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Old 24th February 2005, 05:11 AM   #1
Badly Shaved Monkey
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What is it with circumcision?

There was a great programme on BBC1 television this week about coming of age in different societies that featured an African boy preparing for his entry into manhood including having his private parts abbreviated.

Why do so many traditional cultures and religions want to harvest foreskins? There are discussions to be had about the medical benefits, but were those societies capable of developing this practice because of supposed medical benefits? If not, then why did they pick on that piece of anatomy?

When this topic comes up I'm always reminded of this joke.

"What is the useless piece of skin at the end of a penis?"

"A man"


Edited for typos, but I see that formatting the thread title doesn't work!
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Old 24th February 2005, 06:01 AM   #2
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I'm reminded of notes in the Skeptic's Annotated Bible to the effect of, "God loves Penises. And he HATES foreskins."

I just think a trimmed John Thomas is more attractive, easier to keep clean, and looks a lot less worm-like.

I wonder if there's not some connection between woodies and snakes that bothers early cultures.
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Old 24th February 2005, 06:10 AM   #3
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And when the serpent sheds its skin, it's a sign of eternal life ... which, is why the serpent is revered in so many cultures.
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Old 24th February 2005, 06:16 AM   #4
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That might explain why adolescent males think they're immortal.


A pal of mine had a job circimcising elephants. The pay was pitiful.......



but the tips were enormous
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Old 24th February 2005, 06:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by zaayrdragon
I just think a trimmed John Thomas is more attractive, easier to keep clean, and looks a lot less worm-like.
But is that enough to make the dangly bit tabu?
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Old 24th February 2005, 06:58 AM   #6
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interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
But is that enough to make the dangly bit tabu?
It is interesting that in some cultures a man is not considered naked unless he is circumcised.
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Old 24th February 2005, 10:53 AM   #7
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Doesn't it seem a little weird that some patriarchal societies tend to have circumcision rituals? Adult men making rules and rituals about a younger male's thingy....

Some women think it's a male conspiracy to bring attention to their "little friend"....?



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Old 24th February 2005, 11:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Why do so many traditional cultures and religions want to harvest foreskins?
They make exquisitly supple hand gloves and finger cots.
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Old 24th February 2005, 12:02 PM   #9
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In all seriousness, I think Iacchus' snake-skin analogy might be the actual key here - the 'shedding of the skin' as a mark of adulthood. That might well be the key.
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Old 24th February 2005, 02:29 PM   #10
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Re: interesting

As a man whose sex organs were mutilated at birth, against my will, without my permission, for archaic, ancient, ritualistic reasons, I have an opinion on the subject.

More importantly, I have a question. How sexually sensitive was the part cut off? Was it like the skin along the back of the penis, or near the base, that isn't particularly sexually sensitive, and is more like normal skin elsewhere?

Or is it, or parts of it (which parts?) are sensitive similar to the skin beneath the head on the underside? If so, someone needs to go to jail.
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Old 24th February 2005, 02:40 PM   #11
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Re: Re: interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by Beerina
As a man whose sex organs were mutilated at birth, against my will, without my permission, for archaic, ancient, ritualistic reasons, I have an opinion on the subject.

More importantly, I have a question. How sexually sensitive was the part cut off? Was it like the skin along the back of the penis, or near the base, that isn't particularly sexually sensitive, and is more like normal skin elsewhere?

