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Old 20th September 2022, 10:56 PM   #1
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Extreme racism in Australian Football League club

Yes, I know that Australian Rules is hardly super popular here, but this latest news has hit the competition like a bombshell. This, if true, will be the biggest scandal seen in almost all our sporting history.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-...view/101452320

Quote:
An external review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club will reveal allegations that key figures at the AFL club demanded the separation of young First Nations players from their partners, and pressured one couple to terminate a pregnancy for the sake of the player's career.
By background, Hawthorn is a very rich and successful club, winning four premierships in the past decade or so. But they have a very poor record in recruiting indigenous players, with very few in the 70s and 80s (indigenous players at the elite level are over represented).

Anyway the reports are distressing, but are in extreme detail, with allegations verified by family and partners. Australia has very strong defamation laws, the reporter is very credible and it is certain that the report has been lawyered to death.

That a professional club in modern Australia can demand that indigenous players leave partners and that expected babies be aborted for the player’s career simply leaves me with no words.

All involved must be banned for life from the AFL, but this should go much further. The club must be held responsible for this. I hope Hawthorn are stripped of their recent premierships (there are precedents in other codes), draft picks withdrawn for several years, heavily fined and the club should play for no points next year.

One of my sons is a senior executive with one club (not Hawthorn) and will be feeling physically sick because he knows the people involved. And all this is happening in Grand Final week, where a 100,000 crowd will turn up. It casts a terrible pall.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:21 AM   #2
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Before I read the article, I had assumed that the alleged racism was in the dim, distant past. Then again looking at the Yorkshire Country Cricket team, there's still plenty of racism to go around.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:33 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Before I read the article, I had assumed that the alleged racism was in the dim, distant past. Then again looking at the Yorkshire Country Cricket team, there's still plenty of racism to go around.
No very, very recent.

In a new development the main culprit, coach Alistair Clarkson has made a statement that he has been denied procedural fairness by not being provided a copy of the report. The reporter sent him the article he wrote which I linked, and asked for comments. He did not respond. The report now sits with AFL Integrity.

Before someone says “let’s wait for an investigation”, the report was the result of an investigation commissioned by Hawthorn. This came about after allegations of racism by indigenous players. It’s been investigated.

At no time did Clarkson deny the allegations.

The other interesting thing is the team my son works at tried very hard to appoint Clarkson as coach. He went to another team. Dodged a bullet my son’s team.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:55 AM   #4
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Yeah I'm not a fan of AFL, but I am even more not a fan of racism. This is absolutely disgusting.
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:22 AM   #5
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Looks utterly appalling. I feel very sorry for the players affected, it's a violation of trust from people who should have been looking out for them.

The report mentioned a similar investigation at Collingwood; do you know what happened there?

Dave
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Quote:
An external review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club will reveal allegations that key figures at the AFL club demanded the separation of young First Nations players from their partners, and pressured one couple to terminate a pregnancy for the sake of the player's career.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-...view/101452320
How a coach could think that they could order a player to separate from their partner or demand that they get an abortion is astounding. That they would single out indigenous players is unbelievable.
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Looks utterly appalling. I feel very sorry for the players affected, it's a violation of trust from people who should have been looking out for them.

The report mentioned a similar investigation at Collingwood; do you know what happened there?

Dave
Collingwood’s offences were of much lower order. More casual racism, bad enough, but nothing like enforcing indigenous players to move homes or dump partners.

One thing I fully understand is that AFL clubs invest very heavily in players. The average wage of an AFL player is in the order of $A350,000. So they have a duty and responsibility to ensure the players are cared for. And most clubs do this by employing psychologists, welfare staff and medical staff. They know they have to take special care of valuable assets.

But Hawthorn for some reason decided to adopt a paternalistic, misogynistic and worst of all racist approach to dealing with indigenous players. They deserve to be harshly punished.
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:41 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How a coach could think that they could order a player to separate from their partner or demand that they get an abortion is astounding. That they would single out indigenous players is unbelievable.
The AFL is a master of sweeping problems under the rug. Essendon got off lightly for their “supplement” scandal and even my beloved Demons for tanking.

