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Tags political correctness , politically correct , woke

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Old 30th September 2022, 06:04 AM   #361
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Checkmite never said "all".
He said it stopped being one thing and is now another thing. That is a variation of "all".

Pretty soon liberals won't be able to talk. Any time the right starts using a word offensively too many people declare the word immediately lost.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:15 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
He said it stopped being one thing and is now another thing. That is a variation of "all".

Pretty soon liberals won't be able to talk. Any time the right starts using a word offensively too many people declare the word immediately lost.
A lot of liberals have already woken up - so to speak - to the idea that "Democrat" is now a dirty word.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:21 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
He said it stopped being one thing and is now another thing. That is a variation of "all".

Pretty soon liberals won't be able to talk. Any time the right starts using a word offensively too many people declare the word immediately lost.
Checkmite described what the word means when conservatives use it. Not when "all" people use it or "all" the times it is used.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:28 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Checkmite described what the word means when conservatives use it.
Why should we defer to their usage?
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:32 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Checkmite described what the word means when conservatives use it. Not when "all" people use it or "all" the times it is used.
No. His post does not say that. His post says it stopped being one thing and is now another. That new thing that it has become is that the conservative definition but he does not say "only when conservatives use it".

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
As I have pointed out several times in this thread already, the word "woke" stopped applying to any specific ideology long ago; it is now used instead as an indiscriminate shorthand for various unrelated things conservatives don't like.
This isn't an interesting level of discourse. I'll just conclude by repeating that we shouldn't be encouraging simply rolling over when conservatives define something.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 30th September 2022 at 06:53 AM. Reason: ETA: Correct pre-caffeination spelling errors.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:38 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why should we defer to their usage?
Because we aren't idiots, and refusing to understand what they mean when they say it would make us look like idiots?
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:40 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No. His post does not say that. His post says it stopped being one thing and is now another. That new thing that is has become is the the conservative definition but he does not say "only when conservatives use it".



This isn't an interesting level of discourse. I'll just conclude by repeating that we shouldn't be encouraging simply rolling over when conservatives define something.
Wait, "the conservative definition" doesn't mean "when conservatives use it" to you?

And I'll repeat what I said to d4m10n: refusing to understand what someone means when they use a word is a pretty stupid way to communicate.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:45 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A lot of liberals have already woken up - so to speak - to the idea that "Democrat" is now a dirty word.
It can be depending on the usage.

'He's a Democrat.' - Probably a description without other context making it an insult.

'The Democrat Party' - Misstating a party's name, doing which intentionally is a childish tactic that has become popular with the intellectually bankrupt hoping to make complaints about it look childish.

But you know this.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:51 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Wait, "the conservative definition" doesn't mean "when conservatives use it" to you?
No. If you mean to say that you would have to add wording that implies there is some other definition. Checkmite did the opposite using wording that said that other usages had stopped. And note Checkmite did not use the phrase "the conservative definition", I did.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
And I'll repeat what I said to d4m10n: refusing to understand what someone means when they use a word is a pretty stupid way to communicate.
Are you repeating that for me? Not sure why you think I'm refusing to understand. For the word "woke" I would think it's easy to take from context and tone which meaning a person intends.

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Old 30th September 2022, 07:21 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Because we aren't idiots, and refusing to understand what they mean when they say it would make us look like idiots?
You misunderstand my question. We know that "woke" can be used in the original sense (i.e. aware of various forms of systemic oppression) or in the revised conservative sense. Why should we defer to the new usage when we are using the term or even just discussing it? It seems much vaguer and less useful to me.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I'll just conclude by repeating that we shouldn't be encouraging simply rolling over when conservatives define something.
Precisely this. I have a hypothesis as to why progressives like to give up on their own words so quickly, but I've no idea how to test it.
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Old 30th September 2022, 07:27 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No. If you mean to say that you would have to add wording that implies there is some other definition. Checkmite did the opposite using wording that said that other usages had stopped. And note Checkmite did not use the phrase "the conservative definition", I did.
You seem to want to have your cake and eat it, too. Your introduction of "the conservative definition" demonstrates that you did understand that Checkmite was referring to how conservatives use the word.


Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Are you repeating that for me? Not sure why you think I'm refusing to understand. For the word "woke" I would think it's easy to take from context and tone which meaning a person intends.
And yet you and d4m10n are both trying to Humpty-Dumpty (When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less) away the fact that conservatives using the word have a different definition for it.
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Old 30th September 2022, 07:30 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You misunderstand my question. We know that "woke" can be used in the original sense (i.e. aware of various forms of systemic oppression) or in the revised conservative sense. Why should we defer to the new usage when we are using the term or even just discussing it? It seems much vaguer and less useful to me.
When the majority of uses of a word are the "new usage", it's still pretty stupid to insist you can redefine it back to your, and only your, preferred usage.
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Old 30th September 2022, 07:33 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
As I have pointed out several times in this thread already, the word "woke" stopped applying to any specific ideology long ago; it is now used instead as an indiscriminate shorthand for various unrelated things conservatives don't like.
Are you meaning something very specific and narrow by "ideology" here? If one were going to give some kind of definition, surely it would be something like "somebody is woke if they have metaphorically woken up to the systems of oppression and privilege articulated by the intersectional Left and see them as a dominating force behind normal human interactions and history".

Last edited by shuttlt; 30th September 2022 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 30th September 2022, 07:36 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You seem to want to have your cake and eat it, too. Your introduction of "the conservative definition" demonstrates that you did understand that Checkmite was referring to how conservatives use the word.
Right. But the rest of his words (the part with the word "stopped") imply that the conservative definition is the only one remaining.

Not going down this rabbit hole.
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Old 30th September 2022, 07:42 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It can be depending on the usage.

'He's a Democrat.' - Probably a description without other context making it an insult.

'The Democrat Party' - Misstating a party's name, doing which intentionally is a childish tactic that has become popular with the intellectually bankrupt hoping to make complaints about it look childish.

But you know this.
"You can't use 'Democrat' neutrally because that guy over there is using it to be mean."

"I had no idea. I'm just using it neutrally."

"Nope. Now that you know he's using it to be mean, you can't use it at all."

"Why not? You know I'm not using it to be mean. Why are you bringing his meanness into our conversation?"

"Look, you just can't, alright?"

"Why don't you tell him that I'm using it neutrally, so now he can't use it at all?"

"That's not how any of this works."
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Old 30th September 2022, 08:02 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I doubt it. More likely random Google result when trying to find something to support his argument.
See, this is what happens when nobody actually reads the article and simply has a melt down over the source. "Woke is now a dog whistle for Black" is literally the title of the article.
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Old 30th September 2022, 08:08 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
See, this is what happens when nobody actually reads the article and simply has a melt down over the source. "Woke is now a dog whistle for Black" is literally the title of the article.
Have you ever heard the phrase "you can't judge a book by it's cover"?
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Old 30th September 2022, 08:09 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Are you meaning something very specific and narrow by "ideology" here? If one were going to give some kind of definition, surely it would be something like "somebody is woke if they have metaphorically woken up to the systems of oppression and privilege articulated by the intersectional Left and see them as a dominating force behind normal human interactions and history".
If you want to go back to its apparent original use it would be "always be aware of systemic and institutional racism of black people by white people", it had nothing to do with any political left-right axis.
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Old 30th September 2022, 08:13 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"You can't use 'Democrat' neutrally because that guy over there is using it to be mean."

"I had no idea. I'm just using it neutrally."

"Nope. Now that you know he's using it to be mean, you can't use it at all."

"Why not? You know I'm not using it to be mean. Why are you bringing his meanness into our conversation?"

"Look, you just can't, alright?"

"Why don't you tell him that I'm using it neutrally, so now he can't use it at all?"

"That's not how any of this works."
Your fiction is most definitely not how any of this works. The whole pretense or presumption that it's just one guy 'over there' using a word as a slur, for instance. Or the whole sanctimonious 'I don't care that it's a slur, I'm using it "neutrally" so you can't get upset', as though that's a convincing argument.
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Old 30th September 2022, 08:34 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you want to go back to its apparent original use it would be "always be aware of systemic and institutional racism of black people by white people", it had nothing to do with any political left-right axis.
I'm not going back to original definitions. I'm going with the way I see it used ubiquitously on the Right now. If you want to claim that the notion of institutional racism and the rest of it that came out of the Academy isn't Left wing, then, well I don't know if you are splitting hairs, or what. I suppose one could abstract Marx's analysis of society from the Left as well.
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Old 30th September 2022, 09:23 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Right. But the rest of his words (the part with the word "stopped") imply that the conservative definition is the only one remaining for the conservative.
ftfy
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Old 30th September 2022, 10:23 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"You can't use 'Democrat Party' neutrally because that guy over there is using it to be mean and it's not their name."