Or is it, or parts of it (which parts?) are sensitive similar to the skin beneath the head on the underside? If so, someone needs to go to jail.
Best line up the lawyers:

http://www.circumcision.org/foreskin.htm

Quote:

Taylor, Lockwood, and Taylor studied the foreskin tissue at the Department of Pathology, Health Sciences Centre, University of Manitoba, Canada. They reported their results in the British Journal of Urology in an article titled “The Prepuce: Specialized Mucosa of the Penis and Its Loss to Circumcision.” Based on the examination of 22 adult foreskins obtained at autopsy, they found that the outer foreskin’s concentration of nerves is “impressive” and its “sensitivity to light touch and pain are similar to that of the skin of the penis as a whole.” (1) The foreskin inner surface is different. It is mucous membrane similar to the inner surface of the mouth, also rich in nerves and blood vessels. Between the inner and outer layers of the foreskin is a unique structure they call a “ridged band” that contains “specialized nerve endings.” (2) The researchers conclude that the foreskin has several kinds of nerves and “should be considered a structural and functional unit made up of more or less specialized parts. . . . The glans and penile shaft gain excellent if surrogate sensitivity from the prepuce.” (3)
The foreskin represents at least a third of the penile skin. It protects the glans from abrasion and contact with clothes. (4) The foreskin also increases sexual pleasure by sliding up and down on the shaft, stimulating the glans by alternately covering and exposing it. This can occur during masturbation or intercourse. Friction is minimized, and supplementary lubrication is not needed. (5) Without the foreskin, the glans skin, which is normally moist mucous membrane, becomes dry and thickens considerably in response to continued exposure. This change reduces its sensitivity. (6) In addition, the loss of a secretion called smegma of the inner foreskin layer removes natural lubrication.
We - or at least many of us - have been screwed, indeed.
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beerina

As a man whose sex organs were mutilated at birth, against my will, without my permission, for archaic, ancient, ritualistic reasons, I have an opinion on the subject.

More importantly, I have a question. How sexually sensitive was the part cut off? Was it like the skin along the back of the penis, or near the base, that isn't particularly sexually sensitive, and is more like normal skin elsewhere?

Or is it, or parts of it (which parts?) are sensitive similar to the skin beneath the head on the underside? If so, someone needs to go to jail.
Your best bet would be to go ask someone who was "uncircumsized."
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by zaayrdragon
In all seriousness, I think Iacchus' snake-skin analogy might be the actual key here - the 'shedding of the skin' as a mark of adulthood. That might well be the key.
Not really circumcision is just a way to control sexuality. In both males and females. And therefore quite unethical.

The benefits are about equal to the risks, and even this consideration leaves out the reduced sexual preformance of the victim.
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:22 PM   #14
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Sheesh. Stop being greedy. Isn't sex good enough already, even without a foreskin?

I'd also point out that in that long excerpt from the foreskin pathologists, where they discuss lubrication and movement, etc, none of that would actually work with a foreskin if you were wearing a condom. It'd be just like being circumsized anyway. For me, at least, that makes the issue moot.
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by AWPrime
Not really circumcision is just a way to control sexuality. In both males and females. And therefore quite unethical.
I disagree. Circumcision might have that effect in females, but it doesn't make sex unpleasurable for males. (Unless it were done really recently!)

If the issue was really about control, they'd leave it on and pierce it. I'm sure BME has some pics of that...
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I disagree. Circumcision might have that effect in females, but it doesn't make sex unpleasurable for males. (Unless it were done really recently!)
For control they don't need it to make it unpleasurable, only reduce it serverly, as it does with males.
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:33 PM   #17
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CIRP, the best info site about circumcision.

http://www.cirp.org/library/
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by AWPrime
For control they don't need it to make it unpleasurable, only reduce it serverly, as it does with males.
Still doesn't work. Sex is pleasurable enough to seek it out quite frequently, even circumsized.

I haven't noticed the circumsized getting any less than those who weren't. In fact, in the US anyway, it's sometimes easier for the circumsized to get sex, since it's the norm (at the moment, anyway). The prevailing cultural prejudice seems to be pro-circumcision, and the perception that it "looks better".

(I'm well aware of the fact that I'm spelling circumsision with varying numbers of s's and c's. I'm lazy, and can't be bothered to look it up.)
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Still doesn't work.
It does work, for its purpose.

from: http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/first/riner.html


Quote:
From Biblical times, at least, we have had a taboo, a religious injunction prohibiting sexual pollution in the forms of incest, adultery and masturbation; these three are often treated collectively, as they all are concerned with the control of human reproduction

......

