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Old 6th September 2022, 09:37 AM   #2321
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Apparently, the govt. considers that the mixing of personal items and govt. documents is evidence. Perhaps of "mishandling" of classified documents?
Actually it is evidence.

It is useful in establishing possession, that Trump had personal access to the documents in question (and prevents him from claiming "I didn't know these were taken... It must have been Melanie that packed them when we left the white house")

That is why finding his passport in the same drawer that a classified document was found in could be so damaging to him.

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Old 6th September 2022, 09:38 AM   #2322
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I'd guess that all the materials seized have already been sorted out, cataloged and arranged in neat little stacks.

Once the master gets picked the process ought to go faster than usual.

My sense of it is that the process of picking the special master is where Trump will try to delay.
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I believe this is precisely the tactic in play now.
Also: Trump has better than a 50/50 chance of choosing who the Special Master is. The judge directed both sides to nominate candidates for the special master. The judge (Aileen Cannon) is a Trump appointee. I would give good odds that she goes with a Special Master that Trump nominated.

Judge Cannon is already seemingly pretty far off the rails in all this, granting Trump a sort of pseudo-Presidential legal deference that grants the Trump defense team rights and privileges not required by the law, rights and privileges not granted to other defendants.

Last edited by crescent; 6th September 2022 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 6th September 2022, 09:39 AM   #2323
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Apparently, the govt. considers that the mixing of personal items and govt. documents is evidence. Perhaps of "mishandling" of classified documents?
The liberal shill, Barr, opines that the government had every right to take the personal items that were mixed in because it shows evidence of mishandling.
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Old 6th September 2022, 09:41 AM   #2324
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Also: Trump has better than a 50/50 chance of choosing who the Special Master is. The judge directed both sides to nominate candidates for the special master. The judge (Aileen Cannon) is a Trump appointee. I would give good odds that she goes with a Special Master that Trump nominated.

Judge Cannon is already seemingly pretty far off the rails in all this, granting Trump a sort of pseudo-Presidential legal deference that grants the Trump defense team rights and privileges not required by the law, rights and privileges not granted to other defendants.
She has certainly demonstrated to the world that she has loyalty to Trump in her "reasoning" to appoint a special master.
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Old 6th September 2022, 09:55 AM   #2325
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So does the appointment of a special master lend the appearance of fairness to the investigation/prosecution and give Trump one less thing to cry about?

or:

Does it encourage Trump to come up with more delaying tactics?

or:

Both?
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Old 6th September 2022, 09:59 AM   #2326
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So does the appointment of a special master lend the appearance of fairness to the investigation/prosecution and give Trump one less thing to cry about?

or:

Does it encourage Trump to come up with more delaying tactics?

or:

Both?
Both and it could be worse. The Trump-judge could have a loyalist appointed as the special master to gum up the works with accusations and false statements about the evidence. He won't stop crying unless he beats this, and even then, he'll cry-brag about it.
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:03 AM   #2327
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
what is a "personal item" in this respect?
A personal item (at least to me) would be something not directly owned by the government (e.g. any of the documents) and does not reference any criminal activity. Trump's passports would be an example. Perhaps documents from before he became president, or related to personal matters.

To me, there are 2 types of such documents: Harmless items (like his passports, or the Time Magazine covers found in one of the boxes with classified documents) which could just be returned. A bit more problematic would be communications with lawyers over personal matters (such as his civil lawsuits) which would be covered under lawyer-client privilege.

Of course even if you are talking about Trump communicating with his own lawyers, it would get messy. A note from Cohen about how "I paid off Stormy Daniels as you instructed" would be evidence of a crime (in this case election finance), so even though it was a personal legal matter it would probably be of interest to the DOJ. On the other hand, a note from his current lawyers reminding him "Plead the 5th during your depositions" would be privileged because it is not about a crime that both Trump and his lawyer are involved in.

I am sure that the FBI probably did a proper job of sorting those types of documents out, so a special master isn't needed.
Quote:
Notes Trump made on classified documents? (like with a sharpie?)
The document is government property, and any notes scribbled on it would be evidence relevant to the crime (since they would show possession of the document in question.)
Quote:
phone numbers of co-conspirators?
numbers of bank accounts in Monaco?
To be honest, I'm not sure how those would be considered.

They would probably be valid items for the DoJ to consider. Unless of course there was a reason to believe that such items were irrelevant (such as an account ledger showing the bank account had been dormant).
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:09 AM   #2328
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So does the appointment of a special master lend the appearance of fairness to the investigation/prosecution and give Trump one less thing to cry about?

or:

Does it encourage Trump to come up with more delaying tactics?
In THEORY it would lend to the appearance of fairness.

