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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 25th April 2018, 10:46 AM   #3281
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
More lies from TJMK yesterday:


http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

As we know, Sollecito was actually acquitted in that trial and Mignini withdrew his lawsuit. PQ claimed last Oct. that RS and AG would have to "apologize publicly" to Mignini and that it was coming soon. We're still waiting six months later.

I don't know who wrote that false claim in the article as it's attributed to "TJMK Main Posters", but whoever did is clearly delusional. Facts just don't seem to matter to those few remaining TJMK nutters.
One thing that is safe to bet is that from this point on 100% of guilters will believe that Mignini had actually won his defamation suit - as well as the parallel criminal case - of defamation against Gumbel and Sollecito.

It won't matter that neither is true. It won't matter that the only media report from Italy was that both actions had been dropped.

It will go uncommented on, and forgotten that Peter Quennell had predicted the reason for this had been because Sollecito and Gumbel had agreed to apologize in lieu of convictions.

It will go uncommented on, and forgotten that Sollecito and Gumbel never did apologize.

It'll be forgotten until six month's later, PQ on his website announces that Sollecito and Gumbel had been convicted back then afterall!

You can't make this stuff up. The guilter-PR shaming campaign will continue nonetheless. I mean "several people" think Sollecito and Gumbel were found guilty for defamation......

...... so I'm convinced. I'm changing sides.
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Old 25th April 2018, 10:50 AM   #3282
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Vixen, why are you avoiding answering my question? For your convenience once again: why did the prosecution fail to provide a single student from the crowd of costumed students Curatolo said were lined up waiting for busses or a single bus company running those busses on Nov. 1?
Maybe Vixen could also answer why did the prosecution and PGP use the testimony of someone who provided Amanda and Raffaele with an alibi at the time of the murder and was damaging to the prosecution's case. Doesn't this indicate there was so little evidence against Amanda and Raffaele and such a a weak case the prosecution and PGP were so desperate they were prepared to use evidence which undermined their case.
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Old 25th April 2018, 10:56 AM   #3283
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
A reason to discount Curatolo from the start is not just that they dug him up months after the crime, but that from Piazza Grimana he had no clear sightline to the cottage.

The unintentional hilarious response from the PR-campaign? That "several people" said they themselves could see the cottage from there.

Who are these "several people"? The alleger-in-question didn't say.

Was one of them Curatolo? If it had been, all it would take is for anyone other than these "several" to stand in Piazza Grimana and see for themselves. Or load Google maps, street view.

What's tragic is that proving these "several people" wrong makes no difference. Like whack-a-mole, we simply move on to the next factoid......

...... eventually cycling back to Curatolo for the same claim of "several people" as if it had not been debunked in every of the 20+ Continuations of ISF/JREF since 2011.

Ultimately it's not about "the guilters supporting their arguments". They just like engaging in shaming campaigns.
As you noted, easy enough to use Google Maps to see the cottage is not visible from Piazza Grimana. There are large buildings directly inline with the cottage.

View from above.. no clear sight line.


View from Via degli Scortici, with the basketball court above and to the left of where the photo is taken. It's obviously impossible to see the cottage.
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Old 25th April 2018, 10:58 AM   #3284
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
One thing that is safe to bet is that from this point on 100% of guilters will believe that Mignini had actually won his defamation suit - as well as the parallel criminal case - of defamation against Gumbel and Sollecito.

It won't matter that neither is true. It won't matter that the only media report from Italy was that both actions had been dropped.
It will go uncommented on, and forgotten that Peter Quennell had predicted the reason for this had been because Sollecito and Gumbel had agreed to apologize in lieu of convictions.

It will go uncommented on, and forgotten that Sollecito and Gumbel never did apologize.

It'll be forgotten until six month's later, PQ on his website announces that Sollecito and Gumbel had been convicted back then afterall!

You can't make this stuff up. The guilter-PR shaming campaign will continue nonetheless. I mean "several people" think Sollecito and Gumbel were found guilty for defamation......

...... so I'm convinced. I'm changing sides.
Only Mignini's action was dropped. The other action resulted in an acquittal because the "fact did not exist".
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Old 25th April 2018, 11:04 AM   #3285
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
As you noted, easy enough to use Google Maps to see the cottage is not visible from Piazza Grimana. There are large buildings directly inline with the cottage.

