Liam Neeson's Racist Revenge Plan - Page 9

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

He did not say he was looking for a black man to kill.

He said "I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him".

There was more than just the colour of the skin involved. Neeson was looking for a fight and non aggressive people who did not threaten him were not at risk.

He was looking for a black man to kill, then.

Nessie · 7th February 2019, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

He was looking for a black man to kill, then.

Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one.

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one.

Taken 4: “I have a very particular set of skills and a very particular target who can be any colour you like, as long as he’s a black bastard!”

The character really would be considered racist or certainly the action racist. There’s not really any way you can dress it up.

Information Analyst · 7th February 2019, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Not really, because Bronson went after the gangs who were terrorising NY subways.

No, he went after muggers and street criminals in general. There is a subway scene in the film, but just the one.

Ron_Tomkins · 7th February 2019, 08:15 AM

Well, one thing's for sure: This incident was well used as a motivation to perform an effective line for his character, to the point that it has become famous and iconic all over the world. Everyone knows Neeson for his "I have a special set of skills" line. It shows that it was really convincing, and that's because he borrowed from a real experience. One where he didn't actually hurt anyone, and which he also used to meditate on his actions and learn that he was acting like a douche.

I see nothing but wins here.

Nessie · 7th February 2019, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Taken 4: “I have a very particular set of skills and a very particular target who can be any colour you like, as long as he’s a black bastard!”

The character really would be considered racist or certainly the action racist. There’s not really any way you can dress it up.

I am reporting all he said, not just one bit about colour.

baron · 7th February 2019, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

I am reporting all he said, not just one bit about colour.

I'm not sure a yellow card can be levied against a non-member.

Porpoise of Life · 7th February 2019, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one.

I took it as him looking for any black man who might confront him, not the specific black man who raped his friend.

Thermal · 7th February 2019, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by baron

I'm not sure a yellow card can be levied against a non-member.

Well, Neeson has surely been red-carded.

qayak · 7th February 2019, 11:21 AM

I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational.

That is the epitome of delusion.

Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state.

And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc.

Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.

Vixen · 7th February 2019, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

To be fair, if she had told him "white", it isn't likely he would have gone out looking for white guys to beat on. There would have to be some identifiable trait that the perp had, but which Neeson didn't share, something that made him unmistakably part of "THEM", and then he goes after one of "THEM".

It's not admirable. That's the point. It made him realize just how irrational it was, and he grew from it. It doesn't make me think of him as an awesome fella, but he's still a good actor and he makes movies that are good, and people shouldn't be boycotted because they revealed some sort of bad behavior from their past. It's crazy. Everyone will be looking over their shoulder wondering who might find out that they once did something that they wouldn't do 20 years later.

He wouldn't have called them a 'white bastard' though, would he?

Whilst Neeson is contrite, he isn't about the racism. He puts his violent feelings down to a 'primeval urge', not racism.

Vixen · 7th February 2019, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html

What he said;

“There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,”

That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme.

"“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.”

I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped.

"“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person."

It is odd, considering the demographics of Ireland, especially them, he asked immediately about colour. I suspect faulty memory there.

“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody –"

He was not actually out to target a black person, there had to be an approach by that person, there needed to more than just being black.

"“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him.”

He is, from the outset making it clear he was wrong and he knows it. He also reiterates that it was not just looking for a black person, it was for a black person who had a go at him.

"It was horrible, horrible, when I think back, that I did that"....“It’s awful, but I did learn a lesson from it, when I eventually thought, ‘What the **** are you doing,’ you know?”

Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself.

So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way.

He's not really. He's looking for approval.

theprestige · 7th February 2019, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational.

That is the epitome of delusion.

Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state.

And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc.

Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.

Heh. I guess I can't really say that if I were giving that interview, I wouldn't stupidly volunteer some pants-on-head-retarded confession, and torpedo the promotional tour I'm supposed to be on.

Vixen · 7th February 2019, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

He did not say he was looking for a black man to kill.

He said "I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him".

There was more than just the colour of the skin involved. Neeson was looking for a fight and non aggressive people who did not threaten him were not at risk.

