IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 2nd March 2013, 11:02 AM   #5561
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 33,127
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
how do you know ?
Since you've recognized the futility of your failed arguments regarding the morally bankrupt Bible, are you also realizing why you can't support your arguments about god(s) existing and are giving up entirely?
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 11:26 AM   #5562
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
how do you know ?




i have done so.


John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment
Are you, then, claiming that Barrow and Tipler's special pleading about their concept of quantum vacuua is the reason you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence?

You keep trying to sidestep the inevitable infinite regression.

If nothing exists without a cause, then your "uncaused cause*" cannot, by your definition, exist.

If anything can exist without a cause, then the idea of 'god' (especially, as has been pointed out, the incompetent, vengeful, deceitful, spoiled child 'god' of the reed-cutters and sheep-herders, perceptible only through the exercise of proper faith**) is a poor substitute for observed reality.

The so-called "principle" that "whatever begins to exist has a cause" (any citations for that "principle"?) is simply special pleading at its most blatant; a way to pretend that your 'god' (out of all the 'gods') is somehow different from everything else, without demonstrating it in any way.

*("I'm not sayin' it's 'god'...but it's 'god'...)

**I"If you believe, you will perceive; if you perceive not, it is your belief, not 'god', that is deficient...")
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 11:47 AM   #5563
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by deaman View Post
The honest truth is no one in this thread knows for sure, there are only theories.

Don't lie and say you know, because you don't. You simply suspect it might be a certain way.

But, science has answers with verifiable evidence.
you contradict yourself
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 11:51 AM   #5564
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you contradict yourself
You equivocate...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 12:05 PM   #5565
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you contradict yourself
Not that you'll listen.

What he meant was no one knows about the existence of god, Though as far as I'm concerned there's more then enough evidence to render the god hypothesis null and void.

As far as science having answers, He is absolutely correct, The advancements science has given us are almost uncountable.

There is no hypocrisy in science, It is the tool of which we use to find the answers but we do not have all the answers yet.
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 12:06 PM   #5566
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you should have a easy time to explain the difference in value between a human life, and a life of a amoeba ? and : are you a vegetarian ?
I can, There is no difference, life is life, it's only our inflated ego as a species that makes us think were any more special or important then say a zebra.
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 12:14 PM   #5567
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you contradict yourself
No he doesn't. The fact that science can't (yet?) answer a particular question doesn't mean that it hasn't successfully answered plenty more, using verifiable evidence to do so.

Science doesn't know everything, it probably never will, but that's not an excuse to wilfully ignore what it does know.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 12:15 PM   #5568
IanS
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,692
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
You do not actually need any specific cause for a universe to appear from the emptiness of the Vacuum State, which is the minimum possible existing state of our universe.

It happens inevitably for reasons entirely analogous to the formation of virtual particle pairs from the vacuum.
how do you know ?

What do you mean “KNOW? What sort of silly misguided question is that?

We are not talking about anyone “knowing”. We are not talking about certainty. I already explicitly said to you above that those descriptions are the product of various recent models of the BB, as described in the books and papers that I just listed for you!



Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
It happens inevitably for reasons entirely analogous to the formation of virtual particle pairs from the vacuum.
i have done so.


You have “done so” what?? What have you “done so“ ?? Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with the quote you just highlighted. I think you must imagine you are talking about something else.


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post


John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment
Quote:
, ". . . the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440). The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause.



Who said the fluctuations are literally “nothing”? I did not say that. What I just said above (about vaccum fluctuation) is no different from what Tippler and Barrow say in your quote. So what actually is your objection?

The problem area in your quote is that Tippler and Barrow, who afaik are well known creationists, jump to an unwarranted conclusion that because vacuum fluctuations probably exist, therefore they conclude that such fluctuations are quote " not an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause " ... however their mistake there is that they suddenly assume, without any explanation, that the fluctuations must have a "beginning" ...

