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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:51 PM   #5601
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Morality is not involved when a female spider eats a male spider after mating. This behavioral program has evolved because it leads to greater reproductive success for the spiders. The same is true of a spider "sacrificing" herself to her newly hatched young.
Exactly. The male spider benefits reproductively from being eaten by providing nutrition for the eggs. The God of spiders demands the male be eaten: Anything else is immoral child abuse from the point of view of the spiders.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 06:59 PM   #5602
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
No. Expansion cosmology does not say anything about creation. It only says that at one point the universe was incredibly dense and hot.
Just to add they also theorize the entropy being infinitely low at that point in time. Important for after expansion cosmology as it explains the "rest" of cosmology".
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:00 PM   #5603
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I wonder why Gibhor keeps avoiding that question?
He just needs to pull a William Lane Craig on that one. It's morally good because God said it was. And then God said it wasn't so now it's morally bad (wait did he ever say it wasn't?... hmm....)
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:04 PM   #5604
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The God of spiders demands the male be eaten...
Ungoliant is a harsh mistress.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:37 PM   #5605
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Exactly. The male spider benefits reproductively from being eaten by providing nutrition for the eggs. The God of spiders demands the male be eaten: Anything else is immoral child abuse from the point of view of the spiders.
Heheh arachnocentric theory explains everything! They eat the males because the universe is fine tuned for them to eat the males! Checkmate spider atheists!
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:43 PM   #5606
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Ungoliant is a harsh mistress.
I thought her name was Lolth.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 07:54 PM   #5607
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Is this someone you know, recommending cannibalism?

While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."

New American Standard Bible (©1995)


Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

New International Version (©1984)

Interesting. Quite insteresting............
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Old 2nd March 2013, 08:22 PM   #5608
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
He just needs to pull a William Lane Craig on that one. It's morally good because God said it was. And then God said it wasn't so now it's morally bad (wait did he ever say it wasn't?... hmm....)
Well, at least that position has an internal consistency. Of course, it exposes the rather arbitrary nature of god's morality, which is one of the reasons why I do not subscribe by it.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 08:44 PM   #5609
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Well, at least that position has an internal consistency. Of course, it exposes the rather arbitrary nature of god's morality, which is one of the reasons why I do not subscribe by it.
You and me both. I'd rather determine morality in a subjective but consistent basis using psychology/sociology. After all, how can you determine a morality that's truly objective vs a morality that's subjective but so consistent that it could be confused with an objective morality?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:23 PM   #5610
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I am only thinking of the more philosophical ideas in theology, or the more theological ideas in philosophy.

When it comes to existence everything is speculation. Materialism can't go there without delving into speculative forms of philosophy and if one goes there one ends up examining our intellectual limitations and what we can't say about existence.
It is true that everything pre-big bang is highly speculative, but you can at least give more weight to the hypothesis which is most like what we already know.

You cant completely rule out other ideas obviously, but you can say that it is *more likely* that whatever existed "before" our universe or "outside" our universe is made of the same stuff our universe is.

If you lived in an all red town, with all red streets, all red houses and all red townspeople..... and you're sitting on your all red couch with your all red dog eating your all red sandwich and drinking your all red beer, and the all red postman arrives and delivers your all red mail, and you use your all red letter opener and open an all red envelope...... what colour do you reckon the letter might be?
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:29 PM   #5611
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post

Would you please explain what context would make it morally good to kill your own daughter for having sex with her boyfriend?

I wonder why Gibhor keeps avoiding that question?

He's already answered it...
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Of course because its not moral according the bible.

He does have a point. The only Biblical reference given in this thread to support the claim that the Bible says it is moral was given in this post...
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Even your god's morality is subjective. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 clearly prescribes the murder of your own daughter should you discover that she's had sex.

But if you actually read the text, this isn't what it's saying...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...21&version=NIV

It's saying that if your daughter gets married, but her husband decides he doesn't like her and claims she wasn't a virgin, and you can't provide the "proof" of her virginity, then the townsmen shall stone her to death on her father's doorstep.

Nothing about parents killing their daughter for discovering that she had sex.

