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Old 14th September 2022, 02:03 PM   #1
jimbob
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Sex trafficking victim to pay family of rapist she killed in self defence

Related

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-family-150000

Quote:
Appeal raises $150,000 for girl ordered to pay family of accused rapist she killed
Judge had ‘no other option’ but to impose restitution on human trafficking victim given probation with risk of 20 years’ prison
Quote:
Lewis was 15 when she stabbed Brooks more than 30 times in a Des Moines apartment. Officials have said Lewis was a runaway seeking to escape an abusive life with her adopted mother and was sleeping in the hallways of an apartment building when a 28-year-old man took her in before trafficking her to other men for sex.

Lewis said one of those men was Brooks, who raped her multiple times in the weeks before his death. She recounted being forced at knifepoint by the 28-year-old man to go with Brooks to his apartment for sex. She told officials that after Brooks raped her yet again, she grabbed a knife from a bedside table and stabbed him in a fit of rage.
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Old 14th September 2022, 02:41 PM   #2
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Related

Remotely..

Probably deserves it's own thread if anyone is interested..
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Old 14th September 2022, 02:45 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Related

Remotely..

Probably deserves it's own thread if anyone is interested..
You're right - moved
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Old 14th September 2022, 05:46 PM   #4
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WTF? The court had no choice? The prosecutor did. A fifteen year old sex trafficking victim, violently held against her will by the prosecutor's own admission, got charged with manslaughter? Really? That was the best choice the prosecutor could make?

If she had used a gun maybe she would have been given the automatic benefit of the doubt. Or not.
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Old 14th September 2022, 08:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Iowa does have an affirmative defense law that gives some leeway to victims of crime if they commit a violation “under compulsion by another’s threat of serious injury, provided that the defendant reasonably believed that such injury was imminent”.

Prosecutors argued that Lewis waived that affirmative defense when she pleaded guilty to manslaughter and willful injury.

Sounds like she either needed a better defense attorney, or there is more to the story than is contained in the article. From the sounds of the article, she stabbed him 30+ times when he was asleep. Meaning, she could have walked out the door and contacted Police instead?
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Old 14th September 2022, 09:22 PM   #6
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I was going to say that it wouldn't be long before some of the usual suspects would be along soon to doubt the raped woman's story, and to defend the rapist.

Too late!
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Old 14th September 2022, 10:53 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Picture that there is more to the story than the article says..
There is no evidence of this "more to the story" that you speak of.

If there is (which I doubt) and you find it, then you can bring it to us. In the mean time, until you can "put up"...., well, you know what you can do.
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Old 14th September 2022, 11:09 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Picture that there is more to the story than the article says.

As far as the claims of rape, etc..it doesn't sound like the prosecution needed to dispute it. She plead to charges for a very compelling reason. Probably including that forensics supported he was asleep when she stabbed him 30+ times.

But, as I say...if her case is so compelling, and the evidence on her side...she needs a new attorney. Because I imagine it is hard to justify stabbing someone 30+ times while they are asleep, when there is an open door in front of you.

She was raped, she was a child, she was traumatised.

She would have been terrified of him. It was proportionate self-defence
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Old 15th September 2022, 12:47 AM   #9
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She should have gone to trial with the son-of-a-bitch had it coming defense.
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Old 15th September 2022, 12:51 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Picture that there is more to the story than the article says.

As far as the claims of rape, etc..it doesn't sound like the prosecution needed to dispute it. She plead to charges for a very compelling reason. Probably including that forensics supported he was asleep when she stabbed him 30+ times.

But, as I say...if her case is so compelling, and the evidence on her side...she needs a new attorney. Because I imagine it is hard to justify stabbing someone 30+ times while they are asleep, when there is an open door in front of you.
Ah, the INCEL defense, women shouldn't resist their rapist. I've heard it well spoken of.
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Old 15th September 2022, 01:14 AM   #11
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Killing her rapist would have been her father's job.
That, or make her rapist marry her.
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Old 15th September 2022, 01:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There is no evidence of this "more to the story" that you speak of.

If there is (which I doubt) and you find it, then you can bring it to us. In the mean time, until you can "put up"...., well, you know what you can do.

The only concrete evidence presented in the article is that she murdered someone by stabbing them 30+ times. And that she pled guilty to the charges.

"If you think there is more evidence than presented in an online article, put it up!". Hilarious, but expected.