View from above.. no clear sight line.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0be0f9609b.jpg

View from Via degli Scortici, with the basketball court above and to the left of where the photo is taken. It's obviously impossible to see the cottage.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0be0fce05f.jpg
Clearly Google maps are shills of the massive million dollar PR campaign, the Mafia, and the Masons. Sheesh!
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Old 25th April 2018, 11:39 AM   #3286
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Clearly Google maps are shills of the massive million dollar PR campaign, the Mafia, and the Masons. Sheesh!
That's the first thing that crossed my mind. I mean, I never traveled to Perugia like Naseer did (I did drive by the Ramsey house when I was on a business trip to Boulder, but I limit my obsession to domestic travel only) but based on my virtual trip around Piazza Grimana, there seems to be no way to explain away that big light salmon colored building that completely blocks any possible view of the cottage. Of course, I'm willing to be educated by Naseer, or Vixen for that matter, about where I could be standing in Piazza Grimana or the basketball court and see the cottage, but at the moment I'm thinking those Mafia agents working for Google have done an awesome job of fooling me.
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Old 25th April 2018, 11:41 AM   #3287
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Only Mignini's action was dropped. The other action resulted in an acquittal because the "fact did not exist".
I stand (sit) corrected.
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Old 25th April 2018, 11:44 AM   #3288
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
It is necessary for Vixen and other members of the PMF/TJMK hate sites to portray Amanda as killing Meredith in a pre-meditated murder because it a pre-meditated murder is worse than a murder done in the heat of the moment and the idea of a pre-meditated murder helps in their image of portraying Amanda as Evil. PGP due to their gross stupidity don’t consider the problems with a pre-meditated scenario. A major problem with a pre-meditated scenario is why would Amanda want to kill Meredith? The nutjobs at TJMK portray Amanda has having a pathological hatred of Meredith which would explain a pre-meditated scenario. The problem is there was no evidence Amanda had any resentment towards Meredith. No witnesses have come forward to say Amanda had shown any hostility or aggression towards Meredith or Amanda had said anything negative about Meredith. No witnesses came forward to say there were arguments between Meredith and Amanda. The link below shows testimony from several witnesses to say the relationship between Meredith and Amanda was good. The link also shows friendly texts between Meredith and Amanda. If Amanda had a pathological hatred of Meredith and had made this hatred clear, would Meredith exchange friendly texts ending with kisses with Amanda.? If Amanda had a good relationship with Meredith and there was no evidence of any animosity from Amanda towards Meredith, why would Amanda want to kill Meredith?
What link?
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Old 25th April 2018, 12:12 PM   #3289
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
What link?
This is the link along with the rest of my post. I copied and pasted my post from word and I missed the bottom part of my post.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda...ehavior-myths/

Another question is when did Amanda decide to kill Meredith? Was this before or after she met Raffaele? Amanda and Raffaele had only been dating six days. How could a couple who barely knew each other build up enough trust to commit murder together? When in their six day relationship did Amanda and Raffaele decide to kill Meredith? If Amanda and Raffaele had planned to murder Meredith, how did Guede become involved as both Amanda and Raffaele had no relationship with Guede?
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Old 25th April 2018, 01:38 PM   #3290
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
This is the link along with the rest of my post. I copied and pasted my post from word and I missed the bottom part of my post.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda...ehavior-myths/

Another question is when did Amanda decide to kill Meredith?
Was this before or after she met Raffaele? Amanda and Raffaele had only been dating six days. How could a couple who barely knew each other build up enough trust to commit murder together? When in their six day relationship did Amanda and Raffaele decide to kill Meredith? If Amanda and Raffaele had planned to murder Meredith, how did Guede become involved as both Amanda and Raffaele had no relationship with Guede?
The guilter-PR campaign says the decision to kill was as Rudy had been assaulting the victim. So it's even more bizarre - the language barrier was a non-issue in that sense.

Given that Vixen believes that Raffaele's kitchen knife had been brought along with intent to kill, and that both AK and RS had plans for the 1st - canceled at last minute - it's only then that they had opportunity to go get Rudy, who Raffaele didn't know and who Knox couldn't communicate with.