... the fluctuation don’t have a "beginning" in any sense of "Time". Instead each fluctuation represents the transient appearance of space-time forming from a timeless vacuum energy.

The fluctuations occur because of the Uncertainty Principle. If you have a vacuum energy, then you can't avoid the fluctuations. That's the basis of quantum mechanics. That’s why there is always “something rather than nothing”.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 01:10 PM   #5569
joobz
Tergiversator
 
joobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
you contradict yourself
Those statements aren't a contradiction.

As an example:
A contradiction for someone to claim that there is a objective morality.
and then go on to explain how murdering a daughter for having premarital sex was moral 1000 years ago, but not today.


That is a contradiction.
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser
joobz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 02:37 PM   #5570
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
If you have a vacuum energy, then you can't avoid the fluctuations.
Thats a BIG if.....

according to the Big Bang model, energy was created at the Big Bang. To create a vacuum energy field, you need pre existing energy.......
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 02:39 PM   #5571
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I can, There is no difference, life is life, it's only our inflated ego as a species that makes us think were any more special or important then say a zebra.
so why then do you think its morally acceptable to kill a cow, to eath its meat, and not be a cannibal , like a spider female, which eats its male, after the sexual act ?
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 02:50 PM   #5572
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so why then do you think its morally acceptable to kill a cow, to eath its meat, and not be a cannibal , like a spider female, which eats its male, after the sexual act ?
Yep, I love meat, I've eaten whole hog on a few occasions.

Morality plays no role in my decision to kill something and then eat it.

I'm not a vegetarian in case you're assuming that for some reason.
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 03:47 PM   #5573
gentlehorse
Master Poster
 
gentlehorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so why then do you think its morally acceptable to kill a cow, to eath its meat, and not be a cannibal , like a spider female, which eats its male, after the sexual act ?
The only reason I think something is morally wrong is because I don't like it. The behavior of spiders doesn't enter into the equation.
gentlehorse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 03:47 PM   #5574
deaman
Penultimate Amazing
 
deaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 12,229
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
What do you mean “KNOW? What sort of silly misguided question is that?

We are not talking about anyone “knowing”. We are not talking about certainty. I already explicitly said to you above that those descriptions are the product of various recent models of the BB, as described in the books and papers that I just listed for you!







You have “done so” what?? What have you “done so“ ?? Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with the quote you just highlighted. I think you must imagine you are talking about something else.




Quote:
, ". . . the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440). The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause.



Who said the fluctuations are literally “nothing”? I did not say that. What I just said above (about vaccum fluctuation) is no different from what Tippler and Barrow say in your quote. So what actually is your objection?

The problem area in your quote is that Tippler and Barrow, who afaik are well known creationists, jump to an unwarranted conclusion that because vacuum fluctuations probably exist, therefore they conclude that such fluctuations are quote " not an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause " ... however their mistake there is that they suddenly assume, without any explanation, that the fluctuations must have a "beginning" ...

... the fluctuation don’t have a "beginning" in any sense of "Time". Instead each fluctuation represents the transient appearance of space-time forming from a timeless vacuum energy.

The fluctuations occur because of the Uncertainty Principle. If you have a vacuum energy, then you can't avoid the fluctuations. That's the basis of quantum mechanics. That’s why there is always “something rather than nothing”.
I do not think Gibhor is capable of grasping what you are saying. And I am not saying he is dumb or something, I really mean I don't think he is getting the picture your painting, because it is just not a concept, graspable to him.

I myself have a bit of a hard time, understanding all the science, but then I have nothing to prove, and I am alright with being wrong about something, or even not knowing something at all.

Not knowing, puts me in an "open mind" position, to learn.

Last edited by deaman; 2nd March 2013 at 03:49 PM.
deaman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 03:53 PM   #5575
deaman
Penultimate Amazing
 
deaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 12,229
I eat what I was taught to eat.

I eat what's available.

I eat what tastes good to me.