If anyone needed to "put up", clearly it was her. Obviously she did not have a compelling case for self-defense. The fact that she is walking the streets after murdering someone (presumably in their sleep), shows the leniency of the court.
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Old 15th September 2022, 01:42 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
She was raped, she was a child, she was traumatised.

She would have been terrified of him. It was proportionate self-defence

Tell it to the court, jimbob.

Amazing that with such a compelling argument and supporting evidence as you have presented, she pled guilty. And I am pretty sure she did not represent herself.
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Old 15th September 2022, 02:43 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
"If you think there is more evidence than presented in an online article, put it up!".
You're the one making claims chum!
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Old 15th September 2022, 02:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Tell it to the court, jimbob.

Amazing that with such a compelling argument and supporting evidence as you have presented, she pled guilty. And I am pretty sure she did not represent herself.
She was traumatised and a child. Vulnerable. She was not in a position to consent to plea bargain.

She probably preferred to plead guilty to manslaughter than risk a conviction for murder.
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Old 15th September 2022, 03:05 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
She was traumatised and a child. Vulnerable. She was not in a position to consent to plea bargain.

She probably preferred to plead guilty to manslaughter than risk a conviction for murder.

And why do you think she might have risked a conviction for murder? I mean, with all of the great evidence supporting her "self defense" story and all, and at age 15? Clearly most here see her "innocence" as obvious and compelling.

I just wonder, why accept such a plea, when there is a good chance she will be behind bars again? Perhaps there is more to the case than what you read online?

Perhaps the only irrefutable evidence they have is a corpse with 30+ stab wounds in it.
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Old 15th September 2022, 05:54 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
She was raped, she was a child, she was traumatised.

She would have been terrified of him. It was proportionate self-defence
I find the killing to be morally justified, but legally speaking there's a serious problem with it. The law never justifies killing as revenge, and killing in self defense requires that the threat be immediate. A future threat, even a certain one, does not suffice for a claim of self defense. If he was asleep when she killed him, then that immediacy isn't satisfied. I don't expect a traumatized child to be able to think through all these factors, which is part of the reason I think it's morally justified, but as far as I can tell, the law as written doesn't make exceptions for this. And codifying such exceptions may open the door to serious problems in other cases. Any changes to the law to prevent such an outcome must be very carefully constructed to avoid that, and that's no trivial task. Hard cases make bad law, as the saying goes. The outcome sucks in this particular instance, but it looks like the process was followed correctly.
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:21 AM   #18
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I doubt anyone is on the side of the rapist here. Going by the article, she stabbed someone 30 times whilst they were sleeping. If she had an opportunity to escape and instead chose to murder someone, I can understand why the court gave the verdict they did.

I totally get her releasing the beast on the guy, I truly do. But if this was a revenge killing, again, I understand the verdict.
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I doubt anyone is on the side of the rapist here. Going by the article, she stabbed someone 30 times whilst they were sleeping. If she had an opportunity to escape and instead chose to murder someone, I can understand why the court gave the verdict they did.

I totally get her releasing the beast on the guy, I truly do. But if this was a revenge killing, again, I understand the verdict.
I disagree. She had been repeatedly raped , she was a child, she had an opportunity to ensure she escaped her tormentor.

In that situation, she was just making sure that he was unable to chase or catch her.

She could have tried to slip away but what if he woke up.

Which is why I think self defence is justified.

If a kidnap victim killed her captor when he was sleeping rather than just try to slip away without waking him, I wouldn't think that would be considered problematic, but this is a very similar situation.

.
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:32 AM   #20
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Holup: the OP is about the GFM or whatever to pay her bill. Its not about the court case or events of the crime, of which there is only a brief synopsis. Why are we challenging the verdict itself, without any reporting?
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:33 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I doubt anyone is on the side of the rapist here.
Of course not. I said so. I specifically said "Totally not on the rapist side, just with a thousand reasons why this was the way this should have worked out and nothing needs to be fixed."
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:38 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
She could have tried to slip away but what if he woke up.
This is pretty much where I'm at with it. Sure Warp12 can say, "There was an open door", but if she started to walk through it and he woke up it wouldn't only slam shut, it would probably slam shut with her head in it. This guy was obviously trash. He was knowingly raping a 15 year old girl against her will and at knife point. It's not a stretch to think that he would use that knife on her should he find her trying to escape.