100% of guilter theories have these sorts of roadblocks built in. It's why they refuse to put a timeline together.
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:01 PM   #3291
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DNA transfer in the Lukis Anderson case

This is an article from the Marshall project on the Lukis Anderson case. He was nearly convicted of a homicide, but he was almost comatose from alcohol consumption at the time IIUC. The same paramedics who worked on him were the ones who later went to the burglary/homicide in San Jose. The most likely scenario is secondary transfer via the pulse oximeter, but the article indicates, "It may never be known for sure."
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:02 PM   #3292
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
1. It's remarkable that the guilters cannot accept that Italian law allows the CSC to review, on appeal, a motivation report and other court documents to determine whether or not the reasoning (the grounds of the judgment = inferences and interpretations of evidence) was lacking, contradictory or illogical, in accordance with CPP Article 606.1E.

Partly this is remarkable because the Chieffi CSC panel used this provision a number of times in their quashing of the Hellmann appeal court acquittal of Knox and Sollecito for the murder/rape of Kercher, and the guilters love that quashing, even though its logic was itself faulty, while they object to its use by the Marasca CSC panel.

2. The Nencini appeal court, although in appearance directed to a verdict of guilt, was by law (CPP Article 627.2) free to pronounce a verdict of acquittal, as long as it reinterpreted the evidence in a way that overcame the Chieffi CSC panel objections to Hellmann. As you indicate, that might have been difficult. However, since according to the Italian system, the appeal of the Nencini case would go to a different CSC panel (not to the Chieffi panel), the Nencini appeal court was not necessarily practically bound to follow Chieffi in every illogical or unscientific detail. It could have used the additional DNA profiling of the knife blade, which was exculpatory for Knox, as evidence, added to the Hellmann court approach, supporting an acquittal. This would be arguably a new interpretation of the evidence, since it would include evidence not available to Hellmann.

3. The guilters simply cannot support their arguments against Knox or Sollecito by the facts of Italian procedural law or the evidence of the case. That is why their clumsy attempts at misrepresentation are so (unintentionally?) hilarious.
The Italian Supreme Court contravened articles 617 & 628 of their own judicial code to illegally acquit Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.


Please don't try to argue otherwise.
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:04 PM   #3293
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Italian Supreme Court contravened articles 617 & 628 of their own judicial code to illegally acquit Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.


Please don't try to argue otherwise.
At least you admit the Italian court acquitted them!

Who says people can't make progress....
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:05 PM   #3294
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
A reason to discount Curatolo from the start is not just that they dug him up months after the crime, but that from Piazza Grimana he had no clear sightline to the cottage.

The unintentional hilarious response from the PR-campaign? That "several people" said they themselves could see the cottage from there.

Who are these "several people"? The alleger-in-question didn't say.

Was one of them Curatolo? If it had been, all it would take is for anyone other than these "several" to stand in Piazza Grimana and see for themselves. Or load Google maps, street view.

What's tragic is that proving these "several people" wrong makes no difference. Like whack-a-mole, we simply move on to the next factoid......

...... eventually cycling back to Curatolo for the same claim of "several people" as if it had not been debunked in every of the 20+ Continuations of ISF/JREF since 2011.

Ultimately it's not about "the guilters supporting their arguments". They just like engaging in shaming campaigns.
Quit your spin. What was actually said was that several photos of Toto's clear - night-time -view had been seen.

Do keep up!
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:10 PM   #3295
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Vixen, why are you avoiding answering my question? For your convenience once again: why did the prosecution fail to provide a single student from the crowd of costumed students Curatolo said were lined up waiting for busses or a single bus company running those busses on Nov. 1?
How do you know? In any serious crime scene there are literally hundreds of potential pieces of evidence. (There is a list of 498 physical exhibits alone, for example.)

Only evidence that is relevant to the case comes up at trials.

Broadly, int he preliminary case management hearings, all parties will argue what they want presented as an issue, and this is then listed.

Clearly, neither side considered the bus passengers an issue.

Did you think a trial just gets thrown together at random?
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:17 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Quit your spin. What was actually said was that several photos of Toto's clear - night-time -view had been seen.

Do keep up!
No, you said "several people".

Regardless. The cottage cannot be seen from Piazza Grimana. It makes no difference who does or does not "keep up".
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:38 PM   #3297
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
As you noted, easy enough to use Google Maps to see the cottage is not visible from Piazza Grimana. There are large buildings directly inline with the cottage.

View from above.. no clear sight line.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0be0f9609b.jpg

View from Via degli Scortici, with the basketball court above and to the left of where the photo is taken. It's obviously impossible to see the cottage.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0be0fce05f.jpg
It's a pity you didn't turn up at the trial clutching these photos.

Shame really, neither defence nor prosecution challenged Toto's description of the viewpoints.

