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Old 1st March 2013, 02:56 PM   #5521
joobz
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Since the strong atheist claims, most probably no God exists,
Strong atheism claims NO GOD(S) EXIST.
weak atheism claims most probably no god exists.


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
its upon him to present positive arguments for his claim.
Wrong burden of proof. I am no more obligated to support the position that gods don't exist as I am to say that unicorns don't exist.
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
So far, the attempt to convince me has miserably failed.
That isn't the failing of others but rather your outdated science and notions of reality.

as I said, science as and will continue to learn more.
You are intellectually stuck.
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Old 1st March 2013, 03:00 PM   #5522
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
yes.

The Failure of Atheism to Account for Existence

http://carm.org/failure-atheism-account-existence
except, of course, for the fact that time started with the universe. So in the realm of time it is true to say the universe has always existed.


I know I have informed you of this before.
The fact that you ignore it instead of addressing it is further evidence of your intellectual stagnation.
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
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Old 1st March 2013, 03:03 PM   #5523
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Originally Posted by foster zygote
By the way, GIBHOR, I'd still like to know what temporal or cultural context would make it morally good to murder you daughter for having sex, or kill a friend or family member who suggests that you join another religion. I'd also like to know how this context dependent morality would not be, by definition, subjective.

You said I didn't have a clue, but I'd very much like one. So please, give us a clue.
study the context of the reported situation, and you will find out.
So you believe there exists a setting in which it is moral for a father to kill his daughter for having sex before marriage?

please make this point clear.
Yes or no.
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Old 1st March 2013, 03:10 PM   #5524
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Once you become a believer, it will radically change all your life..... to the better!!

http://www.thunderbayurc.com/Article...20For%20Me.pdf
The link you provided represents wishywashy arguments. benefits of christianity in the abstract.

Let's get to brass tacks and talk about how things are better with that vs. naturalism.

Here is a list of events in 2012 alone that were gained by assuming naturalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_science

Provide an equivalent list of achievements gained by presuming a supernaturalism.
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:08 PM   #5525
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I still want to know how supernaturalism explains our existence considering all of existence obeys natural laws. If a supernatural being is the explanation for abiogenesis did the being use natural means for it? Or did he violate laws to do it? Even artificial sequences (whatever that means) of genes are made through naturalistic processes so even if that's what you propose that evidence only for naturalism, not supernaturalism
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:15 PM   #5526
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://carm.org/atheism-default-position

Quote:
Many atheists claim that atheism is the default position. In other words, they claim that when persons are born, they are naturally atheists and that it is only through indoctrination that they become theists. But, this claim is nothing more then an unsubstantiated opinion. How does an atheist know that people are not hardwired to believe in God? How does an atheist know that children don't naturally believe in God and have to be taught not to believe in God?

If the atheist says that it must be a cognitive choice to believe in God, then again we have to ask how the atheist knows this. People believe in things without really understanding why and often times they're surprised at what they do believe in naturally.
Even if this were true in spirit, which it doesn't even appear to be all that close to in reality, it would still be completely irrelevant to the question that was being dealt with. Again, even philosophical naturalism can, in fact, be theistic in nature, thus, arguing against atheism in any form will not even be remotely useful.

That's beside the simple fact that completely fallacious reasoning is being employed at the base of it that would remove any usefulness from this argument, even if it were otherwise true and relevant.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
yes.

The Failure of Atheism to Account for Existence

http://carm.org/failure-atheism-account-existence
You realize that the points raised in this quote appear to already have been dealt with in this thread?
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:26 PM   #5527
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Since the strong atheist claims, most probably no God exists, its upon him to present positive arguments for his claim. So far, the attempt to convince me has miserably failed.
Who exactly is that in this thread?
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:28 PM   #5528
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I am only thinking of the more philosophical ideas in theology, or the more theological ideas in philosophy.

When it comes to existence everything is speculation. Materialism can't go there without delving into speculative forms of philosophy and if one goes there one ends up examining our intellectual limitations and what we can't say about existence.
Except you have zero evidence of anything other than materialism, zero, zilch, zip, nada, niente, big fat zero.
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:29 PM   #5529
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
You're wrong, I am thinking of what mechanism results in the existence we know and which mechanism enables it to persist as we know it. Materialism can't describe these mechanisms.

