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Old 26th April 2013, 09:00 AM   #7321
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
According to you it's not just unknown it's unknowable.
Which also makes it useless.
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:01 AM   #7322
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
According to you it's not just unknown it's unknowable.
Unknowabley unknowable.
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:02 AM   #7323
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes, isn't that what humans do, say in economics, politics, social struggles. I pointed out to you a few pages back that if humanity is venturing into the unknown science cannot help as its data is derived from already existing circumstances.
Science makes predictions about the unknown all the time. It's one of the defining characteristics of science.
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:10 AM   #7324
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Does mysticism make any predictions about the unknown?
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:12 AM   #7325
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Does mysticism make any predictions about the unknown?
More to the point, does it change based on testing those predictions when new information is received.
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:21 AM   #7326
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
More to the point, does it change based on testing those predictions when new information is received.
The concept of mysticism providing information is a novel one.
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Old 26th April 2013, 09:27 AM   #7327
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Are you suggesting that we cannot rely on rational thought and the reality out there beyond our minds may not conform to our rational speculation?
That is exactly the pint I am making, you are assuming things and asserting that preconception have some sort of automatic validity.
Which is why I have said that you really seem to hold those preconceptions and perhaps they need to be examined. In the case in point, assumptions about the exterior of the universe, if such a thing exists may not be drawn from the behaviors inside the universe, without some huge suppositions and caveats.
Quote:

This sounds a little like the fudge of "finite but unbounded" again. Even if spacetime is closed as you suggest, there may be something else and something add infinitum.
There may be there may not be, at this time that is speculation. There are theories which may lead to conclusions but they re far from it at this point. Space time is closed and bounded, we can no really say anything about the rest. Unless we acknowledge that it is speculation with absolutely no basis in data and evidence.
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For something to exist is a positive act, once this point is reached its regression all the way down, there's no rational escape.
Another big assumptions, possibilities can go either way a single instance, unsupported to an infinite regression. We can not say beyond speculation.
Quote:

The thought experiment illustrates a rational thought about existence. While we have rational thought we also have this thought, along with many others.
And there are more of your preconceptions. QM is irrational. But it exists.
Quote:

I'm not making the assumption, I'm saying what rational thought leads to.
Assuming reality is rational is an assumption. There are aspects that are decidedly not rational.
Quote:

There is more than one particle and likewise the forms the particles take. If more than one particle, why not more than one universe?
Speculation.
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No assumption, speculation

Yes and no one else does.

Science produces data, I'm not doing science, I'm exercising rational thought.
And that is the preconception, rational thought and reality are overlapping sets, but not congruent.


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Old 26th April 2013, 05:47 PM   #7328
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Does mysticism make any predictions about the unknown?
No predictions. No explanations. No cures.

Secrets...

Apparently, mysticism is about having secret knowledge of things beyond the remit of science. That would be secret knowledge of things that do not interact in any way with the universe... I wonder if it's as useful as it sounds?

I can see why they keep it secret.
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:18 AM   #7329
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
That is exactly the pint I am making, you are assuming things and asserting that preconception have some sort of automatic validity.
Which is why I have said that you really seem to hold those preconceptions and perhaps they need to be examined. In the case in point, assumptions about the exterior of the universe, if such a thing exists may not be drawn from the behaviors inside the universe, without some huge suppositions and caveats.

There may be there may not be, at this time that is speculation. There are theories which may lead to conclusions but they re far from it at this point. Space time is closed and bounded, we can no really say anything about the rest. Unless we acknowledge that it is speculation with absolutely no basis in data and evidence.

Another big assumptions, possibilities can go either way a single instance, unsupported to an infinite regression. We can not say beyond speculation.

And there are more of your preconceptions. QM is irrational. But it exists.

Assuming reality is rational is an assumption. There are aspects that are decidedly not rational.

Speculation.


And that is the preconception, rational thought and reality are overlapping sets, but not congruent.


I agree entirely, I do point out from time to time on the forum that rational thought is an assumption, I am well aware of this. Also that the reality beyond our minds cannot be assumed to conform to our preconceptions.
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:24 AM   #7330
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Originally Posted by gentlehorse View Post
No predictions. No explanations. No cures.

Secrets...

Apparently, mysticism is about having secret knowledge of things beyond the remit of science. That would be secret knowledge of things that do not interact in any way with the universe... I wonder if it's as useful as it sounds?

I can see why they keep it secret.
This is not correct. I am not going to start explaining the mystical practice here as it will be ridiculed in the usual way. This would be a futile and less than constructive, time wasting exercise.