In reality, the only people who are claiming "unfair/bias" are Trump sycophants and the MAGAchud, who are detached from reality, and those people will never ever be convinced that things were done in an impartial basis unless they get the result they want. (i.e. Trump is cleared of all charges and gets installed as god-king of America.) People who actually have some ability at rational thought generally believe that things are actually being done in a fair, unbiased manner.
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:13 AM   #2329
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A special master at this point only matters in appearance, and that's what Trump wants. He wants someone to make it appear that the DOJ/FBI are thugs that are doing work for the mafia state. He also wants to delay proceedings as much as possible and muck up the waters. It's his strategy for all legal issues against him.
He's hoping to delay until Republicans can get power and shut down any and all legal investigations into Trump crimes.
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:17 AM   #2330
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
A special master at this point only matters in appearance, and that's what Trump wants. He wants someone to make it appear that the DOJ/FBI are thugs that are doing work for the mafia state. He also wants to delay proceedings as much as possible and muck up the waters. It's his strategy for all legal issues against him.
He's hoping to delay until Republicans can get power and shut down any and all legal investigations into Trump crimes.
Or until he can officially declare his candidacy for the Republican nomination.

Then he can claim "you can't touch me because the DoJ/FBI have a policy of trying not to affect elections".
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:18 AM   #2331
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Nightmare senario for DJT. . .

The special master ruling only slows things down. Some of the personal items found by the FBI in Mar-a-Lago suggest other crimes and Trump ends up on the hook for those too.

The Georgia investigation heats up and Trump has to deal with another fire.

Worst of all Biden gets re-elected giving the DOJ has all the time it needs to investigate and prosecute the ex-president.
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:19 AM   #2332
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Nightmare senario for DJT. . .

The special master ruling only slows things down. Some of the personal items found by the FBI in Mar-a-Lago suggest other crimes and Trump ends up on the hook for those too.

The Georgia investigation heats up and Trump has to deal with another fire.

Worst of all Biden gets re-elected giving the DOJ has all the time it needs to investigate and prosecute the ex-president.
You think it won't be wrapped up before 2024 !?
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:29 AM   #2333
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You think it won't be wrapped up before 2024 !?
If Trump wangles a time out while he runs for president the cases might well stretch on into late 2024 and 2025.

I suspect he is no mental shape to run and the campaign will consist of him whining about how unfair everybody has been to him.

In his nightmare the whine grows repetitious and sad. Biden wins soundly.

Trump starts the I-was-robbed line about the time DOJ lights into him again and most folks start praying for him to get jailed just so he'll shut the hell up.
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:41 AM   #2334
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Both and it could be worse. The Trump-judge could have a loyalist appointed as the special master to gum up the works with accusations and false statements about the evidence. He won't stop crying unless he beats this, and even then, he'll cry-brag about it.
Exactly.

Even if the judge says DJTís lawyers will make a list and Trump will choose a name from that list, then at the next rally he will say, ďthey are so very biased, I had no input into appointing the special master,Ē because he knows his followers will never fact check one of his claims.
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:48 AM   #2335
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually it is evidence.

It is useful in establishing possession, that Trump had personal access to the documents in question (and prevents him from claiming "I didn't know these were taken... It must have been Melanie that packed them when we left the white house")

That is why finding his passport in the same drawer that a classified document was found in could be so damaging to him.
I donít understand that reasoning. Itís not like Trump put the passport in that drawer. His entire adult life has been I-have-peons-to-do-mundane-things (such as keep track of my passport).
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Old 6th September 2022, 10:51 AM   #2336
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I donít understand that reasoning. Itís not like Trump put the passport in that drawer. His entire adult life has been I-have-peons-to-do-mundane-things (such as keep track of my passport).
To me it suggests keeping together what he thought he'd need to grab if fleeing the country suddenly!
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Old 6th September 2022, 11:00 AM   #2337
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
A personal item (at least to me) would be something not directly owned by the government (e.g. any of the documents) and does not reference any criminal activity. Trump's passports would be an example. Perhaps documents from before he became president, or related to personal matters.

To me, there are 2 types of such documents: Harmless items (like his passports, or the Time Magazine covers found in one of the boxes with classified documents) which could just be returned. A bit more problematic would be communications with lawyers over personal matters (such as his civil lawsuits) which would be covered under lawyer-client privilege.

