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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 130 76.92%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.37%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 17.16%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.55%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16th September 2022, 07:21 PM   #2681
theprestige
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You could answer a question straight up.

I didn't ask if you'd "accept" whatever happens.

I asked if you recognize Trump's traitorous acts. I asked if you reject those acts.

Your failure to stand up for the rule of law and what's right is plain to see.
Standing up for rule of law means not accepting allegations at face value. It means not issuing convictions without due process. But you are doing both those things. And still you have the gall, the rudeness, the dishonesty, to accuse others of your own sins.

Physician, beam, etc.
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Old 16th September 2022, 07:31 PM   #2682
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Standing up for rule of law means not accepting allegations at face value. It means not issuing convictions without due process. But you are doing both those things. And still you have the gall, the rudeness, the dishonesty, to accuse others of your own sins.

Physician, beam, etc.
Oh, hell. Trump's a traitor and we all know it. I didn't ask Warp for a strict legal opinion. I asked if he supports his country.

He shucked and jived.

Last edited by arayder; 16th September 2022 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 16th September 2022, 07:32 PM   #2683
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Marcie Wheeler notices an interesting footnote in the appeal:

Quote:
There’s a detail in DOJ’s request for a stay of Judge Aileen Cannon’s injunction on using stolen Trump documents to investigate Trump that hasn’t gotten enough attention.

A footnote modifying a discussion about the damage assessment the Intelligence Community is currently doing referenced a letter then-NSA Director Mike Rogers wrote in support of Nghia Pho’s sentencing in 2018. [This letter remains sealed in the docket but Josh Gerstein liberated it at the time.]

In order to assess the full scope of potential harms to national security resulting from the improper retention of the classified records, the government must assess the likelihood that improperly stored classified information may have been accessed by others and compromised.

Departments and agencies in the IC would then consider this information to determine whether they need to treat certain sources and methods as compromised. See, e.g., Exhibit A to Sentencing Memorandum, United States v. Pho, No. 1:17-cr-631 (D. Md. Sept. 18, 2018), D.E. 20-1 (letter from Adm. Michael S. Rogers, Director, National Security Agency) (“Once the government loses positive control over classified material, the government must often treat the material as compromised and take remedial actions as dictated by the particular circumstances.”
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/09/1...ce-compromise/
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Old 16th September 2022, 07:44 PM   #2684
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Oh, hell. Trump's a traitor and we all know it. I didn't ask Warp for a strict legal opinion. I asked if he supports his country.

He shucked and jived.
You asked if he stands up for rule of law. You don't even stand up for rule of law. Now you're the one shucking and jiving. Go back to trolling Bobby Menard.
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Old 16th September 2022, 07:50 PM   #2685
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You asked if he stands up for rule of law. You don't even stand up for rule of law. Now you're the one shucking and jiving. Go back to trolling Bobby Menard.
Oh, I get it.

A guy kills his wife and eats most of her body before the neighbors notice the smell and call the cops.

But I can't call him a cannibal until the court says so.

If you actually follow the thread in proper sequence you can see that the discussion turns from the acceptance of whatever the court says to that of the simple recognition of Trump as the traitor he is, whether or not he might “beat the rap”.

I can’t help the bug you have up there about plain speaking, but the least you can do is be honest about the train of discussion.

Last edited by arayder; 16th September 2022 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 16th September 2022, 08:23 PM   #2686
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The DOJ's request to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals to allow the investigation to use the 103 classified documents can be found here:

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ymotca11091622

It basically contains the same arguments as they made to the District Court, plus describes the fuc, er, errors that the District Court made.
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Old 16th September 2022, 11:46 PM   #2687
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Standing up for rule of law means not accepting allegations at face value. It means not issuing convictions without due process. But you are doing both those things. And still you have the gall, the rudeness, the dishonesty, to accuse others of your own sins.

