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1st March 2013, 10:55 AM | #5481 |
I say nay!
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Nope, The default position is non belief, Unless you have some actual evidence to support your claim, at which point only then can one logically take the belief stance.
GIBHOR, Before I ask a question I want to clearly understand your position. You believe god created the universe, God is eternal with no beginning or end and thus in your words not needing of a creator. Is this correct? |
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1st March 2013, 11:32 AM | #5482 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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1st March 2013, 11:34 AM | #5483 |
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1st March 2013, 11:35 AM | #5484 |
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Reality is a theory, not a hypothesis. |
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1st March 2013, 11:40 AM | #5485 |
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From Gibhor's CARM link: "How does an atheist know that children don't naturally believe in God and have to be taught not to believe in God?"
I can tell you that from My own early childhood experience, from as early as I can remember, I didn't believe in gods at all. Even when I was reading the Bible at age 6-7 I still couldn't work out what this "God" entity in the book was supposed to be. Based on the implication that this entity was apparently watching people from some high place, in retrospect it must've been an early beta version of Ceiling Cat. |
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1st March 2013, 11:43 AM | #5486 |
I say nay!
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1st March 2013, 11:45 AM | #5487 |
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1st March 2013, 11:47 AM | #5488 |
I say nay!
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1st March 2013, 11:56 AM | #5489 |
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yes.
The Failure of Atheism to Account for Existence http://carm.org/failure-atheism-account-existence
Quote:
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1st March 2013, 11:58 AM | #5490 |
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1st March 2013, 12:00 PM | #5491 |
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1st March 2013, 12:02 PM | #5492 |
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1st March 2013, 12:03 PM | #5493 |
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1st March 2013, 12:05 PM | #5494 |
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1st March 2013, 12:05 PM | #5495 |
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1st March 2013, 12:07 PM | #5496 |
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Once you become a believer, it will radically change all your life..... to the better!!
http://www.thunderbayurc.com/Article...20For%20Me.pdf |
1st March 2013, 12:09 PM | #5497 |
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1st March 2013, 12:13 PM | #5498 |
I say nay!
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Interesting, Eternal god via unexplained magic: "Of course, It's so obvious isn't it?!" [sic] Eternal Universe via same unexplained magic: "WHAT? ARE YOU CRAZY! LOOK AT WHAT THE SCIENCE (That I will happily use when convenient) SAYS, IT CAN'T BE POSSIBLE!" [sic] The problem i'm trying to illustrate is the hypocrisy of religion, By simply taking the very same claim they present but inserting X instead of their flavor of god the claim suddenly becomes unreasonable for them to accept. |
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1st March 2013, 12:17 PM | #5499 |
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That's why religion/god(s)/Deities/Spirits where invented in the first place, People are terrified of what they don't understand and rather than explore the unknowns and gain valuable knowledge they instead insert mystical explainations and continue on in blissful ignorance.
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1st March 2013, 12:18 PM | #5500 |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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1st March 2013, 12:20 PM | #5501 |
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1st March 2013, 12:21 PM | #5502 |
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1st March 2013, 12:21 PM | #5503 |
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Atheism is not trying to account for "existence" ("existence" of what?). "Atheism" is just the view expressed by many people who say they do not believe that various Gods exist (such as the Christian God of the bible). The theory of evolution certainly accounts for Homo sapiens existence though. |
1st March 2013, 12:22 PM | #5504 |
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1st March 2013, 12:23 PM | #5505 |
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1st March 2013, 12:23 PM | #5506 |
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Yeah. It's just a huge shame I think. Instead of new discoveries and new things to learn they'd rather still be in the Dark Ages where nothing is learned and no progress made. I think the fact that we don't know everything is far more exciting and interesting, to me anyway.
Amazing though that people would rather hold on to this stuff rather than continue to learn new things. |
1st March 2013, 12:35 PM | #5507 |
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1. Why would a christian apologetics site be a reliable source about honest information about atheism?