Hell, if they did discover that their daughter had sex with her boyfriend, they could just claim he raped her and force him to marry her and pay a fine. This way they'd not only avoid having to pay a dowry, but they'd also get paid for marrying her off. A win-win situation for them.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 09:38 PM   #5612
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Let's take a look at the consistency of the god of the bible, shall we? I love this little list, but I don't know who the original author is, so thank you to some JREF person out there!

God never gets tired and rests, except for when he does. (Is 40:28, Gen 2:2-3)

God's anger lasts forever but doesn't last forever. (Micah 7:18, Jer 17:4)

You are justified and achieve salvation by your deeds, not by faith... and also by faith, not by your deeds. (Gal 2:16, Matt 19:17, Rom 3:28, James 2:24)

It's impossible to see God and nobody ever has, except for those who have, and it killed all of them, except that it didn't. (Gen 32:30, Ex 33:20, Gen 12:7, Ex 33:11, John 1:18, Ex 24:9-11, 1 Tim 6:16)

God claims responsibility for all that is bad and evil in the world in Isaiah 45:7, contradicting all claims anywhere else that God is entirely good and loving and evil came from anywhere else and God doesn't like having evil around.

He's described as merciful, gracious, slow to anger, and loving in Exodus 34:6, which contradicts the huge stream of his demands for various nasty punishments elsewhere and the entire warped basis for the warped Christian description of justice through holy blood sacrifice (not to mention the violence he demands against the innocent not as punishment but just because they're in the way, and the smaller things he allows to happen but could have prevented, like making the blind people Jesus healed endure blindness for as long as they did before meeting Jesus).

Wealth is a blessing, but woe unto those who have it! (Luke 6:24 & 14:33, Psalm 112:1-3)

When Jesus died, the curtain in the temple had already ripped itself in half, but it hadn't yet and wouldn't until he was dead. (Mark 15:37-38, Luke 23:45-46, Matt 27:50-51)

Two different groups of soldiers were the ones who put the royal robe on Jesus. (Luke 23:11, Matt 27:27-28, John 19:1-2)

Jesus's rampage in the temple happened before the hissy-fit at the fig tree, but the fig tree episode came first. (Matt 21:12-19, Mark 11:12-17)

What did Saul's traveling companions see & hear when Saul was having his revelation? (Acts 9:7, 22:9)

Jesus is the only person who ever ascended to Heaven alive, but someone else did it first. (2 Kings 2:11, John 3:13)

David took two different numbers of horsemen from Hadadezer in the same incident. (2 Sam 8:4, 1 Chron 18:4)

He also paid two different prices for the same threshing floor. (1 Chron 21:25, 2 Sam 24:24)

Of David's three mightiest men, either two different ones are called the "chief" among them, or one man had two different names and his claim to fame was having killed two different numbers of other men with his spear. (2 Sam 23:8, 1 Chron 11:11)

Both thieves on the crosses near Jesus reviled him, but only one did and the other rebuked him for it. (Luke 23:39-42, Mark 15:32, Matt 27:44)

Jesus healed two blind men on the road to Jericho, but it was only one. (Luke 18:35-43, Mark 15:32, Matt 27:44)

And the biggest one of all because it's the central, most important story in Christianity, the one you'd think they'd have the most interest in making sure they got right, is the biggest mess: different numbers of women with different names watch Jesus's tomb being opened but also discover that it was already open before they got there, and meet one man who was really two men who were really one angel, who was/were sitting, standing, and descending from Heaven (during an earthquake which didn't happen) & then opening the tomb that was already open. (Matt 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20)

The centurion with the sick, dying servant sent some Jewish elders to ask for help, then sent some friends to talk to Jesus when he got closer... but he also went out to find Jesus himself without sending anybody. (Matthew 8:5-8, Luke 7:2-6)

There are ZERO blameless, righteous people, NOT EVEN ONE (Romans 3:10)... not even Noah (Genesis 6:8-9 & 7:1), Job (Job 2:3), Zacharias & Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), or James's entire audience (James 5:16).
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Old 2nd March 2013, 10:29 PM   #5613
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
You and me both. I'd rather determine morality in a subjective but consistent basis using psychology/sociology. After all, how can you determine a morality that's truly objective vs a morality that's subjective but so consistent that it could be confused with an objective morality?
this has been my primary problem with claims of objective morality.