So it's justifiable to break the law - which he did by arming himself with an offensive weapon in a public place - by pleading 'primeval urge'?

'Er, M'Lud, the shop assistant was looking at me funny, so I 'ad this urge to nick 'is goods, innit? Awfully sorry, M'Lud, but it wasn't shoplifting, it was my primeval urge, innit, what I've got no control over.'

Vixen · 7th February 2019, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life

I get where you're coming from. I also don't think he was looking to punish 'the black race' for some kind of shared racial responsibility for the rape. In fact I don't think he was thinking much at all.
But I'd also say that being ready to attack a random stranger who shares a characteristic with a bad person is by definition an example of bias, even if there's no underlying ideology.
It just so happens that the bias turned out to be racial in this instance. Does not make him a racist, just an idiot who was thinking about doing something racist. I suppose I kind of get how you think that dilutes the meaning of racism...

And yes, I do think that if the situation had been different, and he'd been looking for a German/English/ginger/fat bastard to pick a fight, there wouldn't have been an outcry like this.

Racial tensions in the US make this particular version of events stand out more.

I'm a Toydarian, mind tricks don't work on me.

Maybe such a person wouldn't have stirred his 'primeval urges' as much as a 'black bastard' could.

Porpoise of Life · 7th February 2019, 12:45 PM

Here's some (black) guy giving us his opinion

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

applecorped · 7th February 2019, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life

Here's some (black) guy giving us his opinion

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Argumentum ad YouTubum

Porpoise of Life · 7th February 2019, 01:07 PM

What argument?

Vixen · 7th February 2019, 01:43 PM

All we need now is Gazza to weigh in.

Nessie · 7th February 2019, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

So it's justifiable to break the law - which he did by arming himself with an offensive weapon in a public place - by pleading 'primeval urge'?

'Er, M'Lud, the shop assistant was looking at me funny, so I 'ad this urge to nick 'is goods, innit? Awfully sorry, M'Lud, but it wasn't shoplifting, it was my primeval urge, innit, what I've got no control over.'

No one is defending what he did, including him.

Nessie · 7th February 2019, 01:46 PM

I think everyone agrees what he did was wrong. The disagreement is over how wrong it was and how much he should be condemned for it.

I say it was very stupid and since he admitted it was very stupid from the start, he should be subject to minimal condemnation.

Delphic Oracle · 7th February 2019, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

He wouldn't have called them a 'white bastard' though, would he?

Whilst Neeson is contrite, he isn't about the racism. He puts his violent feelings down to a 'primeval urge', not racism.

Right, I forgot those were mutually exclusive.

theprestige · 7th February 2019, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

I think everyone agrees what he did was wrong. The disagreement is over how wrong it was and how much he should be condemned for it.

I say it was very stupid and since he admitted it was very stupid from the start, he should be subject to minimal condemnation.

The only thing I'm condemning him for is needlessly inviting condemnation from SJWs.

mgidm86 · 7th February 2019, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html

What he said;

“There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,”

That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme.

"“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.”

I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped.

"“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person."

-- snip --

Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself.

So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way.

I admire his honesty. Too many people think humans should be infallible these days. We are just "advanced" animals trying our best to act civilized around each other.

Nobody is perfect, everyone has prejudice. It is in our DNA.

This pettiness just gets worse every day. What happened to tolerance? Even when someone is being introspective and honest they get the Outrage Machine after them.

Vixen · 7th February 2019, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

I admire his honesty. Too many people think humans should be infallible these days. We are just "advanced" animals trying our best to act civilized around each other.

Nobody is perfect, everyone has prejudice. It is in our DNA.

This pettiness just gets worse every day. What happened to tolerance? Even when someone is being introspective and honest they get the Outrage Machine after them.

Rii-ight. So we should have a let-it-all-hang-out hate fest of all the nasty horrible things we've ever thought, said or did.

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational.

That is the epitome of delusion.

Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state.

And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc.

Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.

I don’t know if anyone is saying how they would react in an emotional state let alone “everyone”.

I think we can all agree that Neeson was emotional and irrational and indeed that it is normal to be irrational in those circumstances. No argument from me on that score.

