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Tags putin , russia , Russia-Ukraine war , ukraine , Zelensky

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Old 28th September 2022, 12:28 PM   #2241
Oystein
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
...the escalated conventional response from the West would be sufficient to end the Russian Federation, and their remaining nukes would be taken from them.

...
Congratulations! You just spelled out two (out of four) of the enumerated conditions that WILL trigger a strategic nuclear response according to current Russian nuclear doctrine:
+ When the existence of the Russian Federation is threatened
+ When someone tries to take out Russia's nuclear capabilities.
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Old 28th September 2022, 12:37 PM   #2242
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
This time they'll be real people with real guns who really know how to use them pointed at Segal.
Like Alec Baldwin? Oh, wait, no, that last part...
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Old 28th September 2022, 12:40 PM   #2243
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Trying to get to the other guy's nukes first seems like a mug's game...

... or a desparate last-minute move.
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Old 28th September 2022, 12:44 PM   #2244
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Somehow I just keep conjuring this image from Dr. Zhivago with the troops in the mud on the German front. An officer is yelling at them that the Germans were coming to rape and pillage until the officer is shot by one of the soldiers and the troops start walking home.
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Old 28th September 2022, 12:44 PM   #2245
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Congratulations! You just spelled out two (out of four) of the enumerated conditions that WILL trigger a strategic nuclear response according to current Russian nuclear doctrine:
+ When the existence of the Russian Federation is threatened
+ When someone tries to take out Russia's nuclear capabilities.
Who would they nuke if a multi-national force rolled tanks through Moscow? At the end of the day, nuclear doctrine is just talk -- or in the case of Russia, a belligerent posture. Russia can't bully the world merely because they have nukes, since the nations that oppose them also have nukes. As long as all you see in a bully is how they can hurt you, then you will never be able to stop the bullying.
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Old 28th September 2022, 12:55 PM   #2246
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Who would they nuke if a multi-national force rolled tanks through Moscow? At the end of the day, nuclear doctrine is just talk -- or in the case of Russia, a belligerent posture. Russia can't bully the world merely because they have nukes, since the nations that oppose them also have nukes. As long as all you see in a bully is how they can hurt you, then you will never be able to stop the bullying.
The entire Cold War was literally Russia bullying the rest of the world because they have nukes. What they're doing to Ukraine right now is the same thing they did to Eastern Europe, behind the Iron Curtain.

Nukes are a license to carry out any atrocity you please, as long as the only effective counter is to destroy you.

And to answer your question: They would nuke the Arsenal of Democracy. Where do you imagine a multi-national force gets its operational depth and persistence from?
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Old 28th September 2022, 12:58 PM   #2247
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Who would they nuke if a multi-national force rolled tanks through Moscow?
I mean, good luck with that.

Quote:
At the end of the day, nuclear doctrine is just talk -- or in the case of Russia, a belligerent posture. Russia can't bully the world merely because they have nukes, since the nations that oppose them also have nukes. As long as all you see in a bully is how they can hurt you, then you will never be able to stop the bullying.
MAD is just talk until it isn't.
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Old 28th September 2022, 01:16 PM   #2248
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The entire Cold War was literally Russia bullying the rest of the world because they have nukes. What they're doing to Ukraine right now is the same thing they did to Eastern Europe, behind the Iron Curtain.

Nukes are a license to carry out any atrocity you please, as long as the only effective counter is to destroy you.

And to answer your question: They would nuke the Arsenal of Democracy. Where do you imagine a multi-national force gets its operational depth and persistence from?
I'm sure they'd spare a nuke each for London, Berlin, Paris, and Brussels. Was going to say Warsaw but they probably have aspirations of conquering Poland.
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Old 28th September 2022, 01:22 PM   #2249
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Let us not forget that early in the war, the Russian trucks could not perform due to lack of rotation on their truck tires.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/r...es-188142.html
I can see Russia sending 150K new conscripts to the front right in time for mud season when it has no way to keep them fed because their logistics are so bad.
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Old 28th September 2022, 01:35 PM   #2250
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I think you're saying "The Ukrainians are giving their Russian prisoners of war better health and sanitation than the Russian army was." Am I correct?
Yeah, sorry. Fingers were going faster than my brain.
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Old 28th September 2022, 01:39 PM   #2251
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
about the devastation to the planet following a nuclear attack by Russia:

since 1945, over 2,100 nuclear detonations have occurred, with a total yield of over 510 Megatons (or roughly 1,000x the power of an average warhead).

and yet we are still here, and there is no nuclear winter.