2. The CARM article begins with an equivocation, asserting what "many atheists" say as the definitive "atheist position". 3. The CARM article then asserts the unsubstantiated opinion that the straw man they have equivocated into being is an "unsubstantiated opinion". 4. The CARM article seems to be making the claim that since we do not know that people are "not hardwired to believe in god", that the author's straw man construction of the "default position" is incorrect--since we do not know that people are not hardwired to believe in 'god', then it is incorrect not to beleive in 'god'. 5. The CARM article makes the common mistake of assuming that if people were, in fact, "hardwired" to believe in 'god', that would be evidence that 'god' existed. In fact, it would not be evidence for the existence of any 'gods', or a "god"--and it would most certainly not be an argument for the existence of the spoiled-child vengeful tantrum-throwing incompetent 'god' of the sheep-herder's and reed-cutter's bronze-age superstitions. At most, it would be evidence for the fact that people were, for whatever reason, hardwired to believe in 'gods'. After all, people are hard-wired to believe that their own children are beautiful... 6. You, personally, do not understand Russell's Teapot. Because of that, you ridicule the idea--and miss the point. I do not believe that there is a teapot orbiting the sun, out beyond Neptune. I do not have to prove there is no teapot--one who makes the claim that there is, in fact, a teapot carries the burden of proof of her assertions. I do not believe there are any 'gods'. I do not have to prove there are no 'gods', nor a 'god'--one who makes the claim that there are, in fact, any 'gods', or especially there is, in fact, any one particular 'god', carries the burden of proof. 7. You are nearly as much an atheist as any skeptic here--merely about one specific 'god' less. (That is, unless you believe in all the 'gods' of peoples' invention...) 8. All of this is still OT, unless you are making the...odd...claim that the CARM article, misleading as it is, is the reason you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence. |
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1st March 2013, 12:39 PM | #5508 |
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Consider starting an honestly-titled thread where you present evidence of the existence of such. Here, such a claim is OT...unless you are making the...odd...claim that the "intelligent powerful creator*" is the reason you believe naturalism to be the the best explanation for our existence.
*"I'm not saying it's 'god'...but it's 'god'..." |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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1st March 2013, 12:43 PM | #5509 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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1st March 2013, 12:44 PM | #5510 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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1st March 2013, 01:02 PM | #5511 |
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That's a transparent evasion. Since you claim to have studied it, tell us what context makes it a good thing to smash your teenage daughter's skull open with a rock because she had sex with her boyfriend. Please tell us under what circumstances it is not horrifically evil to do so.
By the way, do you know what we call morality that is context dependent? |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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1st March 2013, 01:09 PM | #5512 |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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1st March 2013, 01:14 PM | #5513 |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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1st March 2013, 01:33 PM | #5514 |
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Atheism isn't about accounting for the existence of the universe. The existence of the universe is currently a mystery. Saying "I don't know" is not failure, and it doesn't make any positive claim intrinsically superior.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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1st March 2013, 01:39 PM | #5515 |
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I asked specifically how an "intelligent powerful creator" is useful, in itself.
NOT how faith in such a creator is useful. I want you to answer the question directly: How is how an "intelligent powerful creator" useful an an explanation for our existence, regardless of faith? Incidentally, nothing in that article is an advantage unique to Christianity, or even religion in general. All of these things can be described and assessed better, on naturalistic terms: Sexual Morality Womens' Rights Charity and Compassion Health Care Education (especially this one!) Labour and Economics Science (especially this one, too!) Law Etc. The theological arguments contained in that document are lame and mostly outdated. Where not outdated, they make it a point to show how the current ideas are different from the old ones: leading to the conclusion that Christianity gets it values from society, anyway. (For example: The Women's Rights one.) That is only a superficial answer. A LOT of things can make people feel good. What is about an "intelligent powerful creator", specifically, that makes it feel especially good? I think it's a lazy answer. Humans have a predisposition to assume intelligent causes are behind things happening (Michael Shermer calls this "agenticity"). So, it doesn't really take any effort, at all, to just assume God is behind it all. "Intelligent creator" is the easiest, laziest answer one can come up with. Any other answer is more complicated, and prone to upset one's basic assumptions. And, ultimately, that's why it makes people "feel good". |
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1st March 2013, 01:39 PM | #5516 |
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1st March 2013, 01:48 PM | #5517 |
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Well, Gibhor, if this thread is an example of a life changed "to the better," I think I'll stick with My version of "worse."
Not only that, but I can't just up and decide to believe. That never works for Me. I find Christianity morally repulsive, its characters one-dimensional and unsympathetic, and its stories just plain silly. I mean, really: A god has to sacrifice its own kin in order to forgive someone else on account of a thought-crime committed in total ignorance of the law by two other people, along with Grand Theft Magic Fruit, done at the behest of a Talking Snake™ who was just trying to be helpful and turn them into gods just like their dad? Já, riiiight... |
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1st March 2013, 02:05 PM | #5518 |
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Well a more complete explanation is that people favor a creator because it reflects the way they grew up. There was a father and a mother figure that took care of you and had superior knowledge so when people look for gods they replicate that experience. Father is a common terms for god in many religions and the Mother figure is prominent also. The god/human relationship is often described in parental terms and I don't think they mean this as a metaphor.
Summary: People believe in god because of a need for a father/mother figure. |
1st March 2013, 02:12 PM | #5519 |
a carbon based life-form
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tsig=talking snake in the grass
That's true, all my fellow gods wanted to keep the man and women ignorant so as to have free labor in the garden I thought that we owed it to our creation to give them knowledge, funny thing I told the truth yet mankind fell on their knees to the Ones who hated them. It really poisoned my relationship with the Rest. No good deed goes unpunished. |
1st March 2013, 02:45 PM | #5520 |
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