I think most of us would also agree that racism is irrational (except Skeptic Tank).

But it is racist to go looking for an innocent black man to kill in revenge for a crime he didn’t commit if the specific reason for killing him is the colour of his skin. That seems pretty unequivocal to me despite all the mental gymnastics about how he might have killed a Lithuanian...

Does it mean he himself is currently racist? I think, no.
Does it mean he used to be some kind of full-on racist? I think, no, it doesn’t mean that.
Does it mean he should be pilloried and blacklisted... er, I mean refused work on the basis of his comments? I think it need not, but I also wouldn’t blame a production company that said, “yeah, let’s NOT hire Liam Neeson for our next film.”
Does it mean I know exactly how I would react in a similar situation? No.
Am I purer than the driven snow? No.
Have I ever thought, said and done racist things? Yes. We all have.

qayak · 7th February 2019, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

But it is racist to go looking for an innocent black man to kill in revenge for a crime he didn’t commit if the specific reason for killing him is the colour of his skin.

I disagree. He wasn't going to kill him because he was black but because he was a violent rapist. If the person had been a violent, East Indian rapist, Neeson would have went after a violent East Indian not a black person.He didn't hate the guy, or even judge him, based on his skin colour. He judged the person based on their being a violent rapist.

That's not racism.

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

I disagree. He wasn't going to kill him because he was black but because he was a violent rapist. If the person had been a violent, East Indian rapist, Neeson would have went after a violent East Indian not a black person.He didn't hate the guy, or even judge him, based on his skin colour. He judged the person based on their being a violent rapist.

That's not racism.

Huh!? No, you clearly misunderstand. He wasn’t looking for the rapist. He was looking for someone who was the same colour as the rapist. That’s all and that’s racism.

qayak · 7th February 2019, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Huh!? No, you clearly misunderstand. He wasn’t looking for the rapist. He was looking for someone who was the same colour as the rapist. That’s all and that’s racism.

He wasn't looking for him because he was black. He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.

Belz... · 7th February 2019, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.

That kinda sounds contradictory.

qayak · 7th February 2019, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

That kinda sounds contradictory.

How so? If he was killing someone because they were black any black person would do. He wanted to kill someone because they were violent not because of their skin colour.

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

He wasn't looking for him because he was black. He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.

He was looking for a black man - not a black rapist! - and the reason why he was looking for a black man was because a black man raped his friend. It was immaterial for him whether the hypothetical black man he killed was a rapist. His criteria for killing was “black bastard” not “violent rapist”.

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

How so? If he was killing someone because they were black any black person would do. He wanted to kill someone because they were violent not because of their skin colour.

No, not “because they were violent”. He wanted to get into a confrontation with a black man and it was important that they were black.

qayak · 7th February 2019, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

No, not “because they were violent”. He wanted to get into a confrontation with a black man and it was important that they were black.

No, they had to be violent. He was very clear they had to "come at him." Race was secondary. If it was primary, any black man would have satisfied him.

qayak · 7th February 2019, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

He was looking for a black man - not a black rapist! - and the reason why he was looking for a black man was because a black man raped his friend. It was immaterial for him whether the hypothetical black man he killed was a rapist. His criteria for killing was “black bastard” not “violent rapist”.

Black bastard =/= black man.

bas·tard
noun
1. INFORMAL, an unpleasant or despicable person.
"he lied to me, the bastard!"

synonyms: scoundrel, villain, rogue, rascal, brute, animal, weasel, snake, monster, ogre, wretch, devil, good-for-nothing, reprobate, wrongdoer, evil-doer;

Delphic Oracle · 7th February 2019, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Rii-ight. So we should have a let-it-all-hang-out hate fest of all the nasty horrible things we've ever thought, said or did.

Rule of so...

Why must an appeal to using the opportunity for more than just ridicule and condemnation mean that anyone wants to celebrate bad behavior?

