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3rd March 2013, 07:52 PM | #5721 |
Penultimate Amazing
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3rd March 2013, 07:54 PM | #5722 |
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Gibhor isn't interested in honesty or truth. He cares only to remain ignorant in him manufactured bliss. Science will advance, and will continue to leave him in the dust.
I provided a list of things we learned in 2012 assuming Naturalism. He has yet to provide a similar list assuming supernaturalism. The reason is clear, supernaturalism doesn't provide a means of learning. It only provides a means of deception. self deception and deceiving others. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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3rd March 2013, 07:59 PM | #5723 |
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It's worse than that. You're obligated to, when learning something new, consider it and if it destroys your point (and in this case is literally turns the homochirality stupidity to dust) you cannot just ignore it, go somewhere else with your same misbegotten information as if you have NEVER heard the explanation before. But that's what GIBHOR did and that's why he is dishonest and if he denies it well we can see that you cannot trust a dishonest man to defend their character.
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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3rd March 2013, 08:14 PM | #5724 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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3rd March 2013, 08:16 PM | #5725 |
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That doesn't answer the question.
It may not be required but is it immoral? Is it immoral to obey the laws that God gave to Moses or not? Because occasionally some of the non-identical offspring will be better at acquiring resources than their parents. Eventually, as resources become depleted, it becomes more difficult for each organism to acquire enough resources to survive, so only those best at acquiring resources will survive, leaving only the improved versions around to produce more offspring. As these ones produce more offspring, the hereditary abilities that made them more efficient at acquiring resources will be passed on. And since the offspring will be non-identical, occasionally some of them will be better at acquiring resources than their parents. And so the cycle continues, evolution in action. Why? Macro-evolution is just the culmination of a large number of small (micro-evolved) changes over time. How can you claim that one is possible, but the other is not? It's like arguing that a snail can travel a few inches, but could never travel a mile no matter how much time it is given. Because it doesn't actually explain anything. It's a non-answer. For example, if you ask someone how mountains form, and they tell you "God made them" you know nothing about mountains you didn't know already. It hasn't actually explained anything. But if you ask someone how mountains form and they tell you about earth's crust, plate tectonics, subduction, continental drift, ect, you now have areas of knowledge open to you that you didn't before. |
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3rd March 2013, 08:18 PM | #5726 |
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Gibhor, I noticed that your link "What has Christianity ever done for me" conveniently leaves out all the evils committed in the name of Christianity, choosing to focus on only positives (and, in the case of science, primarily post-Renaissance Christian scientific thinkers).
I also call BS on the claim that Christianity advocated universal education for men and women. If that were so, how is it that in the 14th century the literacy rate was only 5%, and that very few women of that period (with the exception of nuns and some women from upper-class families) could read or write? This is 1000 years after the time of Constantine, Gibhor! Surely if Christianity legitimately wanted educated men and women, in an era where Christianity was the primary belief system the literacy rate should have been approaching 100%, not one-twentieth of that rate. I continue to feel that humanity would have done much, much better without religious power-tripping and rampant superstition gumming up the works for nearly two millennia. |
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3rd March 2013, 08:18 PM | #5727 |
I say nay!
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3rd March 2013, 08:38 PM | #5728 |
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I have to say that your above argument is one of the most morally depraved, repulsively misogynistic things I've ever read. You are essentially saying that it is morally good to kill an unmarried girl for the "crime" of having sex because this would be an embarrassment to her priest father, but that we don't have to do that now because we don't have priests anymore.
What about the laws in Deuteronomy that say that an unmarried woman who has sex deserves death? |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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3rd March 2013, 08:44 PM | #5729 |
Hostile Nanobacon
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3rd March 2013, 08:47 PM | #5730 |
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3rd March 2013, 08:50 PM | #5731 |
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I don't think he even said that. According to his argument, the only reason we don't have to kill the daughter of a priest for having sex is that we don't have priests anymore. It's like saying we don't have to kill children for walking on the grass because we don't have grass anymore.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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3rd March 2013, 08:52 PM | #5732 |
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well, you have made the assertion that christianity has brought no good to humanity. I have shown your assertion is blatantly false.
If people do not follow what Christ has teached us, who is to blame ?!!