You could have had a Perry Mason moment.

Scene: Court room Perugia, In the witness box Curatalo is being cross-examined. He's been there all morning and several people are dozing off. The Knox/Mellas family wearing skimpy shorts and vests are mucking about taking selfies and laughing loudly. Loud snoring emanates from the back.

<fx Suddenly the courtroom doors burst open>

TRUTH CALLS (for it is he): Stop! Hold it!

JUDGE <fx bangs gavel> Order! Order in court!

TRUTH CALLS: I have some last minute evidence Your Honour! I ran all the way to the airport and flew 7,000 miles and ran all the way here-

JUDGE <fx fixes the interloper with a glare> Well, you had better spit it out then! Vacate the witness box!

<fx Curatalo is led down>

TRUTH CALLS: Well Your Honour -

JUDGE: Don't call me 'Your Honour'. You're not in America now. Stand up straight and put a shirt on.

<fx short adjournment whilst the witness properly attires himself.>

TRUTH CALLS: <fx takes oath confirms name and address> Your Honour- er, M'Lud. I was surfing Google images when I made an amazing discovery. It was like a 'hallelujah' moment M'Lud. You know, rather like when Newton discovered gravity when an apple dropped on his head, or the guy who visualised the structure of the benzene molecule in a flash of inspiration, or when Archimedes had his Eureka! moment -

JUDGE: Get on with it! We haven't got all day.

TRUTH CALLS: <fx dramatically produces a couple of scrunched up papers from his pocket> Sorry M'Lud, they're a bit screwed up, hot dang, as I was sitting on a plane for seven hours, but take a look, ya'all, er, M'Lud -

JUDGE <fx snatches papers out of witness' hand> -So?

TRUTH CALLS <fx face flushed, chest bursting out> It proves, M'Lud...

<fx pregnant pause full of tension as entire courtroom holds its breath [apart from sundry snoring]>

...That Curatalo, the lazy two-bit hill billy bum punk dope piece of -

JUDGE: Get on with it!

TRUTH CALLS: - cannot have seen what the two figures were looking at and could not have seen the men in their forensic suits next day and nor could the cottage be seen from the railings so those two wonderful beautiful people could not have been keeping watch over the cottage -

<fx stunned silence and then pandemonium breaks out.>

JUDGE <fx bangs gavel> Order! Order! Send this man down and charge him with contempt of court.

Witness is dragged away delirious, singing 'I fought the law and the law won, I fought the law and the law won'...

<fades>
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Last edited by Vixen; 25th April 2018 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:43 PM   #3298
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Quit your spin. What was actually said was that several photos of Toto's clear - night-time -view had been seen.

Do keep up!
You cannot even be honest about the simplest thing:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3075

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
I suspect that Curatolo didn't see anything but he wasn't technically"lying". He may well have believed what he later claimed. The credibility of a longtime heroin addled brain of a man I suspect had additional mental problems coupled with a journalist out to make a name for himself by finding not one, not two, but three "witnesses" in this high profile case is very suspect.
Originally Posted by Vixen
He did. Several people have been to the former Piazza Grimana and verified there is a clear view of the cottage from where Toto sat.
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:47 PM   #3299
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's a pity you didn't turn up at the trial clutching these photos.

Shame really, neither defence nor prosecution challenged Toto's description of the viewpoints.
Curatolo's comments were trashed by the Hellmann court. The whole idea of Curatolo offering anything meaningful was trashed by the final Supreme Court - which even you, now, admit acquitted the pair.

And this is BEFORE considering that the Supreme Court came to the correct conclusion that the Nencini court had erred in using Curatolo, in that the latter tended to offer evidence to acquit the pair....
Originally Posted by Marasca-Bruno
The judge a quo [of the trial from which this appeal is being heard] then committed a clear error in the evaluation of the witness Curatolo, not realising that the statements of the witness were rather favourable to the accused, especially in so far as he reported seeing the two lovers in Piazza Grimana from 21.30 to 24.00. There was, therefore, a contradiction within the judgment: it was not true what is claimed on page 50 regarding the lack of favourable evidence that might help confirm that the two defendants were, from 21.30 until about 12.30 of the next day, in a different place than the scene of the murder.
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:51 PM   #3300
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
You cannot even be honest about the simplest thing:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3075
Several photos by several people who have been there in person.

I have never been there.
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:58 PM   #3301
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Several photos by several people who have been there in person.

