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Old 6th February 2019, 05:38 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The world has gone mad.


A guy makes a confession that once, when confronted with an absolutely horrible situation, he acted irrationally and, in his own words, horribly, and he realizes just how bad it was, even though he didn't actually do anything that harmed anyone. He didn't say anything bad to anyone. He didn't hit anyone. He didn't threaten anyone. He didn't do anything at all, although he contemplated it.


And now people say we shouldn't watch his movies.

This is madness.

Human beings are not, by nature, good. We are subject to base instincts and emotions just like our base cousins in the animal kingdom. Liam Neeson was confronted with a situation where those base instincts rose to the surface....almost, but his higher self, his rational mind, did resume control, and not only did he not inflict harm on anyone, he realized the horror of what he had been fantasizing about.


And fantasy is what it was. If he had truly wanted to kill someone, does anyone think it would have been impossible to find a victim? He was acting out vicious thoughts, but only partially, and he gained control before anything bad happened. And he confessed it. And now, people think we shouldn't watch his films.


As a society, we have become a bunch of self-righteous gits.
This is literally thought crime.
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Old 6th February 2019, 05:40 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
That's not actually why they were killing each other, but explaining The Troubles is not really a conversation for this thread.

Meadmaker is correct, there would have to have been some other identifying factor other than white dude for Neeson to be out looking for one of that group, otherwise he could just have stayed home and beat himself up.
I know.

I was also the being part of the UK thing, but it is pointless to complicate it.

He wasn't looking for any identifying factor except for colour, so your point doesn't make sense
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Old 6th February 2019, 05:40 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This is literally thought crime.
It's literally bad publicity. It's figuratively thought crime.

ETA: Though, while we're on the crime analogy, it's generally considered a bad move to confess to crimes that nobody is asking about or accusing you of.

Last edited by theprestige; 6th February 2019 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 6th February 2019, 05:44 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I know.

I was also the being part of the UK thing, but it is pointless to complicate it.

He wasn't looking for any identifying factor except for colour, so your point doesn't make sense
My point makes perfect sense. I'm saying I agree with Meadmaker, its not that hard to understand.
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Old 6th February 2019, 05:46 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This is literally thought crime.
I don’t think Neeson is going to be prosecuted for his anecdote.
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Old 6th February 2019, 05:47 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
My point makes perfect sense. I'm saying I agree with Meadmaker, its not that hard to understand.
I understand you agree with them. I don't understand your logic.

He went after random coloured people, hoping one would attack him, for the one fact the alleged rapist was black.

That is it.

So why does it not follow the same would apply if his friend had said white?
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:00 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I understand you agree with them. I don't understand your logic.

He went after random coloured people, hoping one would attack him, for the one fact the alleged rapist was black.

That is it.

So why does it not follow the same would apply if his friend had said white?
Because that's not an identifying factor which distinguishes the rapist from Neeson himself.
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:06 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Because that's not an identifying factor which distinguishes the rapist from Neeson himself.
You seem to be basing a shed load of your theory of his motives on his detachment from the alleged felon.

Again, at the time people were killing each other all over the place and outwardly from appearance they were pretty much the same
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:13 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You seem to be basing a shed load of your theory of his motives on his detachment from the alleged felon.

Again, at the time people were killing each other all over the place and outwardly from appearance they were pretty much the same

People were not 'killing each other all over the place', the killings were targeted towards either loyalists and members of the security forces on one side, and nationalists/Catholics on the other. People here have no trouble telling the difference, no doubt all Northern Irish look the same from New Zealand though.


I can see how someone who grew up with that mentality would project it onto black people when they find themselves in a multi-racial society. I'm not for one minute excusing it, Neeson was obviously being a racist dick, but I can grasp the mentality.
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:20 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
People were not 'killing each other all over the place', the killings were targeted towards either loyalists and members of the security forces on one side, and nationalists/Catholics on the other. People here have no trouble telling the difference, no doubt all Northern Irish look the same from New Zealand though.


I can see how someone who grew up with that mentality would project it onto black people when they find themselves in a multi-racial society. I'm not for one minute excusing it, Neeson was obviously being a racist dick, but I can grasp the mentality.
Hate to break it to you, but your own first sentence agrees with my point.

