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Old 5th February 2019, 11:49 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure what the shouting and the sarcasm is intended to convey, but yes, exactly. This seems like a terrible choice of personal anecdotes, for drumming up interest in a film.
That this is a storm in a teacup which some people are flocking to, so as to be horrified.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:51 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I don't think we can assume he wouldn't have gone looking for a tall man or a postman, if that were the only information he had. (Unless we assume he's a racist, and therefore would have reacted differently to knowledge of a distinguishing feature of skin color than he would have to knowledge of a distinguishing feature of height or clothing/occupation. But in that case, concluding he's a racist after having assumed so is no surprise.)

Going after any innocent person for revenge would be a criminal act, an immoral act, and an injustice. If we can prove it's also racism, does it really become a super-uber-mega-injustice instead?
Well we do know though dont we? because people dont associate occupations like postman or height with being violent criminals. in fact in this case the victim no.doubt could have told him if the perpetrator was short or tall but that wasn't considered relevant grounds to target his retribution but skin colour was.

Also note that he wasnt going looking for THAT black man but any black man.

You will also.note that i made no comment on whether that makes it a super mega injustice or not but if you are asking yes i think its worse to kill someone for sharing the same skin colour as a criminal than to kill someone you suspect is the criminal.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:51 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yes, because he went out looking for a black bastard to kill. Had the perpetrator not been black then killing a black man in revenge would seem counter intuitive
He also said he would have gone hunting for a Lithuanian if the rapist had been from Lithuania. He was not out for revenge purely because the rapist was black and anyone one else he would have been OK with.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:57 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He also said he would have gone hunting for a Lithuanian if the rapist had been from Lithuania. He was not out for revenge purely because the rapist was black and anyone one else he would have been OK with.
Perhaps thats true but it would equally bad and racist too. And I know Lithuanian is not a race before that gets brought up.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:00 PM   #125
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It's a good thing he didn't run into a bastard... from Castle BLACK!!!

AKA Jon Snow...
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:04 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Perhaps thats true but it would equally bad and racist too. And I know Lithuanian is not a race before that gets brought up.
The main issue is he wanted revenge for a rape. He could not find the actual rapist, so he took the most identifying feature and looked for someone who fitted that feature.

Should we not be more concerned with the notion of vigilantism and revenge, which is a reoccurring theme of many of his films.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:11 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The main issue is he wanted revenge for a rape. He could not find the actual rapist, so he took the most identifying feature and looked for someone who fitted that feature.

Should we not be more concerned with the notion of vigilantism and revenge, which is a reoccurring theme of many of his films.
Seems like just that'd be just another storm in a teacup for people to flock to, so as to be horrified.

ETA: I mean, look how you flocked right into this thread, with your expressions of horrification.

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Old 5th February 2019, 12:17 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The main issue is he wanted revenge for a rape. He could not find the actual rapist, so he took the most identifying feature and looked for someone who fitted that feature.

Should we not be more concerned with the notion of vigilantism and revenge, which is a reoccurring theme of many of his films.
Indeed, and taking revenge on someone because they sbare a skin colour with the perpetrator is bad. thats why racism is bad.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:25 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The main issue is he wanted revenge for a rape. He could not find the actual rapist, so he took the most identifying feature and looked for someone who fitted that feature.
I'm not sure why this is so surprising, since that's exactly what happens in so many cases. The fact that it seems to be a common human reaction, to visit pain and suffering on someone you view as being from the community that has injured you, doesn't make it right. But it does help to identify the feeling so you can then rise above it and think rationally
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Should we not be more concerned with the notion of vigilantism and revenge, which is a reoccurring theme of many of his films.
I don't know, though from what little I know of his films, the revenge is generally targeted on the perpetrators not people who simply share characteristics with them. That still leaves the vigilantism, which is of course a bad thing in a civilised society.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:31 PM   #130
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I would say wanting to take revenge on the perpetrator is an understandable but probably unwelcome and unhelpful reaction.

Wanting to take revenge on someone who looks a bit like the perpetrator from a distance is a whole different ballgame.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:32 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I would say wanting to take revenge on the perpetrator is an understandable but probably unwelcome and unhelpful reaction.

Wanting to take revenge on someone who looks a bit like the perpetrator from a distance is a whole different ballgame.
What are your feelings about taking revenge on someone who looks nothing like the perpetrator?
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:35 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It wasn't just thoughts. He roamed the streets with a crowbar hoping to have a black guy start something that he would finish. This was action, premeditated and sustained for a week or so.
Liam said it was a cosh, which in British/Irish vernacular means a short weighted leather or rubber club; what Americans call a "crowbar" is a jemmy here; when we say "crowbar," it refers to a digging bar.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:38 PM   #133
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Apparently, when his 'friend' told him she had been raped, he asked, "What colour was he?"

Why would he ask that in a country that at the time was around 99.5% white? It makes no sense.

Surely he would have asked who the guy was, where it happened, who else knew, then tried to track him down on that basis. Sure, it would be useful to get a physical description at this point but instead, what does he do? Ignore anything that could lead him to the guy and hang around street corners with a cosh waiting to be accosted by a random black man?

