ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th February 2019, 07:38 PM   #361
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,425
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
In your view then, rapists aren't "bastards" they are "black men."

Each to their own, I guess.
Nice try. He wasn’t looking for a rapist. You should know this by now.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2019, 07:57 PM   #362
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,235
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Nice try. He wasn’t looking for a rapist. You should know this by now.
He wasn't looking for a black man either.

Thanks for trying though.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2019, 08:52 PM   #363
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,425
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I get the feeling that it more of a vigilante style behavior than anything else. He went out as "bait", hoping that a street thug would give him an excuse to pop someone with a crowbar. Oh, and by the way, he expected the person who would attack him to be black, just like the one who raped his friend, and just like an awful lot of street criminals in those days.

I remember the '70s, '80s, and early '90s. Crime was going up, up, up. People didn't feel safe, and for very good reason, and especially "urban youth", i.e. black teenagers, were pretty darned scary. Jesse Jackson famously once said he was frightened when being followed by young black people. I guess Jesse was racist? I'm pretty sure this is the era that Liam Neeson is talking about.

I remember Bernard Goetz, the "subway vigilante". Just in case there are youngsters in the audience, he was on the New York City subway when he was approached by four black youths. He shot them. No one was killed, but one of them was paralyzed. There was a lot of debate about whether or not he was just racist. He was acquitted. The jury bought his reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm self defense argument, because they would have been afraid, too. And it turned out that one of the youths who was shot later admitted that they were, in fact, planning on mugging him.

By coincidence, as that trial was raging, I was briefly held hostage by two armed robbers who were robbing the Wendy's that my girlfriend and I were eating in. I remember thinking that I was glad Bernard Goetz wasn't there, because he might miss, and that would be bad. A couple of weeks later, we were telling the story to a friend's father and he asked, trying to sound casual, "Couple of white guys?" We knew what he meant, and we informed him that no, they were in fact African Americans.

So, that's the environment Neeson was in. At least in the US, it was an era where we were all afraid on the streets, and street crime was disproportionately committed by blacks, and then his friend or relative got raped by a black man. I think it set him off, and he picked up a crowbar, and hit the streets hoping that someone would "make his day."

ETA: And I don't plan on seeing this movie, but I might some day, and his brief encounter with blind rage, lust for revenge, and some element of racism will make no difference to me at all. It was a long time ago, and he got over it, so that has nothing to do with why I won't see the movie. Oh, and, by the way, the characters on the screen are just being played by actors. They aren't really the people portrayed in the movie. The reason I don't plan on seeing the movie is that I seriously doubt it could be as good as "Taken", so I would expect that it would just feel like a disappointing sequel.
It may have been around the same time, but the context was very different. If a group of men were walking towards you in Norn Iron at that time, you would probably be relieved if it was a group of black guys because there probably weren’t many in the IRA or the UDF or with sympathies to either side.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2019, 09:08 PM   #364
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 43,339
Here's Sam Harris' take on the issue, and as usual, he nails it on the head.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2019, 09:58 PM   #365
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,235
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Nice try. He wasn’t looking for a rapist. You should know this by now.
Okay, have we got the sniping out of the way? I would prefer our conversation be reasoned and productive even if we don't change each other's mind.

My view is that the race of the rapist was secondary. He would have been out doing what he did no matter what race the perpetrator was. He wasn't angry because the guy was black, he was angry because his relative had been raped.

I deduce this because he told the story in response to a question about revenge. How does that fit if the point is that the guy was black? It doesn't. Neeson wasn't trying to take revenge because someone was black, he wanted revenge because his relative had been raped.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2019, 11:46 PM   #366
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,605
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Here's Sam Harris' take on the issue, and as usual, he nails it on the head.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Quite a good break down really, but to be fair, it might be just it happening to be pretty much what I think.

Like the "If it was a cop analogy"
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 12:42 AM   #367
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,740
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Okay, have we got the sniping out of the way? I would prefer our conversation be reasoned and productive even if we don't change each other's mind.

My view is that the race of the rapist was secondary. He would have been out doing what he did no matter what race the perpetrator was. He wasn't angry because the guy was black, he was angry because his relative had been raped.

I deduce this because he told the story in response to a question about revenge. How does that fit if the point is that the guy was black? It doesn't. Neeson wasn't trying to take revenge because someone was black, he wanted revenge because his relative had been raped.
Yes, but he wasn't looking for the rapist, he was looking for ANY black man to give him an excuse to claim self defense.