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Black bastard =/= black man.

bas·tard
noun
1. INFORMAL, an unpleasant or despicable person.
"he lied to me, the bastard!"

synonyms: scoundrel, villain, rogue, rascal, brute, animal, weasel, snake, monster, ogre, wretch, devil, good-for-nothing, reprobate, wrongdoer, evil-doer;

This is very desperate. Or maybe he was looking for an illegitimate black man, right?

angrysoba · 7th February 2019, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

No, they had to be violent. He was very clear they had to "come at him." Race was secondary. If it was primary, any black man would have satisfied him.

Race was not secondary.

Meadmaker · 7th February 2019, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

No, they had to be violent. He was very clear they had to "come at him." Race was secondary. If it was primary, any black man would have satisfied him.

I get the feeling that it more of a vigilante style behavior than anything else. He went out as "bait", hoping that a street thug would give him an excuse to pop someone with a crowbar. Oh, and by the way, he expected the person who would attack him to be black, just like the one who raped his friend, and just like an awful lot of street criminals in those days.

I remember the '70s, '80s, and early '90s. Crime was going up, up, up. People didn't feel safe, and for very good reason, and especially "urban youth", i.e. black teenagers, were pretty darned scary. Jesse Jackson famously once said he was frightened when being followed by young black people. I guess Jesse was racist? I'm pretty sure this is the era that Liam Neeson is talking about.

I remember Bernard Goetz, the "subway vigilante". Just in case there are youngsters in the audience, he was on the New York City subway when he was approached by four black youths. He shot them. No one was killed, but one of them was paralyzed. There was a lot of debate about whether or not he was just racist. He was acquitted. The jury bought his reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm self defense argument, because they would have been afraid, too. And it turned out that one of the youths who was shot later admitted that they were, in fact, planning on mugging him.

By coincidence, as that trial was raging, I was briefly held hostage by two armed robbers who were robbing the Wendy's that my girlfriend and I were eating in. I remember thinking that I was glad Bernard Goetz wasn't there, because he might miss, and that would be bad. A couple of weeks later, we were telling the story to a friend's father and he asked, trying to sound casual, "Couple of white guys?" We knew what he meant, and we informed him that no, they were in fact African Americans.

So, that's the environment Neeson was in. At least in the US, it was an era where we were all afraid on the streets, and street crime was disproportionately committed by blacks, and then his friend or relative got raped by a black man. I think it set him off, and he picked up a crowbar, and hit the streets hoping that someone would "make his day."

ETA: And I don't plan on seeing this movie, but I might some day, and his brief encounter with blind rage, lust for revenge, and some element of racism will make no difference to me at all. It was a long time ago, and he got over it, so that has nothing to do with why I won't see the movie. Oh, and, by the way, the characters on the screen are just being played by actors. They aren't really the people portrayed in the movie. The reason I don't plan on seeing the movie is that I seriously doubt it could be as good as "Taken", so I would expect that it would just feel like a disappointing sequel.

qayak · 7th February 2019, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

This is very desperate. Or maybe he was looking for an illegitimate black man, right?

In your view then, rapists aren't "bastards" they are "black men."

Each to their own, I guess.

7th February 2019, 07:07 AM	#321
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by Nessie He did not say he was looking for a black man to kill. He said "I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him". There was more than just the colour of the skin involved. Neeson was looking for a fight and non aggressive people who did not threaten him were not at risk. He was looking for a black man to kill, then.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

7th February 2019, 07:16 AM	#322
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,602	Originally Posted by angrysoba He was looking for a black man to kill, then. Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

7th February 2019, 08:08 AM	#323
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by Nessie Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one. Taken 4: “I have a very particular set of skills and a very particular target who can be any colour you like, as long as he’s a black bastard!” The character really would be considered racist or certainly the action racist. There’s not really any way you can dress it up.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

7th February 2019, 08:15 AM	#325
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 43,339	Well, one thing's for sure: This incident was well used as a motivation to perform an effective line for his character, to the point that it has become famous and iconic all over the world. Everyone knows Neeson for his "I have a special set of skills" line. It shows that it was really convincing, and that's because he borrowed from a real experience. One where he didn't actually hurt anyone, and which he also used to meditate on his actions and learn that he was acting like a douche. I see nothing but wins here.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

7th February 2019, 08:27 AM	#326
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,602	Originally Posted by angrysoba Taken 4: “I have a very particular set of skills and a very particular target who can be any colour you like, as long as he’s a black bastard!” The character really would be considered racist or certainly the action racist. There’s not really any way you can dress it up. I am reporting all he said, not just one bit about colour.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

7th February 2019, 08:09 AM	#324
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,822	Originally Posted by Vixen Not really, because Bronson went after the gangs who were terrorising NY subways. No, he went after muggers and street criminals in general. There is a subway scene in the film, but just the one.

