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Old 24th February 2013, 04:25 AM   #5041
GIBHOR
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
after all of your mis-statements,
what mis-statements ?
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:25 AM   #5042
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
wings of birds through evolution, that is worse than magic....

and : no, i bet you just believe. You don't know how this could happen.
Does a penguin have a wing or a flipper?
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:26 AM   #5043
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Wrong.
please point out, how objective moral values can exist without God.
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:27 AM   #5044
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
The mechanism is called "evolution".
no kidding. Where is the empirical evidence to back up your claim ?
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:28 AM   #5045
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Have you been there ? seen it happen ?
I'm old, but not that old.

Quote:
or do you have empirical evidence ?
Tons of it. From the fossil record, and from DNA analysis.

I am also capable of following the logical argument that leads to the inescapable conclusion that evolution by natural selection is not just possible but inevitable.

Quote:
do you just believe this, because it has been told you so ?
That's what creationists do.
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:30 AM   #5046
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Which reminds me: news article demonstrating that even the largest dinosaurs were able to evolve very light, bird like bones:http://news.yahoo.com/dinosaurs-grew...154618663.html
what else do they have, rather than just empty speculations ? do you not see, that you rely mostly on unprovable guesswork ?
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:41 AM   #5047
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
please point out, how objective moral values can exist without God.
Societies simply evolve standards of conduct to help each other get along. You can't go hunt and gather if you're afraid someone is going to take the stuff from your cave while you're gone. So, everyone agrees not to take each other's stuff. It helps to know that there's stone ax with your name on it if you break the rule. The other bits of morality came about sort of the same way.
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:47 AM   #5048
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
what does one thing have to do with the other ?
The fact you have to act that question means you aren't well prepared for this discussion.
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Old 24th February 2013, 04:51 AM   #5049
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
what else do they have, rather than just empty speculations ?
DNA analysis, the fossil record, and logically valid inference.

Quote:
do you not see, that you rely mostly on unprovable guesswork ?
Again, that's what creationists do. Except without the 'mostly', and with the guesswork having been done several thousand years ago by people who knew virtually nothing about the world around them and almost certainly thought it was flat.
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:12 AM   #5050
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
hahaha..... that supposed to be a joke, or what ??!!

Lee Smolin Wrote (Three Roads, p202)

The apparently improbable values of the masses of the elementary particles and the strengths of the fundamental forces. One can estimate the probablilty that the constants in our standard theories of the elementary particles and cosmology would, were they chosen randomly, lead to a world with carbon chemistry. That probability is less than one part in 10^220. but without carbon chemistry the universe would be much less likely to form large numbers of stars massive enough to become black holes, and life would be very unlikely to exist.


Arno Penzias
(Nobel prize in physics)
“Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say ‘supernatural’) plan.”
GIBHOR, more dishonest copy pasta on your part and now to ask the questions that you refuse to answer. But it seems that you will prove that all you do is copy and paste, because you refuse to answer them, perhaps you should pray to god for understanding so you can actually address the questions and show that you are not just a parrot.

Why aren't you addressing the question?

If there are a possible infinite number of values between the current mass of the electron and twice the current mass of the electron, then there are an infinite number of possible universes based upon those values for the mass of the electron.

If there are an infinite number of universes possible with the value of the mass of the electron between its current value and twice its current value, how can you say that the value for the mass of the electron is fine tuned?

[iteration 16]
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:14 AM   #5051
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t380...cal-naturalism



that does not make philosphical naturalism automatically become true.....
That is wrong methodological naturalism doesn't care , if god exists then it is open to study by methodological naturalism.

Lying for god seems to be okay with you.
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:19 AM   #5052
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
That the universe is finely tuned to life is a scientific fact. Thats why people like Stenger, Dawkins et al try to avoid God as explanation , and present science fiction fantasies, like the multiverse hypotheses.

Why God created the universe the way he did, and not differently, will maibe be a good question i will make him, when i am in heaven
The point is this GIBHOR, the nature of Stenger's belief does not matter, you haven't actually addressed Stengers argument, because you are just a parrot, you do not understand what you copy and paste, you just copy and paste it.