As to no trouble telling the difference, are you denying innocent people died from bullets and bombs? Because that would be a tad stupid.
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:23 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Hate to break it to you, but your own first sentence agrees with my point.

As to no trouble telling the difference, are you denying innocent people died from bullets and bombs? Because that would be a tad stupid.
Innocent people died from bullets and bombs because innocent people were targeted for their membership of specific groups. Mistakes, ie Protestants killed by mistake for Catholics or vice versa, were rare, so yes we can tell the difference.

What point of yours do you think my first sentence agrees with?
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:26 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Innocent people died from bullets and bombs because innocent people were targeted for their membership of specific groups. Mistakes, ie Protestants killed by mistake for Catholics or vice versa, were rare, so yes we can tell the difference.

What point of yours do you think my first sentence agrees with?
"people were killing each other all over the place"
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:29 PM   #293
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Look

We are starting to be in danger of derailing the thread.

Why do you hold such importance on his detachment from the alleged rapist?
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:30 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"people were killing each other all over the place"
People were not killing each other all over the place. There are entire swathes of NI which were never touched by the Troubles at all, and the killings that did happen were targeted, so your point is not true either literally or figuratively.

We're getting very off the subject of Liam Neeson anyway. The point being that his tribal revenge mentality would have only been turned on a white man if there was some extra factor which identified him as a subset of white men, nationality or whatever.
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:35 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
People were not killing each other all over the place. There are entire swathes of NI which were never touched by the Troubles at all, and the killings that did happen were targeted, so your point is not true either literally or figuratively.

We're getting very off the subject of Liam Neeson anyway. The point being that his tribal revenge mentality would have only been turned on a white man if there was some extra factor which identified him as a subset of white men, nationality or whatever.

I meant in his environment.

His town and the towns around.

Apologies for not spelling it out properly
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:36 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
People were not killing each other all over the place. There are entire swathes of NI which were never touched by the Troubles at all, and the killings that did happen were targeted, so your point is not true either literally or figuratively.

We're getting very off the subject of Liam Neeson anyway. The point being that his tribal revenge mentality would have only been turned on a white man if there was some extra factor which identified him as a subset of white men, nationality or whatever.
And again your second paragraph relies on your need for him to have detachment
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 6th February 2019, 09:44 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Has it been pointed out that his plan was also quite sexist? A woman picking a fight with him so he could kill her should have been able to satisfy his desire for revenge just as well.
Noel Plum pointed this out in a recent video, but in general people don't really give a damn regarding sexism (against males) when they can paint it solely as only one (less politically correct) aspect of the bigotry (racism against blacks)
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Old 6th February 2019, 11:57 PM   #298
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This is what is wrong with the world these days. Somebody actually said something interesting in an unguarded moment and within minutes all the interest was drowned out by the hysterical hordes calling for the person's ruin.

It's like people are unaware they are more interesting than the robots SJWs think they should be.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:22 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, if she had told him "white", it isn't likely he would have gone out looking for white guys to beat on. There would have to be some identifiable trait that the perp had, but which Neeson didn't share, something that made him unmistakably part of "THEM", and then he goes after one of "THEM".
Neeson said that if the answer had been not black, he would have asked about nationality, Irish, Brit or Lithuanian.

Quote:
It's not admirable. That's the point. It made him realize just how irrational it was, and he grew from it. It doesn't make me think of him as an awesome fella, but he's still a good actor and he makes movies that are good, and people shouldn't be boycotted because they revealed some sort of bad behavior from their past. It's crazy. Everyone will be looking over their shoulder wondering who might find out that they once did something that they wouldn't do 20 years later.
He is guilty of a dreadful anecdote about how he once idiotically reacted in a rage and desired random revenge, whilst speaking about his latest thriller in which he seeks revenge for harm done to someone close to him.