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http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t343...f-christianity
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3rd March 2013, 08:54 PM | #5733 |
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3rd March 2013, 08:59 PM | #5734 |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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3rd March 2013, 08:59 PM | #5735 |
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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3rd March 2013, 09:01 PM | #5736 |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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3rd March 2013, 09:13 PM | #5737 |
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No, it's precisely because we have subjective moral values that we can say so. You have no way of saying anything is moral or not unless it appears in your morally bankrupt novel. To you, murdering your daughter for having sex out of wedlock is moral. Murdering your neighbor for picking up sticks on the Sabbath is moral to you.
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3rd March 2013, 09:13 PM | #5738 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
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My morality is constructed using reason and compassion. In my morality, it is evil to kill a woman because she had sex. In your morality, it is justifiable to kill a woman for having sex. You can play at lecturing me about my morality all you want, but you can't play down the fact that the book that you claim to be the source of perfect, objective morality contains edicts that are cruel and hateful.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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3rd March 2013, 09:21 PM | #5739 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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3rd March 2013, 09:25 PM | #5740 |
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His basic argument is he is trying to claim that since we have a moral code, that code must come from god.
The problem is, even if that argument is true, it would be clear that the moral giver ISN'T the god of the bible. Our modern moral code finds the majority of biblical morality to be abhorrent and disgusting. Of course, the reality it GIBHOR'S god is actually a reflection of HIS morality and not the otherway around. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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3rd March 2013, 09:38 PM | #5741 |
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3rd March 2013, 09:39 PM | #5742 |
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3rd March 2013, 09:41 PM | #5743 |
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3rd March 2013, 09:44 PM | #5744 |
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If they are subjective, they are non binding, and not valid at all. They depend only upon each ones own subjective moral standard. Therefore, good and bad does not exist. Everything is relative.
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3rd March 2013, 09:46 PM | #5745 |
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3rd March 2013, 09:51 PM | #5746 |
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check out :
http://web.expasy.org/cgi-bin/pathwa...humbnails.pl?2 this is a mitochondria map. Its the energy producing machine in the cell. Have you had the opportunity to visit a power plant? A few years ago I had. I visited the largest generator of renewable clean energy on the planet, the Itaipu. During the visit, you can meet some sectors of the plant and learn a little about the workings of a hydroelectric plant. Such plants use energy from the waters of a river to produce electricity. For this, two major structures are built main dam and the spillway. The dam has a function of damming a river, forming a water reservoir, a pond. The spillway has gates through which excess water will drain dammed and will not be used to produce electricity. The spillways are usually the biggest attraction to visitors, for example, the Itaipu dam, where the spillway has flow capacity equivalent to 40 Iguazu Falls! See all that water flowing down a slope of 30 meters is quite a spectacle! The Itaipu hydroelectric plant is really a huge engineering challenge materialized. The height of the dam reaches 196 meters, the equivalent of a 65-story building! The concrete used in the construction of the plant would build 210 as the Maracană stadium, and the iron and steel used would be enough to build 380 Eiffel Towers! When the plant has completed 20 years of operation, in 2004, had already produced enough electricity to power the entire world for 36 days! For these and other reasons, the Itaipu hydroelectric plant was considered by the American Association of Civil Engineers as one of the seven wonders of the modern world. But how power is produced? The basic principle is simple: the reservoir of dammed water is at a high level in relation to the continuity of the river after the dam. The dam, in turn, has channels that connect the two sides of it, and thus the dammed water drops with great force through these channels. Within the channel is a turbine, a kind of propeller that rotates when water passes pushing its blades, rotating a shaft which is attached a magnet therefore also rotates. Properly positioned in front of the magnet is a coil, a set of copper wires where electrons are driven by alternating current generated by the rotation of the magnet. A stream of electrons, or electricity is conducted to the coil transformers that make the necessary adjustments to the distribution of electricity. In short, it is a device to convert the kinetic energy of the water into a form of energy that is best to be used by humans: the electricity. You can see in the screenshot above the base of the process I just described. What if I told you that every person owns a technology like this? That each has organized all this technology so microscopic inside your own body? Sounds hard to believe? Know that it is not only a didactic illustration, I'm really talking about a very similar mechanism; idea impossible under an evolutionary perspective, but completely normal under the creationist view. We have within us an amazing structure called mitochondria! The mitochondrion is an important cellular organelle that as a hydroelectric plant, has the function of converting one type of energy into another best use, in the case of our body convert energy stored in the form of sugars and fats into molecules of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). As the energy of these molecules is released by breaking their links, sugars