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Old 21st August 2022, 05:31 AM   #1
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DeSantisís Lost Cause

Florida Gov. DeSantis takes aim at what he sees as indoctrination in schools

In long tradition of antebellum pro-Confederate propaganda, DeSantis is attempting to rewrite the racism out of American history. This is nothing more than a rebranding of the old Daughters of the Confederacy program of indoctrination of school kids with Lost Cause mythology.

ďTakes aim Öat indoctrination in schoolsĒ
Every accusation is a confession.
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Old 21st August 2022, 06:51 AM   #2
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From the article:

Quote:
In his Focus on the Family interview, he said, "There's an element on the far left that believes parents really have no role in the education of their kids. You drop them off at school ... and they impose the ideology and worldview that they want."

He is 100% correct on the above point. And I think a lot of voters find that relatable.
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Old 21st August 2022, 06:58 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
From the article:




He is 100% correct on the above point. And I think a lot of voters find that relatable.
Thatís BS
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Old 21st August 2022, 06:58 AM   #4
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Wut, Florida has no black students?
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:09 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Wut, Florida has no black students?
None that matter.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:14 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Wut, Florida has no black students?
Probably none whose parents vote for DeSantis
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:25 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
None that matter.
Yup, gotta protect those little white snowflakes.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:27 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
From the article:




He is 100% correct on the above point. And I think a lot of voters find that relatable.
People who donít know teachers may believe that, but at least some people do know teachers and are having a hearty laugh.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:27 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Florida Gov. DeSantis takes aim at what he sees as indoctrination in schools

In long tradition of antebellum pro-Confederate propaganda, DeSantis is attempting to rewrite the racism out of American history. This is nothing more than a rebranding of the old Daughters of the Confederacy program of indoctrination of school kids with Lost Cause mythology.

“Takes aim …at indoctrination in schools”
Every accusation is a confession.
It actually adds even more Christian Nationalism in than the old Lost Cause stuff.

DeSantis, and Republicans more generally, are not just for general conservative indoctrination, but specifically anti-democracy Christian control of the US. This is why the lies (framed as 'parental choice') they want are lies about the origins of the US, it's past flaws, etc.

Allowing this kind of regressive anti-reality ideology to be taught will poison the nation faster than most other things would. The US has been successful partly because of our history of seeking progress on organizational, scientific, and engineering front. Christian nationalism hurts all of that.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:30 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
People who donít know teachers may believe that, but at least some people do know teachers and are having a hearty laugh.
The only parents who could try to have an influence on their schools and fail are those trying to impose truly moronic and evil ideas. Parents get what they want to an honestly problematic degree.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:34 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It actually adds even more Christian Nationalism in than the old Lost Cause stuff.
And much like the original Lost Cause, they aren't really in favor of parents rights any more than they were in favor of States rights
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:38 AM   #12
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One particularly chilling section of the linked article reads as follows:

Quote:
Barbara Segal, a high school government teacher in Fort Lauderdale, recently took a three-day training session on Florida's new civics standards. She says, "They were pushing an ideological agenda." In the training materials, Segal says, slides said it was a "misconception" that the Founding Fathers wanted strict separation of church and state and that they in fact wanted religion to be promoted.

Some of the most jarring material seemed to downplay the role of slavery in the country's founding, including one that stated that only 4 percent of enslaved people from Africa came to the colonies.

"Which means," Segal concluded, "we're not that bad."
This is nothing more than a naked attempt to control what people know and think. DeSantis and his cronies know full well that the more you know and the more critically you think, the less likely you are to support their corrupt and perverted agenda. So the education process itself needs to be gutted.

They will ultimately fail of course (I'm confidant that no part of today's conservatism will withstand the test of time), but they could damage a lot of people for a generation or two.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:39 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And much like the original Lost Cause, they aren't really in favor of parents rights any more than they were in favor of States rights
Well of course they are! They are in the same way in fact. The right parents get rights just like the right states get rights.