Getting hit by a nuke would suck for everyone involved, and everyone downwind. But it would require an all-out nuclear exchange between Russia and USA to cause irreparable harm.
The problem with that is that they weren't all at once like a MAD scenario exchange would be. Also, where you detonate a nuke matters. The smoke from all the fires caused by a nuclear blast play a significant role in a nuclear winter. We didn't detonate nukes in places with as much material to burn as a city or a military base with lots of adjacent petrochemicals.
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Old 28th September 2022, 01:42 PM   #2252
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I strongly doubt that the West would respond with a nuclear strike if Russia used tactical nukes in Ukraine. Unless it was Russia's intention to end the world as we know it, the escalated conventional response from the West would be sufficient to end the Russian Federation, and their remaining nukes would be taken from them.

I think there's no question that the West is sufficiently powerful to swat Russia into oblivion without using nukes... if sufficiently provoked, of course. Putin, as idiotic as he can be at times, fully knows this.
WHOA yeah, no, bad....really bad. Nuclear use or lose is what we need to be avoiding here. Russia will use their weapons now if they think they won't be able to use them later.
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Old 28th September 2022, 02:13 PM   #2253
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'm sure they'd spare a nuke each for London, Berlin, Paris, and Brussels. Was going to say Warsaw but they probably have aspirations of conquering Poland.
I for one am not in a hurry for all countries to test their Fail-Safe programs. You know there's bound to be flaws in some of them (Judging by your avatar...)
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Old 28th September 2022, 03:32 PM   #2254
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
The US is sending 18 more HIMARS to Ukraine, although they won't be dispatched immediately.

From CNN:
The US Department of Defense announced an additional $1.1 billion in security assistance for Ukraine under the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, meaning the money will be spent to manufacture and provide new weapons to Ukraine. These weapons will not come directly from pre-existing US stocks of weapons.

Eighteen High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems and “associated ammunitions,” are included in the package, the release states.

The package also includes 150 Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles, 40 trucks and 80 trailers to “transport heavy equipment,” additional radars for Unmanned Aerial Systems, among other items.
Double the HIMARS double the fun!
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Old 28th September 2022, 03:33 PM   #2255
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
WHOA yeah, no, bad....really bad. Nuclear use or lose is what we need to be avoiding here. Russia will use their weapons now if they think they won't be able to use them later.
The context of my post is contingent on Russia having already used nukes in Ukraine.
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Old 28th September 2022, 03:57 PM   #2256
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The context of my post is contingent on Russia having already used nukes in Ukraine.
Jesus Christ, dude. Think this through. They're not going to use all their nukes in Ukraine. They're not going to use all their nukes at all, unless you give them reason to. Which is exactly what you propose to do.
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Old 28th September 2022, 04:09 PM   #2257
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The context of my post is contingent on Russia having already used nukes in Ukraine.
Yeah, but you seemed to think if those Russian tactical battlefield nukes provoked a massive NATO conventional attack, Russia would not respond to that with more tactical nukes. I couldn't see why you'd think that. (Or did you suppose Russia's first step with such weapons would be to obliterate Kyiv? I couldn't tell.)
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Old 28th September 2022, 04:31 PM   #2258
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Eva Bartlett summarizes her experiences during the referendums in an interview on RT:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Slava Novorussia!
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Old 28th September 2022, 04:33 PM   #2259
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Eva Bartlett summarizes her experiences during the referendums in an interview on RT:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Slava Novorussia!
I suppose the good news from this post is that the Kremlin isn't encouraging us to take their nuclear threats seriously. They're still pushing the "referendum" angle.
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Old 28th September 2022, 04:34 PM   #2260
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Jesus Christ, dude. Think this through. They're not going to use all their nukes in Ukraine. They're not going to use all their nukes at all, unless you give them reason to. Which is exactly what you propose to do.
I propose no such thing, and I do not expect that Russia will use nukes in Ukraine. This is entirely a speculation of what would happen if they did, based on that specific question asked upthread.
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Old 28th September 2022, 04:35 PM   #2261
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I suppose the good news from this post is that the Kremlin isn't encouraging us to take their nuclear threats seriously. They're still pushing the "referendum" angle.