I have never been there.
You've been lied to. You can check Google maps street view.
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:19 PM   #3302
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you know? In any serious crime scene there are literally hundreds of potential pieces of evidence. (There is a list of 498 physical exhibits alone, for example.)

Only evidence that is relevant to the case comes up at trials.

Broadly, int he preliminary case management hearings, all parties will argue what they want presented as an issue, and this is then listed.

Clearly, neither side considered the bus passengers an issue.

Did you think a trial just gets thrown together at random?
How do I know what? That there were no crowds of costumed students lining up for disco busses? Well......I, and any logical person with more than half a brain, would know because not a single witness to this alleged crowd nor a bus company representative on Nov. 1 was presented in court to testify to it. Not one.

Clearly you haven't thought this through because your response could have been that the prosecution didn't know before Curatolo got on the stand that he was going to go down in flames when he added in the Halloween party bit to his story. Therefore, they didn't know they were going to have to present evidence that there were, indeed, costumed students in the piazza on Nov. 1. Curatolo went rogue on them. Instead, we get the nonsense you wrote. However, AFTER Curatolo sprung this little surprise on them, the prosecution could still have found at least one person to back up Curatolo and save their 'star' witness...if what he said had been true. But, since it was all in his drug addled imagination, they couldn't and didn't.
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:23 PM   #3303
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How do I know what? That there were no crowds of costumed students lining up for disco busses? Well......I, and any logical person with more than half a brain, would know because not a single witness to this alleged crowd nor a bus company representative on Nov. 1 was presented in court to testify to it. Not one.

Clearly you haven't thought this through because your response could have been that the prosecution didn't know before Curatolo got on the stand that he was going to go down in flames when he added in the Halloween party bit to his story. Therefore, they didn't know they were going to have to present evidence that there were, indeed, costumed students in the piazza on Nov. 1. Curatolo went rogue on them. Instead, we get the nonsense you wrote. However, AFTER Curatolo sprung this little surprise on them, the prosecution could still have found at least one person to back up Curatolo and save their 'star' witness...if what he said had been true. But, since it was all in his drug addled imagination, they couldn't and didn't.
Pay attention. The answer to your question which was, 'how come police didn't find any partygoers'?
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:31 PM   #3304
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Several photos by several people who have been there in person.

I have never been there.
Would you care to provide a link to these several photos by several people?

My friend has been to Perugia. I double checked with her today and she said there was no way that Curatolo could have seen the gates to the cottage driveway or the cottage from the benches in Piazza Grimana. There is a large building blocking the view from the piazza benches. She said the only place from where the gate is visible is if he were sitting on the stone wall that surrounds the basketball court. But that is not where Curatolo claims he was sitting which was on his bench in P. Grimana.

This same friend and I are planning a trip to Italy, including Perugia, next April or May. I'll look myself and get back to you. But unless they've moved Piazza Grimana, the buildings or the gates to the cottage, they still won't be visible.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 25th April 2018 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:41 PM   #3305
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Vixen, why are you avoiding answering my question? For your convenience once again: why did the prosecution fail to provide a single student from the crowd of costumed students Curatolo said were lined up waiting for busses or a single bus company running those busses on Nov. 1?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you know? In any serious crime scene there are literally hundreds of potential pieces of evidence. (There is a list of 498 physical exhibits alone, for example.)

Only evidence that is relevant to the case comes up at trials.

Broadly, int he preliminary case management hearings, all parties will argue what they want presented as an issue, and this is then listed.

Clearly, neither side considered the bus passengers an issue.

Did you think a trial just gets thrown together at random?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Pay attention. The answer to your question which was, 'how come police didn't find any partygoers'?
Hmmmmm... I asked you why no witnesses were presented by the prosecution supporting Curatolo's claim. You countered with "How do you know?" How is that an answer to my question?
Are you seriously suggesting there were witnesses but the prosecution didn't find them relevant to the case? You really need to learn when to stop digging.
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:42 PM   #3306
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Throughout all of this, I have mostly lurked and only posted at the most egregious errors.

As to all of you who have posted with endless patience with the ignorant, I bow to you.

Were it me, by now I would have told some posters to foxtrot right oscar.

Nevertheless, kudos to those who have been honest and adhered to honesty. You know who you are without saying. there remain those who have claimed to be experts in medi, Italian law matters, legal matters, technical engineering matters, forensics, US law, UK law, et al on the basis of being an accountant. Maybe. I don't believe that either.