They get the power and everyone else is a lesser and deserves to be subjugated, as God intended. It isn't confusing. And it isn't subtle.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And much like the original Lost Cause, they aren't really in favor of parents rights any more than they were in favor of States rights
Of course not. They're just trying to stunt the intellectual growth of this generation of students. Otherwise, who would vote for them in the future? Certainly not anyone who's informed and can think critically.
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Old 21st August 2022, 07:49 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
From the article:

He is 100% correct on the above point. And I think a lot of voters find that relatable.
Nope. "far left" is simply a conservative media buzzword.

And the fact that voters find it relatable is frightening but only shows their ignorance and perhaps unwillingness to embrace facts cause they're afraid what they might expose about the world.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:03 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
One particularly chilling section of the linked article reads as follows:



This is nothing more than a naked attempt to control what people know and think. DeSantis and his cronies know full well that the more you know and the more critically you think, the less likely you are to support their corrupt and perverted agenda. So the education process itself needs to be gutted.

They will ultimately fail of course (I'm confidant that no part of today's conservatism will withstand the test of time), but they could damage a lot of people for a generation or two.
The 4% claim is either true or it is false. If it's true then it is something kids should learn, if it's false it should not be taught. And I do love that you can almost hear the sadness in the teacher's voice as she says: "Which means," Segal concluded, "we're not that bad."

I can imagine how disturbing it must be to a teacher to have to conclude that America is not that bad.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The 4% claim is either true or it is false. If it's true then it is something kids should learn, if it's false it should not be taught. And I do love that you can almost hear the sadness in the teacher's voice as she says: "Which means," Segal concluded, "we're not that bad."

I can imagine how disturbing it must be to a teacher to have to conclude that America is not that bad.
Some people consider it bad without qualification to keep any percentage of an enslaved population.

Apparently, none of those people are conservatives.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The 4% claim is either true or it is false. If it's true then it is something kids should learn, if it's false it should not be taught. And I do love that you can almost hear the sadness in the teacher's voice as she says: "Which means," Segal concluded, "we're not that bad."

I can imagine how disturbing it must be to a teacher to have to conclude that America is not that bad.
*sigh* The Haitian Revolution by imported slaves lead the American slavers to conclude the North Atlantic Slave Trade had to end in the US, but that also laws should be passed that any child born to a slave mother was a slave regardless of the status of the father.

Which happened. This allowed slavers to gain slaves not from stealing more black people from Africa. However, this provided an economic incentive to rape their slaves. Which happened. And eventually our nation fought the bloodiest war in our history because the slavers wanted to keep their slaves.

'We're not that bad' in regards to slavery is ahistoric nonsense but it does help the deplorables feel less bad about it.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:25 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
From the article:

He is 100% correct on the above point. And I think a lot of voters find that relatable.
Can I play this game, too?

"There's an element within the lesbian community who think that all men should be executed except for a few breeding slaves maintained for in vitro fertilization."

Isn't that clever? See, it points to a rarified extreme as an example of what the vast majority believe. Now, in the minds of the sheep who listen to the repulsive James Dobson's Focus on the Family, anyone who calls DeSantis out on his racist revisionist ******** is telling them they can't have a role in the education of their kids. It isn't that DeSantis is pushing racist lies about the history of this country that are on par with holocaust denial - it's that "evul librools" are after their kids.

I know, I know... It seems like an untenable strategy because it would require a large portion of the population to be ignorant simpletons who have been indoctrinated since childhood to think whatever their culture's authority figures tell them to think. But what if that were the case? What if a narcissistic ****-bag like DeSantis really could manipulate stupid people into being terrified of a nonexistent threat that only he can save them from?
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Can I play this game, too?

"There's an element within the lesbian community who think that all men should be executed except for a few breeding slaves maintained for in vitro fertilization."

Isn't that clever? See, it points to a rarified extreme as an example of what the vast majority believe.

That analogy does not hold up. Even if we look just at the opinions on this forum, the vast majority of liberals are perfectly happy to see liberal ideals and beliefs pressed upon children...even as freakish as some of those ideals are.

It isn't some far outlier, clearly.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It actually adds even more Christian Nationalism in than the old Lost Cause stuff.

DeSantis, and Republicans more generally, are not just for general conservative indoctrination, but specifically anti-democracy Christian control of the US. This is why the lies (framed as 'parental choice') they want are lies about the origins of the US, it's past flaws, etc.

