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10th November 2019, 10:25 AM | #121 |
Penultimate Amazing
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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10th November 2019, 10:28 AM | #122 |
Penultimate Amazing
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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10th November 2019, 10:34 AM | #123 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I can remember when it was commonplace for people to use the word Oriental and would have denied it was the slightest bit offensive nor intended to be so. Yet, that term is no longer used because South East Asians have said they do not like it and people have taken it on board.
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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10th November 2019, 12:42 PM | #124 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th November 2019, 12:55 PM | #125 |
Penultimate Amazing
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10th November 2019, 01:45 PM | #126 |
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Why does it have to be negative? Why can't someone just guess wrong and be wrong? Oops! You're racist for wrongly guessing someone's race now? Or is racist just to try? If you're correct you are not racist? Maybe we should all be separated just to avoid hurting each others feelings. |
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Why bother? |
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10th November 2019, 07:08 PM | #127 |
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Quote:
Well, tell me if I am racist or not. I have been seeing my current GP monthly (ever since my last heart event) for about 8 years, and assumed either Pakistani, or perhaps, Bangladeshi. I never bothered to ask anyone. Anyway, last year she told me that she could not see me for a couple of months as she was going home to look after her ill mother - to Malaysia. She said she was following that up with a trip to Jerusalem, as she was also Christian, which I don't hold against her. I never asked because it was simply not important enough for me to find out, in fact it was/is not relevant. OK, I can't judge somebodies nationality from their looks, so I guess that does make me racist. Norm |
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Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain |
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10th November 2019, 07:21 PM | #128 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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10th November 2019, 08:24 PM | #129 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Correct. There is no fault with doing so.
Unless one makes value judgements on that sole basis. Then it is a fault. Correct. The mere observation that some random person appears to be of south east asian origin is verboten. That south east asian could be an american national, but clearly of south east asian origin. Somehow it is racist to observe a simple fact. It is only racist if one uses such a fact to discriminate. Then it becomes racist. Personally, I find it endlessly fascinating to listen to others of any stripe, be it race or nationality or orientation or any difference whatsoever. Accepting the validity of the "other" is the very start of growth. And thus we part company. I should have known you would promote segregation. Try to climb out of the 18th century thought for once. There is only one race, the human race. We are all in it together. Get over it. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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11th November 2019, 02:05 AM | #130 |
Penultimate Amazing
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All we have here is some people's opinion it is racist and others that it is not.
I think that one of the problems is that at times, opinion is being presented as fact, as if there is some sort of official ruling that some language is racist and other language is not. There is official, as in legal and commonly recognised standards over the use of some words to describe people, such as the "n" word. But calling someone Chinese because they look they could be from China or another eastern (not just South East) country has no official recognition that it is unacceptable. It was an official organisation, the police, who used that language and the police are generally pretty aware of racial issues. |
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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11th November 2019, 09:33 AM | #131 |
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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11th November 2019, 09:36 AM | #132 |
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Okay stepping back and answer the question in the broadest, most generic way I can.
Generally speaking it's not "wrong" to just acknowledge the facts that trends exist. Not every X is Y. But if I have a room of 50 Y I'm going to probably have a statistically higher percent of X. These are not incompatible statements. "Every X is always a Y, oh and I'm assigning a negative trait to X that I will now assign to all Ys" is where the problems start. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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11th November 2019, 10:00 AM | #133 |
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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11th November 2019, 10:30 AM | #134 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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11th November 2019, 10:35 AM | #135 |
Orthogonal Vector
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As long as you are not lumping the Irish in there too, then there will be trouble.
Seriously trying to distinguish race as some kind of category outside ethnicity is crazy, as race is such a social construct it has no independent meaning. I mean when did Italians really become white anyway? |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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11th November 2019, 10:36 AM | #136 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The MA forbids it, actually. Besides, it's really up to you to figure out for yourself. If you're not stereotyping people based on their appearance, great. If you are, but you don't consider such stereotyping to be racist, also great. I can tell you what I think about those things, but only you can say if you are racist or not.
Quote:
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11th November 2019, 10:44 AM | #137 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Cross racial blindness is a universal though, identifying individuals of other races you were not exposed to at a young age or have lots of experience with is hard universally.