Physician, beam, etc.
Hang on to that straw old boy...hang on for dear life. You might even be able to pull yourself up with it.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:14 AM   #2688
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How did Trump manage to get an apparently competent lawyer, former Florida Solicitor General Chris Kice, to work for him? He got his PAC, the Save America PAC, to pay Kice's entire ($3M) retainer.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/15/polit...yer/index.html

Once again, Trump rips off his gullible worshippers, by using donations to a supposed political advocacy organization to pay his personal expenses. And they will continue to send their hard-earned money to him.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:21 AM   #2689
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Kice should rip off Trump and do a half-ass job.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:21 AM   #2690
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For his supporters, it's no contradiction that Trump is, at the same time, one of the richest man in America and going broke unless he gets your $5 donation.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:26 AM   #2691
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
For his supporters, it's no contradiction that Trump is, at the same time, one of the richest man in America and going broke unless he gets your $5 donation.
What more can you expect from the terminally brainless?
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:42 AM   #2692
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
How did Trump manage to get an apparently competent lawyer, former Florida Solicitor General Chris Kice, to work for him? He got his PAC, the Save America PAC, to pay Kice's entire ($3M) retainer.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/15/polit...yer/index.html

Once again, Trump rips off his gullible worshippers, by using donations to a supposed political advocacy organization to pay his personal expenses. And they will continue to send their hard-earned money to him.

You have to admit, it's a pretty good model for Trump. And both parties seem happy with the transaction...that is a good deal. Both parties walk away happy.
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:51 PM   #2693
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"Jews go on the trains, Jews don't go on the trains. I don't have an opinion, I'll just support the rule of law."
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:52 PM   #2694
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To his supporters, saving Trump IS saving America.
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:56 PM   #2695
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
How did Trump manage to get an apparently competent lawyer, former Florida Solicitor General Chris Kice, to work for him? He got his PAC, the Save America PAC, to pay Kice's entire ($3M) retainer.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/15/polit...yer/index.html

Once again, Trump rips off his gullible worshippers, by using donations to a supposed political advocacy organization to pay his personal expenses. And they will continue to send their hard-earned money to him.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
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Old 17th September 2022, 01:18 PM   #2696
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I'd like to see the DOJ invite Trump down to examine the documents and ask him personally on every document. "Does this belong to you?"
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Old 17th September 2022, 01:19 PM   #2697
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Jews go on the trains, Jews don't go on the trains. I don't have an opinion, I'll just support the rule of law."

I'm sure a lot of people felt that way. Based on what the general public knew, it probably didn't sound unreasonable. It is nothing like having some documents stored remotely, though. Of course, no good fear-mongering can exist without a terrifying vision.
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:18 PM   #2698
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm sure a lot of people felt that way. Based on what the general public knew, it probably didn't sound unreasonable. It is nothing like having some documents stored remotely, though. Of course, no good fear-mongering can exist without a terrifying vision.
Conservatism is fear based. Their political motto should be "Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid".
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:33 PM   #2699
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm sure a lot of people felt that way. Based on what the general public knew, it probably didn't sound unreasonable. It is nothing like having some documents stored remotely, though. Of course, no good fear-mongering can exist without a terrifying vision.
When you steal government documents that don't belong to you and put them in your club house basement that's not "remotely storing" them!

it's theft.

I'd ask that you check your moral compass, but you probably can't recall which body of water you pitched it into.
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:52 PM   #2700
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt. It is fun to watch.

I guess he is playing "4D Chess", after all. At least in one regard.
Nothing more important going on than the entertainment value? National security risks, whatever, get the popcorn?
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Old 17th September 2022, 08:38 PM   #2701
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The appeals court has just given Trump's lawyers a deadline to respond to the DoJ's appeal of next tuesday, Sept. 20.

Good sign. This is exceptionally fast.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:30 PM   #2702
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Nothing more important going on than the entertainment value? National security risks, whatever, get the popcorn?
Everything that Trump and his lawyers are doing only exposes his criminality even more!
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Old 18th September 2022, 03:17 AM   #2703
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Let's summarise:

1) A person stole, or allowed to be stolen, classified and sensitive documents from a secure US intelligence facility.
2) They caused the documents to be exposed to all sorts of eyes who should not have seen them.
3) They were caught, and charged under the Espionage Act, and convicted.
4) A VERY long severe custodial sentence was imposed, later commuted by a sitting president.

Quote:
In early 2010, Manning leaked classified information to WikiLeaks and confided this to Adrian Lamo, an online acquaintance.[10] Lamo indirectly informed the Army's Criminal Investigation Command, and Manning was arrested in May that same year.[11] The material included videos of the July 12, 2007, Baghdad airstrike and the 2009 Granai airstrike in Afghanistan; 251,287 U.S. diplomatic cables;[12] and 482,832 Army reports that came to be known as the "Iraq War Logs"[13] and "Afghan War Diary".[14] The material was published by WikiLeaks and its media partners between April 2010 and April 2011.