If he'd been looking for the rapist, I'd agree with you, but since any "black bastard" would do, you can't say race didn't matter. And saying that at least he didn't look for a black man who wasn't acting like a bastard to beat up doesn't make race irrelevant either.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 12:47 AM   #368
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,787
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational.



That is the epitome of delusion.



Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state.



And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc.



Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.
This wasn't a passing moment of reaction.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 12:51 AM   #369
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,787
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
He wasn't looking for him because he was black. He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.
He wasn't looking for a particular black man, he was looking for any black man he would judge to be aggressive.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 12:51 AM   #370
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,787
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
How so? If he was killing someone because they were black any black person would do. He wanted to kill someone because they were violent not because of their skin colour.
That isn't the anecdote he mentioned.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 12:53 AM   #371
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,787
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
He wasn't looking for a black man either.



Thanks for trying though.
He said he was looking for a black man.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 03:36 AM   #372
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,602
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

Huh!? No, you clearly misunderstand. He wasn’t looking for the rapist. He was looking for someone who was the same colour as the rapist. That’s all and that’s racism.
Lets look at what he said again;

"I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody...hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know"

He was hoping a black person would confront him, so he had an excuse to attack. He was looking for a black person who was aggressive to others. Considering how few black people there were, then reduce that further to how many would go out and have a go at others and he statistically, had reduced his target group down to quite likely to include the rapist he wanted revenge on.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 03:39 AM   #373
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,740
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think your average rapist is prone to random bursts of aggression toward fit 30 year old men in broad daylight...
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 04:24 AM   #374
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,650
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This wasn't a passing moment of reaction.
Well, it did pass.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 04:30 AM   #375
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18,488
Neeson grew up in Northern Ireland, moved to London in 1981, and to Hollywood in 1987. (Wikipedia) He hasn't said when or where the incident took place.


(And of course there's a possibility that the incident never took place at all. Maybe it's a complete fabrication or wild exaggeration. Either way, I'm not going to burn my copy of Excalibur.)
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 05:36 AM   #376
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,650
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(And of course there's a possibility that the incident never took place at all. Maybe it's a complete fabrication or wild exaggeration. Either way, I'm not going to burn my copy of Excalibur.)
"The queen is innocent!"
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 05:59 AM   #377
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Rule of so...

Why must an appeal to using the opportunity for more than just ridicule and condemnation mean that anyone wants to celebrate bad behavior?
The point being made by mgidm86 was that we should appreciate Neeson's 'honesty'.

Purleese.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 06:03 AM   #378
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I get the feeling that it more of a vigilante style behavior than anything else. He went out as "bait", hoping that a street thug would give him an excuse to pop someone with a crowbar. Oh, and by the way, he expected the person who would attack him to be black, just like the one who raped his friend, and just like an awful lot of street criminals in those days.

I remember the '70s, '80s, and early '90s. Crime was going up, up, up. People didn't feel safe, and for very good reason, and especially "urban youth", i.e. black teenagers, were pretty darned scary. Jesse Jackson famously once said he was frightened when being followed by young black people. I guess Jesse was racist? I'm pretty sure this is the era that Liam Neeson is talking about.

I remember Bernard Goetz, the "subway vigilante". Just in case there are youngsters in the audience, he was on the New York City subway when he was approached by four black youths. He shot them. No one was killed, but one of them was paralyzed. There was a lot of debate about whether or not he was just racist. He was acquitted. The jury bought his reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm self defense argument, because they would have been afraid, too. And it turned out that one of the youths who was shot later admitted that they were, in fact, planning on mugging him.

By coincidence, as that trial was raging, I was briefly held hostage by two armed robbers who were robbing the Wendy's that my girlfriend and I were eating in. I remember thinking that I was glad Bernard Goetz wasn't there, because he might miss, and that would be bad. A couple of weeks later, we were telling the story to a friend's father and he asked, trying to sound casual, "Couple of white guys?" We knew what he meant, and we informed him that no, they were in fact African Americans.

So, that's the environment Neeson was in. At least in the US, it was an era where we were all afraid on the streets, and street crime was disproportionately committed by blacks, and then his friend or relative got raped by a black man. I think it set him off, and he picked up a crowbar, and hit the streets hoping that someone would "make his day."