This is so obvious when one realises that science can't tell us what energy/space/time/matter/being/now/existing etc... is, or how it all occurs. All it can do is describe what it discovers.
So what, you have evidence of something else?


No you don't
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:30 PM   #5530
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Gibhor -

Once you plug into REALITY, and accept things as they are, and accept responsibility for your own actions, without further reward or compensation, your life will not only be radically different. You will have matured, enormously.

Life will truly become, precious.
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Old 1st March 2013, 04:33 PM   #5531
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
i have not ignored it, but answered accordingly. Its not my fault, if atheism is a failed hypotheses so far.......
I forgot you asserted the fine tuning argument but don't understand it beyond SQUAWK for Jesus.
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Old 1st March 2013, 05:07 PM   #5532
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Gibhor -

Are you saying you don't believe in science?!?!

Seriously?

Either you believe in science, or you don't.

If you want to say sentences to me like, "God made the Earth 29 years ago, out of Billy Graham's stool", or, Everytime you take the morning after pill, Satan, has two orgasms.", then you just go ahead and stay away from Dr. Syringey O'Medicine, MD, from here on out, until you die.

Because, you know that pill that made your strep throat go away?

Science invented that!

For you.

Hey! Why don't you just pray for God to take care of that root canal?

I'll tell you why.

Because, God didn't go to Dental School, because Dental Schools don't admit people who DON'T EXIST!

Excerpt from: How to be a Person, The Stranger's Guide to College, sex, Intoxicants, Tacos and Life Itself. By Lindy West, Dan Savage, Christopher Frizzelle and Bethany Jean Clement.
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Old 1st March 2013, 06:29 PM   #5533
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Regarding this idea that materialism "can't explain our existence"...

Okay then: What ELSE is supposed to do so?!
a intelligent powerful creator
Okay, bring out this "intelligent powerful creator" and have it explain our existence, please.

ETA:
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Its not my fault, if atheism is a failed hypotheses so far.......
Atheism isn't a hypothesis, it's a position on belief in God. Unless you're using "atheism" as simile for "naturalism", in which case it still isn't a hypothesis, but an epistemological philosophy.
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Old 1st March 2013, 06:50 PM   #5534
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
yes.

The Failure of Atheism to Account for Existence

http://carm.org/failure-atheism-account-existence
Quote:
If the atheist said the universe has always existed, that doesn’t work either because that would mean the universe was infinitely old. If it is infinitely old then why hasn’t it run out of useable energy by now as the 2nd law of thermodynamics would state.

There are ways around this. A cyclical universe that ends in a "big crunch" singularity before restarting with a "big bang" would get around this because the known laws of physics don't apply within singularities.

An infinitely recursive universe where a universe expands at a increasing rate until space itself becomes so rarefied that it triggers the formation of a new big-bang inside the remnants of the old universe wouldn't conflict with the second law of thermodynamics, because it's no longer a closed system.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Quote:
Also, in order to get to the present in an infinitely old universe, an infinite amount of time would have to be crossed. But, it is impossible to cross an infinite amount of time to get to now.
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Quote:
If the atheist says that matter and/or energy have somehow eternally existed before the universe, just in different forms, then the same issue of crossing an infinite amount of time to get to now would negate that idea.
An infinite amount of time since when? This argument makes no sense.

ETA: Plus there's the problem of assuming that the apparent passage of time is more than just an illusion. It could very well be that all moments of time exist simultaneously, but since each moment of time is a logical extrapolation of the one "before", everyone at every point in time would have memories of "prior" moments, including the memories remembering "prior" moments, but no memories of subsequent moments, and so it would seem to them that time was "passing".
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Old 1st March 2013, 07:00 PM   #5535
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
If it is infinitely old then why hasn’t it run out of useable energy by now as the 2nd law of thermodynamics would state
It's always amusing when theists imply that the universe is obligated to obey the statements we humans have labeled laws.
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Old 1st March 2013, 07:12 PM   #5536
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://carm.org/atheism-default-position

Quote:
Many atheists claim that atheism is the default position. In other words, they claim that when persons are born, they are naturally atheists and that it is only through indoctrination that they become theists. But, this claim is nothing more then an unsubstantiated opinion. How does an atheist know that people are not hardwired to believe in God? How does an atheist know that children don't naturally believe in God and have to be taught not to believe in God?