Of course even if you are talking about Trump communicating with his own lawyers, it would get messy. A note from Cohen about how "I paid off Stormy Daniels as you instructed" would be evidence of a crime (in this case election finance), so even though it was a personal legal matter it would probably be of interest to the DOJ. On the other hand, a note from his current lawyers reminding him "Plead the 5th during your depositions" would be privileged because it is not about a crime that both Trump and his lawyer are involved in.

I am sure that the FBI probably did a proper job of sorting those types of documents out, so a special master isn't needed.

The document is government property, and any notes scribbled on it would be evidence relevant to the crime (since they would show possession of the document in question.)

To be honest, I'm not sure how those would be considered.

They would probably be valid items for the DoJ to consider. Unless of course there was a reason to believe that such items were irrelevant (such as an account ledger showing the bank account had been dormant).
Here's the thing. Search warrants have to be specific. The documents they find and seize must be related to crimes specified in the afidavit. So if you're looking for documents that prove Trump took documents that belong to the government, what you seize must be related to that. If you're looking for evidence that proved he obstructed the investigation into the missing documents it must be related to that.

What they cannot do is use the search warrant to look into everything. So an incriminating note to and or from Cohen about something other than the documents would be problematic. Maybe something like that could be seized to demonstrate a pattern of obstruction. Not really sure.

.
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Old 6th September 2022, 11:02 AM   #2338
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually it is evidence.

It is useful in establishing possession, that Trump had personal access to the documents in question (and prevents him from claiming "I didn't know these were taken... It must have been Melanie that packed them when we left the white house")

That is why finding his passport in the same drawer that a classified document was found in could be so damaging to him.

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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I don’t understand that reasoning. It’s not like Trump put the passport in that drawer. His entire adult life has been I-have-peons-to-do-mundane-things (such as keep track of my passport).
Who said DJT makes sense. It's like him having newspaper clippings mixed in with the top secret files. It shows that he knew he had the secret files and even went so far as to mix them up with his private papers.

He could have easily put his passports in a lock box or safe in the room and kept the secret stuff separate and secure. If he'd done that he'd now be able to at least argue that he was keeping the secret stuff safe.

Last edited by arayder; 6th September 2022 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 6th September 2022, 11:12 AM   #2339
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Here's the thing. Search warrants have to be specific. The documents they find and seize must be related to crimes specified in the afidavit. So if you're looking for documents that prove Trump took documents that belong to the government, what you seize must be related to that. If you're looking for evidence that proved he obstructed the investigation into the missing documents it must be related to that.

What they cannot do is use the search warrant to look into everything. So an incriminating note to and or from Cohen about something other than the documents would be problematic. Maybe something like that could be seized to demonstrate a pattern of obstruction. Not really sure.

.
There is a "plain site" doctrine that would apply if they happen upon evidence of other criminal activity while performing their search and while sorting to the seized documents.
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Old 6th September 2022, 11:17 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
If this all becomes too convoluted and ďlegally,Ē rather than a simple, straightforward matter of theft, obstruction, and mishandling (not to mention possibly espionage)Öthe things Joe Sixpack can understand without effort, Trump (and his media machine) will be easily able to cast it all as political overreach and therefore wholly illegitimate.
Exactly.

He was caught red handed with documents that could not possibly all be legal for him to have that threatened our national security. The arguments of where the exact line is takes away the fact that the line can't even be seen from where Trump is he's so far past it.

The threat and impact of the wrong he did should be the focus more than the legal theory of how to punish it.
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Old 6th September 2022, 11:23 AM   #2341
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
There is a "plain site" doctrine that would apply if they happen upon evidence of other criminal activity while performing their search and while sorting to the seized documents.
Which makes it even more stupid for Trump to have mixed his own papers in with the top secret files.
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Old 6th September 2022, 11:24 AM   #2342
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
As crazy as this sounds, is it illegal to be in possession of empty folders?

I mean, unless they can track the documents that were in them, what do they have?
Yes. It is illegal.
To the second question, evidence of missing classified documents.
Can you not read what others here have posted in terms of handling documents?
Edited by jimbob:  rule 12 violation
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Old 6th September 2022, 12:27 PM   #2343
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Tracking Trump's legal entanglements

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/06/polit...-dg/index.html
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Old 6th September 2022, 12:38 PM   #2344
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
There is a "plain site" doctrine that would apply if they happen upon evidence of other criminal activity while performing their search and while sorting to the seized documents.
Passing the "plain view" doctrine would also be extremely problematic. It must be inadvertent. Might be tough to argue that while one is searching for Presidential documents that a letter to or from his former private attorney was inadvertent.
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Old 6th September 2022, 12:41 PM   #2345
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I donít understand that reasoning. Itís not like Trump put the passport in that drawer. His entire adult life has been I-have-peons-to-do-mundane-things (such as keep track of my passport).
Why not? It was his personal office desk drawer. Just who do you think was allowed to put things in his desk drawer? If someone else was handling important documents like his passports, I'd think they'd have been more careful with it than just tossing it into a desk drawer. I keep mine in a fireproof and locked box.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:01 PM   #2346
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Just to be clear: US passports are issued by and belong to the US government, not the passport holder. Trump's passport is not "his" document. The government is entitled to take it whenever they want for whatever reason they like. I imagine it is the same legally for passports that Trump holds of any other countries. .