His anecdote would have likely gone pretty much unnoticed if he had chosen his words more carefully. As said here;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47143399

"Neeson, in his rage over a rape, was engaging in the horrible art of collective guilt, seeing all black men as legitimate targets for the crime of one particular black man.
That is racist and wrong. But here's the thing: Neeson knows this. He admits the wickedness of his thinking.
He did not make this confession to promote the collective judgement of black people or race-based vengeance, but to do the opposite: to highlight how awful and corrupting such feelings are.
Yet none of this matters to the Twittermob or to those sections of the media that love nothing more than hanging out to dry individuals who have thought or said or done bad things."

There are a lot of that twitter mob here. There is nothing of note elsewhere in his career or personal life to suggest he is a racist.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:37 AM   #300
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https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html

What he said;

“There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,”

That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme.

"“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.”

I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped.

"“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person."

It is odd, considering the demographics of Ireland, especially them, he asked immediately about colour. I suspect faulty memory there.

“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody –"

He was not actually out to target a black person, there had to be an approach by that person, there needed to more than just being black.

"“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him.”

He is, from the outset making it clear he was wrong and he knows it. He also reiterates that it was not just looking for a black person, it was for a black person who had a go at him.

"It was horrible, horrible, when I think back, that I did that"....“It’s awful, but I did learn a lesson from it, when I eventually thought, ‘What the **** are you doing,’ you know?”

Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself.

So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:09 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html

What he said;

“There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,”

That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme.

"“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.”

I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped.

"“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person."

It is odd, considering the demographics of Ireland, especially them, he asked immediately about colour. I suspect faulty memory there.

“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody –"

He was not actually out to target a black person, there had to be an approach by that person, there needed to more than just being black.

"“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him.”

He is, from the outset making it clear he was wrong and he knows it. He also reiterates that it was not just looking for a black person, it was for a black person who had a go at him.

"It was horrible, horrible, when I think back, that I did that"....“It’s awful, but I did learn a lesson from it, when I eventually thought, ‘What the **** are you doing,’ you know?”

Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself.

So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way.
Welcome to 2019

The time of the more "empathetic" and "inclusive"
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Old 7th February 2019, 02:44 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
[url]It is odd, considering the demographics of Ireland, especially them, he asked immediately about colour. I suspect faulty memory there.
That struck me as odd as well. I wondered if the incident had happened in London.
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Old 7th February 2019, 03:41 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's literally bad publicity. It's figuratively thought crime.
Touché.
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Old 7th February 2019, 03:46 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What he said [...]

So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way.
Alternatively, a guy whose movies are so similar that it's impossible to promote them based on any original factor fabricates a story about revenge that, whilst designed to attract maximum publicity, resulted in no criminal action and no third party involvement and thus cannot be independently verified. Furthermore, he can distance himself from his mindset at the time because it happened 40 years ago and he had behaved, he now sees, in a 'horrible, horrible, awful' manner.
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Old 7th February 2019, 03:48 AM   #305
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I for one only want perfect saints to be eligible for the job of pretending to be other people for my amusement!

Let's destroy the white bastard's career!
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Old 7th February 2019, 04:41 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That struck me as odd as well. I wondered if the incident had happened in London.
Could be. I would have been less surprised if his first question was, did he have ginger hair? That would have suggested he was in Ireland at the time.
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Old 7th February 2019, 04:51 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe, but that doesn't tell us much, really, since it's the most obvious thing about someone, visually speaking.
Is it? I would think if he was very tall or obese that would be equally if not more obvious

Quote:
I'm not defending Neeson. I just don't like it when we extrapolate based on lack of information. Isn't that something we usually frown at, here?
God knows what you are actually doing other than oddly trying to argue that going around looking for a black man to kill isn't racism.
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:02 AM   #308
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He did not say he was looking for a black man to kill.

He said "I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him".

There was more than just the colour of the skin involved. Neeson was looking for a fight and non aggressive people who did not threaten him were not at risk.
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:16 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Is it? I would think if he was very tall or obese that would be equally if not more obvious
What's the first thing that they say about a suspect when they talk about it on the news?

Quote:
God knows what you are actually doing other than oddly trying to argue that going around looking for a black man to kill isn't racism.
And that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? Arguing that X might not be racism is a no-no regardless of circumstances. It's always racism. It doesn't matter that you don't really have any evidence that Neeson's a racist. It just feels good to have the pitchfork in your hands.
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:21 AM   #310
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This is literally thought crime.
Did he only THINK about going out to kill a black man then?
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:24 AM   #311
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Did he only THINK about going out to kill a black man then?
Unless you can show that he attempted to assault someone, yes.