"I had no idea. I'm just using it neutrally."

"Nope. Now that you know he's using it to be mean, and wrong you can't use it at all."

"Why not? You know I'm not using it to be mean. Why are you bringing his meanness into our conversation?"

"Look, you just can't, alright? It isn't a neutral use."

"Why don't you tell him that I'm using it neutrally, so now he can't use it at all?"

"That's not how any of this works."
Fixed it for you.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:27 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
When the majority of uses of a word are the "new usage", it's still pretty stupid to insist you can redefine it back to your, and only your, preferred usage.
Citation needed on the stats here, but I still don't see why progressives would want to cede the word to conservatives in the first place.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:30 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Citation needed on the stats here, but I still don't see why progressives would want to cede the word to conservatives in the first place.
Ok, you keep on using the usage you believe should be the only right one and see how far that gets you. Extra points if you're consistent (hahahaha) and apply your definition only when understanding what others mean when they use the word.


The rest of us will continue understanding that we can't exactly stop conservatives from coming up with their own definition and using the word according to their definition, so your advice is useless.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:33 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Citation needed on the stats here, but I still don't see why progressives would want to cede the word to conservatives in the first place.
Probably because it's not worth hanging on to. Whatever noble purpose it was ostensibly to serve, it got overtaken too quickly by clowning to really establish itself as a serious word for serious business. Same thing happened to "social justice warrior".

Contrariwise, "social justice" did manage to establish its seriousness. Thus conservative efforts to deprecate it have largely gone unnoticed or else fallen flat.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:34 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Have you ever heard the phrase "you can't judge a book by it's cover"?
Indeed. But that would require effort and comprehension, things anathema to many rightists.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:48 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably because it's not worth hanging on to. Whatever noble purpose it was ostensibly to serve, it got overtaken too quickly by clowning to really establish itself as a serious word for serious business. Same thing happened to "social justice warrior".
I'm a bit surprised to hear that phrase was originally coined in earnest.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Contrariwise, "social justice" did manage to establish its seriousness.
That phrase has changed a fair bit since the heyday of Charles Coughlin.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:48 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ok, you keep on using the usage you believe should be the only right one and see how far that gets you.
Don't recall ever saying or implying that words can carry only one correct meaning.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:53 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Don't recall ever saying or implying that words can carry only one correct meaning.
You don't remember your stance (as recently as an hour ago) that we shouldn't defer to the definition a conservative means when they use the word? Man, such prolific memory loss must be a burden.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:54 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Don't recall ever saying or implying that words can carry only one correct meaning.
Have you considered switching to a stipulative polythetic definition that is based on present function and will eliminate all confusions? I have some lexical references and selections from Bartlett's On Wish that may or may not help you with this.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:55 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Have you ever heard the phrase "you can't judge a book by it's cover"?
Show me where on the doll the article touched you.

Was it the scary Wapo, a news outlet that's been cited by LibsofTikTok or was it the author himself going all clickbaity with his title?

I gotta warn you, the ending will shock you.

Quote:
Today, “woke” is mostly used by the right to signify the presence of Black people (or women) where they didn’t expect them to be.
Quote:
I’m usually not a fan of franchise reboots, but maybe we should go back to the source material, where racists don’t have to twist themselves into bigoted little knots. Just say n----r with your chest.

Wait, that’s too offensive? Too explosive? Too dangerous to say in public? Whatever. Who’s the snowflake now?
In today's woke news, which has nothing to do with Black people.

San Francisco Unified School District has released a guidebook for teachers to facilitate secret child sexual transitions and to let students use the pronoun “it” at school. Yes, you read that right "it". Projected to be one of the reclaimed words like ****** we may see a similar use of restrictions on just who and who cannot use this word.

