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Old 4th December 2019, 06:53 PM   #121
psionl0
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I have expended great effort in sharing my personal lived experience as a member of a Pentecostal church. It's not my "understanding", it's my experience.

But you're right. Most churchgoers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life. Pentecostals do. They're unusual like that.
I was just pointing out that if you preface something with "my understanding", you could make up any plausible statement and present it as fact.

You need to stop presenting yourself as an authority on Pentecostalism just because you were a member for some time. I have also seen quite a few Pentecostal services (for reasons I will not go into here) and their main claim is that if the pastor prays over you, you will be possessed by the Holy Spirit, collapse and start speaking in "tongues".

Their teachings may be a little more fundamentalist than most (they teach YEC for example) but they certainly don't advocate stoning adulterers or standing in street corners and condemning everybody to hell. Their teachings about how one should live their life are not radically different to those found in more main stream churches.

As to how individual Pentecostals live their lives outside of the church setting, that's speculation.
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Old 4th December 2019, 08:16 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You need to stop presenting yourself as an authority on Pentecostalism just because you were a member for some time. I have also seen quite a few Pentecostal services (for reasons I will not go into here) and their main claim is that if the pastor prays over you, you will be possessed by the Holy Spirit, collapse and start speaking in "tongues".
No, that is not their main claim in my experience. Their main claim is that God and Jesus play an active part in your life, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are manifestations of that part.

You may have attended some services - that much I do not dispute. But you clearly did not attend as a believer as I did. I spoke in tongues, and I was a part of the church community, attending Bible study groups amongst other things, for many months. I'm as much of an authority on the church as anyone here is.
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Old 4th December 2019, 08:38 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And the post your were responding to was in response to the claim that Margaret Courts acts (or preaches) according to her beliefs therefore Scott Morrison does. Hence my confusion.

Even so, this "sex with 9 year olds" analogy is still ridiculous. You should know that the bible is full of contradictory passages. Atheists here have even quoted passages that say there is no god. Many people pick and choose which which passages they want to believe or leave that up to their pastor.

Any similarity between Margaret Court's beliefs and those of a child molester are coincidental.
The parallel is obvious - Margaret Court defends her opinion on the authority of a holy book just as the person who wants to have sex with a nine-year old.

I never suggested that Margaret Court was like a child molester, but I expect you knew that already.
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:47 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The parallel is obvious ridiculous - Margaret Court defends her opinion on the authority of a holy book just as the person who wants to have sex with a nine-year old.
ftfy

The only thing in common is that they both seek out passages in the bible that support their POV. The difference is that the child molester is most likely seeking to justify their behaviour while Margaret Court (I believe) truly believes what she is preaching.
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Old 4th December 2019, 10:45 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy

The only thing in common is that they both seek out passages in the bible that support their POV. The difference is that the child molester is most likely seeking to justify their behaviour while Margaret Court (I believe) truly believes what she is preaching.
Christians have ALWAYS sought out scripture passages to justify the social values of the day. Slavery was justified for centuries based on biblical passages, e.g. Ephesians 6:5. So was the subjugation of women, e.g. 1 Timothy 2:9–15. And much else.
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Old 4th December 2019, 10:45 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy



The only thing in common is that they both seek out passages in the bible that support their POV. The difference is that the child molester is most likely seeking to justify their behaviour while Margaret Court (I believe) truly believes what she is preaching.
Your distinction rests on your belief that Court's opinion is not motivated by any kind of prejudice, but rather a sincere belief that the things she cherry picks from the Bible represent the genuine will of God and that all the stuff she cheerfully ignored is not.

It also rests upon your assumption that the man who wishes to marry a nime-year old girl does not have a sincere belief that Allah smiles on such unions.

Just because you assume these things does not make them true.

So you still haven't shown a valid distinction between the cases.
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Old 4th December 2019, 10:58 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, that is not their main claim in my experience. Their main claim is that God and Jesus play an active part in your life, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are manifestations of that part.
WOW! What a radical concept! It's as if the Pentecostals belonged to a church or something.
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Old 4th December 2019, 11:03 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
WOW! What a radical concept! It's as if the Pentecostals belonged to a church or something.
My apologies - I should have said a continuous and ongoing active part in all aspects of your life.

I was taught in this church, as I have said before, that every act that was not a direct act of worship of God was a direct act of worship of Satan. I drove my car for God's glory. I ate my dinner for God's glory. I went to the toilet for God's glory. And in return, God gave me direct rewards.

That's the theory, at least. The only "rewards" I remember were getting better at playing the trombone, and having a few traffic lights turn green at opportune times. Praise Jesus!
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Old 5th December 2019, 12:27 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My apologies - I should have said a continuous and ongoing active part in all aspects of your life.
That still doesn't sound like a unique teaching to me. I haven't seen all the churches so maybe there are some sects that teach that God is just an incidental part of your life. OTOH in the teachings I have seen, the churches urge their followers to make God the centre of your life.

I don't see anything particularly malevolent in this teaching. Those people who go around harassing "sinners" are not doing so at the behest of the Pentecostal or main stream churches.