However I'll retract the "literally", obviously.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:07 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? Arguing that X might not be racism is a no-no regardless of circumstances. It's always racism. It doesn't matter that you don't really have any evidence that Neeson's a racist. It just feels good to have the pitchfork in your hands.
Come on, who here has a pitchfork? Every response of those who say it was racist here has been along the lines of 'hoping a random black man gives you a reason to attack him because another black man has committed a crime and you want revenge is racist. This does not mean Neeson thinks all black people are bad, and his irrationality can probably be chalked up to how traumatizing it is to hear a loved one was raped'.
Nobody here is fuming with self-righteous anger, ready to condemn him as irredeemably evil, or looking for an excuse to brand everything involving people of different races as racist.

Perhaps you could explain why it might not be racist to want to hurt a random person of the same race as a rapist?
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:11 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Perhaps you could explain why it might not be racist to want to hurt a random person of the same race as a rapist?
I've already done that, actually. There's no reason to assume that had Neeson's friend had said "white, but with a cockney accent" he wouldn't have had the same reaction. It wasn't specifically about race, but latching onto any recogniseable characteristic to channel one's rage. Maybe I'm being overly charitable here, but assuming that it must be because Neeson was and is a racist is unwarranted, hence my pitchfork comment.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:13 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
This is what is wrong with the world these days. Somebody actually said something interesting in an unguarded moment and within minutes all the interest was drowned out by the hysterical hordes calling for the person's ruin.

It's like people are unaware they are more interesting than the robots SJWs think they should be.
I'm not calling for his ruin - and I haven't seen many people in this thread explicitly doing so either. I'm also very much aware that there may be lots of things about actors, musicians, authors etc* that I may disagree with or find distasteful - I usually separate that from whether or not I enjoy their work.

I, and I think others, were just joining what seemed an interesting debate and arguing about whether his act was racist (I don't see how it couldn't be, personally) with a side order of 'does that mean he is / was racist - much more debatable.

There has been some slagging off of his movies but that's because some see them / him as crap, nothing to do with his 'racism'. Personally I'm indifferent.

My initial exposure to this was a Radio 4 story that began 'Liam Neeson denies he's racist after telling an anecdote about wanting to beat up any black man because his friend had been raped by one'. That prompted a guffaw from me as that seemed very obviously illogical. On reading the thread and finding out more it's obviously more nuanced - I still suspect he's racist, in the same way many of his generation and upbringing are but not in a KKK, NF, BNP type way but, as Belz has pointed out, that's an assertion built on very weak evidence.

*I have friends who have been to school with Ricky Gervais and worked with Rob Brydon - despite what I've heard about them, I still find their work entertaining. Similarly I suspect I would disagree with Jon Schaffer on almost every aspect of his political / world view. I still enjoyed the last Iced Earth album.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:20 AM   #315
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I've already done that, actually. There's no reason to assume that had Neeson's friend had said "white, but with a cockney accent" he wouldn't have had the same reaction. It wasn't specifically about race, but latching onto any recogniseable characteristic to channel one's rage. Maybe I'm being overly charitable here, but assuming that it must be because Neeson was and is a racist is unwarranted, hence my pitchfork comment.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing on much - you just fall slightly more on one side of the charitable line than I do.

As Nessie and I have said (whilst disagreeing on some aspects), given the time passed and the tendency of people to elaborate stories (especially actors?) I doubt it's worth forensically analyzing his story - especially the bits after the furore. Yes I know I've done that - more for the debate interest than because I think it will yield a definitive conclusion though.

To be honest, I doubt he even armed himself and walked the streets, especially for a week. He probably just thought about it and it's grown in his memory / the telling. Assuming it isn't all completely made up...

He's still a tosser .
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:26 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
I don't think we're actually disagreeing on much - you just fall slightly more on one side of the charitable line than I do.
I'd rather just err on that side, that's all.