7th February 2019, 08:36 AM	#327
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by Nessie I am reporting all he said, not just one bit about colour. I'm not sure a yellow card can be levied against a non-member.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,427	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

7th February 2019, 08:42 AM	#328
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,740	Originally Posted by Nessie Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one. I took it as him looking for any black man who might confront him, not the specific black man who raped his friend.

7th February 2019, 08:45 AM	#329
Thermal Philosopher Pither Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either Posts: 6,487	Originally Posted by baron I'm not sure a yellow card can be levied against a non-member. Well, Neeson has surely been red-carded.
	__________________ "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

7th February 2019, 11:21 AM	#330
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,235	I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational. That is the epitome of delusion. Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state. And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc. Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

7th February 2019, 11:56 AM	#331
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by Meadmaker To be fair, if she had told him "white", it isn't likely he would have gone out looking for white guys to beat on. There would have to be some identifiable trait that the perp had, but which Neeson didn't share, something that made him unmistakably part of "THEM", and then he goes after one of "THEM". It's not admirable. That's the point. It made him realize just how irrational it was, and he grew from it. It doesn't make me think of him as an awesome fella, but he's still a good actor and he makes movies that are good, and people shouldn't be boycotted because they revealed some sort of bad behavior from their past. It's crazy. Everyone will be looking over their shoulder wondering who might find out that they once did something that they wouldn't do 20 years later. He wouldn't have called them a 'white bastard' though, would he? Whilst Neeson is contrite, he isn't about the racism. He puts his violent feelings down to a 'primeval urge', not racism.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

7th February 2019, 12:00 PM	#332
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by Nessie https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html What he said; “There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,” That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme. "“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.” I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped. "“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person." It is odd, considering the demographics of Ireland, especially them, he asked immediately about colour. I suspect faulty memory there. “I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody –" He was not actually out to target a black person, there had to be an approach by that person, there needed to more than just being black. "“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him.” He is, from the outset making it clear he was wrong and he knows it. He also reiterates that it was not just looking for a black person, it was for a black person who had a go at him. "It was horrible, horrible, when I think back, that I did that"....“It’s awful, but I did learn a lesson from it, when I eventually thought, ‘What the **** are you doing,’ you know?” Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself. So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way. He's not really. He's looking for approval.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

7th February 2019, 12:03 PM	#333
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 31,732	Originally Posted by qayak I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational. That is the epitome of delusion. Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state. And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc. Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along. Heh. I guess I can't really say that if I were giving that interview, I wouldn't stupidly volunteer some pants-on-head-retarded confession, and torpedo the promotional tour I'm supposed to be on.

7th February 2019, 12:05 PM	#334
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by Nessie He did not say he was looking for a black man to kill. He said "I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him". There was more than just the colour of the skin involved. Neeson was looking for a fight and non aggressive people who did not threaten him were not at risk. So it's justifiable to break the law - which he did by arming himself with an offensive weapon in a public place - by pleading 'primeval urge'? 'Er, M'Lud, the shop assistant was looking at me funny, so I 'ad this urge to nick 'is goods, innit? Awfully sorry, M'Lud, but it wasn't shoplifting, it was my primeval urge, innit, what I've got no control over.'
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

7th February 2019, 12:10 PM	#335
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life I get where you're coming from. I also don't think he was looking to punish 'the black race' for some kind of shared racial responsibility for the rape. In fact I don't think he was thinking much at all. But I'd also say that being ready to attack a random stranger who shares a characteristic with a bad person is by definition an example of bias, even if there's no underlying ideology. It just so happens that the bias turned out to be racial in this instance. Does not make him a racist, just an idiot who was thinking about doing something racist. I suppose I kind of get how you think that dilutes the meaning of racism... And yes, I do think that if the situation had been different, and he'd been looking for a German/English/ginger/fat bastard to pick a fight, there wouldn't have been an outcry like this. Racial tensions in the US make this particular version of events stand out more. I'm a Toydarian, mind tricks don't work on me. Maybe such a person wouldn't have stirred his 'primeval urges' as much as a 'black bastard' could.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

7th February 2019, 01:07 PM	#338
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,740	What argument?

