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20th May 2012, 07:01 PM | #1321 |
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http://philofreligion.homestead.com/files/timeless.htm
God's bringing about the universe is the total and direct dependence of the contingent universe on the divine will. Such a relation of dependence does not require that God be located in time. Thus, divine timeless action is not incoherent. http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billc...s/grunbau.html The Creator may be conceived to be causally, but not temporally, prior to the origin of the universe, such that the act of causing the universe to begin to exist is simultaneous with its beginning to exist. Contemporary philosophical discussions of causal directionality deal routinely with cases in which cause and effect are simultaneous; indeed, a good case can be made that all temporal causal relations involve the simultaneity of cause and effect. |
20th May 2012, 07:02 PM | #1322 |
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20th May 2012, 07:04 PM | #1323 |
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20th May 2012, 07:04 PM | #1324 |
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20th May 2012, 07:07 PM | #1325 |
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Hitler justified his morality also based on reason. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist. And there cannot be objectively right and wrong. No atheist has a moral base to condemn rape, murder, theft etc. If someone helds these things as desirable and good, thats just a different , equally valid opinion.
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20th May 2012, 07:08 PM | #1326 |
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And true Scotsman don't put sugar on their portage.
I'm sorry, but at this point I can only assume you're either 1) too blinded by your delusions to be able to formulate a coherent argument, or 2) a troll. Either way, the fact that you literally stated a logical fallacy in its most basic form is proof that further discussion with you is pointless. |
20th May 2012, 07:08 PM | #1327 |
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20th May 2012, 07:08 PM | #1328 |
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For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing |
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20th May 2012, 07:09 PM | #1329 |
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20th May 2012, 07:10 PM | #1330 |
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For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing |
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20th May 2012, 07:11 PM | #1331 |
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How do you come to the conclusion that objective morality, if it exists, depends on God. Really, why are they contingent on each other? For everyone who says this they're just as inclined to say that God is "unknowable" or that we cannot understand Him (GWIMW) but they are so damned sure that objective morality exists AND it is contingent on God. But you tie them together...why? Really... why can't God exist, and objective morality not exist? That's FAR more defensible a position. Why can God NOT exist but objective morality still can?
I don't see why this is a tenable hypothesis at all. They require circular logic. And when you realize that GIBHOR you can see why you asserting that atheists have no moral base is just dishonest and stupid. A person, regardless of religion has biological faculties that facilitate social experiences, and they're actually kind of variable. It's proof of subjective morality, not objective morality. The only way objective morality could exist is if we say "it exists because I say it does" and that is a valueless statement. To try to make it exist by tying it to God is subversive. I guess my overall question is how the hell philosophers allow such an untenable conclusion like "objective morality exists and is contingent to God" make its way into their discussions. |
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20th May 2012, 07:12 PM | #1332 |
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20th May 2012, 07:12 PM | #1333 |
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For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing |
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20th May 2012, 07:16 PM | #1334 |
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Fact is that our intern moral code says the Ten Commandments in the bible are right.
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20th May 2012, 07:19 PM | #1335 |
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GIBHOR,
Why do you assume God (your particular god) must represent absolute morality? Why can't he represent absolute evil, or a mix of the two? An all powerful god, who created all things (the god you believe in) need not be ethical, or kind, or moral. He need only be good with quantum physics. In fact, any reading of the bible indicates your god is indeed evil, and very cruel. How do you know the god you worship is worthy of your devotion- perhaps he was an evil creator, or not the creator god at all? How do you even know that the bible was written by the god who created the universe, rather than some usurper who has the creator god locked away in his basement? |
20th May 2012, 07:19 PM | #1336 |
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Not only to protect these babies, but to protect the Jews, which were to live in Canaan. They would adopt the same practices, and that would be in the long run worse, and cause more suffer and harm. God used the Jews to execute a just judgement of these folks, for all their sins.
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20th May 2012, 07:20 PM | #1337 |
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For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing |
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20th May 2012, 07:22 PM | #1338 |
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20th May 2012, 07:23 PM | #1339 |
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For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing |
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20th May 2012, 07:23 PM | #1340 |
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Why shouldn't there be morality if God doesn't exist? Since when does just his existence mean anything? It isn't just God's existence that matters, but what God does for people (if the stories of Exodus are to be believed even though they are utter lies) God gave rules (more than 10, but I'm sure you know that...having read the Bible and all -.-) and only THEN should there have been morals.