See this and its links. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-race_effect |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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11th November 2019, 10:58 AM | #138 |
Orthogonal Vector
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I have fairly broad definitions of racism compared to many peoples explicitly narrow definitions to keep it limited to only the worst and often least influential forms. But I have a difficult time seeing how this stems from biases other than who are common victims of such trafficking.
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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11th November 2019, 10:59 AM | #139 |
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I think that if another person’s race/ethnicity/nationality is something one notices or cares about, that’s at least proto-racism. Maybe not straight-up racism but a necessary precursor to racism. One would would have to ask themselves, “why is that important to me?”
Now from a law enforcement perspective, it might be necessary to know the nationality of someone in order to investigate something or enforce the law. A truck full of dead Asian people? Yeah, you might want to determine where they are from. An initial presumption that they are Chinese nationals wouldn’t necessarily be racist in that context, especially if there was a spate of this kind of thing. |
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11th November 2019, 11:05 AM | #140 |
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Usually because they are the ones telling me it's important to them.
(G)I can't be the bad guy, or some state of proto-bad guy, for acknowledging something that I wasn't that one brought it up. (G)I can't acknowledge your... *random example pulled out of thin air* pride in your Irish heritage and at the same time not only not notice but somehow stay metaphysically unaware of the very fact you are Irish. We can't celebrate our difference and not acknowledge they exist at the same time. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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11th November 2019, 01:28 PM | #141 |
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I'm trying to get at something more fundamental. What you are describing is more about when you are getting to know someone. What I am talking about is more along the lines of first impressions. If, upon encountering someone you don't know, one of your first questions about them is "what is their race/nationality/ethnicity," that's what I would consider to be "proto-racist."
Once you've (generally) met someone and you find out she's really proud of being Irish, that's a different thing. It would be weird not to acknowledge her Irish pride. But even then . . . does finding out she's Irish change the way you perceive or feel about the person? If so, why? |
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11th November 2019, 01:50 PM | #142 |
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It doesn't. But, in recent years, if I don't take the "unique challenges that Irish people have faced and respect them" I'm wrong and need to "check my privilege."
I can't win if I treat a black person as a black person, but I can't win if I don't acknowledge the difficulties in being a black person. Can't win, can't lose, can't break even, can't quit the game. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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11th November 2019, 03:15 PM | #143 |
Penultimate Amazing
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When I did my psychology degree, current studies (then) showed that the first thing you notice about someone on meeting them as a stranger is (a) their sex and then (b) their ethnicity. Noticing someone's ethnicity is something everybody does. A thing is neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so. Other studies showed that people who grew up in a racist environment are particularly sensitive to 'race'. For example, for a white South African 'race' was the first thing they noticed about others and could often tell a person's 'race' at five paces. Not much different from Nazi Germans being able to 'spot the Jew' because of , well, just about any reason their fevered imaginations could come up with, so in that sense a 'racist' is more 'alert' if you like, to ethnicity.
It is not necessarily negative because when asked to rate pictures of varying 'races' subjects actually rated 'other' ethnicities as slightly more attractive than the norm, albeit in a limited study. |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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11th November 2019, 03:19 PM | #144 |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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11th November 2019, 03:59 PM | #145 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Wrong. That is not what I said. Misrepresenting me yet again.
What I said was that I could not distinguish one nationality from the other, not that "they all look the same to me". I cannot fathom what level of obtuseness you apparently choose to cling to, but I will make it as simple as I can. Two SE asians are introduced to me. Let's call them Jim and Bob. With me so far? Or is it already too difficult for you. I have no problem distinguishing Jim from Bob as individuals because, well, they are unique individuals. Following along so far? I don't want to rush you. I am provided with the following data point. One is, say, Korean and the other is Japanese. Can I determine which is which? And the honest answer is no, because I have not the cultural cues that might allow me to make such a determination. But they do. This is nothing more than a lack of necessary background data. I simply don't have the information to determine if Bob is Japanese and Jim Korean or vice versa. But Bob and Jim are still unique individuals, I simply cannot determine their exact nationality because I have no means to do so. Somehow, you have purloined this simple absence of criteria into the frankly outrageous claim that I have stated that "they all look the same to me". I am sorely tried to understand why such a simple idea completely evades you. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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11th November 2019, 04:01 PM | #146 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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13th November 2019, 01:19 PM | #147 | ||
Winking at the Moon
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Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
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