7th February 2019, 01:43 PM	#339
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	All we need now is Gazza to weigh in.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

7th February 2019, 01:44 PM	#340
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,602	Originally Posted by Vixen So it's justifiable to break the law - which he did by arming himself with an offensive weapon in a public place - by pleading 'primeval urge'? 'Er, M'Lud, the shop assistant was looking at me funny, so I 'ad this urge to nick 'is goods, innit? Awfully sorry, M'Lud, but it wasn't shoplifting, it was my primeval urge, innit, what I've got no control over.' No one is defending what he did, including him.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

7th February 2019, 01:46 PM	#341
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,602	I think everyone agrees what he did was wrong. The disagreement is over how wrong it was and how much he should be condemned for it. I say it was very stupid and since he admitted it was very stupid from the start, he should be subject to minimal condemnation.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

7th February 2019, 01:56 PM	#342
Delphic Oracle Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 2,775	Originally Posted by Vixen He wouldn't have called them a 'white bastard' though, would he? Whilst Neeson is contrite, he isn't about the racism. He puts his violent feelings down to a 'primeval urge', not racism. Right, I forgot those were mutually exclusive.

7th February 2019, 02:51 PM	#343
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 31,732	Originally Posted by Nessie I think everyone agrees what he did was wrong. The disagreement is over how wrong it was and how much he should be condemned for it. I say it was very stupid and since he admitted it was very stupid from the start, he should be subject to minimal condemnation. The only thing I'm condemning him for is needlessly inviting condemnation from SJWs.

7th February 2019, 03:12 PM	#344
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,066	Originally Posted by Nessie https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html What he said; “There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,” That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme. "“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.” I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped. "“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person." -- snip -- Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself. So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way. I admire his honesty. Too many people think humans should be infallible these days. We are just "advanced" animals trying our best to act civilized around each other. Nobody is perfect, everyone has prejudice. It is in our DNA. This pettiness just gets worse every day. What happened to tolerance? Even when someone is being introspective and honest they get the Outrage Machine after them.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,066	__________________ Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

7th February 2019, 04:32 PM	#345
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by mgidm86 I admire his honesty. Too many people think humans should be infallible these days. We are just "advanced" animals trying our best to act civilized around each other. Nobody is perfect, everyone has prejudice. It is in our DNA. This pettiness just gets worse every day. What happened to tolerance? Even when someone is being introspective and honest they get the Outrage Machine after them. Rii-ight. So we should have a let-it-all-hang-out hate fest of all the nasty horrible things we've ever thought, said or did.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

7th February 2019, 05:27 PM	#346
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by qayak I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational. That is the epitome of delusion. Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state. And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc. Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along. I don’t know if anyone is saying how they would react in an emotional state let alone “everyone”. I think we can all agree that Neeson was emotional and irrational and indeed that it is normal to be irrational in those circumstances. No argument from me on that score. I think most of us would also agree that racism is irrational (except Skeptic Tank). But it is racist to go looking for an innocent black man to kill in revenge for a crime he didn’t commit if the specific reason for killing him is the colour of his skin. That seems pretty unequivocal to me despite all the mental gymnastics about how he might have killed a Lithuanian... Does it mean he himself is currently racist? I think, no. Does it mean he used to be some kind of full-on racist? I think, no, it doesn’t mean that. Does it mean he should be pilloried and blacklisted... er, I mean refused work on the basis of his comments? I think it need not, but I also wouldn’t blame a production company that said, “yeah, let’s NOT hire Liam Neeson for our next film.” Does it mean I know exactly how I would react in a similar situation? No. Am I purer than the driven snow? No. Have I ever thought, said and done racist things? Yes. We all have.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