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Old 28th September 2022, 04:41 PM   #2262
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The context of my post is contingent on Russia having already used nukes in Ukraine.
The context of my post was that we don't want the stupid bastards to use them anywhere else.
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Old 28th September 2022, 04:44 PM   #2263
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Do you people really think your nuclear force is in any better condition than your conventional force? You all are getting your clocks cleaned. You all **** up on the ground, at sea and in the air. Why won't you **** up with your nuclear force? All you people do is **** up.
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Old 28th September 2022, 04:55 PM   #2264
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Yeah, but you seemed to think if those Russian tactical battlefield nukes provoked a massive NATO conventional attack, Russia would not respond to that with more tactical nukes. I couldn't see why you'd think that. (Or did you suppose Russia's first step with such weapons would be to obliterate Kyiv? I couldn't tell.)
No, I think that if Russia used nukes in Ukraine (and I don't think they will), the world would unite against them even more than they have already. The world would escalate all of their responses -- military, diplomatic, and economic -- to defeat Russia with the intention of keeping this crap from happening again.

But I don't think even Putin is foolish enough to start throwing nukes around.
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Old 28th September 2022, 05:11 PM   #2265
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Who would they nuke if a multi-national force rolled tanks through Moscow?
That question almost answers itself: Multiple nations, d'uh.

Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Russia can't bully the world merely because they have nukes,
As others have pointed out: Yes, yes they can. The evidence is that, in fact, they do. If Russia did not bully us (the UK, Poland, US, Germany, Baltics, France...) with their nukes, there'd already be a major build-up of forces along Russia's borders, there'd be no-fly zones. Why? Because Russia's military, outside their nuclear blackmail capabilities, is so damned weak.

Originally Posted by eerok View Post
since the nations that oppose them also have nukes.
Most don't, actually.

Originally Posted by eerok View Post
As long as all you see in a bully is how they can hurt you, then you will never be able to stop the bullying.
You see, bullying is a thing, and will forever remain a thing, and it is a thing because you can't always actually stop the bully.

Wishful thinking is all nice, I agree.
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Old 28th September 2022, 05:15 PM   #2266
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Eva Bartlett summarizes her experiences during the referendums in an interview on RT:

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I AGREE

Slava Novorussia!
She did not interview Yulia and Svieta, did she? Nor explain how the FACT that Yulia and Svieta were not given a chance to make their vote count, which obviously invalidates the entire "referenda", right?
I need not watch the propaganda to know that she is beholding the adult passport-holding citizens of the brutally invaded Ukrainian territories with brutal, cynical ignorance. As do you.
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Old 28th September 2022, 05:30 PM   #2267
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
No, I think that if Russia used nukes in Ukraine (and I don't think they will), the world would unite against them even more than they have already. The world would escalate all of their responses -- military, diplomatic, and economic -- to defeat Russia with the intention of keeping this crap from happening again.

But I don't think even Putin is foolish enough to start throwing nukes around.
If Putin becomes desperate enough to go nuclear, he won't be concerned about isolation and the "family of nations" turning against him. He'll be beyond that.
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Old 28th September 2022, 06:37 PM   #2268
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Does anyone know how much tritium sells for on the black market?
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Old 28th September 2022, 06:39 PM   #2269
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
She did not interview Yulia and Svieta, did she? Nor explain how the FACT that Yulia and Svieta were not given a chance to make their vote count, which obviously invalidates the entire "referenda", right?

Your imaginary friends would have had a chance to vote if the German state would have allowed polling stations at the Russian embassy or consulates. Asking them to come to your one-horse town is a bit much to ask, isn't it?
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Old 28th September 2022, 06:45 PM   #2270
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Eva Bartlett summarizes her experiences during the referendums in an interview on RT:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Slava Novorussia!
You posted it = not worth viewing, all lies.
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Old 28th September 2022, 07:19 PM   #2271
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Your imaginary friends would have had a chance to vote if the German state would have allowed polling stations at the Russian embassy or consulates. Asking them to come to your one-horse town is a bit much to ask, isn't it?
Why should the ballots for a vote in Ukraine be held at the Russian embassy?
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Old 28th September 2022, 11:38 PM   #2272
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Eva Bartlett summarizes her experiences during the referendums in an interview on RT:

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I AGREE

Slava Novorussia!
Interestingly some of the ballots are counted, even though they are totally blank!