Also, this wasn't even the guy that originally kidnapped her. That guy marched her down to this guys' apartment at knife point so he could rape her. This girl had run away from an abusive adoptive mother, found in a hallway by the sex trafficker and then whored to tenants in the same building. Why would this child think she could get away? Did she have the mental capacity to understand how\when to escape and who to contact? Every person she's turned to appears to have abused her.

I partially agree with Zigg. I think morally this is justified, and it runs afoul of the law, but I also think the prosecutors involved could have given her other options.

This girl couldn't afford an attorney and if anyone thinks that a court-appointed attorney is anything other than a yes-man for the prosecution is nuts. Every public defender pushes their clients to take a plea, no matter the charges or situation. I know this both from experience and seeing it repeatedly in the court system.
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:41 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Holup: the OP is about the GFM or whatever to pay her bill. Its not about the court case or events of the crime, of which there is only a brief synopsis. Why are we challenging the verdict itself, without any reporting?
There was no "verdict". She took a plea:

Quote:
Last year, Lewis pleaded to involuntary manslaughter and willful injury, both of which were punishable by up to 10 years in prison. However, Polk County District Judge David Porter deferred those prison sentences on Tuesday, meaning Lewis could serve 20 years if she violates her probation.
This is textbook terrible public defending. The public defender doesn't care. They don't get paid to care. They get paid to close cases.

The fact she plead guilty is what did her in. It's Iowa law that she had to pay this money to the "victim" because of her plea.

ETA: I think this is the dumbest **** in the entire case:

Quote:
Prosecutors took issue with Lewis labeling herself as a survivor, claiming she failed to take responsibility for Brooks' death and left his children without a father.
Who cares if his kids are without a father? Seriously, he's trash. They're better off. When they grow up and learn that their father was a child raping piece of **** I'm sure they won't be too bothered by it either.
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:45 AM   #24
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For what it is worth, I expect that this young woman will eventually be legally exonerated from killing her rapist.

After all, right off-hand I can think of one case that occurred about 45 years ago where a woman killed her horribly abusive husband while he was sleeping, and eventually, she was found 'not guilty' of murder.
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Old 15th September 2022, 06:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
... Why would this child think she could get away? Did she have the mental capacity to understand how\when to escape and who to contact? Every person she's turned to appears to have abused her.
Indeed. If she had thought of trying to run to the police, who do you suppose she imagined they would hand her back to?
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:00 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And the exact people who I figured where gonna be "Totally not on the side of raping sex trafficker, don't you dare say I'm their side but here's all the reasons why this is the right thing to have happened..." are the people who are exactly doing that.
It's not the right thing to have happened. But we are well past the point where the right thing to happen is possible. I'm saying that I think the law was followed.

Self defense requires threats be immediate. You have not argued that this shouldn't be the case. You have not argued that people should be permitted to use deadly force against non-immediate threats. You have not argued that the threat WAS immediate. Given that, on what basis do you want an acquittal?

I'm a very big fan of the right of self defense, but I also recognize that this right must be limited to prevent abuses. One of those rather standard limits is immediacy of threats. This is a very important safeguard. In this specific case, that safeguard doesn't produce the result we would like, but I'm not willing to get rid of it.

Other remedies are available for such one-off cases. I particular, this girl will not have to serve any prison time, and fundraising appears to have covered the fine imposed on her. So she is escaping most of the consequences that would ordinarily accompany a murder or manslaughter charge, and I think that's a good thing in this case. But I'm not prepared to let my sympathy for her lead to dismantling a critical limitation on the right of self defense, because I think that limitation is critical not only to preventing abuse of that right, but also protecting the right itself from coming under threat.
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:17 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not the right thing to have happened. But we are well past the point where the right thing to happen is possible. I'm saying that I think the law was followed.

Self defense requires threats be immediate. You have not argued that this shouldn't be the case. You have not argued that people should be permitted to use deadly force against non-immediate threats. You have not argued that the threat WAS immediate. Given that, on what basis do you want an acquittal?

I'm a very big fan of the right of self defense, but I also recognize that this right must be limited to prevent abuses. One of those rather standard limits is immediacy of threats. This is a very important safeguard. In this specific case, that safeguard doesn't produce the result we would like, but I'm not willing to get
rid of it.