ETA: And I don't plan on seeing this movie, but I might some day, and his brief encounter with blind rage, lust for revenge, and some element of racism will make no difference to me at all. It was a long time ago, and he got over it, so that has nothing to do with why I won't see the movie. Oh, and, by the way, the characters on the screen are just being played by actors. They aren't really the people portrayed in the movie. The reason I don't plan on seeing the movie is that I seriously doubt it could be as good as "Taken", so I would expect that it would just feel like a disappointing sequel.
Ah. So the argument now is, 'the streets are full of Black muggers, no wonder people are scared and want to kill or maim Black people.'

That's all right then.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 06:08 AM   #379
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Here's Sam Harris' take on the issue, and as usual, he nails it on the head.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Not really as Sam Harris says where in the world is there a place for people with special apologies and asking for forgiveness?

Neeson hasn't asked for forgiveness and his only apology is for having a 'primeval urge', not for his racist attitude.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 06:09 AM   #380
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Okay, have we got the sniping out of the way? I would prefer our conversation be reasoned and productive even if we don't change each other's mind.

My view is that the race of the rapist was secondary. He would have been out doing what he did no matter what race the perpetrator was. He wasn't angry because the guy was black, he was angry because his relative had been raped.

I deduce this because he told the story in response to a question about revenge. How does that fit if the point is that the guy was black? It doesn't. Neeson wasn't trying to take revenge because someone was black, he wanted revenge because his relative had been raped.
It wasn't a relative. It was some vague 'friend'.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 06:15 AM   #381
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Black bastard =/= black man.

bas·tard
noun
1. INFORMAL, an unpleasant or despicable person.
"he lied to me, the bastard!"

synonyms: scoundrel, villain, rogue, rascal, brute, animal, weasel, snake, monster, ogre, wretch, devil, good-for-nothing, reprobate, wrongdoer, evil-doer;
Come off it. You must surely know there is a myth that 'Blacks are all illegitimate'.

I can recall a work colleague thinking it hilarious to say all Africans were 'cousins' and not in a complimentary way.

The truth is, of all the offensive racist terms, 'black bastard' is probably one of the worst and most hurtful, because the legacy of slavery meant that for African Americans and African Caribbeans, it is a painful slur of their chattel past, when their offpsring were just seen as livestock and they were bred like animals, with no legal personal status, let alone marriage or birth certificate.

For someone to say, oh it's OK, because some Black guy raped his friend, so that makes it understandable.

I don't see that it does. His phraseology is a dead giveaway.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 06:25 AM   #382
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,602
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think your average rapist is prone to random bursts of aggression toward fit 30 year old men in broad daylight...
It was a stupid idea.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 06:28 AM   #383
Ethan Thane Athen
Graduate Poster
 
Ethan Thane Athen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,928
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Lets look at what he said again;

"I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody...hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know"

He was hoping a black person would confront him, so he had an excuse to attack. He was looking for a black person who was aggressive to others. Considering how few black people there were, then reduce that further to how many would go out and have a go at others and he statistically, had reduced his target group down to quite likely to include the rapist he wanted revenge on.
Ooooh, woah, woah, woah, now it's you doing the huge assumption stretch. At no time did he suggest he wanted an excuse to beat up a black person because it would be likely they'd be the rapist and, as you yourself have pointed out to me, he admitted it was racist (just that he himself isn't....now). The whole supposed point of his anecdote was to show how anyone can have dumb, unthinking emotive reactions to extreme, emotional circumstances - that completely falls apart if you're suggesting he worked out an odds on plan for actually confronting the rapist himself.

This seems really at odds with your previous, very sensible (certainly more so than mine) take on the whole thing.
Ethan Thane Athen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 06:51 AM   #384
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,602
Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Ooooh, woah, woah, woah, now it's you doing the huge assumption stretch. At no time did he suggest he wanted an excuse to beat up a black person because it would be likely they'd be the rapist and, as you yourself have pointed out to me, he admitted it was racist (just that he himself isn't....now). The whole supposed point of his anecdote was to show how anyone can have dumb, unthinking emotive reactions to extreme, emotional circumstances - that completely falls apart if you're suggesting he worked out an odds on plan for actually confronting the rapist himself.

This seems really at odds with your previous, very sensible (certainly more so than mine) take on the whole thing.
It was part of my point that Neeson was not out to get revenge on any old black man.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 07:00 AM   #385
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It was part of my point that Neeson was not out to get revenge on any old black man.
I get it. It wasn't about a 'Black man' or a 'Black bastard', he was thinking of the Black and Tans!

"Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man,
Show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders,
Tell them how the IRA made you run like hell away
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra."

It all fits, with his 70's 'Troubles' Norn and his being a Catholic.

Poor dear.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 07:10 AM   #386
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,425
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Here's Sam Harris' take on the issue, and as usual, he nails it on the head.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I don't see how he "nails it on the head" to be honest. I think he's right about the wider question of how it is that we can have redemption for things we regret doing or even thinking, but I disagree with his idea that the particular incident wasn't racist. I think Joe Rogan is right there.

Sam Harris says that it is to do with some kind of "instrumental violence" and says if we replace "black person" with "cop" it wouldn't be racist.

Well, no, maybe it would not. But if I said, "In my opinion, all cops are stupid and I hate them all." it obviously isn't racist. But if I replace "cops" with "blacks" then it would be.

And I think if he did replace "black person" with "English" it might indeed be bigotry. It is certainly considered bigotry if an English person in the 1970s said something along the lines of "Was he Irish? Right, I'm going to kill one of those Irish bastards!"
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 07:40 AM   #387
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,490
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't see how he "nails it on the head" to be honest. I think he's right about the wider question of how it is that we can have redemption for things we regret doing or even thinking, but I disagree with his idea that the particular incident wasn't racist. I think Joe Rogan is right there.

Sam Harris says that it is to do with some kind of "instrumental violence" and says if we replace "black person" with "cop" it wouldn't be racist.

Well, no, maybe it would not. But if I said, "In my opinion, all cops are stupid and I hate them all." it obviously isn't racist. But if I replace "cops" with "blacks" then it would be.

And I think if he did replace "black person" with "English" it might indeed be bigotry. It is certainly considered bigotry if an English person in the 1970s said something along the lines of "Was he Irish? Right, I'm going to kill one of those Irish bastards!"
That's a really persuasive point. Grouping is not the same as racism.

If racism is believing one race is superior/inferior to another, then Neeson was not being racist. I hadn't thought of it that way.

It seems so obvious that his plan was racist; I mean, he was hoping for specifically a black guy to pick a fight with him. But he wasn't oriented to thinking blacks were better or worse. It was just an identifying trait, like being a cop.

eta: just caught the Harris vid from Ron Tompkins. Yeah, Harris nailed it.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

Last edited by Thermal; 8th February 2019 at 07:51 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 07:42 AM   #388
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,235
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Come off it. You must surely know there is a myth that 'Blacks are all illegitimate'.

I can recall a work colleague thinking it hilarious to say all Africans were 'cousins' and not in a complimentary way.

The truth is, of all the offensive racist terms, 'black bastard' is probably one of the worst and most hurtful, because the legacy of slavery meant that for African Americans and African Caribbeans, it is a painful slur of their chattel past, when their offpsring were just seen as livestock and they were bred like animals, with no legal personal status, let alone marriage or birth certificate.

For someone to say, oh it's OK, because some Black guy raped his friend, so that makes it understandable.

I don't see that it does. His phraseology is a dead giveaway.
I just love how people think there is only one white culture. Neeson isn't American and he wasn't living in America at the time of the incident. Look at the different use of words between America and Canada which are side by side. Then compare America to England, Scotland, Ireland, which were not force fed American culture. Your argument is through an American filter and doesn't apply to N. Ireland many decades ago.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 07:51 AM   #389
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's a really persuasive point. Grouping is not the same as racism.

If racism is believing one race is superior/inferior to another, then Neeson was not being racist. I hadn't thought of it that way.

It seems so obvious that his plan was racist; I mean, he was hoping for specifically a black guy to pick a fight with him. But he wasn't oriented to thinking blacks were better or worse. It was just an identifying trait, like being a cop.
I once knew someone who hated cops with a vengeance. He even had dots on each of his fingers (beneath 'LOVE' and 'HATE') signifying 'All Coppers Are Bastards'. Now if he was given an excuse to go out and look for one to kill, say a 'friend said she was raped by one', are you seriously saying that his 'primeval urge' to kill a cop would be no different than if she had said 'I was raped by a Lithuanian'?