So what if Stenger is a rabid atheist, his argument is what matters, and that is the part that you have failed to address, because you did not read Stenger's paper and you do not appear to understand the Fine Tuning Argument. You just copy and paste because you think that empty words will witness for Jesus. When Jesus themselves allegedly said that it is acts that matter not words, and here copy and paste makes you look like a parrot for Jesus that just recites empty words with no actual understanding of them.

Why aren't you addressing the question?

If there are a possible infinite number of values between the current mass of the electron and twice the current mass of the electron, then there are an infinite number of possible universes based upon those values for the mass of the electron.

If there are an infinite number of universes possible with the value of the mass of the electron between its current value and twice its current value, how can you say that the value for the mass of the electron is fine tuned?

[iteration 17]
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:24 AM   #5053
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t270...ommon-ancestor






http://www.icr.org/article/backwards...e-poor-design/





So what ?



proofreading, and mismatch repair show how incredibly elaborated the cell works, that is rather a argument for design........



http://creation.com/did-god-make-pathogenic-viruses


I notice that you engage in empty parrot behavior again, you did not address a single argument but just played back a tape that you found somewhere else. Is that really being a heartfelt witness for your faith or is it just empty words.

For example, why is it good design to have the blood vessels of the retina in front of the photo-receptors GIBHOR, your empty parrot quote did not answer my statement and in fact showed that yo did not read it, but that you are just a robot witness that copy and pastes without reading the posts you respond to or actual understanding.

Please stop showing that you are an empty hearted robot witness and address the questions GIBHOR:
Why is it good design to have the blood vessels of the retina in front of the photo-receptors?
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:31 AM   #5054
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Since you know, teach me

Ah but you have shown that you are unwilling to learn, your faith seems weak because you do not actually read, examine and comprehend other people's arguments. You seem to be a witness that has as much faith as any robot, you do not actually examine anything that might challenge you faith because you have blind faith. Therefore instead of having true faith you are a parrot robot.

I know many faith filled people GIBHOR, they are not afraid to actually try to understand science and its arguments. Just like the geologists in the 1700 and 1800s and many since then they have strong enough faith to understand science and still have faith. They do not hide behind concepts that are false like creation science because they have blind faith in what some misguided human told them. they have faith and have looked at the actual statements and science. They do not hide behind their false faith because they have enough faith to see them through.

Answer the questions GIBHOR show your true faith by admitting that blind faith is wrong and that science might be correct and accurate.

Why aren't you addressing the question?

If there are a possible infinite number of values between the current mass of the electron and twice the current mass of the electron, then there are an infinite number of possible universes based upon those values for the mass of the electron.

If there are an infinite number of universes possible with the value of the mass of the electron between its current value and twice its current value, how can you say that the value for the mass of the electron is fine tuned?

[iteration 18]
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:39 AM   #5055
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

Can you show that 1 and 2 are true, or do you simply expect us to agree to them because you said so?

I don't see any way you can support those assertions.

Do you have any logical reason for claiming that objective moral values cannot exist without a God?

Can you actually demonstrate that moral values exist objectively?

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
no kidding. Where is the empirical evidence to back up your claim ?

You want me to provide empirical evidence that...
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The evidence, like the information stored in the cell, homochirality etc. all point to a supernatural event. Sex, conscience, the hability of speech, etc. are all things that cannot be explained in a convincing manner through naturalism......
... can be explained by evolution?