Other remedies are available for such one-off cases. I particular, this girl will not have to serve any prison time, and fundraising appears to have covered the fine imposed on her. So she is escaping most of the consequences that would ordinarily accompany a murder or manslaughter charge, and I think that's a good thing in this case. But I'm not prepared to let my sympathy for her lead to dismantling a critical limitation on the right of self defense, because I think that limitation is critical not only to preventing abuse of that right, but also protecting the right itself from coming under threat.
Would a kidnap victim be required to try to slip away without waking her kidnapper if he fell asleep and she had access to a knife?

That was the situation.

I would argue that killing him when he was asleep was a reasonable way to escape. The least risky way for her.
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:20 AM   #28
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Attorney KellyMarie Meek of the Iowa Coalition Against Sexual Assault agrees that the judge had no discretion in the case, it's letter of the law.

I guess what most of us brace against is that this does not quite fit the letter of the law for self defense, so copping to manslaughter and voluntary injury was her best strategic move. The judge did suspend a 20 year sentence, which speaks to the court's empathy for the rape victim.

https://abc7chicago.com/pieper-lewis...tion/12230839/

So is this a case of incomplete self defense provisions.in Iowa law, or blanket wording in the compensation policy? I think more the former. A trafficked and raped teen runaway should be considered too traumatized to meet the reasonable person standard.
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:23 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Would a kidnap victim be required to try to slip away without waking her kidnapper if he fell asleep and she had access to a knife?

That was the situation.

I would argue that killing him when he was asleep was a reasonable way to escape. The least risky way for her.

I would argue that no evidence of a kidnapping has been produced.
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:25 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Would a kidnap victim be required to try to slip away without waking her kidnapper if he fell asleep and she had access to a knife?

That was the situation.

I would argue that killing him when he was asleep was a reasonable way to escape. The least risky way for her.
Morally I think it's appropriate. Given the outcome, I suspect she doesn't regret her choice. But I don't see an exception made within the law, and I don't see a legal argument presented here that there is such an exception. I'm not sure how to tailor a sufficiently narrow exception either. Perhaps you have some ideas.
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:47 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Morally I think it's appropriate. Given the outcome, I suspect she doesn't regret her choice. But I don't see an exception made within the law, and I don't see a legal argument presented here that there is such an exception. I'm not sure how to tailor a sufficiently narrow exception either. Perhaps you have some ideas.
Self defence being when a reasonable person in such a situation would consider it a proportionate response to protect themself or others?


It was proportionate, she couldn't escape when he was awake, and he would have continued to rape her or possibly worse in future.

I don't see why immediacy is needed - reasonableness is more appropriate.
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Old 15th September 2022, 07:59 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Self defence being when a reasonable person in such a situation would consider it a proportionate response to protect themself or others?
No. There are multiple elements required for a legal claim of self defense, and proportionality is only one component. Immediacy is another. There are others as well (for example, you can't have started the fight, in many cases you must try to avoid the threat if possible) which aren't really at issue in this case but can be critical in other cases. If any of the needed components is missing, the defense claim fails. So it's not enough that the response be proportionate.
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Old 15th September 2022, 08:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. There are multiple elements required for a legal claim of self defense, and proportionality is only one component. Immediacy is another. There are others as well (for example, you can't have started the fight, in many cases you must try to avoid the threat if possible) which aren't really at issue in this case but can be critical in other cases. If any of the needed components is missing, the defense claim fails. So it's not enough that the response be proportionate.
I'm not saying what the law is, I'm saying what it should be.

Immediacy is a problem with domestic violence as well.
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Old 15th September 2022, 08:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Attorney KellyMarie Meek of the Iowa Coalition Against Sexual Assault agrees that the judge had no discretion in the case, it's letter of the law.

I guess what most of us brace against is that this does not quite fit the letter of the law for self defense, so copping to manslaughter and voluntary injury was her best strategic move. The judge did suspend a 20 year sentence, which speaks to the court's empathy for the rape victim.

https://abc7chicago.com/pieper-lewis...tion/12230839/

So is this a case of incomplete self defense provisions.in Iowa law, or blanket wording in the compensation policy? I think more the former. A trafficked and raped teen runaway should be considered too traumatized to meet the reasonable person standard.
It appears to be what the law requires, even if it does seem unjust. I'd guess that she puts up a Go Fund Me page and gets the $150K plus in a few hours.
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Old 15th September 2022, 08:27 AM   #35
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If only we were brave enough to consider the possibility that the guy ******* an underage girl was the real victim.
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Old 15th September 2022, 08:29 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. There are multiple elements required for a legal claim of self defense, and proportionality is only one component. Immediacy is another. There are others as well (for example, you can't have started the fight, in many cases you must try to avoid the threat if possible) which aren't really at issue in this case but can be critical in other cases. If any of the needed components is missing, the defense claim fails. So it's not enough that the response be proportionate.
Personally I think this was a misuse of saying "there was no immediate threat". I say this for a few reasons. The first is that being asleep isn't permanent. He could easily wake up. Secondly, he's sleeping next to a knife. A knife he used to force her into rape.