No, of course not, because like Neeson, he was driven by a burning hatred towards a particular demographic. It doesn't get justified just because a member of that demographic does something that gives a bigot an excuse for disgusting behaviour.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 08:02 AM   #390
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,490
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I once knew someone who hated cops with a vengeance. He even had dots on each of his fingers (beneath 'LOVE' and 'HATE') signifying 'All Coppers Are Bastards'. Now if he was given an excuse to go out and look for one to kill, say a 'friend said she was raped by one', are you seriously saying that his 'primeval urge' to kill a cop would be no different than if she had said 'I was raped by a Lithuanian'?

No, of course not, because like Neeson, he was driven by a burning hatred towards a particular demographic. It doesn't get justified just because a member of that demographic does something that gives a bigot an excuse for disgusting behaviour.
You are assuming, and it is strictly an out-of-the-blue assumption, that he already disliked black people in general. I am taking it as it was the only trait that was identified: black, and male.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 08:30 AM   #391
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,235
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, of course not, because like Neeson, he was driven by a burning hatred towards a particular demographic.
Yeah, rapists.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 09:15 AM   #392
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 31,732
New theory: Liam Neeson is sick and tired of being typecast, not just as an action hero, but a specific subtype of revenge-driven everyman action hero. This "confession" was an intentional outburst, intended to derail his career for a couple years. Later, he'll come back and make an "atonement" picture in a different genre entirely, and continue the business of show on that basis.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 09:23 AM   #393
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,490
Maybe he'll be ahead of the curve for making racist-recovery a thing?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 10:07 AM   #394
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,602
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I once knew someone who hated cops with a vengeance. He even had dots on each of his fingers (beneath 'LOVE' and 'HATE') signifying 'All Coppers Are Bastards'. Now if he was given an excuse to go out and look for one to kill, say a 'friend said she was raped by one', are you seriously saying that his 'primeval urge' to kill a cop would be no different than if she had said 'I was raped by a Lithuanian'?

No, of course not, because like Neeson, he was driven by a burning hatred towards a particular demographic. It doesn't get justified just because a member of that demographic does something that gives a bigot an excuse for disgusting behaviour.
Please evidence Neeson had a burning hatred of blacks, particularly before this incident.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 10:34 AM   #395
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,924
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Please evidence Neeson had a burning hatred of blacks, particularly before this incident.
By his phraseology.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 10:38 AM   #396
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,740
Sure, it's not as if bastard is an extremely common low level curse word in Britain.
It must refer to some kind of hidden prejudice that all black people are born out of wedlock, and somehow refers to slavery as well.
Makes about as much sense as mermaids being real I suppose
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 10:56 AM   #397
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,631
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Unless you can show that he attempted to assault someone, yes.

However I'll retract the "literally", obviously.
Unless he has been charged with one, you need to also retract the “crime” bit.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 10:58 AM   #398
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,490
Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Unless he has been charged with one, you need to also retract the “crime” bit.
Carrying an offensive weapon?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 11:10 AM   #399
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 78,650
Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Unless he has been charged with one, you need to also retract the “crime” bit.
Ah, so you're now saying that stating that something is literal, as opposed to metaphorical or colloquial, makes no difference?

Don't pretend to not understand what the term "thoughtcrime" means.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2019, 01:09 PM   #400
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 43,339
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

Sam Harris says that it is to do with some kind of "instrumental violence" and says if we replace "black person" with "cop" it wouldn't be racist.

Well, no, maybe it would not. But if I said, "In my opinion, all cops are stupid and I hate them all." it obviously isn't racist. But if I replace "cops" with "blacks" then it would be.

And I think if he did replace "black person" with "English" it might indeed be bigotry. It is certainly considered bigotry if an English person in the 1970s said something along the lines of "Was he Irish? Right, I'm going to kill one of those Irish bastards!"
And that's precisely the point Harris is making: As you yourself just said, if the specific was not that the man was black, but rather that he was a cop, then Neeson would be looking for a cop to kill. That's why he's not a racist. Neeson didn't have any hatred or aggressiveness against black men before the rape incident happened, nor does he currently hold one. It was during this week of intense anger and frustration at not having any means to find the perpetrator of the crime that he went looking for a black man. But again, it just happened that "black" was the only descriptor he had to identify/associate the target. But it could have been anything else, other than a racial specific (like cop, or tall person, or fat person, or person wearing a burka, or person wearing a tall black hat, etc), and if so, he would be looking for those descriptors in the person.

And before anyone tries to argue, no, this doesn't change that it was still wrong. But this isn't racism.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan

Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 8th February 2019 at 01:39 PM.
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.