It can be experimentally verified. Simply raise a child without any religious indoctrination and see if they start believing on their own. In fact, uncontrolled experiments of this nature are happening in millions of households around the world.

I myself was raised without any religious teaching. No church services, no prayer, nothing. I wasn't taught that God didn't exist either, religion was just a subject that never came up. The end result, I never felt the slightest inclination to believe. By brother and sister don't seem to hold any religious belief either.

And in cased you missed it, Astreja and Nay_Sayer have already reported never having had belief either.

It's not an "unsubstantiated opinion", it's a simple fact. People who are not taught to believe in God as children tend not to believe in God later in life.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Quote:
If the atheist says that it must be a cognitive choice to believe in God, then again we have to ask how the atheist knows this. People believe in things without really understanding why and often times they're surprised at what they do believe in naturally.
I doubt most atheists would claim that it's a "cognitive choice" to believe in God. Children indoctrinated to believe at an early age aren't given a choice in the matter. In fact, I doubt that anyone has much "choice" in what they believe, as beliefs are extensions of how a person perceives and understands the world.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 12:54 AM   #5537
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Like when you were showed different ways new information can be added to a genome, then obstinately insisted that you could not see it?


Atheism is not an hypothesis. Your god is an hypothesis.
It's not even that much.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 02:35 AM   #5538
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
An infinite amount of time since when? This argument makes no sense.
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....

Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 02:38 AM   #5539
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Originally Posted by deaman View Post
Gibhor -

Once you plug into REALITY, and accept things as they are, and accept responsibility for your own actions, without further reward or compensation, your life will not only be radically different. You will have matured, enormously.

Life will truly become, precious.
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 03:03 AM   #5540
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
Are you a member of the Anti Cruelty To Amoebas Society?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:26 AM   #5541
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
I myself was raised without any religious teaching. No church services, no prayer, nothing. I wasn't taught that God didn't exist either, religion was just a subject that never came up. The end result, I never felt the slightest inclination to believe. By brother and sister don't seem to hold any religious belief either.

And in cased you missed it, Astreja and Nay_Sayer have already reported never having had belief either.
[delurk]

Same here. No indoctrination => no belief.
And reading the Goat Herders' Camp Fire Tales cover to cover did not lead to belief, either. Astreja covered that admirably, as usual.

[relurk]
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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:31 AM   #5542
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
Are you?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:31 AM   #5543
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?
We don't know. That is an acceptable answer.

Some, of course, feel compelled to make up answers, or believe in answers that were made-up by others. They offer only the strength of their personal conviction as evidence that they are correct. That their beliefs fall apart under scrutiny, or fail to provide an explanation for anything, doesn't slow them down for a minute. It's just the darndest thing.

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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:38 AM   #5544
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....

Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?
You still don't get it. There is no "before" the Big Bang. It is not a discrete moment in the flow of time that divides an eternity of nothingness before the universe from an eternity of the universe existing. Is the North Pole the "beginning" of the Earth?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:41 AM   #5545
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
Even though you missed the point of the post to which you were responding, I would like to ask you to explain the difference in value between the life of a young woman who has sex with her boyfriend today, and the life of a young woman who had sex with her boyfriend in ancient Israel. Can you do that?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:41 AM   #5546
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
Yes it is shockingly easy. A human being has a more complicated neurological system which allows it to experience, remember, and fear pain and suffering. An amoeba does not.

Your "Gotcha" questions continue to fail to actually "get" anyone.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:51 AM   #5547
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....
No, I'm objecting to the argument that if the universe were infinitely old, an infinite time must have first passed to reach the present.