In any event, I hurl kudos at the patience, attention to detail, and subject matter knowledge, and the vast citations that everyone of you applied to the matter at hand.
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:48 PM   #3307
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Would you care to provide a link to these several photos by several people?

My friend has been to Perugia. I double checked with her today and she said there was no way that Curatolo could have seen the gates to the cottage driveway or the cottage from the benches in Piazza Grimana. There is a large building blocking the view from the piazza benches. She said the only place from where the gate is visible is if he were sitting on the stone wall that surrounds the basketball court. But that is not where Curatolo claims he was sitting which was on his bench in P. Grimana.

This same friend and I are planning a trip to Italy, including Perugia, next April or May. I'll look myself and get back to you. But unless they've moved Piazza Grimana, the buildings or the gates to the cottage, they still won't be visible.
You are not familiar with the case. Curatalo said the pair were at the railings which look towards the cottage.

He did see the forensic police next day and did describe them.
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:52 PM   #3308
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are not familiar with the case. Curatalo said the pair were at the railings which look towards the cottage.

He did see the forensic police next day and did describe them.
Why do you keep changing the items within this issue? It is dizzying trying to keep up with your claims.

First several people. Then several photos. Then several people who took several photos.

Goalpost moving 'r us.
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Old 25th April 2018, 04:56 PM   #3309
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Would you care to provide a link to these several photos by several people?

My friend has been to Perugia. I double checked with her today and she said there was no way that Curatolo could have seen the gates to the cottage driveway or the cottage from the benches in Piazza Grimana. There is a large building blocking the view from the piazza benches. She said the only place from where the gate is visible is if he were sitting on the stone wall that surrounds the basketball court. But that is not where Curatolo claims he was sitting which was on his bench in P. Grimana.

This same friend and I are planning a trip to Italy, including Perugia, next April or May. I'll look myself and get back to you. But unless they've moved Piazza Grimana, the buildings or the gates to the cottage, they still won't be visible.

I also think the evidence strongly suggests that Curatolo couldn't have been able to see the cottage from his stated seating point in the square.

But I equally think it's very important to bear four things in mind in respect to this issue:

1) Curatolo never claimed to have seen Knox and Sollecito go in or out of the cottage, so to a certain degree this point was moot in any case.

2) The prosecution and the convicting courts primarily used Curatolo to discredit Knox and Sollecito, and specifically their alibi that they'd been together alone in Sollecito's apartment all evening/night. The thinking went: if Curatolo had indeed seen them over a period of a few hours in and near the square on that evening/night, then obviously they were lying about having been in Sollecito's apartment all that time. And by extension and implication: why would they be lying about this unless they had consciousness of guilt. I doubt the prosecution/convicting courts even bothered that much whether the cottage really could be seen by Curatolo.

3) Even if Curatolo HAD been able to see the cottage from his position, this absolutely doesn't necessarily lend his claim any further credibility. As I pointed out with another example: if I claimed to have seen Prince Charles punch The Queen in the face in front of a certain window in Buckingham Palace, just because it could be verified that this particular window could have been seen by me from my claimed viewpoint near the front railings of the palace, this obviously doesn't necessarily lend my claim any particular credibility.

4) There are so very many other reasons to recognise that Curatolo's claims are utterly worthless - chief among which are his clear conflation of the night of the murder (Thursday 1st November) with the previous night of Halloween (Wednesday 31st October), his chronic abuse of Class A drugs (and his own admission that he would almost certainly have been using heroin on the evening/night of the murder), his attendant severe mental health issues, and the strong suggestion that he was beholden to the Perugia authorities on account of them holding a serious drug-dealing charge against him at that point. Oh, but he "smelled" kosher.....


And I think it also needs pointing out that (IMO) the defence teams made serious mistakes in the way they dealt with Curatolo's claims in the Massei trial (and, for that matter, in the Hellmann and Nencini trials). I've stated my belief in this many times before. At the very least, it would have been almost laughably easy for the defence to show the Massei court conclusively that Curatolo had conflated those two dates, simply by gathering the proper evidence from the out-of-town disco operators (both about their buses and about the fact that they all held big Halloween parties on the 31st but were all closed on the 1st), and by establishing that there absolutely could not have been large groups of students in costumes and masks in the square on the 1st. It appears - incredibly to me - that nobody among the defence teams thought to do even this in the many months leading up to the Massei trial.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:01 PM   #3310
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are not familiar with the case. Curatalo said the pair were at the railings which look towards the cottage.