and fats are substances that are difficult to use because they are very stable and, moreover, have concentrated much energy, if this energy was used directly would be produced so much heat that the cells burn instantly. Since ATP is an unstable compound and the enzyme (ATPase) that breaks its links releasing energy is abundant in the cell. ATP can be produced in large quantity from the sugars and fats, and their linkages are less energy, which allows a gradual release of energy. Two membranes enclose the mitochondria, one external and one internal. In the inner membrane, two main structures are located, on which I will speak later, which are the electron transport chain and submitocondrial particle (or corpuscle elementary). Despite the easy understanding for the process to work it is necessary that several complicated laws of physics are precisely adjusted for various machines and structures of great ingenuity and high technological complexity. How do you think all this tangle of reactions originated randomly?) initiating out of mitochondria and end in its interior, sugars and fats are transformed into a substance called acetyl-coenzyme A. This substance undergoes a new series of cascading reactions inside the mitochondria releasing protons (H +) and electrons. The freed electrons are conducted through the inner membrane of the mitochondria by the electron transport chain, a chain of proteins rich in iron and copper forming a true network of "wires" in the inner mitochondrial membrane! The electric current formed by the passage of electrons through this chain generates power for the pumping of protons into the space between the two mitochondrial membranes. With this process, ends up forming an accumulation of protons in high concentration in the space between the membranes, much higher than in more interior space bounded by the mitochondrial inner membrane where protons were initially released from acetyl-coenzyme A. Compared to the hydroelectric plant, we could say that there is an impoundment of protons from one side of the inner mitochondrial membrane, and this ends up serving as a barrier, separating the different levels of protons found on each side, as well as the hydroelectric dam separates the two sides with different levels of water. The dam plant has channels through which water flows at a higher level on the other side in order to use the force of passage of water to move the turbine. The same thing occurs in the "dam" of mitochondria! The protons at high concentration will pass through channels in the inner membrane to the side and less concentrated, oddly enough, this passage of protons serves to move a turbine exists within these channels! The set "channel-turbine" is the particle submitocondrial, and the turbine is formed by a protein structure called ATP synthase. This protein has a part which is inside the channel, which is shaped like helix and when the protons pass through the propeller blades to move. Helix is fixed to a shaft which extends out of the channel and also rotates with the shaft, and the outer end of the shaft is another part of the ATP synthase, which will rotate through a sequence exact fitting molecules, eventually forming ATP . It is very interesting to note that this plant is very complete mitochondrial, also possessing the spillway! In the inner membrane proteins called termogeninas act releasing excess protons intermembranas space, which are not used for energy production. while the giant Itaipu power plant has only 20 turbines, each mitochondrion has thousands, and each cell has thousands of mitochondria! While the best power converter units designed by humans have 20% yield at 30%, the remainder being dissipated as heat, the energy conversion is accomplished by the cell yield of 50%! Values are considerably higher. The remainder is dissipated into heat which maintains our temperature around 37 ° C, the optimum temperature for the functioning of human metabolism! If it were lower, chemical reactions would not happen if the temperature was higher, proteins would be degraded. I wonder who did it? Challenge someone to give a better answer than this: "He was the Creator!" There are many works that human identical or very closely resemble the organic processes or mechanisms naturally present in living beings, however, the example described here is one of the most impressive, precisely because of their resemblance to one of the most fantastic works of human engineering: the hydroelectric and especially when we see that our generator can be even better! This similarity is a very strong evidence (I would even say a proof) that the main processes and structures that make up living things must have an origin very intelligent, and most often are even more complex and sophisticated than wonderful human works designed and built by dozens of the best engineers, architects, physicists, chemists and workers, among others. Who has the courage to say that mitochondria evolved in successive stages should have the courage to say that the Itaipu could have been the result of multiple earthquakes in the Paraná river! |
3rd March 2013, 09:51 PM | #5747 |
Penultimate Amazing
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3rd March 2013, 09:51 PM | #5748 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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3rd March 2013, 09:53 PM | #5749 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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3rd March 2013, 09:57 PM | #5750 |
Philosopher
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Wait GIBHOR did you just do this:
Compare a manmade Electric Dam to a naturally (inferred) occurring ATP synthetic produciton pathway (evolved) and then ask "Who has the courage to say the Electric Dam was made naturally?" again you ignore chemistry to force magic into something that doesn't need magic; chemistry again. The hell?! queue irreducible complexityp |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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3rd March 2013, 10:05 PM | #5751 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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3rd March 2013, 10:06 PM | #5752 |
Philosopher
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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3rd March 2013, 10:09 PM | #5753 |
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So the fact that the "moral code" of the bible is different in different parts of the bible, and at different times in history, and for different societies; and therefore, by your admission, "non-binding" (no matter what your 'messiah' said) is the reason you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence?