Manning was charged with 22 offenses, including aiding the enemy, which was the most serious charge and could have resulted in a death sentence.[15] She was held at the Marine Corps Brig, Quantico in Virginia, from July 2010 to April 2011, under Prevention of Injury status—which entailed de facto solitary confinement and other restrictions that caused domestic and international concern[16]—before being transferred to the Joint Regional Correctional Facility at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where she could interact with other detainees.[17] She pleaded guilty in February 2013 to 10 of the charges.[18] The trial on the remaining charges began on June 3, 2013, and on July 30, she was convicted of 17 of the original charges and amended versions of four others, but was acquitted of aiding the enemy.[19] She was sentenced to 35 years at the maximum-security U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth.[20][21] On January 17, 2017, President Barack Obama commuted Manning's sentence to nearly seven years of confinement dating from her arrest in May 2010.[8][22][23]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

So my question: WHY ISN'T TRUMP BEING TREATED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR DOING THE SAME CRIME?
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Old 18th September 2022, 05:01 AM   #2704
Warp12
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Let's summarise:

1) A person stole, or allowed to be stolen, classified and sensitive documents from a secure US intelligence facility.
2) They caused the documents to be exposed to all sorts of eyes who should not have seen them.
3) They were caught, and charged under the Espionage Act, and convicted.
4) A VERY long severe custodial sentence was imposed, later commuted by a sitting president.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

So my question: WHY ISN'T TRUMP BEING TREATED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR DOING THE SAME CRIME?

Because the two scenarios are completely different. Obviously. Silly comparison.

And, we don't yet know the extent to which he will be charged. Maybe Dem prayers will be answered.
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Old 18th September 2022, 05:13 AM   #2705
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You know what, nobody ever lies to cover up an absence of wrongdoing.
That, in and of itself, should tell you everything you really need to know in this case.
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Old 18th September 2022, 06:50 AM   #2706
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
You know what, nobody ever lies to cover up an absence of wrongdoing.
That, in and of itself, should tell you everything you really need to know in this case.
To be fair, in Trump's case, I wouldn't be so sure. He lies in any situation. He simply has no concept of truth.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:19 AM   #2707
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Standing up for rule of law means not accepting allegations at face value. It means not issuing convictions without due process. But you are doing both those things. And still you have the gall, the rudeness, the dishonesty, to accuse others of your own sins.

Physician, beam, etc.
From up there on your high horse, perhaps you failed to notice this isn't a court of law. We have the freedom to take in the facts and form opinions based on said facts.

Oh by the way, OJ Simpson is innocent, right? (Rhetorical of course.) Let's not allow reality to get in the way here.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:23 AM   #2708
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Let's summarise:

1) A person stole, or allowed to be stolen, classified and sensitive documents from a secure US intelligence facility.
2) They caused the documents to be exposed to all sorts of eyes who should not have seen them.
3) They were caught, and charged under the Espionage Act, and convicted.
4) A VERY long severe custodial sentence was imposed, later commuted by a sitting president.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

So my question: WHY ISN'T TRUMP BEING TREATED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR DOING THE SAME CRIME?
I agree that Trump did something terrible. But Manning sent a lot more documents to a site that would publish them. It's not a great comparison. Disclosure to the whole public was Manning's aim (to be fair, her motive was not nefarious). Trump's purpose is unknown.

I think that Trump should be indicted, but I don't think that Trump's alleged crime has the same features as Manning's.
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Old 18th September 2022, 10:04 AM   #2709
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
The Trump filing, a grievance case against the FBI, ends with:
https://blogger.googleusercontent.co...%20florida.jpg
He had the best Festivus.
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Old 18th September 2022, 10:06 AM   #2710
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Is a small delay going to change the outcome?
This is Trump 101. This is what money buys you in the court of law.
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Old 18th September 2022, 10:46 AM   #2711
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
This is Trump 101. This is what money buys you in the court of law.
Moreover, it's pretty typical of grifters, in general, to stall when they are backed in a corner. Tell the mark their money is coming next week due to a problem with the bank. In the meantime, they hope to get an "investment" from a new mark to pay off the older ones. That sort of thing.