If the DoJ have it, stops him being a flight risk...but only a little bit. If he wants to flee, he probably just will, with or without a passport.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:04 PM   #2347
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Or until he can officially declare his candidacy for the Republican nomination.

Then he can claim "you can't touch me because the DoJ/FBI have a policy of trying not to affect elections".
Yeah, but that is only a policy, that the DoJ could easily change.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:09 PM   #2348
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Judge Cannon rejected an attempt by 7 Republicans (including Christine Todd Whitman and William Weld) to file a amicus brief supporting the DOJ's position.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...o-participate/
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:12 PM   #2349
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Passing the "plain view" doctrine would also be extremely problematic. It must be inadvertent. Might be tough to argue that while one is searching for Presidential documents that a letter to or from his former private attorney was inadvertent.
I believe it would be harder to NOT see all the evidence of criminal activity, if that evidence is mixed in with the classified documents.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:15 PM   #2350
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Quote:
There is a "plain site" doctrine that would apply if they happen upon evidence of other criminal activity while performing their search and while sorting to the seized documents.
Passing the "plain view" doctrine would also be extremely problematic. It must be inadvertent.
Probably depends on context or the specifics of the situation.

When performing a search over a complete residence (where the goal is to retrieve multiple boxes of files), seizing stuff that is not relevant at the time is probably fairly easy to do (since the FBI officers performing the search do not have time to read every document individually.) They will look in a box, and if they see one document marked 'classified', they will assume the entire box contains other such material.

Otherwise, executing a search warrant like the one at Mar a Lago would probably take days....
Quote:
Might be tough to argue that while one is searching for Presidential documents that a letter to or from his former private attorney was inadvertent.
It would be easy to have that sort of thing swept up in a search. It would be up to a 'taint team', special master or the like to look at the material afterwards, and decide whether it was relevant to the case, something irrelevant to THIS case (but evidence to some other crime), or something totally irrelevant and/or protected by attorney/client privilege.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:20 PM   #2351
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Again, how is judge shopping a thing in the US? How did Judge Cannon get to insert herself into this? How is it that a single treasonous judge gets to halt a criminal investigation into her benefactor? How can any of this be legal in a modern Western nation?
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:20 PM   #2352
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Quote:
It is useful in establishing possession, that Trump had personal access to the documents in question (and prevents him from claiming "I didn't know these were taken... It must have been Melanie that packed them when we left the white house")

That is why finding his passport in the same drawer that a classified document was found in could be so damaging to him.
I donít understand that reasoning. Itís not like Trump put the passport in that drawer. His entire adult life has been I-have-peons-to-do-mundane-things (such as keep track of my passport).
Yes, Trump has minions working for him. But I think when he goes through customs he would still have to personally present his passport to the customs officer.

Plus, if it was one of his minions handling it, why put it in his desk drawer? I am sure they have other filing cabinets where they could store it (with less risk of it actually getting ketchup stains on it from one of Trump's cheezeburgers.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:21 PM   #2353
I Am The Scum
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Passing the "plain view" doctrine would also be extremely problematic. It must be inadvertent. Might be tough to argue that while one is searching for Presidential documents that a letter to or from his former private attorney was inadvertent.
If Trump had mixed classified documents into his personal effects, then this is extremely easy. We already know his passport was inadvertently grabbed because it was with government docs.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:23 PM   #2354
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Again, how is judge shopping a thing in the US? How did Judge Cannon get to insert herself into this? How is it that a single treasonous judge gets to halt a criminal investigation into her benefactor? How can any of this be legal in a modern Western nation?
Because ~40% of our population adopted a "LOL make me" approach to politics.

None of this is "By the Rules" allowed it's just "Nothing is against the rules until somebody stops you" allowed.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:23 PM   #2355
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Probably depends on context or the specifics of the situation.

When performing a search over a complete residence (where the goal is to retrieve multiple boxes of files), seizing stuff that is not relevant at the time is probably fairly easy to do (since the FBI officers performing the search do not have time to read every document individually.) They will look in a box, and if they see one document marked 'classified', they will assume the entire box contains other such material.