That's a lot of info for a forum discussion, but here's a short list to get you started:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1228/1228-h/1228-h.htm
http://student.science.uva.nl/~jckas...biogenesis.pdf
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/MST-ConVar.pdf
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/papers/Review_Complexity.pdf
http://stevefrank.org/foundations/foundations.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...22519396903859
http://www.whatislife.com/about.html
http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...10/79/20120869
http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/cgi...nt/2/2/a004929
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../362/1486/1887
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../361/1474/1809
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/103/5/1194
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/96/7/3479
http://link.springer.com/book/10.100...21625-1/page/1
http://astrobiology.ucla.edu/pages/res3b.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1693102
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27927661/#.USn6iyWPcwI
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/e...ion/index.html
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/e...nce/index.html
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/e...nce/index.html
http://www.philippwesche.org/old1/es.html
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...O;2-5/abstract
http://www.pnas.org/content/97/23/12...urnalcode=pnas
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._evolution.htm
http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Evolution.htm
http://www.mpi.nl/departments/other-...netics-project
http://www.technologyreview.com/feat...cs-of-language
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.4386v1
http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/6/675.full
http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/0...the-human-past
Of course, this is just a drop in the ocean.
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:40 AM   #5056
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
might be....but i aprechiate if you correct me if i post false information.
Oh you mean like the false statements you made about Stenger's paper in two separate posts.

Where did you acknowledge those corrections GIBHOR, on two separate occasions you tried to address Stenger's paper, by acting as a blind parrot robot, in one you posted a nonsense paper that in no way actually addressed Stenger's paper. It was an empty paper because no where did it actually address and of Stenger's points in his paper. You just blindly copy and pasted it.

then you posted a link to paper about the neutron alpha capture from a source, which was another false statement, no where is Stengerns paper do they discuss the alpha neutron capture process,

But there you were being a blind robot for your faith, I doubt you will even admit it now. You are a blind robot for your faith, secure behind your walls because it seems you do not want to test your faith, you are just wanting to be a parrot witness.

Stop the copy pasta GIBHOR is makes you a poor witness and puts your arguments in a very bad light.
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:47 AM   #5057
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
I definitively would not carry out these acts, because i know these are bad things. But that is exactly the point. Why do we know that kill, rape, torture, lie, steal etc. are bad things ? Nobody needs to teach it to us. Even the unreached jungle tribes that had never contact with the modern civilisation know these are bad things.

http://www.existence-of-god.com/moral-argument.html
Wrong, yet again.
Everyone of those acts has been mandated by religious beliefs at one time or another, GIBHOR

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
yes, he permitted his own son to be killed, in order to fix your problem, and that you would not have to face the consequence for your sins, which is judgement and eternal death.
But to receive forgiveness, you need to have faith.
Ah, you're a believer in the efficacy of blood sacrifice.


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so rape, torture, kill, and cannibalize a little baby is neutral ?
What a question, GIBHOR.
You're aware people have done these things throughout history with a perfectly clear conscience?


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
That the universe is finely tuned to life is a scientific fact. ...
Wrong again, GIBHOR.
Life is finely tuned to the universe.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

The argument is logically valid; so if you want to deny the conclusion, you must reject one of the two premisses. So which one do you deny?
Wrong again, GIBHOR.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
Fail.
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Old 24th February 2013, 05:50 AM   #5058
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so where is the dishonesty ? do you know a natural mechanism to explain these phenomenas ? if so, present it.
The dishonesty is this GIBHOR:

You just copy and paste, you have not tried to understand the argument for evolution and just blindly squawk out some empty blind faith that you found somewhere else.

You hide behind your blind faith and do no actually examine the arguments you blindly robot paste against.

You do not try to understand the argument you argue against, you do not read my posts, you do not try to comprehend my posts, you do not address the points I try to make in my posts.

What you do is worse, you just see a word and then go to your robot warehouse of blind faith and then copy what someone else has said.

That is the dishonesty GIBHOR, you respond blindly to posts, you do not try to understand them or comprehend the discussion, you just see a word and then go and get something from your parrot vault of blind faith.

If you actually read some of the posts other people write, if you actually tried to understand and participate in discussion that would be honest GIBHOR.

Robot parrots make poor witnesses for their faith, they demonstrate that they are parrot robots and not faithful at all.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:04 AM   #5059
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
oh, the miraculous thing.... i know...
This is blind faith GIBHOR, this is your showing that you are not strong enough in your faith to stand in the fire, instead you make your faith look empty and your arguements look equally empty.

Here is something to discuss GIBHOR and it is about natural selection, if you have faith to stand in the fire.

