attempted. It's a logical and conceptual issue, not a definition issue. Issue 2: Jumping to untenable conclusions. Even if the first issue was not more than enough to invalidate it and it somehow did demonstrate that a deity had to be the case, all this argument even could be used for would be exactly that. Anything and everything else about your desired version of God would not be validated, including that it had any involvement in anything at all other than making the stuff of reality. Logically speaking, we'd be at the point where any and all other untestable and unverifiable claims about the deity in question would be held as exactly as likely as your desired version, which means that you'd be invoking special pleading in your claims. Special pleading, for the record, is fallacious and untrustworthy by its nature. |
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24th February 2013, 07:54 AM | #5080 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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