He did see the forensic police next day and did describe them.

No. No. Wait a moment.

Your claim was that the cottage could be seen from where Curatolo said he was situated in the square. And you claimed that there were photos proving this. Are you now admitting this claim was wrong?

And whether or not Curatolo saw the forensic police (or "forensic police") the next day is entirely immaterial. For one thing, there would obviously have been great commotion and public excitement about what might be going on at the cottage - and it's likely that Curatolo may well have gone over to a point where he too could see what was happening. And for another thing, what Curatolo might or might not have seen - and been able to see - on 2nd November is wholly irrelevant to what he claims he saw on the evening/night of 1st November.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:08 PM   #3311
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[quote=LondonJohn;12271432]I also think the evidence strongly suggests that Curatolo couldn't have been able to see the cottage from his stated seating point in the square.

But I equally think it's very important to bear four things in mind in respect to this issue:

1) Curatolo never claimed to have seen Knox and Sollecito go in or out of the cottage, so to a certain degree this point was moot in any case.

2) The prosecution and the convicting courts primarily used Curatolo to discredit Knox and Sollecito, and specifically their alibi that they'd been together alone in Sollecito's apartment all evening/night. The thinking went: if Curatolo had indeed seen them over a period of a few hours in and near the square on that evening/night, then obviously they were lying about having been in Sollecito's apartment all that time. And by extension and implication: why would they be lying about this unless they had consciousness of guilt. I doubt the prosecution/convicting courts even bothered that much whether the cottage really could be seen by Curatolo.

3) Even if Curatolo HAD been able to see the cottage from his position, this absolutely doesn't necessarily lend his claim any further credibility. As I pointed out with another example: if I claimed to have seen Prince Charles punch The Queen in the face in front of a certain window in Buckingham Palace, just because it could be verified that this particular window could have been seen by me from my claimed viewpoint near the front railings of the palace, this obviously doesn't necessarily lend my claim any particular credibility.

4) There are so very many other reasons to recognise that Curatolo's claims are utterly worthless - chief among which are his clear conflation of the night of the murder (Thursday 1st November) with the previous night of Halloween (Wednesday 31st October), his chronic abuse of Class A drugs (and his own admission that he would almost certainly have been using heroin on the evening/night of the murder), his attendant severe mental health issues, and the strong suggestion that he was beholden to the Perugia authorities on account of them holding a serious drug-dealing charge against him at that point. Oh, but he "smelled" kosher.....


And I think it also needs pointing out that (IMO) the defence teams made serious mistakes in the way they dealt with Curatolo's claims in the Massei trial (and, for that matter, in the Hellmann and Nencini trials). I've stated my belief in this many times before. At the very least, it would have been almost laughably easy for the defence to show the Massei court conclusively that Curatolo had conflated those two dates, simply by gathering the proper evidence from the out-of-town disco operators (both about their buses and about the fact that they all held big Halloween parties on the 31st but were all closed on the 1st), and by establishing that there absolutely could not have been large groups of students in costumes and masks in the square on the 1st. It appears - incredibly to me - that nobody among the defence teams thought to do even this in the many months leading up to the Massei trial.[/QUOTE]

But the defense did do that as the large disco owners and the two private bus companies' owners testified in court that their parties were all on Oct. 31.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:09 PM   #3312
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
In any event, I hurl kudos at the patience, attention to detail, and subject matter knowledge, and the vast citations that everyone of you applied to the matter at hand.
I don't know any of those posting to this thread deserve this! The praise should go to the citations themselves.

As for whether or not Curatolo could have seen the cottage from Piazza Grimana, these are the views from the same spot at the corner of the road that the cottage is on, to where it turns up to the Piazza past the basketball court.



Above is the spot on that corner which shows the cottage below left, and the buildings between the cottage and the basketball court.



This is the same spot turned 90 degrees to the right, showing the brief uphill towards the basketball court (east end of it), and the way the road then turns sharply to the right.



This is the road which has turned to the west from the NE side of the basketball court and the Piazza Grimana is at the top of that hill to the left.

People can make up their own minds if the cottage can be seen from the Piazza.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:10 PM   #3313
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No. No. Wait a moment.

Your claim was that the cottage could be seen from where Curatolo said he was situated in the square. And you claimed that there were photos proving this. Are you now admitting this claim was wrong?