No morals involved.
deaman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:17 PM   #5576
GIBHOR
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,626
Originally Posted by deaman View Post
I eat what I was taught to eat.

I eat what's available.

I eat what tastes good to me.

No morals involved.
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
No morals involved......
GIBHOR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:18 PM   #5577
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,428
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Thats a BIG if.....

according to the Big Bang model, energy was created at the Big Bang. To create a vacuum energy field, you need pre existing energy.......
Wrong.


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so why then do you think its morally acceptable to kill a cow, to eath its meat, and not be a cannibal , like a spider female, which eats its male, after the sexual act ?
Because a cow isn't a human being? What kind of idiocy is this? Do you know what the word 'cannibal' means?
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned.
-Shepard Book
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:22 PM   #5578
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
No morals involved......
Rather like chicken, if you wish to know.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:25 PM   #5579
Lowpro
Philosopher
 
Lowpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Thats a BIG if.....

according to the Big Bang model, energy was created at the Big Bang. To create a vacuum energy field, you need pre existing energy.......
Nooooooooooooo that's not the big bang model -.-
__________________
"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers
Lowpro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:33 PM   #5580
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 10,678
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Thats a BIG if.....

according to the Big Bang model, energy was created at the Big Bang. To create a vacuum energy field, you need pre existing energy.......
Maybe. Very probably not, though. Regardless, for each bit of energy "created,"* there would be an equal and opposite amount of energy, along the lines, mathemathically, of 1 + -1 = 0.

It's not that pre-existing energy is required, at all, just that reality itself "exists" in the way that it's been observed to do. It's actually a far, far better solution, logically-speaking, than an incredibly complex, intelligent being that created everything. The assumption of the necessity of an intelligent being demands the invocation of infinite regression, to the point that special pleading cannot actually solve the issue. A model like the one presented, on the other hand, which explains complexity as the result of emergent systems, does not tend to demand the invocation of infinite regression, as that concept becomes irrelevant by the nature of the model. At best, it's "possible" that such might be relevant in the specific case, but that we have no good reason to assume that it definitely is relevant. The God hypothesis, on the other hand, unavoidably demands infinite regression, special pleading or not.

* - It's distinctly possible that I'm misrepresenting the concepts in question. If anyone feels like correcting me, please, do so.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 2nd March 2013 at 04:35 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:37 PM   #5581
Wowbagger
The Infinitely Prolonged
 
Wowbagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Tea?
You be quiet!! You'll crash the system!!

Originally Posted by TjW View Post
I would say, "Kill the heathen unbeliever!", but what would be the point?
At least it's a better theory than GIBHOR's.
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be.

SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/
An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter!

By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!
Wowbagger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:47 PM   #5582
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
No morals involved......
The Reluctant Cannibal

Flanders: A song which we call, "The Reluctant Cannibal":

Seated one day at the tom-tom,
I heard a welcome shout from the kitchen:
"COME AND GEEEEEEEEEEET IT!"
Roast leg of insurance salesman!

A chorus of "yum"s ran round the table:
(Yum yum yum yum yum yum yum...)
Except for Junior, who pushed away his shell,
Got up from his log, and said:

Swann: "I don't want any part of it!"

Flanders: What? Why not?

Swann: I don't eat people.

Flanders: Hey?
Swann: I won't eat people.

Flanders: Huh?

Swann: I don't eat people.

Flanders: I must be going deaf!

Swann: Eating people is wrong.

Flanders: It's wrong?

Swann: Don't eat people.

Flanders: Have you gone clean out of your mind?

Swann: I won't eat people.

Flanders: What's the matter with the lad?

Swann: Don't eat people.

Flanders: He keeps on repeating.

Both: Eating people is bad.

Flanders: But people have always eaten people,
What else is there to eat?
If the Juju had meant us not to eat people,
He wouldn't have made us of meat!

Swann: Don't eat people.

