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Old 18th December 2017, 03:12 PM   #2401
RoboTimbo
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't understand, there is no obligation with the no money system to give something in exchange to the guy making business with you.
One of these is not like the other.
Quote:
You do some work, go to the market and get something you need in exchange, others do the same. Money just make things more unjust and complicated.
Gaetan, can you see where your mistake is?
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Old 18th December 2017, 03:19 PM   #2402
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You do some work and the guy you received is not necessary the guy to who you give. understand? Exemple: i grow appels give it to the market, get a tv, maybe the guy who make the tv won't have my apple but he gets something in exchange from others he need.

Last edited by Gaetan; 18th December 2017 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 18th December 2017, 03:26 PM   #2403
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't understand, there is no obligation with the no money system to give something in exchange to the guy making business with you. You do some work, go to the market and get something you need in exchange, others do the same. Money just make things more unjust and complicated.
If there is no obligation, why do I need to do any work at all?

The real injustice is making all work valued the same. Right now it would take me about 15 minutes of work to generate the money I need to go to the movie theater. It would take my nephew about an hour. Our work is vastly different and correctly reflected in our pay. To elevate his wages to be equal to mine, without any effort or sacrifice that I've had to put in to get where I'm at would be the injustice.

This is what you are doing when you put the value of work at zero. The craftsman who puts in the effort to create a craft beer, is of the same value of the guy who bottles water. The artist who creates a painting at the same value of the blank canvass. Labor has value. Artistry has value. By removing that value, you are doing real harm to the world. Of course, these goods will still have extra value, requiring extra labor / resources, and without money the average person will not have the means to gain access to those goods. It will still gravitate to the 1%. It might be a different 1%, but it still we be a limited number of people who will have access to the good stuff since the people making the good stuff will want to be rewarded for their labor.
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Old 18th December 2017, 03:27 PM   #2404
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't understand, there is no obligation with the no money system to give something in exchange to the guy making business with you. You do some work, go to the market and get something you need in exchange, others do the same. Money just make things more unjust and complicated.
In exchange or not in exchange, that is the question. Make up your mind already.
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Old 18th December 2017, 03:34 PM   #2405
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You do some work and the guy you received is not necessary the guy to who you give. understand? Exemple: i grow appels give it to the market, get a tv, maybe the guy who make the tv won't have my apple but he gets something in exchange from others he need.
So money just makes it easier to keep track. That was why it developed. Good idea, I think we'll keep it.
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Old 18th December 2017, 03:41 PM   #2406
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Okay, without money we can all get stuff.

So, we are back to there being finite resources, which means somebody has to chose who has access to desirable items, which means we are back to the minority controlling a wealth of resources.

And Gaetan will fail to offer a solution in any detail... again.
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Old 18th December 2017, 03:42 PM   #2407
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't understand, there is no obligation with the no money system to give something in exchange to the guy making business with you. You do some work, go to the market and get something you need in exchange, others do the same. Money just make things more unjust and complicated.
There is no obligation in the money system. Nobody is forced to work for money.

Most of us gladly work for money because we then get paid and the money we get paid allows me to eat on a daily basis and to purchase other things which provide me and my family with comfort.

Money can also stored and invested so when I'm too old to work, I can retire and live off the money I have stored up.

Your no money system requires you to work until you are dead.
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:02 PM   #2408
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post

Your no money system requires you to work until you are dead.
No because there will be less to be done, think about all the work saved by not having to track transaction. There is a lot of work to do tracking money.
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:08 PM   #2409
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
No because there will be less to be done, think about all the work saved by not having to track transaction. There is a lot of work to do tracking money.
Do you think humanity will be down to only hundreds of people? Or as high as thousands after the mass die off?
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:09 PM   #2410
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
If there is no obligation, why do I need to do any work at all?

The real injustice is making all work valued the same. Right now it would take me about 15 minutes of work to generate the money I need to go to the movie theater. It would take my nephew about an hour. Our work is vastly different and correctly reflected in our pay. To elevate his wages to be equal to mine, without any effort or sacrifice that I've had to put in to get where I'm at would be the injustice.