Last edited by punshhh; 27th April 2013 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:26 AM   #7331
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Unknowabley
Is this the Welsh spelling of the word?
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:29 AM   #7332
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
This is not correct. I am not going to start explaining the mystical practice here as it will be ridiculed in the usual way. This would be a futile and less that constructive, time wasting exercise.
If there is any provable truth to it, why would it be ridiculed?
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:33 AM   #7333
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No. That is what ignorant humans do. The reason why we're not completely ignorant is that some of us actually go beyond making stuff up and look instead for a real explanation. That's why science is superior to your nonsense.
You're mistaken, humanity faces choices all the time about how to proceed. Where it is necessary to make a decision in unchartered water. For example the global economic crisis, climate change, the war against terrorism, space travel, to name just a few.
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:36 AM   #7334
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Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
If there is any provable truth to it, why would it be ridiculed?
Its not provable. You are aware presumably about the behavior of some posters on this forum?
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:43 AM   #7335
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Its not provable.
Then how do you know it exists?
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Old 27th April 2013, 12:44 AM   #7336
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
You're mistaken, humanity faces choices all the time about how to proceed. Where it is necessary to make a decision in unchartered water. For example the global economic crisis, climate change, the war against terrorism, space travel, to name just a few.
And science can provide information about the likely outcomes of actions taken. It doesn't say which choice should be made, but can inform what the consequences of the choices may be.
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Old 27th April 2013, 01:54 AM   #7337
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I agree entirely, I do point out from time to time on the forum that rational thought is an assumption, I am well aware of this. Also that the reality beyond our minds cannot be assumed to conform to our preconceptions.
Please provide proof that there is a reality beyond our minds.
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Old 27th April 2013, 01:55 AM   #7338
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Is this the Welsh spelling of the word?
No, the mystical spelling.
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Old 27th April 2013, 01:59 AM   #7339
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Its not provable. You are aware presumably about the behavior of some posters on this forum?
Why would the provability of the efficaciousness of mystical practice be affected by the behaviour of some posters here?
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Old 27th April 2013, 02:27 AM   #7340
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Unknowabley unknowable.
And formless.
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Old 27th April 2013, 03:01 AM   #7341
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And formless.
But massive enough to have an event horizon.
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Old 27th April 2013, 05:42 AM   #7342
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Oh, it's a big, heavy load of something, alright.
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Old 27th April 2013, 06:23 AM   #7343
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
This is not correct. I am not going to start explaining the mystical practice here as it will be ridiculed in the usual way. This would be a futile and less than constructive, time wasting exercise.
I can tell you exactly the outcomes of mystical experience is normal human everyday terms that have rational foundations. It is not so hard to do, all it takes is looking at it without the exaggeration. I started to write a spirituality book for sceptics, but have lost the drive to write, due to anti depressants and class work.

-'go look at the stars and wonder'
-'the rain falls of the just and unjust alike'
-'choices and consequence'
-'everything is connected'
-'everything is unique'
-'attitude matters'

Those were the six core principals
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Old 27th April 2013, 06:26 AM   #7344
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Its not provable. You are aware presumably about the behavior of some posters on this forum?
I can prove every one of my stated six principals.

Now the unstated ones which I was still working on:

-'some take the flashlight of enlightenment and stare into it'
-'the world contains moments of joy and terror, kindness and abuse'
-'imagination is amazing'
-'some connections are not valid perceptions'

are not as well simplified by me.
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Old 27th April 2013, 06:32 AM   #7345
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First of all, my apologies for the delayed response. Life happens.

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
OK. there must be some major misunderstanding going on here, because what you have just described in the yellow highlighted part appears to be such a close carbon copy of what I've actually said that it looks just as if you had taken those words from my earlier posts lol!
It's certainly possible that there's some misunderstanding here. It's also worth pointing out that there are a number of things that we weren't actually in disagreement about that you seemed to think we were in disagreement about, disregarding forays into sniping.

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
But then we get to the red bit saying " When you spoke of whether one can create nothing from something, it's simply missing the point,..." I don’t think ever any such thing .... where did I say that??
Seriously? No, at this point, I don't feel like rummaging through the previous pages of discussion to quote you.

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
What I've been describing is why, according to Hawking via Heisenberg, you can never have any such thing as truly "empty space" in our universe.

What does that mean? It means that the fields and particles which compose what we call "space", must always exist ... you cannot ever erase them. You can change their form amongst various energetic interactions, but you cannot cancel them all to zero simultaneously.
Of course, we could point to part of this as one of the many lesser examples of the previously cited thing. "You cannot ever erase them." In short, discussing 'whether you can create nothing from something.' I'm fairly certain that there are better examples, but I don't consider it worth the effort to find them.