Otherwise, executing a search warrant like the one at Mar a Lago would probably take days....

It would be easy to have that sort of thing swept up in a search. It would be up to a 'taint team', special master or the like to look at the material afterwards, and decide whether it was relevant to the case, something irrelevant to THIS case (but evidence to some other crime), or something totally irrelevant and/or protected by attorney/client privilege.
The plain view doctrine has created some bizarre decisions and case law. I've read enough of these decisions and find the rulings don't seem consistent.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:24 PM   #2356
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because ~40% of our population adopted a "LOL make me" approach to politics.

None of this is "By the Rules" allowed it's just "Nothing is against the rules until somebody stops you" allowed.
So ******* make him. Ignore the judge. Should be just as legal/illegal as her gumming up the works. Or, get another judge to say that Trump's judge is a poopy head.
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Last edited by uke2se; 6th September 2022 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:28 PM   #2357
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Here's the thing. Search warrants have to be specific. The documents they find and seize must be related to crimes specified in the afidavit. So if you're looking for documents that prove Trump took documents that belong to the government, what you seize must be related to that. If you're looking for evidence that proved he obstructed the investigation into the missing documents it must be related to that.

What they cannot do is use the search warrant to look into everything. So an incriminating note to and or from Cohen about something other than the documents would be problematic. Maybe something like that could be seized to demonstrate a pattern of obstruction. Not really sure.

.
Are you talking about the "exclusionary rule" here? This is the rule that applies when evidence is collected or analyzed in violation of the defendant's constitutional rights, and prevents such evidence from being used in a court of law - for example, a search warrant for incriminating Items A, B and C is carried out, and in the course of the search, the police find incriminating Item D. That item cannot be used in the court because the warrant did not specify it. In the case currently under discussion, that is correct - any personal documents found among the classified ones cannot be used against The Fat Orange Turd.

However, knowing about the existence of documents that they didn't previously know about can give investigators clues as to avenues to investigate. This can result in something called "inevitable discovery", where prosecutors can show that they would have found Item D anyway through other investigatory means.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:28 PM   #2358
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Here's a link to the SCOTUS ruling on the House request for Jan. 6 records that turned down Trump's request for executive privilege.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...1a272_9p6b.pdf

In summary, they avoided addressing the issue brought up in the appeal's court re to what extent "executive privilege" extends to former presidents, deciding the issue 8-1 stating it was not necessary to review that.

Thomas (no surprise) was willing to grant Trump's request to withhold. Kavanaugh commented that he believed executive privilege should be a consideration for former presidents. So that's 2 out of 9 that have weighed in pro exec. priv. for former presidents.

So, it's actually unsettled law.

K's statement (even though he concurred with turning the papers over to the Jan. 6th committee.

Quote:
Moreover, I respectfully disagree with the Court of Appeals on that point. A former President must be able to successfully invoke the Presidential communications privilege for communications that occurred during his Presidency, even if the current President does not support the privilege claim. Concluding otherwise would eviscerate the executive privilege for Presidential communications.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:32 PM   #2359
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So ******* make him. Ignore the judge. Should be just as legal/illegal as her gumming up the works.
That's the problem we can't.

Who? Who stops him? What social or political group with power to do anything doesn't consist of ~40% members of his cult?

Let's start at the top. 50% (minus a tiebreaker and 1 or 2 people if we're super, super lucky) of Senators, 211 members of the House of Representatives, and 5 of the 9 members of the SCOTUS will follow that little troll into the sea just to tweak the libs. None of the branches of government can or will do **** against Trump because ~40% of them love the damage he's doing.

The Justice Department? I'm sure if you did a poll ~40% of THEM would also buy that Trump really won the last election and he is the only one that can save us from Evil Hillary and her underground child sex pizza parlor dungeon.

The states? The Republicans OWN the governorships and state legislatures.

So who's doing it? Who's stopping him? We don't have single person concentrated sources of power in America. SCOTUS is as "People to Decision" ratio as we get.

Look how much 2 or 3, really one at this point, trolls shut down this board. Now apply that to literally everything. Every system, every group, every social and political and governmental structure.
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Old 6th September 2022, 01:32 PM   #2360
Norman Alexander
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Again... US passports are the property of the US government.
Quote:
ß 51.7 Passport property of the U.S. Government.
(a) A passport at all times remains the property of the United States and must be returned to the U.S. Government upon demand.

(b) Law enforcement authorities who take possession of a passport for use in an investigation or prosecution must return the passport to the Department on completion of the investigation and/or prosecution.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text...0upon%20demand.
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