This is what you are doing when you put the value of work at zero. The craftsman who puts in the effort to create a craft beer, is of the same value of the guy who bottles water. The artist who creates a painting at the same value of the blank canvass. Labor has value. Artistry has value. By removing that value, you are doing real harm to the world. Of course, these goods will still have extra value, requiring extra labor / resources, and without money the average person will not have the means to gain access to those goods. It will still gravitate to the 1%. It might be a different 1%, but it still we be a limited number of people who will have access to the good stuff since the people making the good stuff will want to be rewarded for their labor.
There is no injustice because in the no money system you do the work you agree to do. In the present money system, you do the work that you are forced to do because you need money to eat and get every thing you need...
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:15 PM   #2411
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no injustice because in the no money system you do the work you agree to do.
Good, I agree to photograph bikini models and test drive super cars and yachts.

Quote:
In the present money system, you do the work that you are forced to do because you need money to eat and get every thing you need...
No, nobody forces me to work. Does someone force you to work?
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:32 PM   #2412
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Good, I agree to photograph bikini models and test drive super cars and yachts.


No, nobody forces me to work. Does someone force you to work?
In true Gaetan style: because of money, yes, the evil rich 1% force everyone to work because of money. Without money, no force.
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:46 PM   #2413
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no injustice because in the no money system you do the work you agree to do. In the present money system, you do the work that you are forced to do because you need money to eat and get every thing you need...
There is no injustice because in the money system you do the work you agree to do. In the present no money system, you do the work that you are forced to do because you need to work to eat and get every thing you need...
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Old 18th December 2017, 04:48 PM   #2414
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
No because there will be less to be done, think about all the work saved by not having to track transaction. There is a lot of work to do tracking money.
Ah so in your no money world you won't track how much of anything is produced, delivered, consumed, needed, in transit or on hand? Money isn't the only thing that gets tracked even when it is the money (value not specifically the quantity of something) that is being tracked.
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Old 18th December 2017, 06:43 PM   #2415
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no injustice because in the no money system you do the work you agree to do. In the present money system, you do the work that you are forced to do because you need money to eat and get every thing you need...
What work did I agree to do? With whom did I make that agreement?

I am not forced to work. I do it voluntarily. I meet the conditions of my employment and they pay me what we've "agreed" to.

Your system is not any better, not by far. You still have me agreeing to work, and then living off the scraps you bring to market. I'm not currently living paycheck to paycheck, or direct deposit to direct deposit, but have a tidy sum in my bank, a house that is larger than I need (but has come in handy with the extra room), and a dog currently working on destroying all of my personal possession. In a no money system, I wouldn't have any of that. Because there would be nobody willing to make all of the stuff I own without fair compensation. And no, going to the market to get scraps wouldn't cut it.

I do mean scraps. In my baker analogy, all of my goods would be going to curry favor to get better cuts of meats from the rancher, better fruits from the farmer and be doing so to enrich my living. The stuff I would give away for free would be stale or moldy. The freebie market would get my scraps. Stuff I can't use to make my life better.

If you require me to give away my good stuff, it's an act of force and thus, by your definition, an injustice.

BTW, how are we paying for the Military stopping other, not so enlightened peoples, from coming in and taking all of our stuff? While stuff might be free from within the community, it can't be free for those outside the community. If the whole world goes no money, those with the most bullets becomes the 1%.
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Old 18th December 2017, 07:18 PM   #2416
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You do some work and the guy you received is not necessary the guy to who you give. understand? Exemple: i grow appels give it to the market, get a tv, maybe the guy who make the tv won't have my apple but he gets something in exchange from others he need.


In your world, I will simply take my artisan poop sculptures to the market and take TVs, cars, houses...at least until everyone else figures out that they can all stay home and make artisan poop sculptures. At that point, the poop is gonna start hitting the fan.
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Old 18th December 2017, 07:28 PM   #2417
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
What work did I agree to do?
This is your business.

Quote:
With whom did I make that agreement?
With the municipality, your government, the provider.


Quote:
I am not forced to work.
Then you gona eat what.

Quote:
I do it voluntarily. I meet the conditions of my employment and they pay me what we've "agreed" to.
You do it because you need to eat, you do what they agree if not you are dismissed or not employed just as the reporters and the medias to the service of rich.
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Old 18th December 2017, 07:30 PM   #2418
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You do it because you need to eat, you do what they agree if not you are dismissed or not employed just as the reporters and the medias to the service of rich.
Leading aside your weird political obsession, I won't need to work to eat in your no money world?
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Old 19th December 2017, 08:12 AM   #2419
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is your business.