But there is no way out of this.

One thing that is for certain is that ex-Premier and Hawthorn President Jeff Kennett will no longer have a position of authority again.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 12:38 AM   #9
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This is just disgusting, but I'm afraid to say, I'm not as surprised as I perhaps ought to be. There have been a few incidents of racism involving AFL in recent years, the ones that first come to mind are the way Majak Daw (Kangaroos), Adam Goods (Swans) and Nick Nitanui, (Eagles) were treated by fans, with the booing and for the latter two, the monkey sounds.

However, this, what has happened at the Hawks, is just orders of magnitude worse that anything that happen to the others.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 01:22 AM   #10
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To be honest, while the racism is appalling, I think even without it, it sounds like the most toxic employer imaginable. Like you thought your boss was a bellend, now lemme tell you about Darth Bellend The Toxic who's telling you to have an abortion, or to divorce, because he said so. Like... what in the name of Lucifer Morningstar? It's stuff that needs some setup to not break suspension of disbelief even if you wrote a dystopian novel. Turns out that one guy decided to go even more dystopian IRL than most authors do in fiction.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 04:02 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
To be honest, while the racism is appalling, I think even without it, it sounds like the most toxic employer imaginable. Like you thought your boss was a bellend, now lemme tell you about Darth Bellend The Toxic who's telling you to have an abortion, or to divorce, because he said so. Like... what in the name of Lucifer Morningstar? It's stuff that needs some setup to not break suspension of disbelief even if you wrote a dystopian novel. Turns out that one guy decided to go even more dystopian IRL than most authors do in fiction.
Yes I agree. But I’m certain (and I have more than one child working in the AFL industry) that nearly all clubs are now completely serious about the welfare of their players, particularly the young indigenous ones. Seems like Hawthorn is the outlier. They had an indigenous liaison officer who worked one day week, but asked for more days to do his job properly. The club denied this request, saying they couldn’t afford it.

This man became involved in the investigation which uncovered these appalling events. What you sow, so shall you reap.

Despite the earnest words of the AFL hierarchy there has been no announcement of who will be reviewing this report. And there will not be tomorrow. The AFL desperately wants the season to finish on Saturday and then work through this issue when all clubs and fans have hung up their scarves. But the fallout will still be severe even in the off-season.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 11:15 AM   #12
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Extreme racism in Australian Rules Football League club

OMG!!11!!

There's racism in Australia? Against Indigenous people?

I'm shocked.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 02:30 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
To be honest, while the racism is appalling, I think even without it, it sounds like the most toxic employer imaginable. Like you thought your boss was a bellend, now lemme tell you about Darth Bellend The Toxic who's telling you to have an abortion, or to divorce, because he said so. Like... what in the name of Lucifer Morningstar? It's stuff that needs some setup to not break suspension of disbelief even if you wrote a dystopian novel. Turns out that one guy decided to go even more dystopian IRL than most authors do in fiction.
Yes, I cannot imagine an employer thinking that breaking up a marriage is going to help their players. It's bizarre, cruel and almost certainly counter-productive.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 03:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, I cannot imagine an employer thinking that breaking up a marriage is going to help their players. It's bizarre, cruel and almost certainly counter-productive.

Yes I agree and cannot see the sense of it.

I would like someone to explain the logic behind it.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 03:09 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I agree and cannot see the sense of it.

I would like someone to explain the logic behind it.
I think you know if you are from Queensland.

It’s the old racist/paternalistic rubbish that young indigenous people are not capable of managing their own affairs and need the guidance and even force of white masters to succeed.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 04:56 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I agree and cannot see the sense of it.

I would like someone to explain the logic behind it.

It's what every employer wants: "It'll be so much more convenient for me if you have no personal life whatsoever, mmmkay?" But in this case, they apparently only thought they could get away with demanding it when the employees were indigenous people.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 11:36 PM   #17
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Not so sure about "every". I mean, you'd imagine that statistically there aren't enough psychopaths for that. And then even those seem to not all be dumb psychopaths. You'd think at least some are capable to understand stuff like that it's also not productive if the employee is a depressed wreck. Or that it doesn't help with turnover.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 04:50 AM   #18
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As background to all of this, there is a lot of racism in Australia. Has been since 1788.
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Old 28th September 2022, 08:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
OMG!!11!!