And whether or not Curatolo saw the forensic police (or "forensic police") the next day is entirely immaterial. For one thing, there would obviously have been great commotion and public excitement about what might be going on at the cottage - and it's likely that Curatolo may well have gone over to a point where he too could see what was happening. And for another thing, what Curatolo might or might not have seen - and been able to see - on 2nd November is wholly irrelevant to what he claims he saw on the evening/night of 1st November.

Toto had legs. He had to walk to his bench. Piazza Grimana was his natural habitat. He didn't have to get up to know what view the pair were taking in at the railings. There is a clear view as to the comings and goings from Piazza Grimana and people have taken pictures of this aspect.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:19 PM   #3314
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
2) The prosecution and the convicting courts primarily used Curatolo to discredit Knox and Sollecito, and specifically their alibi that they'd been together alone in Sollecito's apartment all evening/night. The thinking went: if Curatolo had indeed seen them over a period of a few hours in and near the square on that evening/night, then obviously they were lying about having been in Sollecito's apartment all that time. And by extension and implication: why would they be lying about this unless they had consciousness of guilt. I doubt the prosecution/convicting courts even bothered that much whether the cottage really could be seen by Curatolo.
When one reads the Nencini motivations report from 2014, the report which explains why the Nencini court convicted, this issue is the same on one bit of evidence Nencini leans on.

Nencini said that when Knox's phone received Lumumba's "See you later" message, that her phone was pinging on a cell tower not compatible with Raffaele's apartment.

Now think about that. Acc to the time line, this does not really, on the face of it, contribute to his conviction. The reason why he says it is because for him it proves she'd lied about being at Sollecito's all evening, for Nencini she'd at least stepped out circa 8:30 pm and was away to receive the text.

Which proves??? For Nencini, similar to how the first trial had tried to use Curatolo's "testimony" that Knox had lied. She'd lied about this one thing, so why not about the nig things.

That was it.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:20 PM   #3315
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Toto had legs. He had to walk to his bench. Piazza Grimana was his natural habitat. He didn't have to get up to know what view the pair were taking in at the railings. There is a clear view as to the comings and goings from Piazza Grimana and people have taken pictures of this aspect.
No there isn't and no they do not.

Who are these people?
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:27 PM   #3316
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He did. Several people have been to the former Piazza Grimana and verified there is a clear view of the cottage from where Toto sat.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are not familiar with the case. Curatalo said the pair were at the railings which look towards the cottage.

He did see the forensic police next day and did describe them.
ROTFLMAO! Yes, Curatolo did say that. You said he could see the cottage from where he sat on his bench.

Why do you keep thinking we don't know what that little black arrow does?
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:36 PM   #3317
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Toto had legs. He had to walk to his bench. Piazza Grimana was his natural habitat. He didn't have to get up to know what view the pair were taking in at the railings. There is a clear view as to the comings and goings from Piazza Grimana and people have taken pictures of this aspect.
No. There is a clear view of the cottage from the basketball court, not from P. Grimana itself.

Are you still going to dig your heels in and insist that there were costumed students in masks waiting in lines for the disco busses on Nov. 1? Or shall we just toss that into the same pile of unsupported "evidence" like the jacket and cap?
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:46 PM   #3318
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's a pity you didn't turn up at the trial clutching these photos.

Shame really, neither defence nor prosecution challenged Toto's description of the viewpoints.

You could have had a Perry Mason moment.
<deleted bandwidth eating fodder>
I wouldn't have bothered as it was already obvious Curatolo didn't see Amanda and Raffaele since he claimed to have seen them on Halloween and, as the courts well understood, Amanda and Raffaele were not together that evening.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:53 PM   #3319
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No. There is a clear view of the cottage from the basketball court, not from P. Grimana itself.
There's a place at the north railing of the basketball court that has a narrow view of the gate to the road. The cottage itself cannot be seen at all.

I will bet that this is the photo Vixen claims to have seen. The Piazza is a further 50 metres to the west, and the buildings obscure everything down on the cottage's road.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:55 PM   #3320
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Sherlock Mignini divined that only a woman would cover the body of her victim. As the Americans here may have heard today, DNA has finally revealed the Golden State Killer, a serial rapist/murderer from 4 decades ago. Despite Mignini's "elementary" deduction, James Joseph De Angelo also covered the bodies of some of his victims. He was also a burglar who escalated to rape and then to murder.
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