Allowing this kind of regressive anti-reality ideology to be taught will poison the nation faster than most other things would. The US has been successful partly because of our history of seeking progress on organizational, scientific, and engineering front. Christian nationalism hurts all of that.
Sadly, I know you're right, because when I was a kid my mother listened to Focus on the Family a lot.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:41 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That analogy does not hold up. Even if we look just at the opinions on this forum, the vast majority of liberals are perfectly happy to see liberal ideals and beliefs pressed upon children...even as freakish as some of those ideals are.

It isn't some far outlier, clearly.

These are the kind of non-freakish ideals conservatives have:
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Let these kids carry their rape babies; it's no skin off my backside. Incest? Well, at least there won't be a problem deciding who's side of the family the baby looks like.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:41 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That analogy does not hold up. Even if we look just at the opinions on this forum, the vast majority of liberals are perfectly happy to see liberal ideals and beliefs pressed upon children...even as freakish as some of those ideals are.
The difference is that what DeSantis considers liberal ideals and beliefs are just actual evidence based science and history.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:48 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That analogy does not hold up. Even if we look just at the opinions on this forum, the vast majority of liberals are perfectly happy to see liberal ideals and beliefs pressed upon children...even as freakish as some of those ideals are.

It isn't some far outlier, clearly.
********. Your argument is ********.

DeSantis is pushing a racist, religious oligarchy that attempts to rewrite history so that they can paint Christian Nationalism as the rightful form of government of the U.S.

If wanting public schools to teach the realities of history is an example of "liberal ideals and beliefs" then I'm truly sorry that you've been indoctrinated yourself to the point that you prefer a comforting fiction over truth.
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Old 21st August 2022, 08:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
********. Your argument is ********.

DeSantis is pushing a racist, religious oligarchy that attempts to rewrite history so that they can paint Christian Nationalism as the rightful form of government of the U.S.

If wanting public schools to teach the realities of history is an example of "liberal ideals and beliefs" then I'm truly sorry that you've been indoctrinated yourself to the point that you prefer a comforting fiction over truth.

I think you need to look at the larger picture of liberal influence and its affects on educational curricula (particularly on social matters), which is what this really comes down to. The pushback is well-deserved and overdo, even if not ideally presented.

In a sense, liberals have created this scenario by their incessant need to push their beliefs and standards as policy of law, even down to programming our children.
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Old 21st August 2022, 09:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I think you need to look at the larger picture of liberal influence and its affects on educational curricula (particularly on social matters), which is what this really comes down to. The pushback is well-deserved and overdo, even if not ideally presented.

In a sense, liberals have created this scenario by their incessant need to push their beliefs and standards as policy of law, even down to programming our children.
How about you give us a few specific examples of "liberalism" in public schools? Is biological science "liberal"? Is teaching about the effects of westward expansion on native populations "liberal"? How about teaching that the American Civil War really was all about slavery? Is teaching about Jim Crow "pushing liberalism"?

If DeSantis succeeds in pushing his ******** educational plan on Florida's public schools, he'll be pushing his beliefs (assuming his actions are based on actual personal belief and not merely a cynical tool for manipulating his ignorant base) and programming Florida's children - with ******* ********.
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Old 21st August 2022, 09:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
*sigh* The Haitian Revolution by imported slaves lead the American slavers to conclude the North Atlantic Slave Trade had to end in the US, but that also laws should be passed that any child born to a slave mother was a slave regardless of the status of the father.

Which happened. This allowed slavers to gain slaves not from stealing more black people from Africa. However, this provided an economic incentive to rape their slaves. Which happened. And eventually our nation fought the bloodiest war in our history because the slavers wanted to keep their slaves.

'We're not that bad' in regards to slavery is ahistoric nonsense but it does help the deplorables feel less bad about it.
Tell it to that teacher, it's her quote. I don't have any hesitation saying that slavery was bad and the people who did it were bad. My response to that teacher though, is what is this "we" BS? I mean, was she involved personally in the slave trade? I can assure you that I was not (and not my ancestors either as none of them were in the USA prior to 1900). So a bunch of people who lived in this country ages before my ancestors were bad people--not all of them of course, but a large number of them. And?
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Old 21st August 2022, 10:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Tell it to that teacher, it's her quote. I don't have any hesitation saying that slavery was bad and the people who did it were bad. My response to that teacher though, is what is this "we" BS? I mean, was she involved personally in the slave trade? I can assure you that I was not (and not my ancestors either as none of them were in the USA prior to 1900). So a bunch of people who lived in this country ages before my ancestors were bad people--not all of them of course, but a large number of them. And?
You should probably take this rather healthy viewpoint of history and share it with your fellow idealogues.