Natural selection and the theory of evolution are based upon one simple principle, that members of a population which breed successfully will pass on more genetic material to the subsequent generations.


One of the arguments for natural selection is that traits which benefit reproduction will be passed on, even though they are detrimental to the individual and may not be beneficial to the population because all that matters is that it benefits reproduction.

So we have things like sickle cell anemia, it is very detrimental to someone who has the full trait. There life span is shortened and they have many health problems. Even those who have only half the sickle cell trait have a higher risk of certain complications and are more likely to die as a consequence. So the full trait is bad for the individual, the half trait is also not so good. But why then is this trait so common in some populations?

It is not good design, it does not lead to good design for the individual that has it, it is in fact an error in the gene for the creation of hemoglobin. It is detrimental to the individual that has it.

But in the presence of the malaria parasite. Those with half the trait are more likely to resist the malaria parasite and they are more likely to reproduce. Now if it was a design issue, would it not be easier to design immunity to the parasite?

natural selection predicts that even though the trait is detrimental to individuals it will be passed on because of reproductive success.

Stand in the fire GIBHOR, show that you are not a robot witness.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:07 AM   #5060
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

The argument is logically valid; so if you want to deny the conclusion, you must reject one of the two premisses. So which one do you deny?
Well one more thing for you to ignore GIBHOR, game theory.

In a game you do not want other people to just walk up and kill you, therefore by game theory one of the rules that will be established is that it is against the rules to other kill people. Why, because most players will agree to it from their own selfish interest.

One more test of your faith.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:10 AM   #5061
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
wings of birds through evolution, that is worse than magic....

and : no, i bet you just believe. You don't know how this could happen.
Squawk , empty robot parrot witness for for faith. Squawk.

Empty robot parrot does not have enough faith to read, comprehend and understand other people's statements and arguments.

Empty robot parrot witness for for faith is a poor witness and makes faith look empty and robotic.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:12 AM   #5062
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
i do not answer to posts where i am acused to be dishonest. If you do not give me the credit to be honest, it makes no sense to debate me.
I am not responsible for your acts that look dishonest GIBHOR, you are the one who acts the way that you do.

You did not half to make false empty parrot responses to my posts about Stenger, you can choose otherwise.

maybe some of hope that you will turn off the parrot robot, stop the copy and paste and actually enter the discussion.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:14 AM   #5063
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Well, no. i see it as a completely rational and logical argument. If you don't, please explain, why.
Because as has been pointed out and ignored by you, much of current theory is that the BBe came from 'we don't know', it coming from nothing, something or something else is all speculation.

We don't know.

Eternal god = eternal inflationary space time foam
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:24 AM   #5064
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
what mis-statements ?
Mostly it is a consequence of your blind copy and paste GIBHOR, I can point out multiple places where it looks as though you did not read my posts, but that you just blindly copy and pasted your answer from some one else.

IE: i asked you about the poor design of the retina, in that the blood vessels are in front of the photo receptors, you did not respond to my actual statement, but seemingly just saw the word retina and then you copy and pasted something from the ICR.

But the copy pasta did not address the actual point I made , nor did you.

Stand in the fire GIBHOR, I will be patient and my guess is that you will find your faith stronger for the seeing.

I am saying this, naturalism (method) explains the possible reason why the blood vessels in the retina are in front of the photo receptors, which is poor design.

In design one does not put supportive structures in front of optical interfaces because it interferes with the function of the optical interface. Good design tries to minimize the interference of support structures in front of the optical interface.

So I can explain why naturalism says the blood vessels are in front of the photo receptors. Can you explain how good design does?

( I should warn you, I have been dubbed a silver tongued devil)
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:25 AM   #5065
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
please point out, how objective moral values can exist without God.
Game theory states that rules which most players feel will benefit them will be agreed to.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:27 AM   #5066
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
no kidding. Where is the empirical evidence to back up your claim ?
There are aspects that are predicted by the theory of natural selection that go against the theory of good design.