I call a big old crock of **** on this one. It's a publicity stunt.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:38 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Liam said it was a cosh, which in British/Irish vernacular means a short weighted leather or rubber club; what Americans call a "crowbar" is a jemmy here; when we say "crowbar," it refers to a digging bar.
Or how you call a video camera a telly gun.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:39 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He also said he would have gone hunting for a Lithuanian if the rapist had been from Lithuania. He was not out for revenge purely because the rapist was black and anyone one else he would have been OK with.
Where was the rapist from? He could have gone after someone from that same country, right? But he didn't. He went after black people.

This whole, "He would have gone after someone from X country if it had been that" is nonsense. It WAS that. The rapist was from somewhere, and he didn't go after anyone from there. He went straight to race.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe Liam Neeson was on the streets of Chicago in the wee hours of a winter morning, about to get his hate crime on... Then, at the last minute, "hey, aren't you that gay black guy from Empire? My bad! Here's your sandwich back. Sorry about the rib!"
Wins two threads with one post!!!
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:45 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Where was the rapist from? He could have gone after someone from that same country, right? But he didn't. He went after black people.

This whole, "He would have gone after someone from X country if it had been that" is nonsense. It WAS that. The rapist was from somewhere, and he didn't go after anyone from there. He went straight to race.
Presumably because that's the data he had, no?
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:56 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like just that'd be just another storm in a teacup for people to flock to, so as to be horrified.

ETA: I mean, look how you flocked right into this thread, with your expressions of horrification.
I am clearly not that horrified. I think this was a publicity stunt for his latest revenge thriller.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:57 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Indeed, and taking revenge on someone because they sbare a skin colour with the perpetrator is bad. thats why racism is bad.
The revenge was for rape, not being black.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:58 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Where was the rapist from? He could have gone after someone from that same country, right? But he didn't. He went after black people.

This whole, "He would have gone after someone from X country if it had been that" is nonsense. It WAS that. The rapist was from somewhere, and he didn't go after anyone from there. He went straight to race.
If the answer to skin colour was white, maybe the next question would be, what accent did he have? Neeson said he would have targets Brits if that was who the rapist was.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:59 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Actor Liam Neeson was discussing how he understood the primal desire for revenge with a personal anecdote: long ago, a loved one had been raped by a black man, and he became obsessed with the idea of revenge. He took to walking the streets, hoping a 'black bastard' would pick a fight with him so he could kill him. Neeson acknowledges how horribly wrong it was, and that although he understands that revenge doesn't work, there is a deep, irrational desire for it. Predictably, he is being blasted as a racist. I take this as not being against black men per se, but that he only knew the attacker was black and a man, so those were the only elements he had to irrationally focus on.

Pain and obsession with revenge are a thing, IMO. Does he get a pass for his temporary, misplaced desire to kill a black man, or is he rotten at the core and the rape is what brought it to the surface?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/04/enter...eeson-revenge/
It wasn't a 'loved one', it was only a friend. Somehow, this gave justification for Neeson's deep-seated race hate and he was psychologically 'given permission' to let it all hang out. 'I'm doing the vigilante bit on behalf of my mate Jenny'.

At least when Charles Bronson did it, it was in revenge for the rape and murder of his daughter (or was it his wife and daughter?) and at least he was only targetting the criminal gangs roaming NY subways harassing little old ladies and pregnant mothers.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:04 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Would it be considered racist if he was out looking for a white man?
That's the point, isn't it? He would not have made the association "white guy = rapist".
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:08 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Apparently, when his 'friend' told him she had been raped, he asked, "What colour was he?"

Why would he ask that in a country that at the time was around 99.5% white? It makes no sense.

Surely he would have asked who the guy was, where it happened, who else knew, then tried to track him down on that basis. Sure, it would be useful to get a physical description at this point but instead, what does he do? Ignore anything that could lead him to the guy and hang around street corners with a cosh waiting to be accosted by a random black man?

I call a big old crock of **** on this one. It's a publicity stunt.
Or he's misremembering because it was so long ago. Or he's cutting out a lot because he was trying to get to the point rather than explaining pointless details.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:11 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am clearly not that horrified. I think this was a publicity stunt for his latest revenge thriller.
Ehh. I know in the Gillette thread I said that some ads are designed to attract one demographic, and to anger another, but I don't see it with this story. This one will outrage most nonracist people, and attract...George Zimmerman, probably, and that's about it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:11 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Agree with this take. But I would allow a for temporary insanity defense.

It is difficult to understand the type of rage that would be accompanying the rape of a family member.

I think you can have racist thoughts, during a time of extreme mental trauma. That you might be disgusted by after the trauma passes.

I'm led to the scene in Platoon when they wipe out the village in a mass rage.
It wasn't a family member, it was some vague friend.

I had a gay male friend who told us of his appalling experience of his gay rape in a taxi.