An infinite amount of time since when? What point of time are you measuring from? Can't be from the start of the universe, because in this situation there isn't one.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:03 AM   #5548
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
You should have an easy time to explain the difference between "having no other god before yours" and murdering your daughter for having pre-marital sex. Are you moral?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:45 AM   #5549
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....

Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?
...and this has...what? to do with why you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:53 AM   #5550
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Originally Posted by Femke View Post
[delurk]

Same here. No indoctrination => no belief.
And reading the Goat Herders' Camp Fire Tales cover to cover did not lead to belief, either. Astreja covered that admirably, as usual.

[relurk]
Me too.

I was brought up by atheist parents, although my maternal grandfather was a Presbyterian minister. As is common in the UK, I learned about many religions and gods at school, and I have both believers and atheists as good friends. I have never believed that any god existed, not even at the darkest moments of my life nor the happiest. I've read the Bible cover to cover many times. If humans are hard-wired for god-belief, as GIBHOR's link so erroneously states, those of us brought up with information but no indoctrination should believe in one (or more) of the gods about which they have learned. But that is simply not the case.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 08:12 AM   #5551
TjW
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....

Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?
Every true believer knows that: The Great Arkleseizure sneezed.
The universe:
'snot a creation of the Judeo-Christian God.
'snot a creation of the Big Bang.
It's not.

And at The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief, you will believe, but it will be Too Late.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:17 AM   #5552
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
Every true believer knows that: The Great Arkleseizure sneezed.
I don't think that theory is widely accepted outside of Viltvodle VI.



I think the least probable theory is that life came about as a consequence of the propulsion system in an Infinite Improbability drive. But due to the quasi-reciprocal and circular nature of Improbability calculations, this is probably most likely what happened.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:23 AM   #5553
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....

Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?
Who or what triggered god into action ?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:35 AM   #5554
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I don't think that theory is widely accepted outside of Viltvodle VI.



I think the least probable theory is that life came about as a consequence of the propulsion system in an Infinite Improbability drive. But due to the quasi-reciprocal and circular nature of Improbability calculations, this is probably most likely what happened.
Tea?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:40 AM   #5555
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Who or what triggered god into action ?
...and who or what triggered THAT into action...

...and who or what triggered THAT into action...

...and who or what triggered THAT into action...

...and who or what triggered THAT into action...

...etc...

Will you answer this, GIBHOR, without special pleading?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:58 AM   #5556
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
As usual, your response make absolutely no sense.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 10:01 AM   #5557
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....

Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?
The honest truth is no one in this thread knows for sure, there are only theories.

Don't lie and say you know, because you don't. You simply suspect it might be a certain way.

But, science has answers with verifiable evidence.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 10:13 AM   #5558
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
fully agree. Yourself admit that time must have had a beginning.....

Who or what triggered the first momento of time into action ?


This has been explained to you dozens of times in this thread.

A large number of papers have described how our universe may have come into existence from what is effectively “nothing” except the Vacuum State Energy.

You can read simplified descriptions of that in several popular level books from the original authors, inc. the books by Stephen Hawking (The Grand Design), Alex Vilenkin (Many Worlds in One), and Lawrence Krauss (A Universe from Nothing).

You do not actually need any specific cause for a universe to appear from the emptiness of the Vacuum State, which is the minimum possible existing state of our universe. It happens inevitably for reasons entirely analogous to the formation of virtual particle pairs from the vacuum.

If you want more detail than has been given in this thread, then just get one of those books and you can read the explanations for yourself.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 10:18 AM   #5559
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
You do not actually need any specific cause for a universe to appear from the emptiness of the Vacuum State, which is the minimum possible existing state of our universe.
how do you know ?


Quote:
It happens inevitably for reasons entirely analogous to the formation of virtual particle pairs from the vacuum.
i have done so.


John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment

Quote:
, ". . . the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440). The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 10:22 AM   #5560
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I don't think that theory is widely accepted outside of Viltvodle VI.



I think the least probable theory is that life came about as a consequence of the propulsion system in an Infinite Improbability drive. But due to the quasi-reciprocal and circular nature of Improbability calculations, this is probably most likely what happened.
Heathen unbeliever!

I would say, "Kill the heathen unbeliever!", but what would be the point?
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