I don't get why "being asleep" means he's not an immediate threat. It's just...ridiculous. I think THAT is where the change needs to happen. I am not saying that you're wrong in that this girl was prosecuted following the law. I'm saying that there needs to be a change that allows for situations like this and in many states there are. The article specifically states that Iowa just isn't one of the states that has those protections for trafficked\kidnapped victims. It's not undoable, plenty of states allow for situations like this. Iowa just sucks.
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Old 15th September 2022, 08:33 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It appears to be what the law requires, even if it does seem unjust. I'd guess that she puts up a Go Fund Me page and gets the $150K plus in a few hours.
The general public shouldn't have to foot the bill for antiquated laws. That you find that to be fine is concerning.

The fact is she shouldn't have had to go through the ordeal at all, and having charitable people help her with an unjust ruling is the actual issue here. They further traumatized a victim. It's ****** up and that people seem so "ho-hum" about it is seriously, seriously worrisome. I mean, not a lot people, the normal people around here are having the normal reactions.
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Old 15th September 2022, 08:56 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It appears to be what the law requires, even if it does seem unjust. I'd guess that she puts up a Go Fund Me page and gets the $150K plus in a few hours.
She already did, and it's up to $368,000+.
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Old 15th September 2022, 09:02 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Personally I think this was a misuse of saying "there was no immediate threat". I say this for a few reasons. The first is that being asleep isn't permanent. He could easily wake up. Secondly, he's sleeping next to a knife. A knife he used to force her into rape.

I don't get why "being asleep" means he's not an immediate threat. It's just...ridiculous. I think THAT is where the change needs to happen. I am not saying that you're wrong in that this girl was prosecuted following the law. I'm saying that there needs to be a change that allows for situations like this and in many states there are. The article specifically states that Iowa just isn't one of the states that has those protections for trafficked\kidnapped victims. It's not undoable, plenty of states allow for situations like this. Iowa just sucks.
I agree. This guy was likely much larger and stronger than she was. Attacking him in his sleep may have been her only chance. As for the number of times she stabbed him, I also think that was actually reasonable. If you're going to defend yourself from someone who's threatened to kill you, and who has a knife at his side, you'd better make sure you don't just hurt him enough to make him go through with his threat.

Years ago I watched a true crime show that told about a violent criminal who'd already just killed someone and forced an elderly man and his wife to drive him somewhere at gunpoint. The elderly man had a small .22 or .25 handgun in the driver's side door pocket. When they finally stopped, the criminal ordered them out and came around to the driver's side. As he got out, the elderly man took his own gun out, and as their abductor came toward him, shot him in the chest. He must have thought that would immediately drop this guy, but he just looked shocked for a moment, then raised his own gun and pulled the trigger. Luckily his gun was jammed and wouldn't fire, so he hit the elderly man in the head with it, knocking him to the ground, and ran away, where he eventually collapsed from his wound and was apprehended by police. That man's mistake was to not empty that little pea shooter into that guy.

If that young girl had tried to sneak out, she might not have made it, and if she'd just stabbed him once or twice, he might have killed her, even if he then bled out.

We can't expect a 15 year old girl to be able to think rationally and responsibly when she's been raped by a stranger. And as for a guy who raped a kid at knife point, he got what he deserved as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 15th September 2022, 09:04 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The general public shouldn't have to foot the bill for antiquated laws. That you find that to be fine is concerning.

The fact is she shouldn't have had to go through the ordeal at all, and having charitable people help her with an unjust ruling is the actual issue here. They further traumatized a victim. It's ****** up and that people seem so "ho-hum" about it is seriously, seriously worrisome. I mean, not a lot people, the normal people around here are having the normal reactions.
Yup. She deserves compensation from his estate not the other way round
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