Quote:
As Nessie and I have said (whilst disagreeing on some aspects), given the time passed and the tendency of people to elaborate stories (especially actors?) I doubt it's worth forensically analyzing his story - especially the bits after the furore.

To be honest, I doubt he even armed himself and walked the streets, especially for a week. He probably just thought about it and it's grown in his memory / the telling. Assuming it isn't all completely made up...
Right. It's not worth much analysing something that may have been altered over and over since the events; assuming they occured at all.

Quote:
He's still a tosser .
Some of his movies are pretty good. I have no issue with him, one way or another.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:30 AM   #317
Porpoise of Life
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I've already done that, actually. There's no reason to assume that had Neeson's friend had said "white, but with a cockney accent" he wouldn't have had the same reaction. It wasn't specifically about race, but latching onto any recogniseable characteristic to channel one's rage. Maybe I'm being overly charitable here, but assuming that it must be because Neeson was and is a racist is unwarranted, hence my pitchfork comment.
I get where you're coming from. I also don't think he was looking to punish 'the black race' for some kind of shared racial responsibility for the rape. In fact I don't think he was thinking much at all.
But I'd also say that being ready to attack a random stranger who shares a characteristic with a bad person is by definition an example of bias, even if there's no underlying ideology.
It just so happens that the bias turned out to be racial in this instance. Does not make him a racist, just an idiot who was thinking about doing something racist. I suppose I kind of get how you think that dilutes the meaning of racism...

And yes, I do think that if the situation had been different, and he'd been looking for a German/English/ginger/fat bastard to pick a fight, there wouldn't have been an outcry like this.


Racial tensions in the US make this particular version of events stand out more.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Some of his movies are pretty good. I have no issue with him, one way or another.
I'm a Toydarian, mind tricks don't work on me.

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Old 7th February 2019, 06:43 AM   #318
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
But I'd also say that being ready to attack a random stranger who shares a characteristic with a bad person is by definition an example of bias, even if there's no underlying ideology.
Yes, I think that's fair.

Quote:
It just so happens that the bias turned out to be racial in this instance. Does not make him a racist, just an idiot who was thinking about doing something racist. I suppose I kind of get how you think that dilutes the meaning of racism...
My main issue with meanings like this, and I guess this could be a thread by itself, is that while a word having different definitions depending on context is easy to understand, a word having different definitions in the same context can only be confusing.

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Credits will do fine.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:43 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Come on, who here has a pitchfork? Every response of those who say it was racist here has been along the lines of 'hoping a random black man gives you a reason to attack him because another black man has committed a crime and you want revenge is racist. This does not mean Neeson thinks all black people are bad, and his irrationality can probably be chalked up to how traumatizing it is to hear a loved one was raped'.
Nobody here is fuming with self-righteous anger, ready to condemn him as irredeemably evil, or looking for an excuse to brand everything involving people of different races as racist.

Perhaps you could explain why it might not be racist to want to hurt a random person of the same race as a rapist?
Yes, his motives were racist, superficial bigotry, ethnic hatred.

Yes, pitchforks metaphors for the discussion in this thread is a bit melodramatic.

But also no, not every response is full of enlightened rationalism, and trying to push that narrative just reeks of partisan blinders.

Outside this thread, however, I barely ever see a mention of the context and framing he put it in. The few attempts I've seen to do so make it clear why one "shouldn't" wade into the fray and make that "mistake." Really most attempts at nuance or clarity or some kind of useful takeaway get mild reception for a moment and then "yeah but..." and it's right back to who can craft the best zingers.

I thought there'd be a gold mind of opportunity to unpack some things (touched on in this thread) about tribalist thought patterns, maybe some insight into intervention strategies, "mindfulness" type behavioral therapy ideas.

You know...solutions.

It's sad that the typical (anecdotal) response to an issue that is rooted in part in human tendency to superficially sort and group by superficially sorting and grouping this into the "FIRE EVERYTHING!" bucket.
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:03 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
I'm not calling for his ruin - and I haven't seen many people in this thread explicitly doing so either..
in this thread, not much. On CNN, yes. I think that's what qayak was getting at. I think delphic Oracle had some good insight as to why that's unfortunate.
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