7th February 2019, 05:51 PM	#347
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,235	Originally Posted by angrysoba But it is racist to go looking for an innocent black man to kill in revenge for a crime he didn’t commit if the specific reason for killing him is the colour of his skin. I disagree. He wasn't going to kill him because he was black but because he was a violent rapist. If the person had been a violent, East Indian rapist, Neeson would have went after a violent East Indian not a black person.He didn't hate the guy, or even judge him, based on his skin colour. He judged the person based on their being a violent rapist. That's not racism.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

7th February 2019, 06:03 PM	#348
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by qayak I disagree. He wasn't going to kill him because he was black but because he was a violent rapist. If the person had been a violent, East Indian rapist, Neeson would have went after a violent East Indian not a black person.He didn't hate the guy, or even judge him, based on his skin colour. He judged the person based on their being a violent rapist. That's not racism. Huh!? No, you clearly misunderstand. He wasn’t looking for the rapist. He was looking for someone who was the same colour as the rapist. That’s all and that’s racism.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

7th February 2019, 06:21 PM	#349
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,235	Originally Posted by angrysoba Huh!? No, you clearly misunderstand. He wasn’t looking for the rapist. He was looking for someone who was the same colour as the rapist. That’s all and that’s racism. He wasn't looking for him because he was black. He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

7th February 2019, 06:25 PM	#350
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 78,650	Originally Posted by qayak He was looking for a black person but not because he was black. That kinda sounds contradictory.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

7th February 2019, 06:34 PM	#351
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,235	Originally Posted by Belz... That kinda sounds contradictory. How so? If he was killing someone because they were black any black person would do. He wanted to kill someone because they were violent not because of their skin colour.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

7th February 2019, 06:36 PM	#352
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by qayak He wasn't looking for him because he was black. He was looking for a black person but not because he was black. He was looking for a black man - not a black rapist! - and the reason why he was looking for a black man was because a black man raped his friend. It was immaterial for him whether the hypothetical black man he killed was a rapist. His criteria for killing was “black bastard” not “violent rapist”.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

7th February 2019, 06:40 PM	#353
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by qayak How so? If he was killing someone because they were black any black person would do. He wanted to kill someone because they were violent not because of their skin colour. No, not “because they were violent”. He wanted to get into a confrontation with a black man and it was important that they were black.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

7th February 2019, 06:45 PM	#354
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,235	Originally Posted by angrysoba No, not “because they were violent”. He wanted to get into a confrontation with a black man and it was important that they were black. No, they had to be violent. He was very clear they had to "come at him." Race was secondary. If it was primary, any black man would have satisfied him.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

7th February 2019, 06:50 PM	#355
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,235	Originally Posted by angrysoba He was looking for a black man - not a black rapist! - and the reason why he was looking for a black man was because a black man raped his friend. It was immaterial for him whether the hypothetical black man he killed was a rapist. His criteria for killing was “black bastard” not “violent rapist”. Black bastard =/= black man. bas·tard noun 1. INFORMAL, an unpleasant or despicable person. "he lied to me, the bastard!" synonyms: scoundrel, villain, rogue, rascal, brute, animal, weasel, snake, monster, ogre, wretch, devil, good-for-nothing, reprobate, wrongdoer, evil-doer;
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

7th February 2019, 06:55 PM	#356
Delphic Oracle Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 2,775	Originally Posted by Vixen Rii-ight. So we should have a let-it-all-hang-out hate fest of all the nasty horrible things we've ever thought, said or did. Rule of so... Why must an appeal to using the opportunity for more than just ridicule and condemnation mean that anyone wants to celebrate bad behavior?

7th February 2019, 07:21 PM	#357
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by qayak Black bastard =/= black man. bas·tard noun 1. INFORMAL, an unpleasant or despicable person. "he lied to me, the bastard!" synonyms: scoundrel, villain, rogue, rascal, brute, animal, weasel, snake, monster, ogre, wretch, devil, good-for-nothing, reprobate, wrongdoer, evil-doer; This is very desperate. Or maybe he was looking for an illegitimate black man, right?
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)