It externalizes responsibility and gives the individual a pass from having to consider the ramifications of their moral choices. A person who doesn't consider the "why" of a moral belief and simply says, "Becuase god" is a very frightening individual.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:06 AM   #5614
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Originally Posted by deaman View Post
Let's take a look at the consistency of the god of the bible, shall we?
no, we shall not. If you want , please open a new thread.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:16 AM   #5615
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
If you lived in an all red town, with all red streets, all red houses and all red townspeople..... and you're sitting on your all red couch with your all red dog eating your all red sandwich and drinking your all red beer, and the all red postman arrives and delivers your all red mail, and you use your all red letter opener and open an all red envelope...... what colour do you reckon the letter might be?
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons...-or-not-part-1

Quote:
"There's a building, somebody made it. There's a piano, somebody made it. There's a universe, more complex than a building, infinitely more complex than a piano, somebody...somebody who is very, very powerful and very, very intelligent made it."

You say, "No, no, chance made it." Listen, folks, that's rational suicide, that's not logical. Logic abandoned leaves you with myth and the enemies of mythology, the enemies of mythology are empirical data and God-given reason. So in order to be an evolutionist and believe that chance makes things happen, you have to do two things: reject the empirical data, and be irrational. But if you love your sin enough, you'll do it.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:18 AM   #5616
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Originally Posted by deaman View Post
Is this someone you know, recommending cannibalism?

While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."

New American Standard Bible (©1995)


Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

New International Version (©1984)

Interesting. Quite insteresting............
Indeed. Do you think Jesus meant that literally ?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:20 AM   #5617
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Exactly. The male spider benefits reproductively from being eaten by providing nutrition for the eggs. The God of spiders demands the male be eaten: Anything else is immoral child abuse from the point of view of the spiders.
So how and why has evolution set the goal to have more reproductive success ?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:23 AM   #5618
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Actually, it tastes terrible.
Not to the papuas. I have been in Papua new guinea. There are still cannibals, and unreached tribes. To them , human meat tastes excellent. So , is it morally ok in your view that they eat human meat ?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:35 AM   #5619
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Indeed. Do you think Jesus meant that literally ?
It doesn't matter when you take into consideration that it comes from a fairy story.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:36 AM   #5620
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you believe in absurd (at least according to science) probabilities.

From the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Geisler and Turek; p. 116

The incredible specified complexity of life becomes obvious when one considers the message found in the DNA of a one-celled amoeba... Staunch Darwinist Richard Dawkins admits that the message found in just the cell nucleus of a tiny amoeba is more than all thirty volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica combined, and the entire amoeba has as much information in its DNA as 1000 complete sets of the Encyclopedia Britannica... Now we must emphasize that these 1000 encyclopedias do not consist of random letters {information} but letters {information} in a very specific order just like {the letters of}real encyclopedias. So here's the key question... If simple messages such as "Take out the garbage --mom",... and "Drink Coke" require an intelligent being , then why doesn't a message 1000 encyclopedias long require one?

___

From the book "Examine the Evidence" by Ralph Muncaster pg. 108:

"There is a limit beyond which something is for all practical purposes impossible...scientists generally regard anything with less than 1 chance in 10 {to the 50th power} of occurring randomly as essentially impossible or absurd. So when we look at the odds of evolutionary events taking place we will use the same standard."

Basically what he is saying is we know how the old the finite universe is and we know the incredible complexity of even a single cell. He goes into a rather deep discussion of DNA.

Here is a statement he makes after talking about the various DNA processes that have to occur for even a simple one cell life form to have a chance of occurring

From page 108

"One hundred and fifty people attempting to flip 150 heads in a row at a rate of one attempt per second for 15 billion years would still yield a probability of only 1 chance in ten thousand trillion trillion The simplest life form would require110,000 such coin flips, not just 150."
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
...How did he arrive at these conclusions?
From the book "Examine the Evidence" by Ralph Muncaster, pgs. 110 - 111.