The only other morals that COULD have existed were "don't eat the friggin' apple" beforehand, right? No, this merger of aristotilian/Ayn Rand philosophy with religion doesn't work GIBHOR. Also we did accept polygamic marriages, sex outside of marriage blah blah blah for a long time in human history. Social trends make them less attractive even though they still happen, dunno what that says about your objective morality and conscience playing a role, but it probably brutally executes it on the front lawn of the house of Reason. And human history preceded God by a good bit too (since YHWH again was pulled out of the asses of tribesmen around 700 BCE) Philosophy AND history aren't on your side here GIBHOR, and truthfully even your religious book isn't either. |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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20th May 2012, 07:24 PM | #1341 |
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20th May 2012, 07:25 PM | #1342 |
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20th May 2012, 07:25 PM | #1343 |
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20th May 2012, 07:27 PM | #1344 |
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20th May 2012, 07:29 PM | #1345 |
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20th May 2012, 07:30 PM | #1346 |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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20th May 2012, 07:30 PM | #1347 |
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For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing |
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20th May 2012, 07:30 PM | #1348 |
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No, i don't think so. According to the second law , if the universe would be eternal, we would be in a state of heath death.
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20th May 2012, 07:30 PM | #1349 |
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20th May 2012, 07:32 PM | #1350 |
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20th May 2012, 07:32 PM | #1351 |
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20th May 2012, 07:33 PM | #1352 |
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20th May 2012, 07:35 PM | #1353 |
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Black holes must be a mind killer for you.
Originally Posted by GIBHOR
Consider Euthyphro... |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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20th May 2012, 07:41 PM | #1354 |
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GIBHOR,
If you choose to reply to even one of my posts, please reply to 1335. I am very curious how, even if there is an absolute morality, that your god must be moral rather than immoral. You do not get to say he can decide whatever he wants is moral because he created the universe. I created a fish tank and stocked it with fish- I do not have the moral right to slowly boil the fish to death. How do you know the bible that you worship was written by the "creator" god; perhaps the bible was written by the devil and placed on Earth to deceive people like you? |
20th May 2012, 07:53 PM | #1355 |
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This isn't a rational response to my post.
So slavery is only relatively bad? Some objective view of morality. As dictated primarily by societal norms. Why else did slavery persist so long? because it what keeps society functioning. great questions. I don't think sex out of marriage is bad. in fact i think it is quite good. Polygamy can be bad as it tends to lead to inequality of the parties involved. but of course, that's up for debate. your statement exposes more about your "morality" than it does about rational thought. If you believe the genocide by the jews is defendable by rational thought, I challenge you to make that argument. I find it laughably absurd and disgusting you think otherwise. Here's a brief hint: There is nothing rational about racism or antisemitism. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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20th May 2012, 07:55 PM | #1356 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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20th May 2012, 08:00 PM | #1357 |
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Oh yes, that stopped all the atrocities against Jews! Oh wait, weren't we talking about Hitler just now? I guess after commanding the Jews to kill all the Canaanites, the rest of God's advice against future genocides got misplaced.
Not to mention the obvious- God is all powerful- why couldn't he just move the Canaanites over to North America, or soften their hearts toward the Jews (don't tell me about "free will"- God hardened the heart of Pharaoh against the Jews in Exodus, so he could do the opposite to the Canaanites). |
20th May 2012, 08:29 PM | #1358 |
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20th May 2012, 08:36 PM | #1359 |
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Was that a joke or do you want me to get mad at you =\
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect Besides, GIBHOR is arguing for a supernatural state of "nothing"; one that is consequenceless. It's actually kind of funny. GIBHOR has to use magic so he can make a God have to exist so that He can then do more magic -.- it does nothing to solve infinite regress too. |
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"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
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20th May 2012, 08:41 PM | #1360 |
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It was me sucking at spelling. I've been up since 4 am, and 8 years of nuns couldn't fix my spelling...
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