There's racism in Australia? Against Indigenous people?

I'm shocked.
What's shocking is that it was so blatant and it went on for so long without being called out.
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Old 28th September 2022, 09:26 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What's shocking is that it was so blatant and it went on for so long without being called out.
If Clarkson and Fagan are to get off, the women who were subject to the alleged appalling behaviour and those close to them who confirmed what happened must be lying. I do not believe that young women, one who had an abortion and one who miscarried, would make up their stories. If they did it would constitute a sizeable conspiracy which would be difficult for young people to maintain.
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Old 28th September 2022, 10:43 PM   #21
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Almost a third of Indigenous AFL athletes and players of colour experienced racism, survey finds

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Player’s association says reports of vilification from within the industry are ‘concerning’


Almost a third of 92 AFL players who identified as Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander or a person of colour experienced racism while listed as a player, according to a new survey from the players’ union.

The survey also found less than one-fifth of AFL players who have experienced racism in the game felt their matter was sufficiently dealt with and showed “concerning” incidences of vilification from people in the industry.

The AFL Players’ Association’s first Insights and Impact Report, released on Thursday amid the disturbing allegations of the Hawthorn racism review, found that of the 92 players surveyed who identified as Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander or a person of colour, 29 had experienced racism while listed as an AFL player.

Of those, only 17% felt the incidents were dealt with entirely to their satisfaction while 21% felt they were “somewhat or partially” dealt with and 62% felt they were not dealt with at all.

“This disappointing response highlights an area of future focus for the industry,” the report said.

Fifteen of the 29 said they had experienced racism within the last 12 months.

The most common incidents of racism were reported to have occurred on social media (26), with spectators at games being the next most prevalent (13), followed by when playing at community level (10), publicly (10) and in the media (4).

However, what the AFLPA found “more concerning were reported incidences of vilification from people within the industry”. These included three inflicted by players or staff of other clubs, two by the AFL, two by teammates and one by staff at their own club.

Not all players surveyed provided the source of the racism.
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Old 29th September 2022, 01:07 AM   #22
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Given the UK reports I am astonished that only a third had been subject to racism. The Australian example seems to be unique in the application of the racism, the assumption that adults need to be treated like children.
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Old 29th September 2022, 01:18 AM   #23
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Not sure how it works in sport, but racism isn't always flat out hatred and wanting them out. That's a very recent phenomenon. Historically it's always been more like just thinking they're less able in some way, from not being fit for the jobs "we" want dibs on, to the paternalistic attitude that they can't even care for themselves without us as their bosses.

And by "historically" I mean basically every point along the time axis between Aristotle (whose main argument for slavery was exactly that those barbarians are too unfit to even take care of themselves and we're doing them a favour by enslaving them) and the 19'th century "mission to civilize" and beyond, well into the 20'th century.

Outright hating them really mostly happened in the USA after they got freed and then the rights movement happened. As is always the case when some people lose their privileges, really. At least until very recently when some people elsewhere decided to hate refugees and whatnot too.
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Old 29th September 2022, 02:15 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Given the UK reports I am astonished that only a third had been subject to racism. The Australian example seems to be unique in the application of the racism, the assumption that adults need to be treated like children.
It may be that a significant proportion of the other two thirds have been subject to racism but either chose not to identify it as such* or were unaware that it was happening (because they were not privy to the decisions taken without their knowledge and the motivation behind it).

* - One of my friends is a Kenyan of Indian heritage who spent 20+ years in the Royal Navy from the mid-70s. He says he never experienced racism but the fact that he was called "Black Joe" by his fellow matelots because they couldn't be bothered to learn how to pronounce his name seems to contradict that
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Old 3rd October 2022, 02:03 AM   #25
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Not AFL, but football in Australia: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63114667

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Pictures on social media showed some Sydney United supporters making Nazi salutes during the match...

