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1st March 2013, 02:56 PM | #5521 |
Tergiversator
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Strong atheism claims NO GOD(S) EXIST.
weak atheism claims most probably no god exists. Wrong burden of proof. I am no more obligated to support the position that gods don't exist as I am to say that unicorns don't exist. That isn't the failing of others but rather your outdated science and notions of reality. as I said, science as and will continue to learn more. You are intellectually stuck. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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1st March 2013, 03:00 PM | #5522 |
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except, of course, for the fact that time started with the universe. So in the realm of time it is true to say the universe has always existed.
I know I have informed you of this before. The fact that you ignore it instead of addressing it is further evidence of your intellectual stagnation. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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1st March 2013, 03:03 PM | #5523 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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1st March 2013, 03:10 PM | #5524 |
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The link you provided represents wishywashy arguments. benefits of christianity in the abstract.
Let's get to brass tacks and talk about how things are better with that vs. naturalism. Here is a list of events in 2012 alone that were gained by assuming naturalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_science Provide an equivalent list of achievements gained by presuming a supernaturalism. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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1st March 2013, 04:08 PM | #5525 |
Philosopher
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I still want to know how supernaturalism explains our existence considering all of existence obeys natural laws. If a supernatural being is the explanation for abiogenesis did the being use natural means for it? Or did he violate laws to do it? Even artificial sequences (whatever that means) of genes are made through naturalistic processes so even if that's what you propose that evidence only for naturalism, not supernaturalism
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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1st March 2013, 04:15 PM | #5526 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
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Even if this were true in spirit, which it doesn't even appear to be all that close to in reality, it would still be completely irrelevant to the question that was being dealt with. Again, even philosophical naturalism can, in fact, be theistic in nature, thus, arguing against atheism in any form will not even be remotely useful.
That's beside the simple fact that completely fallacious reasoning is being employed at the base of it that would remove any usefulness from this argument, even if it were otherwise true and relevant. You realize that the points raised in this quote appear to already have been dealt with in this thread? |
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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1st March 2013, 04:26 PM | #5527 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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1st March 2013, 04:28 PM | #5528 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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1st March 2013, 04:29 PM | #5529 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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1st March 2013, 04:30 PM | #5530 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Gibhor -
Once you plug into REALITY, and accept things as they are, and accept responsibility for your own actions, without further reward or compensation, your life will not only be radically different. You will have matured, enormously. Life will truly become, precious. |
1st March 2013, 04:33 PM | #5531 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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1st March 2013, 05:07 PM | #5532 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Gibhor -
Are you saying you don't believe in science?!?! Seriously? Either you believe in science, or you don't. If you want to say sentences to me like, "God made the Earth 29 years ago, out of Billy Graham's stool", or, Everytime you take the morning after pill, Satan, has two orgasms.", then you just go ahead and stay away from Dr. Syringey O'Medicine, MD, from here on out, until you die. Because, you know that pill that made your strep throat go away? Science invented that! For you. Hey! Why don't you just pray for God to take care of that root canal? I'll tell you why. Because, God didn't go to Dental School, because Dental Schools don't admit people who DON'T EXIST! Excerpt from: How to be a Person, The Stranger's Guide to College, sex, Intoxicants, Tacos and Life Itself. By Lindy West, Dan Savage, Christopher Frizzelle and Bethany Jean Clement. |
1st March 2013, 06:29 PM | #5533 |
Daydreamer
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Okay, bring out this "intelligent powerful creator" and have it explain our existence, please.