Sickle cell anemia, the structure of the eye, and so on. They are predicted by natural selection and not by good design.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:28 AM   #5067
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
what else do they have, rather than just empty speculations ? do you not see, that you rely mostly on unprovable guesswork ?
The light open structure of some dinosaur bones is not guess work, it is the way that they look.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:57 AM   #5068
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm old, but not that old.

Tons of it. From the fossil record, and from DNA analysis.
.
very interesting. Thats all what this thread is about. Would you mind and present the evidence that has convinced you ?
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:58 AM   #5069
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
GIBHOR, more dishonest copy pasta
thanks. The number of posters to which i will answer, shrinks.....
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:01 AM   #5070
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Can you show that 1 and 2 are true, or do you simply expect us to agree to them because you said so?

I don't see any way you can support those assertions.

Do you have any logical reason for claiming that objective moral values cannot exist without a God?

Can you actually demonstrate that moral values exist objectively?




You want me to provide empirical evidence that...


... can be explained by evolution?

That's a lot of info for a forum discussion, but here's a short list to get you started:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1228/1228-h/1228-h.htm
http://student.science.uva.nl/~jckas...biogenesis.pdf
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/MST-ConVar.pdf
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/papers/Review_Complexity.pdf
http://stevefrank.org/foundations/foundations.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...22519396903859
http://www.whatislife.com/about.html
http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...10/79/20120869
http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/cgi...nt/2/2/a004929
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../362/1486/1887
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../361/1474/1809
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/103/5/1194
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/96/7/3479
http://link.springer.com/book/10.100...21625-1/page/1
http://astrobiology.ucla.edu/pages/res3b.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1693102
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27927661/#.USn6iyWPcwI
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/e...ion/index.html
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/e...nce/index.html
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/e...nce/index.html
http://www.philippwesche.org/old1/es.html
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...O;2-5/abstract
http://www.pnas.org/content/97/23/12...urnalcode=pnas
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._evolution.htm
http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Evolution.htm
http://www.mpi.nl/departments/other-...netics-project
http://www.technologyreview.com/feat...cs-of-language
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.4386v1
http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/6/675.full
http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/0...the-human-past
Of course, this is just a drop in the ocean.
rather than post a bunch of websites, how about you pick one issue, and present the core argument that convinces your case is true.
So we can have a closer look at it.
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:05 AM   #5071
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
rather than post a bunch of websites, how about you pick one issue, and present the core argument that convinces your case is true.
So we can have a closer look at it.
Why don't you explain the L-gulono-y-lactone oxidase pseudogene in primates?
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:16 AM   #5072
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
very interesting. Thats all what this thread is about. Would you mind and present the evidence that has convinced you ?
Plenty of people have already done so. You just ignore it or handwave it away (usually by posting a link to an article full of wilful misrepresentations and downright lies on a creationist website).
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:26 AM   #5073
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
They don't exist but what makes you think god(s) would be the source of them if they did?

Quote:
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
See #1 above. No, they don't. Can you point out a concise list of them that predates mankind?

Quote:
3. Therefore, God exists.
Seeing that you got both #1 and #2 wrong, your #3 is wrong also.

Quote:
The argument is logically valid; so if you want to deny the conclusion, you must reject one of the two premisses. So which one do you deny?
Well, no. Your argument is entirely fallacious. If you believe any of your three are correct, which one and why?
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:32 AM   #5074
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
oh, the miraculous thing.... i know...
Do try to keep up.
The "miracle" thing is your superstition. When you try to pretend that you believe naturalism to be the best explanation of your existence because of a "miracle", it makes it clear you have not been paying attention.

Or that you are willing to be dishonest (although that has already been attested to by your quote-mining tricks).

Methodological naturalism has no need of "miracles"...
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:34 AM   #5075
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

The argument is logically valid; so if you want to deny the conclusion, you must reject one of the two premisses. So which one do you deny?
...nothing like starting with your conclusion, is there?
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:39 AM   #5076
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
wings of birds through evolution, that is worse than magic....

and : no, i bet you just believe. You don't know how this could happen.
So the fact that you deny evolution because the superstition to which you are in thrall lets you feel good about being dishonest about it is the reason you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence?