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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3rd March 2013, 10:10 PM | #5754 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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3rd March 2013, 10:11 PM | #5755 |
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That's absurd. What about all the scientific advances made by the ancient Greeks before Christianity existed? And why was there so little scientific advance during the dark ages when the church held absolute rule, only to experience a resurgence during the renaissance when church power was on the decline? And correlation does not equal causation. The fact that many scientists held Christian beliefs in a time and place where Christian belief was fundamental to society hardly means that their discoveries are a product of Christianity. Take Newton. He wasn't a mainstream Christian, he was Arian in belief, which is generally regarded as heretical by most Christian denominations. He was also an occultist. Can you really credit Christianity for his discoveries? You can easily make an impressive list of non-christian scientists. Either way, it's irrelevant. |
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"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim |
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3rd March 2013, 10:11 PM | #5756 |
Meandering fecklessly
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That's funny coming from you.
Why not just deny it then? You agree by your silence.
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Just deny it then. You won't deny it, so therefore you agree by silent assent. |
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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3rd March 2013, 10:13 PM | #5757 |
Meandering fecklessly
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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3rd March 2013, 10:19 PM | #5758 |
Springy Goddess
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I beg to differ. I assert that every single act, good and bad alike, ever performed by a Christian (Jew, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist) could be done just as easily by a non-believer, and that Christianity (Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism) has no inherent power at all, other than the power of the believer's imagination.
Unfortunately it also seems to be the case that belief systems frequently inspire ordinary people to do questionable and even criminal things in the name of their particular god. Furthermore, deeply imbedded religions with political power tend to impede human progress by encouraging supernaturalism and squelching scientific research. At the end of the day, religion is more often than not the enemy of humanity rather than its friend.
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Reality is a theory, not a hypothesis. |
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3rd March 2013, 10:33 PM | #5759 |
Daydreamer
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So your objective morality is based on a document produced by committee?
I've found an online copy we can look at: http://www.reformed.org/documents/wc...ofs/index.html So it's still immoral to work on the Sabbath? We should still be stoning people to death for this? But putting that to one side, what does this document say about the morality of obeying the old laws? Let me look it up....
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Awesome. The document you refer to clearly states that it's still moral to follow the old laws. This means that it is okay to execute a priest's daughter for having sex, or stone a man to death for working on the sabbath. Thank you for clearing that up for us! |
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"That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim |
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3rd March 2013, 11:06 PM | #5760 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
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GIBHOR, how do you define "explanation"?!
The description you copied for us, of how complex the mitochondria "power plants" are, is NOT an explanation. It's just a statement saying "Whoa, those things are complicated!" For the record, I do NOT think it originated randomly. Randomness is NOT the explanation I use. The explanation that mitochondria originated through natural processes (that are NOT random) grants us... (can you guess what I am about to say next?.....) ... The ability to LEARN MORE about them! Endosymbiosys is the specific name of the process by which mitochondria become the "power plants" of cells, at least according to current theory. It makes predictions about HOW they will behave under certain circumstances that had not even been observed at the time of the prediction! So, we can experiment to see if our explanation is on the right track. http://www.nature.com/scitable/topic...ndria-14232356 You imply, by your "complex" argument, that it was designed. And, yet, for all that effort: Your explanation can NOT predict anything new or novel about mitochondria. I don't know how you define "explanation", yet. But, my own definition of the word is probably so much more reliable, that it brings enough clarity about the subject, that further research to be conducted!! |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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