For some inexplicable reason, a lot of conservatives get their feelings hurt when they are told that people who aren't them were racist and owned slaves.
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Old 21st August 2022, 10:12 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
One particularly chilling section of the linked article reads as follows:



This is nothing more than a naked attempt to control what people know and think. DeSantis and his cronies know full well that the more you know and the more critically you think, the less likely you are to support their corrupt and perverted agenda. So the education process itself needs to be gutted.

They will ultimately fail of course (I'm confidant that no part of today's conservatism will withstand the test of time), but they could damage a lot of people for a generation or two.
And those in those next two generations who are damaged can damage a lot more people going forward. On the other hand, it may not matter; the way things are going, mankind might not have more than another generation or two.
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Old 21st August 2022, 10:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The 4% claim is either true or it is false. If it's true then it is something kids should learn, if it's false it should not be taught. And I do love that you can almost hear the sadness in the teacher's voice as she says: "Which means," Segal concluded, "we're not that bad."

I can imagine how disturbing it must be to a teacher to have to conclude that America is not that bad.
Leaving aside the argument that ANY slavery is bad...

The 4% claim can be both true, AND it should also not be taught, if the numbers are taken out of context.

Even if only 4% of African slaves were brought to the US it says nothing about people born into slavery in the US nor does it say anything about the relative size of the non-slave population. (At the time importation of slaves was legal the US had a much smaller population). Without those other numbers, saying "only 4% of slaves came to the US is misleading.

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Old 21st August 2022, 10:37 AM   #31
sackett
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Back in the 1950s,* almost every American politician called himself a liberal, some more convincingly than others. That was because the word still carried its original connotations of generosity, humaneness, and love of liberty -- as it still does, except in the mouths of today's rightists. They've diligently perverted "liberal" into a pejorative, empty of any more meaning than "goddamned." If you try to tell them about the word 'illiberal" and what it means -- miserly, cruel, and coercive -- you'll confuse them momentarily, and then they'll start bellowing irrelevant assertions, slogans really, and at once regain their confidence. Ignorance really is strength.

Strength as they understand it.

* Yes, Warp, I really do go back that far, and even as a teenager I was reading as widely as practible out there in the sticks, and listening to other radio programs besides Gabriel Heatter. The sticks? Yes, Wyoming, that land of cave-dwelling Republicanists, where in spite of the prevailing dull hatred of libberulz, it was possible to pick up the beginnings of an education. Aren't ya sorry?
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Old 21st August 2022, 10:56 AM   #32
Warp12
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Back in the 1950s,* almost every American politician called himself a liberal, some more convincingly than others. That was because the word still carried its original connotations of generosity, humaneness, and love of liberty -- as it still does, except in the mouths of today's rightists.

...

* Yes, Warp, I really do go back that far, and even as a teenager I was reading as widely as practible out there in the sticks, and listening to other radio programs besides Gabriel Heatter. The sticks? Yes, Wyoming, that land of cave-dwelling Republicanists, where in spite of the prevailing dull hatred of libberulz, it was possible to pick up the beginnings of an education. Aren't ya sorry?

The highlighted/bolded is ridiculously comical. No offense.
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Old 21st August 2022, 12:32 PM   #33
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Teaching about the realities of the past is now "whining" and "toxicity."

Incredible.

If DeSantis is your idea of a "grounded conservative" I ******* hope I never see your version of "ungrounded."
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Old 21st August 2022, 01:25 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
From the article:
Quote:
Quote:
In his Focus on the Family interview, he said, "There's an element on the far left that believes parents really have no role in the education of their kids. You drop them off at school ... and they impose the ideology and worldview that they want."
He is 100% correct on the above point. And I think a lot of voters find that relatable.