SFUSD has also suggester recommends that teachers identify parents as “caregiver 1 and caregiver 2 instead of mother and father which is strikingly similar to The Borg naming convention.

Link
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Old 30th September 2022, 12:01 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm a bit surprised to hear that phrase was originally coined in earnest.
As far as I can tell, it started out as conspiracy-theoretical jargon. Kind of an AAVE reference to the concept of the special sunglasses in They Live. You used to be asleep to the Unjust System of the World. But now that you're wide awake, you can see evidence of the System everywhere. Unlike the sleeple.
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Old 30th September 2022, 12:10 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Show me where on the doll the article touched you.

Was it the scary Wapo, a news outlet that's been cited by LibsofTikTok or was it the author himself going all clickbaity with his title?

I gotta warn you, the ending will shock you.
It wasn't shocking at all, way back when I read it right after Brainster posted it. In fact, that's how I knew both he (and now you) were missing the point this badly.


Originally Posted by Stout View Post
In today's woke news, which has nothing to do with Black people.

San Francisco Unified School District has released a guidebook for teachers to facilitate secret child sexual transitions and to let students use the pronoun “it” at school. Yes, you read that right "it". Projected to be one of the reclaimed words like ****** we may see a similar use of restrictions on just who and who cannot use this word.

SFUSD has also suggester recommends that teachers identify parents as “caregiver 1 and caregiver 2 instead of mother and father which is strikingly similar to The Borg naming convention.

Link
Oh noes, they advised teachers to let a student use a pronoun they they (the student) may prefer?
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Old 30th September 2022, 12:32 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
He said it stopped being one thing and is now another thing.
I said it stopped being about one thing. Key difference.
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Old 30th September 2022, 12:34 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Are you meaning something very specific and narrow by "ideology" here? If one were going to give some kind of definition, surely it would be something like "somebody is woke if they have metaphorically woken up to the systems of oppression and privilege articulated by the intersectional Left and see them as a dominating force behind normal human interactions and history".
But, clearly there is now a common usage that does not align with that definition, but is more along the lines of simply "liberal-ish".
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Old 30th September 2022, 12:35 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I said it stopped being about one thing. Key difference.
Hush now, RecoveringYuppy is busy telling everyone what you meant and he certainly doesn't need you chiming in to tell him he's wrong!

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Old 30th September 2022, 01:03 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
It wasn't shocking at all, way back when I read it right after Brainster posted it. In fact, that's how I knew both he (and now you) were missing the point this badly.
Prey tell, enlighten us then. What is the article really about?

Quote:
Oh noes, they advised teachers to let a student use a pronoun they they (the student) may prefer?
Excellent. Then I shall add it to my vocabulary and start using it to refer to trans people until I'm corrected by the trans in question as to their preferred pronouns. If San Fransisco says it's valid, then it's valid.
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Old 30th September 2022, 01:13 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Prey tell, enlighten us then. What is the article really about?
My goodness, I forget how badly some struggle with reading comprehension. I really didn't think the article was subtle. At all. Damon Young is clearly pointing out that those complaining about how "woke" Disney is with the little Mermaid played by a black actress are bigots and/or against equality. These three quotes pretty much sum it up:
"It was around then that the right finally caught wind of it[woke], since they are 20 to 60 years behind everything, and it became their umbrella for literally anything that even hinted at possessing a sliver of social consciousness."
"Today, “woke” is mostly used by the right to signify the presence of Black people (or women) where they didn’t expect them to be."
"I’m usually not a fan of franchise reboots, but maybe we should go back to the source material, where racists don’t have to twist themselves into bigoted little knots. Just say n----r with your chest."

Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Excellent. Then I shall add it to my vocabulary and start using it to refer to trans people until I'm corrected by the trans in question as to their preferred pronouns. If San Fransisco says it's valid, then it's valid.
Because saying they're allowed to use it if that's what the student requests is clearly a green light for you to use it no matter what their preferences are.
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Old 30th September 2022, 02:21 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You don't remember your stance (as recently as an hour ago) that we shouldn't defer to the definition a conservative means when they use the word?
I do remember that stance, it definitely doesn't imply one correct meaning.
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Old 30th September 2022, 02:22 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you considered switching to a stipulative polythetic definition that is based on present function and will eliminate all confusions?
I'll try anything once.
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