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Now waaaay back in this thread punshh complained about the word "always" in my phrase "always existed". But that's semantics from him, and very trivial too. As I said to him at the time "if you don't like the word "always", then just get rid of it and simply say the universe existed in one energetic form or other".
And I wasn't disputing anything particularly relevant to this. I simply found the HUP, given the explanations given and found, to not be as relevant to the question as more basic answers.

EDIT: Just to be clear on a related matter, I'm only disputing the relevance of the HUP. I am in agreement with the relevance of a number of the other points that you've presented with regards to the question(s) that were being dealt with.
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Old 27th April 2013, 06:52 AM   #7346
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
This is not correct. I am not going to start explaining the mystical practice here as it will be ridiculed in the usual way. This would be a futile and less than constructive, time wasting exercise.
Much of what you say is ridiculed, so it's unlikely that your decision to remain silent regarding the mystical practice hinges on the notion that the explanation will be ridiculed. Rather than silence your critics with demonstrable truths or unassailable logic, you wrap yourself in secrecy and hide your practices. You know who else did that? That's right: Hitler! Nyuk, nyuk... Sorry. My inner seventh grader got the best of me there for a minute.

In any event, you involve yourself in obtaining knowledge that can, in principle, have absolutely no impact on the universe, so it's unlikely that you're concerned about wasting time. It's much more likely that any explanation put forth would be a steaming pile of vacuousness. Secret knowledge of the unknowable... You seem like a bright guy. Why do you cling to such tripe?
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Old 27th April 2013, 09:30 AM   #7347
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Old 28th April 2013, 04:12 AM   #7348
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Science is a tool which produces data. The interpretation, evaluation and application of that data is done by something else not called science. The interpretation is done by a rational philosophy of science, which is a mental process of thinking. The philosophical process of determining what can be said and what cannot be said is key to this interpretation. The evaluation is a more philosophical process of rational thought involving weighing and integrating ideas. The application is a philosophical process with more of an involvement of sociology, ethics and politics to name a few.

Wisdom is an old fashioned word which encapsulates these processes in one word. ...
You lost me at the bit I hilited.
Also, what is "a mental process of thinking"?
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Old 28th April 2013, 06:29 AM   #7349
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Also, what is "a mental process of thinking"?
Analogous to 'a perambulating process of walking' and a 'slumbering process of sleeping'.

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Old 29th April 2013, 12:55 AM   #7350
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
Science makes predictions about the unknown all the time. It's one of the defining characteristics of science.
I'd like to vote for the science party, as scientists must know what is the best way forward for our country. Unfortunately they don't stand for election, all I can do is vote for the next best party.

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Old 29th April 2013, 12:57 AM   #7351
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Then how do you know it exists?
Its a philosophical position, if someone holds that position, then it exists as a philosophical position.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:00 AM   #7352
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Please provide proof that there is a reality beyond our minds.
You can touch it.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:03 AM   #7353
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
You can touch it.
I doubt that.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:04 AM   #7354
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Its a philosophical position, if someone holds that position, then it exists as a philosophical position.
I agree, but it does not exist in reality. It exists only in the mind of that some one.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:06 AM   #7355
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I'd like to vote for the science party, as scientists must know what is the best way forward for our country. Unfortunately they don't stand for election, all I can do is vote for the next best party.
You do know that science and politics are two different things? Which mystical party did you vote for at the last general election?
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:07 AM   #7356
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
You lost me at the bit I hilited.
Also, what is "a mental process of thinking"?
I was summarizing the role of philosophy, ie the study of what we can say and what we can't say (amongst other things).

I used the phrase "a mental process of thinking" to refer to the process in which data is accessed, considered and retained, or used in some way, by the mind of the scientist.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:11 AM   #7357
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I agree, but it does not exist in reality. It exists only in the mind of that some one.
Exactly, just like the way the big bang theory exists in the mind of people.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:12 AM   #7358
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Its a philosophical position, if someone holds that position, then it exists as a philosophical position.
Your claim is that "mystical practice" is merely a philosophical position and has no relation to objective reality? In that case, gentlehorse's description of it as being concerned with "[...]things that do not interact in any way with the universe[...]" is accurate, rather than inaccurate, as you claimed.
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Old 29th April 2013, 01:14 AM   #7359
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Exactly, just like the way the big bang theory exists in the mind of people.
No. The Big Bang happened. If you disagree, please tell us about your alternative theory.

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Old 29th April 2013, 01:15 AM   #7360
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I was summarizing the role of philosophy, ie the study of what we can say and what we can't say (amongst other things).

I used the phrase "a mental process of thinking" to refer to the process in which data is accessed, considered and retained, or used in some way, by the mind of the scientist.
Name a non-mental process of thinking.
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