Evangelism is something different to harassment and opining about the teachings in the bible is something different again.
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Old 5th December 2019, 01:16 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That still doesn't sound like a unique teaching to me. I haven't seen all the churches so maybe there are some sects that teach that God is just an incidental part of your life. OTOH in the teachings I have seen, the churches urge their followers to make God the centre of your life.

I don't see anything particularly malevolent in this teaching. Those people who go around harassing "sinners" are not doing so at the behest of the Pentecostal or main stream churches.

Evangelism is something different to harassment and opining about the teachings in the bible is something different again.

This is getting pathetic psion! It is quite evident to me and I am sure many others that arth has you well on the back foot. Time to concede this and move on.
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Old 5th December 2019, 02:27 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is getting pathetic psion! It is quite evident to me and I am sure many others that arth has you well on the back foot. Time to concede this and move on.
How would you know? All you understand is the names of the posters.
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Old 5th December 2019, 04:11 PM   #132
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I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:52 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That still doesn't sound like a unique teaching to me. I haven't seen all the churches so maybe there are some sects that teach that God is just an incidental part of your life. OTOH in the teachings I have seen, the churches urge their followers to make God the centre of your life.
The problem with this “make God the center of your life” trope, is that different Christians have different understandings of what this means. And the various denomination “know" that the other denominations have got it wrong.
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Old 7th December 2019, 08:23 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
The problem with this “make God the center of your life” trope, is that different Christians have different understandings of what this means. And the various denomination “know" that the other denominations have got it wrong.
Of course.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:09 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
The problem with this “make God the center of your life” trope, is that different Christians have different understandings of what this means. And the various denomination “know" that the other denominations have got it wrong.

I really don't see the relevance.

Personally I believe the number of gods is the same as the number of believers in them, because the only place the god or gods exist is in their heads. This doesn't change the fact that some make that belief the cornerstone of their life. This being the problem.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:13 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course.

Of course?

Of course what?

Not just hitching yourself to this to divert attention from the penetrating cross examination, you have been subjected to by arth and myself are you?
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:16 PM   #137
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I've posted this before. It seems relevant to post it again.

http://theconversation.com/five-aspe...olitics-117511
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:17 PM   #138
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I've posted this before. It seems relevant to post it again.

http://theconversation.com/five-aspe...olitics-117511
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Old 8th December 2019, 10:07 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I really don't see the relevance.

Personally I believe the number of gods is the same as the number of believers in them, because the only place the god or gods exist is in their heads.
Yes. We both agree that there's no evidence of any of the gods having existed outside of the minds of our species.

Quote:
This doesn't change the fact that some make that belief the cornerstone of their life. This being the problem.
It is the conflicts between the differing faith “cornerstones” that causes the problems. Not only is there conflict between secular society and the ‘faithful’. But there is ongoing conflict between the different brands of “the faithful” as well - especially over social issues.
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've posted this before. It seems relevant to post it again.

http://theconversation.com/five-aspe...olitics-117511
And it is relevant again to point out that this is nothing but an opinion piece that just happens to coincide with your POV.

No matter how megative a spin you try to put on the Pentecostals, there is ZERO evidence that it makes ScoMo more dangerous than any other conservative. In fact, considering that his views on those on welfare coincide with those of other conservatives, I would question if he was taking all of their teachings to heart.
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Old Yesterday, 06:56 PM   #141
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And it is relevant again to . . . . . . . (nvm)
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Old Yesterday, 06:57 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Of course?

Of course what?

Not just hitching yourself to this to divert attention from the penetrating cross examination, you have been subjected to by arth and myself are you?
"penetrating"? You have yet to get anywhere near the surface!
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Old Yesterday, 08:48 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In fact, considering that his views on those on welfare coincide with those of other conservatives, I would question if he was taking all of their teachings to heart.
Well given that not everybody in his party is Pentecostal, I'd say that his actions on welfare coincide with those of his party. Unlike you, I don't claim to know what his views are. If I were to speculate, I would say that if given free reign, he would be quite a bit harder on welfare than he is. But that is nothing but pure imagination as all I have to go on are his actions.
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Old Yesterday, 10:45 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well given that not everybody in his party is Pentecostal, I'd say that his actions on welfare coincide with those of his party. Unlike you, I don't claim to know what his views are. If I were to speculate, I would say that if given free reign, he would be quite a bit harder on welfare than he is. But that is nothing but pure imagination as all I have to go on are his actions.
While it is slightly ironic that you would correct me on my choice of words (actions vs views) you are not wrong.
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Old Today, 10:59 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And it is relevant again to point out that this is nothing but an opinion piece that just happens to coincide with your POV.

No matter how megative a spin you try to put on the Pentecostals, there is ZERO evidence that it makes ScoMo more dangerous than any other conservative. In fact, considering that his views on those on welfare coincide with those of other conservatives, I would question if he was taking all of their teachings to heart.
In my view what makes him a bit more "dangerous" than your standard run-of-the-mill conservative is members of fundamentalist religions have a very strong belief that their god is "in control." From that follows a belief that in the end God will fix things. Global warming? Don't worry, either Jesus will return before things get too bad or God will just take care of it. Wars and rumours of war? That's just God getting ready to save the earth.

It can be a wonderful excuse not to do anything while the world about you is spinning out of control.
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