Flanders: Oh no, not again.

Swann: I won't eat people.

Flanders: All the day long.

Both: Don't eat people.

Flanders: He keeps on repeating.

Both: Eating people is wrong.

Flanders: Well... I... I never heard a more ridiculous idea in all my born days. To think that a son of mine should grow up to be a sissy - me, chief assistant to the assistant chief! I suppose you realise, son, if this was to get around, we might never get self-Government.

Swann: I won't eat people!

Flanders: Have you been talking to one of your mothers again? You're not getting to be one of these cranks who think that eating people is cruel, are you? Seeing the man sitting in the pot and you think he's suffering. Oh, it's not like that at all. Why, he's just had an invigourating chase through the forest, sitting there in the nice warm water with all the carrots and dumplings and things, he's thinking, "Oh, the pleasure and happiness I'm going to give to a heap of people". That man in the pot there, he enjoys it!

Swann: Eating people is wrong!

Flanders: Look son, son, I admire your sincerity. Always be sincere... whether you mean it or not. But you're young, you're young, when you're young you think you can change the whole world overnight, even eating people - I know, I've been young myself. Take it from your old Dad, you've just got to learnt to take the world as it is.

Swann: I won't let another man pass my lips!

Flanders: I know why you say "Don't eat people", because you are a coward, Francis, that's your trouble. Yes, a yellow-livered coward. You wouldn't mind eating people if you weren't afraid of ending up in the pot yourself - how despicable! If you go on like this you're liable to get ME into hot water.

Swann: I won't eat people.

Flanders: That's enough!

Swann: I don't eat people.

Flanders: I don't want to...

Swann: Eating people is wrong!

Flanders: Communist!

Flanders: Going around saying "Don't eat people",
That's the way to make people hate'ya.
We always have eaten people, always will eat people,
You can't change human nature.

Flanders: Now let's try...

Swann: I won't eat people,
I don't eat people,
I won't eat people,
I don't eat people!

Flanders: Must have been someone he ate!

Swann: Eating people is out!

Flanders: I give up, I give up, you used to be a regular anthrophagi. If this crazy idealistic idea of yours was to catch on, I just dunno where we would all be. Just about ruin our entire internal economy. Fortunately, I suppose it's catching on isn't really very likely - why, you might just as well going around saying "Don't fight people", for example...

Swann: Don't fight people? Ha, ha! Don't fight people?! Ha ha ha!

Flanders: There, imagine? There, you see! All part of the same...
Both: (laughing) ... fantastical impossibility!

Flanders: That's the boy!

Both: RIDICULOUS!
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:48 PM   #5583
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 33,127
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
No morals involved......
No morals involved if you're a theist who uses the Christian Bible as your relative moral guide. Have you seen how horrific the murder and rape is condoned in the Bible?

Where do atheists get their morals from?
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:50 PM   #5584
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post

Where do atheists get their morals from?
From being nice people.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:52 PM   #5585
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rachel, KS
Posts: 33,127
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so why then do you think its morally acceptable to kill a cow, to eath its meat, and not be a cannibal , like a spider female, which eats its male, after the sexual act ?
Why was it moral for one person to kill a girl for having pre-marital sex but it isn't now? Why was it moral to kill your neighbor for picking up sticks on the Sabbath and now it isn't? That would make it subjective, wouldn't it?

Thank you for admitting it.
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 04:54 PM   #5586
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Why was it moral for one person to kill a girl for having pre-marital sex but it isn't now? Why was it moral to kill your neighbor for picking up sticks on the Sabbath and now it isn't?
Answer please Gibhor.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:03 PM   #5587
Lowpro
Philosopher
 
Lowpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,399
After having a kid it probably chilled God out some.
__________________
"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers
Lowpro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:04 PM   #5588
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
After having a kid it probably chilled God out some.
I thought that the holy ghost was the father, and god merely a voyeur.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:24 PM   #5589
deaman
Penultimate Amazing
 
deaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 12,229
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
No morals involved......
Well see, you didn't see the first sentence. I was taught it was not right, to eat people.