Chirality is the term given to the necessity that all nucleotides (sugars) in a DNA or RNA chain be of a certain molecular orientation (“right-handed,” technically dextroform) for the chain to work. Likewise, nearly all of the 20 different amino acids (actually 19) used in cellular protein chains must also be of a specified orientation (“left-handed,” technically levoform) for a protein to work. Not one can be defective. If these chirality requirements are not met, the entire process of manufacture from DNA to RNA to “working protein” fails. Hence, for the first bacterium, a perfect mix of both nucleotide orientation (right -handed) and amino-acid orientation (left handed) had to occur... we also need to keep in mind that both the DNA and protein chains are extremely long... In nature, however, we find that all amino acids occur randomly, in equal proportions of right- and left-handed...To create the first cell, all of the thousands of amino acids in the hundred-plus functional proteins required for the first cell would have to suddenly show up—the right types at exactly the right place at exactly the right time—all left-handed. This is the only way they would have been able to properly bond as instructed by the DNA... Likewise, all 100,000-plus nucleotides would have to show up at exactly the right time in exactly the right way—all right-handed... In other words, to just get the 100,000 correctly oriented nucleotides together in the first place would be like flipping a coin and getting 100,000 heads in a row. To get the 10,000 correctly oriented amino acids together would be like flipping 10,000 tails in a row. To do both, which is necessary, would be like correctly getting 110,000 specified flips in a row. Of course there are other problems of random assembly, but we need not go beyond the chirality problem to make the point.

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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:37 AM   #5621
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Not to the papuas. I have been in Papua new guinea. There are still cannibals, and unreached tribes. To them , human meat tastes excellent. So , is it morally ok in your view that they eat human meat ?
Depends on the context. Ask Nando Parrado, why don't you.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:45 AM   #5622
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Maybe it does.

As long as you're not killing people for the purpose of eating them, is there actually anything inherently immoral about eating them?
There are no real moral values in atheism. Therefore, there cannot be anything wrong to kill someone, to eat his flesh. We are just one of thousands of different species. We have no more value than a cow. So it makes no difference, if you kill a cow, or a human, to eat........

Quote:
Sure, there's health risks and it would be considered disrespectful.
So its disrespectful towards a human, but not to kill a duck, or a pork, or a cow ?

Quote:
Are you sure that cannibalism is wrong according to your beliefs?
Well, maibe the best proof of love, is to kill someone, and then cannibalize that person ?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:54 AM   #5623
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
... I have been in Papua new guinea. There are still cannibals, and unreached tribes. To them , human meat tastes excellent. So , is it morally ok in your view that they eat human meat ?
Why are you diverting the discussion from the thread topic?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 03:55 AM   #5624
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
There are no real moral values in atheism. Therefore, there cannot be anything wrong to kill someone, to eat his flesh. We are just one of thousands of different species. We have no more value than a cow. So it makes no difference, if you kill a cow, or a human, to eat........



So its disrespectful towards a human, but not to kill a duck, or a pork, or a cow ?



Well, maibe the best proof of love, is to kill someone, and then cannibalize that person ?
Was it morally ok for Nando Parrado to engage in cannibalism?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 04:34 AM   #5625
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
So how and why has evolution set the goal to have more reproductive success ?
The "goal" hasn't been "set", that's just how evolution works. Passing hereditary characteristics down to the next generation is the whole basis of how evolution works. "Reproductive success", whether short or long term, for either individual or community, is the only thing evolution can optimize for.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
There are no real moral values in atheism. Therefore, there cannot be anything wrong to kill someone, to eat his flesh. We are just one of thousands of different species. We have no more value than a cow. So it makes no difference, if you kill a cow, or a human, to eat........
Nonsense. I've already explained this.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Well, maibe the best proof of love, is to kill someone, and then cannibalize that person ?
Not unless you're insane.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 04:49 AM   #5626
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you believe in absurd (at least according to science) probabilities.

From the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Geisler and Turek; p. 116

<huge slab of copypasta drivel>
___

<huge slab of copypasta drivel>


...How did he arrive at these conclusions?