The chanting and booing during the pre-match Welcome to Country - a practice of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples - will be considered as part of the FA investigation.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 02:25 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not AFL, but football in Australia: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63114667
Further evidence of what I was saying in my previous post. There is a lot of racism in Australia.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 04:18 PM   #27
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I call it ethnic bigotry, and it's everywhere. Europeans became adept at sniffing out blood quanta long before Americans mastered the basics of black versus white.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 04:36 PM   #28
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If people want to discuss racism in Australia, why not start a thread? This one is about specific events (alleged) in one AFL club.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 04:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I call it ethnic bigotry, and it's everywhere. Europeans became adept at sniffing out blood quanta long before Americans mastered the basics of black versus white.
Yeah, unfortunately this is true. Australians happen to be pretty good at it, a fact that is only recently receiving full recognition.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 08:34 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If people want to discuss racism in Australia, why not start a thread? This one is about specific events (alleged) in one AFL club.
Srsly?

Racism doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists in racist societies. The general racism in Aussie is entirely relevant, just as it would be whatever country you're talking about.

And starting a new thread for similar racism in a different football code would be silly. All Aussie sports are racist.

Cricket? Doesn't seem to have come far.

Take the words of Joe Williams:

Quote:
I get asked this question all the time - does the NRL have a problem with racism, does the AFL have a problem with racism?

I believe Australia has a problem with racism. Sport is a by-product of a larger country.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/...star/9msud50we
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Old 3rd October 2022, 09:08 PM   #31
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Football (soccer)? Yep:

How the Sydney United 58 controversy highlights 'old soccer' tensions at heart of 'new football'

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The rumbles started even before the opening whistle. According to multiple fans in attendance at Parramatta Stadium, as well as those watching the television broadcast, the traditional Welcome To Country ceremony and national anthem were drowned out by whistles, songs, and alleged boos from SU58 fans.

As the game unfolded, these "anti-social" behaviours, as Football Australia labelled them afterwards, continued.

Several SU58 fans were captured on broadcast cameras performing Nazi salutes or holding banners with ultranationalist symbols, while the larger supporter group across multiple bays repeatedly sang "Za Dom – spremni!" ("For homeland – ready!"): a chant associated with the far-right Croatian Ustaše movement that collaborated with fascist regimes in Italy and Germany to commit war crimes, including genocide, during World War II.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 10:43 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Srsly?

Racism doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists in racist societies. The general racism in Aussie is entirely relevant, just as it would be whatever country you're talking about.

And starting a new thread for similar racism in a different football code would be silly. All Aussie sports are racist.

Cricket? Doesn't seem to have come far.

Take the words of Joe Williams:



https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/...star/9msud50we
This is the Sport section. In my view comments about racism in other Australian sporting codes (as you did) are fair enough. If I wanted to start a thread about racism in Australia in general I would have opened it in another section of the forum.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:00 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is the Sport section.
Uh... no it isn't.
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Old 4th October 2022, 12:39 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Uh... no it isn't.
Sorry. That’s where I intended to open it. Apologies.
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Old 4th October 2022, 08:16 PM   #35
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Considering this is in social issues, we have a real interesting development with another AFL club. Essendon on Monday appointed a new CEO, Andrew Thorburn, former CEO of the National Australian Bank (my son was one of five interviewed for the the CEO job). Anyway this guy was sacked by the NAB and the bank had to repay $1.1b to customers because of his actions.

But this wasn’t what caused him problems. He is also the Chair of a fundy Christian church which holds that being gay and having abortions are abominations. He resigned within a day when he decided to stay with the church after he was given an ultimatum. Essendon is probably the most diversity supporting club in the AFL.

So this code now has two scandals. One where abortion is encouraged, and one where it is prohibited. Hopefully both clubs will come to their senses. It seems like Essendon already has.
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Last edited by lionking; 4th October 2022 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 5th October 2022, 04:03 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not AFL, but football in Australia: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/63114667
At least one fan has already been banned for life for his actions that day. And they're still investigating for more potential bans.
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