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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:21 AM   #161
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not that it matters, but I don't see any posts by you in the referenced thread?
I missed that you were posting about another thread in this thread.
My apologies.
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Old 23rd October 2021, 03:43 AM   #162
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This thread is weird.

Warp12 says he doesn't believe in the paranormal.

He says he had an experience that he doesn't understand, and doesn't know what to conclude from that, but doesn't think was paranormal. Darat responds (paraphrasing): "Wrong, you had an experience, but your conclusions about it are wrong". Well, he didn't make any conclusions.

When he points out that he doesn't think it was paranormal or significant, people ask him "well, why bring it up then?". Oddly, he explained why in the post where he brought it up: people have experiences that they can't explain, but when they mention those experiences here they are attacked as though they were claiming them as evidence of the paranormal.

His only point was that people should be able to talk about those experiences in a neutral way: "I had this experience, but I don't know what happened, I'd be interested in an explanation that makes sense to me". His claim is that those people are treated as insincere.

I don't know, maybe they generally are insincere. But it seems crazy to think that Warp12 is being insincere here. And his response to his particular experience "I don't know what happened" seems entirely reasonable to me. He can't explain it. Maybe some of the explanations offered here are accurate, maybe not. No one thinks it was paranormal.

But again, why did he bring it up if he didn't think it was paranormal? As an example of how people who relate their experiences are attacked for that. And that seems to be exactly what happened.

ETA: I only opened this thread because I was hoping it was Star Trek related
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Old 23rd October 2021, 04:38 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
This thread is weird.

Warp12 says he doesn't believe in the paranormal.

He says he had an experience that he doesn't understand, and doesn't know what to conclude from that, but doesn't think was paranormal. Darat responds (paraphrasing): "Wrong, you had an experience, but your conclusions about it are wrong". Well, he didn't make any conclusions....snip
Your summary is way out - read the first page at least! You will see me in violent agreement with Warp12 i.e. I accept people have these "experiences".

However he did make a conclusion in his relating of his experience - his exact words were:

"If I told you that I felt the footsteps of a pet across my bed, when the pet wasn't in the room, would you say that I was insincere?"

Note there is no "felt something like the footsteps", he states quite unequivocally that he felt the footsteps of a pet.

And that is the part I take issue with, I totally accept that he is telling the truth about experiencing something, however his clearly stated claim was not it felt like a pet's footsteps but it was a pet's footsteps. And that is the part I was trying to make clear, often the recounting of these experiences contain the conclusion the supernatural is involved.
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Old 23rd October 2021, 05:48 PM   #164
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/OT That reminds me of the TV show where the two guys drive around the country looking to buy other peoples trash so they can resale it. The short guy will pick something up and ask the owner "how much for something like this?" It bugs me. He doesn't want something like that, he wants that. But then I change the channel and move on with life.

OT/
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Old 23rd October 2021, 11:34 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your summary is way out - read the first page at least! You will see me in violent agreement with Warp12 i.e. I accept people have these "experiences".

However he did make a conclusion in his relating of his experience - his exact words were:

"If I told you that I felt the footsteps of a pet across my bed, when the pet wasn't in the room, would you say that I was insincere?"

Note there is no "felt something like the footsteps", he states quite unequivocally that he felt the footsteps of a pet.

And that is the part I take issue with, I totally accept that he is telling the truth about experiencing something, however his clearly stated claim was not it felt like a pet's footsteps but it was a pet's footsteps. And that is the part I was trying to make clear, often the recounting of these experiences contain the conclusion the supernatural is involved.
Cool, Darat, that makes much more sense. I honestly couldn't understand where you were coming from.

Personally I read "I felt the footsteps of a pet across my bed" as him saying he felt what he perceived as the footsteps of a pet across his bed, not that he was saying that he was actually feeling a pet moving across his bed, just that that's how he experienced it. But yeah, given your interpretation your reaction makes sense now.

Warp12, ddi you mean that there was actually a pet walking across your bed, or just that you experienced something that felt like that?
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Old 24th October 2021, 06:52 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Cool, Darat, that makes much more sense. I honestly couldn't understand where you were coming from.

Personally I read "I felt the footsteps of a pet across my bed" as him saying he felt what he perceived as the footsteps of a pet across his bed, not that he was saying that he was actually feeling a pet moving across his bed, just that that's how he experienced it. But yeah, given your interpretation your reaction makes sense now.

Warp12, ddi you mean that there was actually a pet walking across your bed, or just that you experienced something that felt like that?
I believe that everyone pretty much understood that I didn't mean there was a pet walking across my bed (ghostly or real). Considering that I made clear that: A) The pet wasn't in the room, and B) I didn't think there was anything paranormal going on...I don't know what else anyone could deduce?

I would be extremely surprised (shocked?) if Darat wasn't able to make this inference, as well.

Unfortunately, this kind of debate is where these threads often end up.
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Old 24th October 2021, 06:57 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
This thread is weird.

Warp12 says he doesn't believe in the paranormal.

He says he had an experience that he doesn't understand, and doesn't know what to conclude from that, but doesn't think was paranormal. Darat responds (paraphrasing): "Wrong, you had an experience, but your conclusions about it are wrong". Well, he didn't make any conclusions.