Have you even considered staying on topic?
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:44 AM   #5077
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
i do not answer to posts where i am acused to be dishonest. If you do not give me the credit to be honest, it makes no sense to debate me.
So a cherry-picked, mined quote, ripped out of context, misrepresenting Dr. Sagan's position, is not dishonest?

So constantly pretending to demand "evidence", while at the same time bragging about not needing to look at the evidence, is not dishonest?

...one way to avoid accusations of dishonesty is to act honestly.
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:48 AM   #5078
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Well, no. i see it as a completely rational and logical argument. If you don't, please explain, why.
The problem with infinite regression, supported by special pleading, has been explained to you. You ignored it last time. It's still wrong (and OT).
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:49 AM   #5079
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/moral-argument

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

The argument is logically valid; so if you want to deny the conclusion, you must reject one of the two premisses. So which one do you deny?
Both, actually, much as both first require actually having a working definition of what counts as objective.


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
i do not answer to posts where i am acused to be dishonest. If you do not give me the credit to be honest, it makes no sense to debate me.
It's for the peanut gallery, mostly. The hope that you'll actually learn from your mistakes seems vanishingly remote.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
In that case, i don't see any reason to further respond you. Thats my last post to you.
I explained why I said what I said. You're just running away without presenting why I'm wrong, yet again, which is one of the major criticisms that applies to most of the points that you've tried to make and one of the major reasons why I've stated that you're not even remotely accomplishing your apparent goals. I'm quite willing to be shown that I'm wrong, for the record, though I simply don't believe that I am, based on your behavior and choice of arguments.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Well, no. i see it as a completely rational and logical argument. If you don't, please explain, why.
I have, but hey, let's go again using the longer version and I'll point out a couple of the biggest issues.

"Something cannot come from absolute nothing, therefore my version of God is true."

Issue 1: Relevance.

Very few people say that something came from absolute nothing, theist or atheist. You very certainly haven't, by claiming God as a "solution." If one or more Gods existed, given the used concept of absolute nothing, absolute nothing cannot be the case, because the existence of anything is mutually exclusive with absolute nothing, as you've defined it. Attempts to work around that problem to try to make it relevant just invoke infinite regression, which, as I recall, you've attempted to argue is impossible, in the past.

What's more, there's no good reason to conclude that absolute nothing even can potentially "exist," given the information at our disposal. That in no way, of course, removes the possibility that our universe was created, but the argument in question is trying to argue for the necessity of a specific type of deity, not the possibility of a deity of some kind. Taking these issues into account removes any semblance of validity from any attempt to use this to argue for the necessity of a deity, which renders the argument useless.

ETA: Hmm. I appear to be a bit tired, though, as I left out a significant point here. Another simple fact is that existence is a more encompassing concept than "God." Existence can exist, with or without a God, but existence always exists if a God exists. Thus, a god cannot be fundamentally necessary for existence to exist, which counters and overrules the point of the something can't come from nothing argument, regardless, and forces the concept of infinite regression upon any claims of the necessity of a creator god. No, it's not the kind of issue that can be defined around, as has been attempted. It's a logical and conceptual issue, not a definition issue.

Issue 2: Jumping to untenable conclusions.

Even if the first issue was not more than enough to invalidate it and it somehow did demonstrate that a deity had to be the case, all this argument even could be used for would be exactly that. Anything and everything else about your desired version of God would not be validated, including that it had any involvement in anything at all other than making the stuff of reality. Logically speaking, we'd be at the point where any and all other untestable and unverifiable claims about the deity in question would be held as exactly as likely as your desired version, which means that you'd be invoking special pleading in your claims. Special pleading, for the record, is fallacious and untrustworthy by its nature.
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Old 24th February 2013, 07:54 AM   #5080
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
what mis-statements ?
As a tip-of-the-iceberg example, you have used a cherry-picked out-of-context mined quote to pretend that Dr. Sagan espoused a position he did not. You have failed to repair your error.

Address that one, honestly, and we can go on to another.
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