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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 130 76.92%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.37%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 17.16%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.55%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 23rd September 2022, 04:16 PM   #2921
TellyKNeasuss
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The President holds a unique position in our society, assuredly, but the question is, does a former President hold a unique legal position in our society? That is, should the law treat a former president differently? Or is the former president now just like a regular citizen in terms of the law? I don't see anything in our traditions, customs, law, constitution, etc., that would suggest that a former president is anything but a citizen, legally.
According to Judge Cannon, a former president is entitled to special treatment by the courts.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 04:21 PM   #2922
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
. . .
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Them's the true believers right there.
Frankly, I'm relieved it's only a third.
Never mind that Trump has admitted it and denied it. Almost in the same breath.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 04:26 PM   #2923
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Judge Cannon ended up screwing Trump. She went ahead and modified her order after getting slapped by the appeals court, which basically removed the chance for Trump to take the issue of the 103 classified documents to SCOTUS. Oops!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...95425458ebe6ee
Ooooops.

And now he's being bitch slapped by the special master at a $1000@hr plus expenses and if he doesn't pay the bill within 7 days of the invoice he'll be held in contempt.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:27 PM   #2924
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
That, and so many other things written regarding treating trump with kid gloves, are a sad reflection on the current state of American society. The country that once rebelled against the tyranny of kings has effectively adopted a royalty of their own and set them up as above the law that applies to all other citizens. Your country, and your legal system, should be very ashamed of this attitude. I cannot imagine a former Canadian prime minister being treated with such deference after committing a treasonous crime.
This Canuck is also shaking his head over the bizarre American adoption of its version of 'royalty.' It should be cause for national shame that a hungry hobo can get sent to prison for shoplifting a few bucks worth of food, while the upper crust who rob the nation of millions get the kid glove treatment.

Actually, it's a global problem; even we up here in The Great White North have something of a two-tiered system.

But the so called bastion of democracy and the rule of law has degenerated to an atrocious degree that stands out. Particularly so given the fervor in chest thumping.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:45 PM   #2925
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Those two questions would establish that he's in violation of the Presidential Records Act, but that law has no consequences (there's no punishment for violation).

You need a bit more for teethier violations, like the Espionage Act.
What has happened to other citizens who had secret documents in their possession outside of the proper facility? Even when ill intent was known to not be an element of the misfeasance? The same considerations and treatment must befall everyone else.

This red herring of the need to peer into Drumpf's skull in order to divine intent is immaterial. Unless it is to charge additional crimes, such as espionage.

This national need, to a degree of seeming desperation, to want to believe that their President is in actuality a naive innocent, an ignorant buffoon stumbling through his term with not even minimally competent advisers to keep him from accidentally pulling a dumb, and is therefore beyond blame, stupifies me. This is truly cognitive dissonance.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:54 PM   #2926
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
They would certainly have tried, and it would also have been tremendously destructive and divisive for the country, much more so than Clinton's impeachment, which should never have happened. I'm all for prosecuting as many of Trump's ilk as possible, just as dozens of Nixon's co-conspirators, including the Attorney General, went to prison. But the plain fact is that the President does hold a unique position in our society, and that has to be a consideration. That's why Ford pardoned Nixon, for which he was criticized at the time but which is generally agreed now was the right decision.
Generally agreed by whom? A majority? What if a majority now want to see Dump convicted and jailed? Would that not be 'generally agreed' upon?

Besides, why this desperate need to hoist POTUS to an exalted position that puts him above the laws that every one else is constrained by? That's insane, because then you have effectively a king.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:01 PM   #2927
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
That's good news. Trump wastes too much US public money as it is, and his pathetic flailing about is always best curtailed early.
Has any one individual American ever cost his society so much? If we toss in the hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths on his little hands, I would strenuously argue no contest. But taking those needlessly lost souls off the table and just totting up the monetary damage, does the syphilitic sphincter still take top billing?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:39 PM   #2928
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
What has happened to other citizens who had secret documents in their possession outside of the proper facility? Even when ill intent was known to not be an element of the misfeasance? The same considerations and treatment must befall everyone else.
I'll remind you that Segnosaur's questions were:
Quote:
- Are these government documents?
- Were they in your possession?
He didn't raise issues of confidentiality. Hence, while this would be enough for a violation of the Presidential Records Act (I think), it wouldn't violate the Espionage or other acts.