Circumcision was prescribed as one way of preventing a person's fall into these sins of pollution. (Allow that reasoning in Biblical contexts was not scientific - but as we'll see, symbolic, and more precisely metaphorical.)
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:56 PM   #20
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Well, everywhere I look, the consensus seems to be the same. Circumcision reduces sexual pleasure for men, and possibly for women, too.

How annoying.
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Old 24th February 2005, 03:59 PM   #21
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I thought it was to make it easier to clean.

However, they forgot about the feeling of constantly having your nerves rub against your underwear.

<--circumsized.
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Old 24th February 2005, 04:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkMagician
I thought it was to make it easier to clean.

However, they forgot about the feeling of constantly having your nerves rub against your underwear.

<--circumsized.
Lol. Thanks for the info. Want to start a poll?
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Old 24th February 2005, 05:29 PM   #23
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Re: What is it with circumcision?

Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Why do so many traditional cultures and religions want to harvest foreskins? There are discussions to be had about the medical benefits, but were those societies capable of developing this practice because of supposed medical benefits? If not, then why did they pick on that piece of anatomy?
I dont know why that piece of anatomy was chosen, but biblically speaking circumcision was necessary to continue fulling the covenant between the descendants of Abraham and God.
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Old 24th February 2005, 11:49 PM   #24
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Personally, I think it's an atrocious practice. There is no utility in it. The myth of 'uncleanliness' is just that, especially in the past four hundred years with hygiene becoming prevalent (or in places where it was always recognized, as in Japan).

I feel that those who are circumcized are victimized. How would you feel if it were a custom to have your lips removed at birth because they are 'unclean'? It is a practice that needs to be stopped in the way it is done currently. Heck, you want your foreskin removed at an age of responsibility (16/18), sure go for it. But 2 week old babies don't have a say or choice in the matter. For the always-hypocritical Christians out there: Abortion is bad, mutilation is okay?

Yes, I was a victim of this insulting practice. (That's two in the poll, right?)
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Old 25th February 2005, 12:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I'd also point out that in that long excerpt from the foreskin pathologists, where they discuss lubrication and movement, etc, none of that would actually work with a foreskin if you were wearing a condom.
Exactly!

Cavalier, and proud of it: BSM may be badly shaved, but has not been trimmed in any other way.
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Old 25th February 2005, 12:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkMagician
...<--circumsized.
Umm...yes bud we remember the paltalk streaking episode a couple years ago.
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Old 25th February 2005, 01:05 AM   #27
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I was circumsised as a child (three in the poll) and I've no idea why. My parents were, if anything, anglican. I think it was just the done thing at that time and in that place.

I've never felt victimised, insulted or deprived because I have no foreskin. I can't remember it happening, so I don't know if it hurt or not. And having nothing to compare it to, I can't say that I get any less sexual pleasure than a man with a foreskin.

The sum of my opinion therefore is "meh". My children are not circumcised, as I don't see any point in it.

I'd like to quote Robin Williams:

"We're going into the desert, folks. You don't want sand in there!"
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Old 25th February 2005, 01:07 AM   #28
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sniff

I miss my foreskin.

A
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Old 25th February 2005, 05:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fidelio
Umm...yes bud we remember the paltalk streaking episode a couple years ago.
Yeah, maybe I should stop doing that.
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Old 25th February 2005, 06:09 PM   #30
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No streaking! Bad magician!

Anyway, I thought it was for hygenic purposes. The forskin attracts infection or something.
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Old 25th February 2005, 06:14 PM   #31
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Re: Re: Re: interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
Best line up the lawyers:

http://www.circumcision.org/foreskin.htm



We - or at least many of us - have been screwed, indeed.
One would have to wonder how many more of us would be premature ejaculators without circumcision. It is not implausible that one aspect of the initial inclination in some societies was, in fact, to decrease sensitivity (pleasure, if you like), but with an eye toward making sex a more equal experience for both men and women.
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Old 26th February 2005, 03:27 AM   #32
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http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm

Quote:
In the United States, the current medical rationale for circumcision developed after the operation was in wide practice.