From the book "Examine the Evidence" by Ralph Muncaster, pgs. 110 - 111.

<huge slab of copypasta drivel>


"I have no idea and lack sufficient knowledge of the subject to form one" would have been a lot briefer and far, far, more honest.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 05:43 AM   #5627
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May I respectfully suggest Pharaoh consider that a day without a Muncaster quotation is a day without Aten's gracious bounty?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 05:52 AM   #5628
Akhenaten
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
May I respectfully suggest Pharaoh consider that a day without a Muncaster quotation is a day without Aten's gracious bounty?


But it's being done at the expense of our daily Sir Ramsay and Sir Thomas Jefferson quotes!

To say nothing of the fact that we have yet to hear what The World's Greatest Historian™, Sir Luke, has to say about the exodus.


ETA:

I see I'm in the wrong thread, although to be fair, it is all part of the same overarching derail.
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Last edited by Akhenaten; 3rd March 2013 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 05:57 AM   #5629
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Thanks, but I reached my crazy-limit earlier today. I think Ill pass.

Good luck with it though.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 06:25 AM   #5630
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
So how and why has evolution set the goal to have more reproductive success ?
Set is a loaded word, if you have two members of a population, the one that has more successful offspring will contribute more genetic material to successive generations.

How could it be otherwise?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 06:26 AM   #5631
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Indeed. Do you think Jesus meant that literally ?
The Roman Catholic Church seems to think he did, if their dogma of transubstantiation is to be believed.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 06:28 AM   #5632
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
There are no real moral values in atheism. Therefore, there cannot be anything wrong to kill someone, to eat his flesh. We are just one of thousands of different species. We have no more value than a cow. So it makes no difference, if you kill a cow, or a human, to eat........



So its disrespectful towards a human, but not to kill a duck, or a pork, or a cow ?



Well, maibe the best proof of love, is to kill someone, and then cannibalize that person ?
Just like the fine tuning argument, you don't understand anything except SQUAWK for Jesus.

So if your read posts and responded to them you would not be such a terrible witness.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 06:30 AM   #5633
pakeha
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Is this from the Onion?

Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
But it's being done at the expense of our daily Sir Ramsay and Sir Thomas Jefferson quotes!

To say nothing of the fact that we have yet to hear what The World's Greatest Historian™, Sir Luke, has to say about the exodus.


ETA:

I see I'm in the wrong thread, although to be fair, it is all part of the same overarching derail.
O Pharaoh, this thread has an OP who thoughtfully provides links to some amusing sites
http://creation.com/the-naturalistic...ngly-difficult
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Old 3rd March 2013, 06:45 AM   #5634
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Set is a loaded word, if you have two members of a population, the one that has more successful offspring will contribute more genetic material to successive generations.

How could it be otherwise?
it simply could not be. Evolution has no goals, there is no reason to create successive generations.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 06:46 AM   #5635
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http://www.evolutionisstupid.com/index.htm

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Old 3rd March 2013, 06:49 AM   #5636
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
..
Would you please explain what context would make it morally good to kill your own daughter for having sex with her boyfriend?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 07:05 AM   #5637
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Would you please explain what context would make it morally good to kill your own daughter for having sex with her boyfriend?
where does the bible say that ?
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Old 3rd March 2013, 07:26 AM   #5638
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
where does the bible say that ?
Like most believers you have never read the bible.

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

http://www.evilbible.com/
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Old 3rd March 2013, 07:36 AM   #5639
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
no, we shall not. If you want , please open a new thread.
Yes, we shall. You're the one who brought up that morally bankrupt novel. So, do you believe that it's moral to murder your neighbor for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

Answer the question, GIBHOR.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Not to the papuas. I have been in Papua new guinea. There are still cannibals, and unreached tribes. To them , human meat tastes excellent. So , is it morally ok in your view that they eat human meat ?
But if morals are universal, why do they do it? Is it objectively moral for my slave to beat another person's slave if that other slave doesn't do as his master bids?

Answer the question, GIBHOR.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 07:38 AM   #5640
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
First line: "This is a book that should not have been written, but it does."

LOL. Something sure is stupid but it isn't evolution!
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