For that matter, I have heard that there are standards used by the DOJ that might preclude prosecution for accidental misuse of classified documents in certain cases and these standards applied in Hillary's case, for instance. I don't recall the details and don't know if they would apply to Trump, but I doubt it (since one document was, per anonymous sources, about another country's weapons, including nuclear).

Quote:
This red herring of the need to peer into Drumpf's skull in order to divine intent is immaterial. Unless it is to charge additional crimes, such as espionage.
I wasn't referring to that at all. I doubt that a court will take seriously this notion of declassification without any record of it at all. Boy, I hope not.

Quote:
This national need, to a degree of seeming desperation, to want to believe that their President is in actuality a naive innocent, an ignorant buffoon stumbling through his term with not even minimally competent advisers to keep him from accidentally pulling a dumb, and is therefore beyond blame, stupifies me. This is truly cognitive dissonance.
No idea what you're talking about here. I think you've misread me.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:18 PM   #2929
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I doubt that a court will take seriously this notion of declassification without any record of it at all. Boy, I hope not.
To me, it seems implausible that a court could recognize something as having been a presidential act if it was neither publicly announced nor documented in any way. Relying on 1 or 2 parties to a private conversation to "verify" that the president made a statement that changed the legality of something doesn't at all seem like a valid basis for making judicial rulings. But I have yet to hear a lawyer state this.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:29 PM   #2930
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If a president can silently declassify documents, then can someone charged with illegally possessing classified documents subpoena everyone who was president since those particular documents were created to testify as to whether or not they silently declassified the documents?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:41 PM   #2931
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
. . .

Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Them's the true believers right there.
Frankly, I'm relieved it's only a third.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:43 PM   #2932
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Judge Cannon ended up screwing Trump. She went ahead and modified her order after getting slapped by the appeals court, which basically removed the chance for Trump to take the issue of the 103 classified documents to SCOTUS. Oops!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...95425458ebe6ee
Quote:
Vladeck agreed that the odds of there being five votes to override the ruling — even on a court stacked with Trump appointees — are "exceedingly close to zero."
Alito, Thomas, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, Barrett: "Hold our beers!"
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:23 PM   #2933
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Extremely concerning. The Marquette Law School national survey finds that "33% of adults say they do not believe Donald Trump had top secret and other classified material at his Mar-a-Lago estate this summer [and] 61% of Republicans say he did not have such secret documents." Link to poll on Marquette website

After trump has admitted to having them? What does JoeMorgue call them? The "proudly wrong."
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:46 PM   #2934
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The President holds a unique position in our society, assuredly, but the question is, does a former President hold a unique legal position in our society? That is, should the law treat a former president differently? Or is the former president now just like a regular citizen in terms of the law? I don't see anything in our traditions, customs, law, constitution, etc., that would suggest that a former president is anything but a citizen, legally.

Agreed. He has neither more rights nor fewer rights than anyone else.

A country either has a rule of law or doesn’t have a rule of law.
I, like many on this board, consider the rule of law to be an integral part of America.


ETA I spoke with a judge who explained that in making their rulings, they cannot consider the effects on society. It is not their job to think about what is best for the country. It is their job to apply the law objectively and fairly.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:32 PM   #2935
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Agreed. He has neither more rights nor fewer rights than anyone else.

A country either has a rule of law or doesn’t have a rule of law.
I, like many on this board, consider the rule of law to be an integral part of America.

ETA I spoke with a judge who explained that in making their rulings, they cannot consider the effects on society. It is not their job to think about what is best for the country. It is their job to apply the law objectively and fairly.

The question is whether a former President should be prosecuted, and for what. That's a decision made by U.S. attorneys and district attorneys, not judges. They decide what goes to trial, and they exercise discretion every day. They don't prosecute every case they see, and they don't always charge the most severe crimes they could, any more than a police officer writes tickets for every traffic infraction he observes. I personally would like to see Trump behind bars. But a compelling case has to be made not only to a jury, but to the American people. I say again I don't think it's a slam dunk.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:51 PM   #2936
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It should be a no-brainer that Presidents should be ESPECIALLY prosecuted for crimes they only could commit BECAUSE they were Presidents: if you don't criminalize Abuse of Power, you might as well not have any Rule of Law.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:49 PM   #2937
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It should be a no-brainer that Presidents should be ESPECIALLY prosecuted for crimes they only could commit BECAUSE they were Presidents: if you don't criminalize Abuse of Power, you might as well not have any Rule of Law.
Good point. Because that's exactly what this is.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:50 PM   #2938
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It should be a no-brainer that Presidents should be ESPECIALLY prosecuted for crimes they only could commit BECAUSE they were Presidents: if you don't criminalize Abuse of Power,....
... then failure to do so will result in you getting leaders like Vladimir Putin, Benito Mussolini, Augusto Pinochet, Leopoldo Galtieri, Adolph Hitler, Kim Jong-un and his father Kim Jong-Il.

Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely!
- John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton (Lord Acton)
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Old 24th September 2022, 12:06 AM   #2939
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Judge Cannon ended up screwing Trump. She went ahead and modified her order after getting slapped by the appeals court, which basically removed the chance for Trump to take the issue of the 103 classified documents to SCOTUS. Oops!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...95425458ebe6ee
She is smart enough...just...to understand that her original ruling was hideously awful and was sending her to professional oblivion. The appellate decision gave her a glimpse of a way out. She "suddenly decided" she was not going to flame her career for Trump after all.
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Old 24th September 2022, 12:12 AM   #2940
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Extremely concerning. The Marquette Law School national survey finds that "33% of adults say they do not believe Donald Trump had top secret and other classified material at his Mar-a-Lago estate this summer [and] 61% of Republicans say he did not have such secret documents." Link to poll on Marquette website

After trump has admitted to having them? What does JoeMorgue call them? The "proudly wrong."
Dearie has asked Trump to bring his evidence to court that these "never existed" documents were planted by the FBI. Put up or shut up.

So what will these Proudly Wrong say when Donny's team produces nothing? Stand by for the next pathetic excuse.
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Old 24th September 2022, 01:35 AM   #2941
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Trump's selected Master, Trump's attorney and Trump's appointed judges are all Antifa agents, apparently.
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Old 24th September 2022, 03:25 AM   #2942
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump's selected Master, Trump's attorney and Trump's appointed judges are all Antifa agents, apparently.
I promise you that if The Fat Orange Turd actually makes that claim, his MAGA moron sycophants will believe unquestioningly!
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Old 24th September 2022, 03:51 AM   #2943
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump's selected Master, Trump's attorney and Trump's appointed judges are all Antifa agents, apparently.
And to consider how extraordinary that a few pissweak weak-ass libtards can cause so much havoc for the greatest, most powerful American hero the world has ever known and his top-of-the-line legal superheroes.
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Old 24th September 2022, 04:09 AM   #2944
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
And to consider how extraordinary that a few pissweak weak-ass libtards can cause so much havoc for the greatest, most powerful American hero the world has ever known and his top-of-the-line legal superheroes.
Only the best people don'tchaknow!
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Old 24th September 2022, 04:54 AM   #2945
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Has anyone heard anything FoxNews has said about the Special Master? Are they on the attack? Or just ignoring it?
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Old 24th September 2022, 05:10 AM   #2946
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Has anyone heard anything FoxNews has said about the Special Master? Are they on the attack? Or just ignoring it?
As near as I can tell, their reaction has been...


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Old 24th September 2022, 06:35 AM   #2947
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If I, a non-lawyer, were to find myself in court having to argue against Trump's claim to have verbally declassified documents, I would advance 2 arguments:

- It would be untenable for a court to hold that a president could change the legality of an activity (in this case, the ability for a person without a security clearance to possess certain documents) by a simple verbal statement in an unrecorded, undocumented, and possibly private conversation the contents of which exist solely in the memories of those who were present.

- As the president is the final authority over classification, the president must be able to ascertain the classification status of existing documents. It would therefore be an abrogation of the president's authority in matters of classification if a predecessor's decisions to change the classification status of existing documents could not be determined.

How far would I get?
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Old 24th September 2022, 06:50 AM   #2948
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Extremely concerning. The Marquette Law School national survey finds that "33% of adults say they do not believe Donald Trump had top secret and other classified material at his Mar-a-Lago estate this summer [and] 61% of Republicans say he did not have such secret documents." Link to poll on Marquette website

After trump has admitted to having them? What does JoeMorgue call them? The "proudly wrong."
But he didn't have any. He declassified them with his Jedi mind-trick!
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Old 24th September 2022, 07:35 AM   #2949
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Who can declassify with a wave of a hand, or a thought?
Any dictator can.
Once again Trump is expressing the kind of power he believes he should have and have it right now.
33% or more Americans are willing to give him that power.
I don't understand how the USA would be able to have an actual functioning democracy with so many of its citizens not able, not willing to function in and uphold one.
If Trump is not held accountable by rule of law, a rule of the autocrat is forthcoming.
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Old 24th September 2022, 08:09 AM   #2950
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He declassified another one!
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Old 24th September 2022, 08:54 AM   #2951
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I think this point has been raised already but I still wonder if there is a good answer.