How about you?
deaman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:25 PM   #5590
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
No morals involved......
If I had to, I would.

See: Donner party
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:33 PM   #5591
deaman
Penultimate Amazing
 
deaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 12,229
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
If I had to, I would.

See: Donner party
Yup, there would be a situation where I would eat Gibhor. If my family were going to starve and only Gibhors freshly dead body was available, as a last ditch effort to stay alive, I'd eat him right up.

A little onions, a little garlic......hmmmm....who knows?

But, that is an extreme example.

Last edited by deaman; 2nd March 2013 at 05:34 PM.
deaman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:36 PM   #5592
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
And of course there was the cannibal who passed his best friend.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:38 PM   #5593
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 05:40 PM   #5594
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by deaman View Post
Yup, there would be a situation where I would eat Gibhor. If my family were going to starve and only Gibhors freshly dead body was available, as a last ditch effort to stay alive, I'd eat him right up.

A little onions, a little garlic......hmmmm....who knows?

But, that is an extreme example.
A mass? Would you have wine?

If I were dead and other people could benefit, I would have no problem with the idea of being eaten.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 06:22 PM   #5595
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by deaman View Post
Yup, there would be a situation where I would eat Gibhor. If my family were going to starve and only Gibhors freshly dead body was available, as a last ditch effort to stay alive, I'd eat him right up.

A little onions, a little garlic......hmmmm....who knows?

But, that is an extreme example.
We of course wouldn't need it as any good atheist camper always stocks a spare baby in case of low rations
__________________
Memento Mori
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 06:29 PM   #5596
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
according to the Big Bang model, energy was created at the Big Bang.
No. Expansion cosmology does not say anything about creation. It only says that at one point the universe was incredibly dense and hot.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 06:32 PM   #5597
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,044
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
No morals involved......

Maybe it does.

As long as you're not killing people for the purpose of eating them, is there actually anything inherently immoral about eating them?

Sure, there's health risks and it would be considered disrespectful. But if the deceased wasn't diseased, and you had permission from their next of kin, would it actually be immoral to eat them?

What does your big book of religious values (The Bible) have to say about that?

Wait, there's no need for you to answer. I can look it up for myself.

Originally Posted by Leviticus 26:29
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 28:53
And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 28:57
And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them.
Originally Posted by Isaiah 9:19-20
Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm.
Originally Posted by Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine.
Originally Posted by Jeremiah 19:9
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend.
Originally Posted by Ezekiel 5:10
Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers.
Originally Posted by Zechariah 11:9
I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Originally Posted by 2 Kings 6:28-29
This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him.
Originally Posted by Lamentations 4:10
The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat.
Originally Posted by Micah 3:2-3
Who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.

I can't seem to find any injunction against cannibalism in the Bible. In fact, didn't Jesus tell people to symbolically consume his flesh and blood?

Are you sure that cannibalism is wrong according to your beliefs?
__________________
"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 06:34 PM   #5598
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
so why then do you think its morally acceptable to kill a cow, to eath its meat, and not be a cannibal , like a spider female, which eats its male, after the sexual act ?
Morality is not involved when a female spider eats a male spider after mating. This behavioral program has evolved because it leads to greater reproductive success for the spiders. The same is true of a spider "sacrificing" herself to her newly hatched young.

It is morally acceptable, to most people, for a human to eat a cow because we place greater value on human life than on other species.

Would you please explain what context would make it morally good to kill your own daughter for having sex with her boyfriend?
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 06:35 PM   #5599
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
maibe human meat tastes good as well.
Actually, it tastes terrible.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 06:39 PM   #5600
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post

Would you please explain what context would make it morally good to kill your own daughter for having sex with her boyfriend?
I wonder why Gibhor keeps avoiding that question?
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:36 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.