When he points out that he doesn't think it was paranormal or significant, people ask him "well, why bring it up then?". Oddly, he explained why in the post where he brought it up: people have experiences that they can't explain, but when they mention those experiences here they are attacked as though they were claiming them as evidence of the paranormal.

His only point was that people should be able to talk about those experiences in a neutral way: "I had this experience, but I don't know what happened, I'd be interested in an explanation that makes sense to me". His claim is that those people are treated as insincere.

I don't know, maybe they generally are insincere. But it seems crazy to think that Warp12 is being insincere here. And his response to his particular experience "I don't know what happened" seems entirely reasonable to me. He can't explain it. Maybe some of the explanations offered here are accurate, maybe not. No one thinks it was paranormal.

But again, why did he bring it up if he didn't think it was paranormal? As an example of how people who relate their experiences are attacked for that. And that seems to be exactly what happened.

ETA: I only opened this thread because I was hoping it was Star Trek related
I think you have made some valid observations. What you will notice, also...is that several people had no problem sharing similar experiences. They didn't feel the need to argue about the language used; they understood that I was describing a sensation that I experienced.

I too, now wish this thread had been Star Trek related.
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Old 26th October 2021, 04:35 AM   #168
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Thought of this thread yesterday morning. At ten to midnight on Sunday, I was wakened by a knock on my front door - it's an old stiff knocker that doesn't budge with the strongest wind and it has a loud knock, it made me jump out of bed. The bedroom window overlooks the front door so I shuffled to the window pulled the curtains aside and looked down to the doorstep - but there was no one there. I looked across the street and couldn't see anyone. Presumably some drunk or kid had knocked. I was rather pissed off and took a long time to go back to sleep.

What relevance does this have to this thread?

Look at how I describe my experience (and I've described it accurately as it happened not withholding any pertinent details), doesn't seem anything wrong with what I say? I'm not making any paranormal claim, not saying a ghost must have knocked on my door, so surely what I said happened as I recall it?

Well there is something wrong with what I recounted: I wasn't woken by a knock on the door.

In the morning when I got up, I walked to the bathroom and saw on teh landing that one of my large canvas prints had fallen off the wall. So I wasn't wakened by a knock on my door but by a noise that I then assumed the conclusion i.e. it was the door knocker. In this case I of course realised it was the falling canvas that woke me and despite what I initially thought it wasn't a knock on the door. If perhaps a canvas had fallen off in the spare room I might not have noticed it for a week or two and by then I'd remember being woken by a mysterious knock in the middle of the night and I couldn't see anyone, but I wouldn't realise that I hadn't in fact heard a knock.

It makes a good example of how we can recount events inaccurately with no intention to deceive. It's why when someone for instance says, "I heard footsteps but there was no one there" I will ask - "how do you know it was footsteps?" It can upset the person recounting the tale because they think I'm saying they are stupid, or lying or some other nefarious accusation, but all I am doing is pointing out that often things may not be what we have assumed they are, and often we don't even realise the assumptions we have made.
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Old 26th October 2021, 06:18 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thought of this thread yesterday morning. At ten to midnight on Sunday, I was wakened by a knock on my front door - it's an old stiff knocker that doesn't budge with the strongest wind and it has a loud knock, it made me jump out of bed. The bedroom window overlooks the front door so I shuffled to the window pulled the curtains aside and looked down to the doorstep - but there was no one there. I looked across the street and couldn't see anyone. Presumably some drunk or kid had knocked. I was rather pissed off and took a long time to go back to sleep.

What relevance does this have to this thread?

Look at how I describe my experience (and I've described it accurately as it happened not withholding any pertinent details), doesn't seem anything wrong with what I say? I'm not making any paranormal claim, not saying a ghost must have knocked on my door, so surely what I said happened as I recall it?

Well there is something wrong with what I recounted: I wasn't woken by a knock on the door.

In the morning when I got up, I walked to the bathroom and saw on teh landing that one of my large canvas prints had fallen off the wall. So I wasn't wakened by a knock on my door but by a noise that I then assumed the conclusion i.e. it was the door knocker. In this case I of course realised it was the falling canvas that woke me and despite what I initially thought it wasn't a knock on the door. If perhaps a canvas had fallen off in the spare room I might not have noticed it for a week or two and by then I'd remember being woken by a mysterious knock in the middle of the night and I couldn't see anyone, but I wouldn't realise that I hadn't in fact heard a knock.

It makes a good example of how we can recount events inaccurately with no intention to deceive. It's why when someone for instance says, "I heard footsteps but there was no one there" I will ask - "how do you know it was footsteps?" It can upset the person recounting the tale because they think I'm saying they are stupid, or lying or some other nefarious accusation, but all I am doing is pointing out that often things may not be what we have assumed they are, and often we don't even realise the assumptions we have made.
So, here is the difference between your story and mine:

I acknowledged that there was no cat, ghostly or otherwise....right off the bat. I then asked, "what might I have experienced?".

In your case, that would be like you saying, "I know nobody was knocking at the door, and there wasn't a ghost. What might I have heard?"

Nobody would need to argue about your choice of language; we would be able to easily infer that you were simply speaking in terms of a relatable experience.

Now, if you were insistent that it was indeed "knocking at your door", to the exclusion of any other explanation...then yes, saying, "I heard a knock at my door" would be problematic. But that sort of scenario is not at play, here.
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