If a President can declassify documents with the magic of his mind, cannot an actual sitting President classify documents using the same technique. Binden can then surely reclassify the document that T has or classify any documents in the USA including your last weeks shopping list? That's some slippery slope!
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Old 24th September 2022, 09:08 AM   #2952
pgwenthold
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I forgot a possible FoxNews response: talk about Hilary Clinton and Hunter Biden.
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Old 24th September 2022, 09:11 AM   #2953
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The question is whether a former President should be prosecuted, and for what. That's a decision made by U.S. attorneys and district attorneys, not judges. They decide what goes to trial, and they exercise discretion every day. They don't prosecute every case they see, and they don't always charge the most severe crimes they could, any more than a police officer writes tickets for every traffic infraction he observes. I personally would like to see Trump behind bars. But a compelling case has to be made not only to a jury, but to the American people. I say again I don't think it's a slam dunk.
Why does the case have to be made to the American people if the case can be made to a jury?
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Old 24th September 2022, 10:37 AM   #2954
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To get us past Trump? To avoid Proud Boys riot?

None of the violence would coordinate well, the Jan 6th events were unusual as they were tied to the election and the electoral count.
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Old 24th September 2022, 11:46 AM   #2955
TellyKNeasuss
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Why does the case have to be made to the American people if the case can be made to a jury?
Trump is not only a former president, he is potentially a future presidential candidate for the major party that currently is not in power. Therefore, there needs to be an assurance to the American people that Trump really did commit a serious offense (or, more likely, offenses) and that it isn't just a case of eliminating a contender for the presidency.
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Old 24th September 2022, 11:49 AM   #2956
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Trump is not only a former president, he is potentially a future presidential candidate for the major party that currently is not in power. Therefore, there needs to be an assurance to the American people that Trump really did commit a serious offense (or, more likely, offenses) and that it isn't just a case of eliminating a contender for the presidency.
everyone is a potential future President. Yet Trump is the first to demand that that should get him special consideration.
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Old 24th September 2022, 12:36 PM   #2957
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The other side of the coin is that we want a political system in which the purely political prosecution of a political candidate or a sitting officer holder is nearly impossible.

Trump shrewdly plays this desire by constantly claiming he's being persecuted by his political opponents. It seems to me that as his misdeeds get more and more obvious he's only ramped up the language.

What I don't understand is why Trump insists on doing things that push that criminal envelope, thus prompting prosecutors and the general public to in effect say, "We can't let this go, Former Guy."
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Old 24th September 2022, 12:45 PM   #2958
Paul2
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Trump is not only a former president, he is potentially a future presidential candidate for the major party that currently is not in power. Therefore, there needs to be an assurance to the American people that Trump really did commit a serious offense (or, more likely, offenses) and that it isn't just a case of eliminating a contender for the presidency.
What G.Z. said.
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Old 24th September 2022, 12:47 PM   #2959
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The other side of the coin is that we want a political system in which the purely political prosecution of a political candidate or a sitting officer holder is nearly impossible.
The way you do that is to foster in the institutions the values of professionalism and service to the country, which is just what Trump can not even imagine.
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Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
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Old 24th September 2022, 02:07 PM   #2960
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The way you do that is to foster in the institutions the values of professionalism and service to the country, which is just what Trump can not even imagine.
Trump not only cannot imagine this, he actively and specifically refuses to engage in it when confronted with the need. In fact, he deliberately goes against these ethics.

So rather than "foster", it needs to be "enforced". For a start, every political candidate should be required to pass a basic civics test to ensure they can actually understand and perform the job they are standing for. Fail, and no candidacy. It's a basic job-hire requirement almost everywhere else that you need to have relevant knowledge and skills to take to your job application. Why not for politicians?

Then there needs to be immediate and firm discipline if they stray outside certain guidelines. Every company has its HR and office ethical standards. Breach them and actions follow, up to and including dismissal. Why not for politicians too?
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