We didn't take up a cosh and go schlepping the streets ready to beat up any gay-looking guy. Common sense tells you it is a rubbish excuse.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:14 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's the point, isn't it? He would not have made the association "white guy = rapist".
He had been told by a friend she had been raped. If she had said he was white with an eastern European accent, Neeson said he would have gone hunting for someone like that.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:15 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I suspect it was, to some extent, his "true feelings".

Considering when and where he grew up, finding some unknown from group 'A' had done something to someone in your group, getting revenge by targetting anyone from group 'A' was not unheard of.

That's the true feelings...
Apparently he grew up as a Catholic in troubled Ireland. I did grow up with a few of these types in London and they were very macho and aggressive in attitude. Very sectarian and hard.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:17 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Ehh. I know in the Gillette thread I said that some ads are designed to attract one demographic, and to anger another, but I don't see it with this story. This one will outrage most nonracist people, and attract...George Zimmerman, probably, and that's about it.
He was talking about a time in his past he walked the street intent on revenge. Have you seen many of his films? One man out for revenge is a huge theme.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:17 PM   #149
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I think his point is, that Revenge is such a powerful thing, it can make you do things you wouldn't normally do, and think things you wouldn't normally think.

The Count of Monte Cristo was not a murderer, but the thought of revenge turned him into one, and a very good one to boot.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:22 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It wasn't a 'loved one', it was only a friend...
Before going on to your psychoanalytic assessment, you claim they you cannot love a friend, or that you are sure he didn't? Pretty cold, if the former. Pretty psychic, if the latter.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:24 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Er no. It wasn't one of those momentary flashes of irrationality all non psychopath humans can have. He specifically asked what colour the attacker was, then armed himself with a weapon and went around for at least a week looking for someone to use it on.
Surely not for a whole week?
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:25 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Or he's misremembering because it was so long ago. Or he's cutting out a lot because he was trying to get to the point rather than explaining pointless details.
I really can't see the addition of details would do anything but make the story even more unbelievable.

Do you think the plot of Taken would be improved if Bryan Mills, upon hearing that his daughter had been kidnapped, had said, "I can't be arsed to track down the people who did it, instead I'm going to stick a billy club down my pants and hang around some Albanian coffee shops in the hope I'll be accosted by a 'swarthy bastard'?"
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:27 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Here's the thing: lynchings aren't racist. But the historical lynchings in the US were absolutely part of a system of ingrained racism.

Neeson's desire was not, based on the information we have, based on a view that black people are inferior or evil, but on an irrational and stupid conflation of visible characteristics.

And to respond specifically to your post, it's cool to see people construct a definition of racism that includes casting actors for historical characters.
No, it is based on the equally racist view that Black guys are predatory and super-sexed.

I read a book about some white guy who made himself black as journalistic research. He was shocked that the white guys he encountered all seemed to want to know about his endowments, as it were.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:27 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This was in Ireland? Considering less than 1% of the country is of African descent, I'm not surprised he didnt find anybody.
Joking aside, this does highlight a problem we have with the lack of detail. If, indeed, this event took place in Belfast - especially many decades ago - an individual matching even the limited description Neeson supposedly had would have been very rare indeed. The fact that in two weeks he didn't find such a match sort of corroborates that. In that context, though, I don't buy that his first question would have been about the perpetrator's colour, at least not in the way related.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:44 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Indeed. I don't know why anyone would defend Neeson here. At the very least, he admits that it was wrong and stupid, which at least suggests he's changed since then. But that was a tremendously stupid thing to do. Good thing nobody got on the wrong end of his particular set of skills during that week.
...Which doesn't include acting. His 'Taken' films are all ***** anyway.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:46 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The answer is no;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47133868

"He (Neeson) told ABC: "If she had said an Irish or a Scot or a Brit or a Lithuanian I would - I know I would - have had the same effect. I was trying to show honour, to stand up for my dear friend in this terribly medieval fashion.""
Yeah, of course he would. He'd be skulking about the streets looking for 'some Lithuanian bastard'.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:47 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He was talking about a time in his past he walked the street intent on revenge. Have you seen many of his films? One man out for revenge is a huge theme.
He was talking about getting "revenge" against random people based on skin color - that's just raging racism. There's nothing at all admirable about that, even in a revenge fantasy movie such a character would be identified as a villain by every right-thinking person. Telling a story about that in real life doesn't make Neeson admirable in any way to ordinary people - at best, he learned not to be a violently racist idiot.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:53 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Good thing nobody got on the wrong end of his particular set of skills during that week.
"If you let my daughter go now that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you, but if you don't, I will look for someone who bears a passing resemblance to you, I will wait until that person attacks me outside a coffee shop, and I will hit him on the head with a billy club."
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:55 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
He was talking about getting "revenge" against random people based on skin color - that's just raging racism. There's nothing at all admirable about that, even in a revenge fantasy movie such a character would be identified as a villain by every right-thinking person. Telling a story about that in real life doesn't make Neeson admirable in any way to ordinary people - at best, he learned not to be a violently racist idiot.
The motivation for revenge was a rape, not skin colour.

He admits to being stupid and regretting what he did.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:56 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, it is based on the equally racist view that Black guys are predatory and super-sexed.
Isn't that inferior in a way? Less civilised?
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