Really? What evidence is there of that? When I was teaching, I certainly never ran across such a view from any parent. I often found that some parents took little interest in their child's education, but that was just bad parenting, not due to any 'far left' idea that they shouldn't have a say in their children's education.

I do have to laugh when he claims that teachers "impose the ideology and worldview that they want" on children when DeSantis and the right wing are in the process of doing exactly that themselves with their "don't discuss this or that or this or that" and stripping books from school libraries that don't support their ideological beliefs.

A lot of voters who find that relatable are just as ignorant and wrong as DeSantis.
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Old 21st August 2022, 01:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I think you need to look at the larger picture of liberal influence and its affects on educational curricula (particularly on social matters), which is what this really comes down to. The pushback is well-deserved and overdo, even if not ideally presented.

In a sense, liberals have created this scenario by their incessant need to push their beliefs and standards as policy of law, even down to programming our children.
You have well and truly drunk the Kool Aid.

Exactly what "beliefs and standards" have "liberals" "pushed onto" and "programmed" school children with?

Do you think all State Boards of Education and local school boards, who determine the curriculum, are all controlled by 'leftists'? I got news for you: curriculum development is determined by the input of many people... educational professionals that include teachers from all political and religious beliefs. It is reviewed and changed on a regular basis with the aim of always improving it.

What you, DeSantis and his ilk are really upset about is not that children are being 'indoctrinated' or 'programmed' but that they aren't being 'indoctrinated' and 'programmed' in YOUR right wing ideologies.

The hypocrisy of the right knows no bounds.
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Old 21st August 2022, 02:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Teaching about the realities of the past is now "whining" and "toxicity."

Incredible.

If DeSantis is your idea of a "grounded conservative" I ******* hope I never see your version of "ungrounded."
Here's Ron DeSantis "grounded conservative" giving anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists a platform at one of his events:
Quote:
Darris Friend, a Gainesville employee who rejects his city’s vaccine rules, was a featured speaker at the rally in Newberry, Florida, organized by DeSantis to criticize mandates. Friend delivered the remarks behind a podium with the official state seal, directly next to DeSantis. The governor watched Friend as he spoke, but after the conspiracy-theory comment DeSantis made no effort to correct it.

Shocking that one of our forum anti-vaxxers would think that a Republican governor who platforms anti-vaxxers is a "grounded conservative".

But this is just fine because millions of voters agree with anti-science conspiracy theories.

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Old 21st August 2022, 02:06 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Here's Ron DeSantis "grounded conservative" giving anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists a platform at one of his events:



Shocking that one of our forum anti-vaxxers would think that a Republican governor who platforms anti-vaxxers is a "ground conservative".

But this is just fine because millions of voters agree with anti-science conspiracy theories.
Millions of people supported Hitler and Mussolini. Millions support Putin. Millions support Trump. Millions of people can be very, very stupid.
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Old 21st August 2022, 02:11 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Millions of people supported Hitler and Mussolini. Millions support Putin. Millions support Trump. Millions of people can be very, very stupid.
When you're pushing an abhorrent world view, it's important to remind everyone that other people agree with you so that you don't have to be the only amoral idiot.
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Old 21st August 2022, 02:24 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
When you're pushing an abhorrent world view, it's important to remind everyone that other people agree with you so that you don't have to be the only amoral idiot.
The world is certainly not lacking in amoral idiots. Some often come together in huge groups to support and feed off each other's idiocy: the Black Shirt rallies, Nuremberg rallies, Luzhniki Stadium rally, and Trump rallies come to mind.
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Old 21st August 2022, 02:49 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
One particularly chilling section of the linked article reads as follows:

This is nothing more than a naked attempt to control what people know and think. DeSantis and his cronies know full well that the more you know and the more critically you think, the less likely you are to support their corrupt and perverted agenda. So the education process itself needs to be gutted.

They will ultimately fail of course (I'm confidant that no part of today's conservatism will withstand the test of time), but they could damage a lot of people for a generation or two.
I wonder if these new teaching standards will include anything about how well treated and happy the slaves were, with illustrations of smiling slaves dancing and singing around their barracks. I bet they could incorporate some of Maurice Bessinger's pamphlets into their curriculum.
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