ETA: Atheism isn't a hypothesis, it's a position on belief in God. Unless you're using "atheism" as simile for "naturalism", in which case it still isn't a hypothesis, but an epistemological philosophy. |
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"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim |
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1st March 2013, 06:50 PM | #5534 |
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There are ways around this. A cyclical universe that ends in a "big crunch" singularity before restarting with a "big bang" would get around this because the known laws of physics don't apply within singularities. An infinitely recursive universe where a universe expands at a increasing rate until space itself becomes so rarefied that it triggers the formation of a new big-bang inside the remnants of the old universe wouldn't conflict with the second law of thermodynamics, because it's no longer a closed system. An infinite amount of time since when? This argument makes no sense. ETA: Plus there's the problem of assuming that the apparent passage of time is more than just an illusion. It could very well be that all moments of time exist simultaneously, but since each moment of time is a logical extrapolation of the one "before", everyone at every point in time would have memories of "prior" moments, including the memories remembering "prior" moments, but no memories of subsequent moments, and so it would seem to them that time was "passing". |
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"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim |
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1st March 2013, 07:00 PM | #5535 |
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1st March 2013, 07:12 PM | #5536 |
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It can be experimentally verified. Simply raise a child without any religious indoctrination and see if they start believing on their own. In fact, uncontrolled experiments of this nature are happening in millions of households around the world. I myself was raised without any religious teaching. No church services, no prayer, nothing. I wasn't taught that God didn't exist either, religion was just a subject that never came up. The end result, I never felt the slightest inclination to believe. By brother and sister don't seem to hold any religious belief either. And in cased you missed it, Astreja and Nay_Sayer have already reported never having had belief either. It's not an "unsubstantiated opinion", it's a simple fact. People who are not taught to believe in God as children tend not to believe in God later in life. I doubt most atheists would claim that it's a "cognitive choice" to believe in God. Children indoctrinated to believe at an early age aren't given a choice in the matter. In fact, I doubt that anyone has much "choice" in what they believe, as beliefs are extensions of how a person perceives and understands the world. |
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"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim |
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2nd March 2013, 12:54 AM | #5537 |
Meandering fecklessly
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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2nd March 2013, 02:35 AM | #5538 |
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2nd March 2013, 02:38 AM | #5539 |
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2nd March 2013, 03:03 AM | #5540 |
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2nd March 2013, 06:26 AM | #5541 |
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Epiphanette (a very small epiphany): that kind of tingly, excited feeling of realizing that you were wrong, and that you have to adjust your world view accordingly. - With thanks to Weak Kitten and Blue Sock Monkey. I am 100% confident all professional psychics and mediums are frauds. The rest might be sincere but are still deluded. |
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2nd March 2013, 06:31 AM | #5542 |
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2nd March 2013, 06:31 AM | #5543 |
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We don't know. That is an acceptable answer.
Some, of course, feel compelled to make up answers, or believe in answers that were made-up by others. They offer only the strength of their personal conviction as evidence that they are correct. That their beliefs fall apart under scrutiny, or fail to provide an explanation for anything, doesn't slow them down for a minute. It's just the darndest thing. |
2nd March 2013, 06:38 AM | #5544 |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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2nd March 2013, 06:41 AM | #5545 |
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Even though you missed the point of the post to which you were responding, I would like to ask you to explain the difference in value between the life of a young woman who has sex with her boyfriend today, and the life of a young woman who had sex with her boyfriend in ancient Israel. Can you do that?
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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2nd March 2013, 06:41 AM | #5546 |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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2nd March 2013, 06:51 AM | #5547 |
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No, I'm objecting to the argument that if the universe were infinitely old, an infinite time must have first passed to reach the present.
An infinite amount of time since when? What point of time are you measuring from? Can't be from the start of the universe, because in this situation there isn't one. |
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"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim |
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2nd March 2013, 07:03 AM | #5548 |
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2nd March 2013, 07:45 AM | #5549 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd March 2013, 07:53 AM | #5550 |
Winking at the Moon
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Me too.
I was brought up by atheist parents, although my maternal grandfather was a Presbyterian minister. As is common in the UK, I learned about many religions and gods at school, and I have both believers and atheists as good friends. I have never believed that any god existed, not even at the darkest moments of my life nor the happiest. I've read the Bible cover to cover many times. If humans are hard-wired for god-belief, as GIBHOR's link so erroneously states, those of us brought up with information but no indoctrination should believe in one (or more) of the gods about which they have learned. But that is simply not the case. |
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Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
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2nd March 2013, 08:12 AM | #5551 |
Penultimate Amazing
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2nd March 2013, 09:17 AM | #5552 |
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I don't think that theory is widely accepted outside of Viltvodle VI.
I think the least probable theory is that life came about as a consequence of the propulsion system in an Infinite Improbability drive. But due to the quasi-reciprocal and circular nature of Improbability calculations, this is probably most likely what happened. |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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2nd March 2013, 09:23 AM | #5553 |
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2nd March 2013, 09:35 AM | #5554 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd March 2013, 09:40 AM | #5555 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd March 2013, 09:58 AM | #5556 |
Penultimate Amazing
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2nd March 2013, 10:01 AM | #5557 |
Penultimate Amazing
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2nd March 2013, 10:13 AM | #5558 |
Philosopher
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This has been explained to you dozens of times in this thread. A large number of papers have described how our universe may have come into existence from what is effectively “nothing” except the Vacuum State Energy. You can read simplified descriptions of that in several popular level books from the original authors, inc. the books by Stephen Hawking (The Grand Design), Alex Vilenkin (Many Worlds in One), and Lawrence Krauss (A Universe from Nothing). You do not actually need any specific cause for a universe to appear from the emptiness of the Vacuum State, which is the minimum possible existing state of our universe. It happens inevitably for reasons entirely analogous to the formation of virtual particle pairs from the vacuum. If you want more detail than has been given in this thread, then just get one of those books and you can read the explanations for yourself. |
2nd March 2013, 10:18 AM | #5559 |
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2nd March 2013, 10:22 AM | #5560 |
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