I imagine Trump thinks if he can delay until he can legitimately throw his hat in the ring for 2024, he's safe because of the FBI policy about interfering with elections. I'm not sure it will save him this time, but who can say for sure?
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Old 18th September 2022, 11:28 AM   #2712
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Because the two scenarios are completely different. Obviously. Silly comparison.

And, we don't yet know the extent to which he will be charged. Maybe Dem prayers will be answered.
Correct. It does seem that it's almost exclusively Dems who want to see Trump face the consequences of his lies and actions. Lies and actions for which there is overwhelming and increasing evidence of criminality. Thanks for recognizing that; it's refreshing for a change.
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Old 18th September 2022, 03:07 PM   #2713
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Moreover, it's pretty typical of grifters, in general, to stall when they are backed in a corner. Tell the mark their money is coming next week due to a problem with the bank. In the meantime, they hope to get an "investment" from a new mark to pay off the older ones. That sort of thing.

I imagine Trump thinks if he can delay until he can legitimately throw his hat in the ring for 2024, he's safe because of the FBI policy about interfering with elections. I'm not sure it will save him this time, but who can say for sure?
If Trump runs, it will only save him during the election. There is no way he can win, without actually stealing electoral votes by congress meddling in the count.

It does not seem worth the effort. Maybe he is just addicted to his adoring rally crowds?
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Old 18th September 2022, 03:10 PM   #2714
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
If Trump runs, it will only save him during the election. There is no way he can win, without actually stealing electoral votes by congress meddling in the count.

It does not seem worth the effort. Maybe he is just addicted to his adoring rally crowds?
I'd say that's a big part of it.

Meanwhile, is the US legal system incapable of untangling this kind of thing? Or are the participants making so much money that they relish these interminable cases?
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Old 18th September 2022, 06:24 PM   #2715
Regnad Kcin
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What’s that, you say? You took hundreds of secret, classified documents that never belonged to you and have repeatedly rufused to hand them over? Maybe a night or two in the slammer could get some blood flowing to your head, no offense. Yes, it’s nice you were once the president, but you’re a private citizen now. C’mon, look on the bright side, in the pen there’s probably also going to be a hooker or two!
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Old 18th September 2022, 06:57 PM   #2716
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
If Trump runs, it will only save him during the election. There is no way he can win, without actually stealing electoral votes by congress meddling in the count.

It does not seem worth the effort. Maybe he is just addicted to his adoring rally crowds?
No. Trump has gaslighted himself into believing his own lies. He believes he can win because he really won the 2020 election and it was only the stealing of votes due to fraud and the voting machines changing votes that he allegedly lost. With red state "the election was stolen" supporters voted into the state legislatures and as S of States, they will prevent this 'travesty' from happening again and he'll win just like he did in 2020.

But, yes...he his definitely addicted to his adoring rally crowds. He can't go back to just being a "rich tycoon" getting attention in gossip magazines and having a TV show.
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Old 18th September 2022, 07:57 PM   #2717
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Trump, at a rally for J. D. Vance

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...o-kim-jong-un/
Quote:
Former President Trump on Saturday said Ohio Senate candidate J.D. Vance is “in love” with him and “kissing my ass” for support, comparing the GOP candidate’s change of heart toward him to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.
Unreal.
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Old 18th September 2022, 08:39 PM   #2718
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Ironically, Trump CAN'T announce his run for 2024, because then all the donations for him will get a much higher level of scrutiny.
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Old 18th September 2022, 08:48 PM   #2719
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I agree that Trump did something terrible. But Manning sent a lot more documents to a site that would publish them.
Even one is enough to break the law. And "publish"?? How about "give them to your national enemies free and gratis".

Quote:
It's not a great comparison. Disclosure to the whole public was Manning's aim (to be fair, her motive was not nefarious). Trump's purpose is unknown.
Irrelevant. It was done on purpose in both cases.

Quote:
I think that Trump should be indicted, but I don't think that Trump's alleged crime has the same features as Manning's.
I do. As outlined above.
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Old 18th September 2022, 09:11 PM   #2720
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
Trump, at a rally for J. D. Vance

Quote:
Former President Trump on Saturday said Ohio Senate candidate J.D. Vance is “in love” with him and “kissing my ass” for support, comparing the GOP candidate’s change of heart toward him to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...o-kim-jong-un/

Unreal.
Someone hand me a bucket.
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