It was even on Russian state TV! Its like they don't even care about making it look legit.
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Old 29th September 2022, 12:11 AM   #2273
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Originally Posted by Stylesjl View Post
Interestingly some of the ballots are counted, even though they are totally blank!

It was even on Russian state TV! Its like they don't even care about making it look legit.
just like Trump can declassify information with his mind, Putin can tell how people vote just by looking at a blank page.
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Old 29th September 2022, 12:22 AM   #2274
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Eva Bartlett summarizes her experiences during the referendums in an interview on RT:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Slava Novorussia!
No one cares what the stupid lying ***** you quote say.
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Old 29th September 2022, 12:23 AM   #2275
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Originally Posted by Stylesjl View Post
Interestingly some of the ballots are counted, even though they are totally blank!

It was even on Russian state TV! Its like they don't even care about making it look legit.
They don't

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I wonder how putinophiles can think that a plebiscite held at gun point in an occupied area is going to convince anybody.
https://twitter.com/KristoNurmis/sta...f77YgREhpnIIew

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In other words, what mattered to the Soviets was not catering to western public opinion but making the people participate, to establish Soviet “legitimacy” on the ground.

Evidently, this legitimacy had nothing to do with the liberal notion of the consent of the governed. 11/
Part of a thread arguing with historical context that credibility is not the goal.
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Old 29th September 2022, 12:30 AM   #2276
Craig4
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What Ukrainians think of the referendum is that they just took Novoselivka in the Donetsk region and sent the orcs running when their tails between their legs. They also hit a military warehouse and command center in Kherson. https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/28-sep...-was-destroyed

It doesn't matter what orcs think about the "referendum". It matters what the people shooting at them think.
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Old 29th September 2022, 01:10 AM   #2277
jeremyp
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Who would they nuke if a multi-national force rolled tanks through Moscow? At the end of the day, nuclear doctrine is just talk -- or in the case of Russia, a belligerent posture. Russia can't bully the world merely because they have nukes, since the nations that oppose them also have nukes. As long as all you see in a bully is how they can hurt you, then you will never be able to stop the bullying.
They are bullying the World right now because they have got nukes.

There's plenty enough of an excuse for NATO to escalate its response with all the war crimes that Russia is committing. We wouldn't even need to put boots on the ground: we could bomb the Russian invading armies to oblivion and let the Ukrainians take the actual ground back.

We're not doing that though. We are calibrating our response very carefully so as not to provoke a nuclear response from Russia because that would be a total catastrophe for humanity, even if 90% of their bombs didn't work.
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Old 29th September 2022, 01:12 AM   #2278
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Quote:
Reuters is now carrying the quote from foreign ministry spokesperson*Maria Zakharova. She said:

It happened in the trade and economic zones of Denmark and Sweden. They are Nato-centric countries. They are countries that are completely controlled by the US intelligence services.

Zakharova offered no evidence for the Danish and Swedish governments being “completely controlled by the US intelligence services”. The Nord Stream incident happened in international waters, and not within the territorial waters of Sweden or Denmark. Sweden is not yet a member of Nato.
Sweden is under control of the CIA. Please liberate us into Russian freedom.
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Old 29th September 2022, 01:28 AM   #2279
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Your imaginary friends would have had a chance to vote if the German state would have allowed polling stations at the Russian embassy or consulates. Asking them to come to your one-horse town is a bit much to ask, isn't it?
You ice-cold, cynical *******.
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Old 29th September 2022, 01:35 AM   #2280
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https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-draft/671541/

Quote:
An Army of Zombies Is Leading Us to Hell
This is a good interview with a tech executive who got out before conscription. The good news is that the people leaving are the same people driving what's left of the Russian economy. Sanctions and the economic drivers fleeing, should, at least in theory hasten Russian economic collapse. Economic collapse in Russia will result in military collapse for their forces outside of Russia in occupied Ukraine.
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