....

When a custom persists after its original functions have died, it may be accorded the status of ritual. American parents and physicians no longer cite masturbatory insanity as a reason to circumcise children, but they have found other justifications for the ritual that they believe in as firmly. When the same operation is variously reputed to accomplish antithetical goals - in the case of circumcision, to repress sexuality and to liberate it, to make the penis or clitoris less sensitive and more sensitive - we can be sure we are dealing with ritual, not rational thinking. It is astonishing that such a little bit of skin carries such a great load of power.
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Old 26th February 2005, 04:27 AM   #33
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RE:circumcision

As I was sitting here reading this my dog was rolling around on the floor and boom what do I see?His red]RED ROCKET.Maybe ancient cultures were trying to be less animal like in the appearance of their sexual organs.Just a thought.Make that four in your pole.Pun intended.Does anyone really think that thousands of years ago some guy decided to cut off his foreskin to increase his wives pleasure?Iseriously doubt that.
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Old 26th February 2005, 05:18 AM   #34
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I don't support female infibulation, therefore I don't support circumcision. I was under the impression that it was a religious notion all bundled up with some claim of health benefits.
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Old 26th February 2005, 09:03 AM   #35
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I was cut as an infant and I have no memory of the event. Heck I didn't even know I was missing a part till around 16. So what is it with cultures that wait till 10-12 years of age?

Do they figure each little boy needs a bit of physical and psychological trauma involving his weiner?

"Step out of line and it'll be the whole thing next time kiddo."
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Old 26th February 2005, 10:04 AM   #36
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Re: RE:circumcision

Quote:
Originally posted by Hamhawk714
As I was sitting here reading this my dog was rolling around on the floor and boom what do I see?His red]RED ROCKET.Maybe ancient cultures were trying to be less animal like in the appearance of their sexual organs.Just a thought.Make that four in your pole.Pun intended.
Hey, great minds think alike. I was wondering about this the other day after I had started this thread and you are right. Although prepuces are present in our domestic species, when their todgers up and ready for action they are extruded fully. Given early man's proximity to animals and the metaphorical and magical importance of male animals to human sexuality, perhaps there is an element of mimcry involved.

Mind you, I'm glad we didn't try to engineer anything quite as baroque as the ram's male implement.

Badly Shaved Monkey wishes to make it clear that his detailed knowledge of animal penises is derived from his professional training and is not merely an unpleasant hobby.

Edited for typos, but not for decency or taste!
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Old 26th February 2005, 02:27 PM   #37
jambo372
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Here's a joke on the subject ;

Q What happened to the blind circumciser ?
A He got the sack.
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Old 26th February 2005, 06:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by zaayrdragon
I'm reminded of notes in the Skeptic's Annotated Bible to the effect of, "God loves Penises. And he HATES foreskins."

I just think a trimmed John Thomas is more attractive, easier to keep clean, and looks a lot less worm-like.
It's true that from an aesthetic POV, circumcised penises look better, but the idea of being easier to keep clean is a nonsense. I'm uncircumcised (as is Richard Dawkins, BTW), because in Britain it really is down to the whim of the doctor in the delivery room. At Dawkins's school, boys used to divide themselves into Cavaliers and Roundheads for sports like Rugby.
Oh, and foreskins act as increased protection against contracting STDs, which explains why they were naturally selected in the first place.
But those without may consider themselves a cut above the rest...
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Old 26th February 2005, 07:09 PM   #39
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What about the scare tissue then?

That can't look good.
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Old 26th February 2005, 07:16 PM   #40
Kimpatsu
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Quote:
Originally posted by AWPrime
What about the scare tissue then?

That can't look good.
Are you saying that circumcised penises look scary?
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