With the municipality, your government, the provider.




Then you gona eat what.



You do it because you need to eat, you do what they agree if not you are dismissed or not employed just as the reporters and the medias to the service of rich.
Eat off the land. Be a hunter gatherer. A subsistence farmer. Nothing stopping anyone from doing that, is there? There are plenty of people doing exactly all around the world. Surely you knew that?

Now, look at them. Really look at those people. They have intentionally chosen exactly what you espouse, a "no money" world. Look at how they actually live. No TV because there is little to no electricity and besides, who has time to watch TV when you must spend all of your time struggling for simple survival. These "no money" folks do not have the internet, because they eschew money. They barter for basic necessities. It wouldn't be my choice of a life but it is a consequence of choosing that way of life.

And then here comes Gaetan, typing on a computer (paid for with money) on an internet connection (paid for with money) to a forum (paid for with money) to people who respond via their own computers (paid for with money) on their own internet connections (paid for with money).

Do you not see the disconnect?
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Old 19th December 2017, 08:18 AM   #2420
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is your business.

With the municipality, your government, the provider.
Without money, we no longer have a working agreement. In your world, with whom would I make this agreement? Who is bound by it? How do we negotiate my compensation? Is there an amount of work that entitles me to an unlimited amount of labor of others?


Quote:
Then you gona eat what.

You do it because you need to eat, you do what they agree if not you are dismissed or not employed just as the reporters and the medias to the service of rich.
I could grow my own food. Yes, I've done it before. I don't do it currently because it's very labor intensive and I can earn more money by selling my labor than growing my own food.

So, I do it because doing it makes my life better. It allows me to live above a subsistence level. It grants me access to various luxuries that would not be available, let alone exist, without money.

In a no-money world, where everything is free, what stops me from visiting you with a few armed thugs and taking everything you own? It's free after all, so it can't be stolen. As my goons are taking everything you've taken from other people, what is your recourse? I don't need to work in your no-money world. I just need some goons. The work I will do will be target practice and general thuggishness. This will entitle me to all of your stuff. And the stuff of anyone who crosses my sightlines. You are more than welcome to try and reclaim your stuff, but we will be better defended and armed.
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Old 19th December 2017, 11:01 AM   #2421
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You do it because you need to eat, you do what they agree if not you are dismissed or not employed just as the reporters and the medias to the service of rich.
People will still need to work in a no money world if they want to eat. Crops and livestock don't grow themselves. There won't be any government municipality because with no money, there is no government.

Then you will create different kinds of inequities because a gut doing heavy and hard labor will get the same compensation as someone who does nothing.
How long do you think a system like this will last before everyone will want to do nothing?

Even with no money, there will still be a 1% ruling class. They will either own most of the firearms, or they will have most of the needed resources such as access to drinking water or a farm if chickens, other livestock and crops.

The people who are considered "poor" now will have even less than what they have now.
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Old 6th January 2018, 11:46 PM   #2422
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
People will still need to work in a no money world if they want to eat. Crops and livestock don't grow themselves. There won't be any government municipality because with no money, there is no government.
There is no reason to not have a government in a world of no money.
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Old 7th January 2018, 02:07 AM   #2423
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no reason to not have a government in a world of no money.
FTFY.
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Old 7th January 2018, 09:43 AM   #2424
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no reason to not have a government in a world of no money.
What purpose would a government serve when there would only be a few thousand hunter gatherers left living in small rogue tribes? Billions died of barbarity after civilization effectively ceased while Gaetan rubbed his hands with glee at the slaughter.

Despicable.
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Old 7th January 2018, 11:41 AM   #2425
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
What purpose would a government serve when there would only be a few thousand hunter gatherers left living in small rogue tribes? Billions died of barbarity after civilization effectively ceased while Gaetan rubbed his hands with glee at the slaughter.

Despicable.
If human wouldn't share and be socialist we would still live at the age of stone.
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Old 7th January 2018, 12:57 PM   #2426
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If human wouldn't share and be socialist we would still live at the age of stone.
And it's a good thing we have money to facilitate that. Take away money and we all agree that we'd be back in the stone ages. It's absolutely evil to want to cackle with glee while little Christian children starve and are given into slavery.
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Old 7th January 2018, 02:01 PM   #2427
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no reason to not have a government in a world of no money.
Why are you making contradicting statements? Can't you remember things that you yourself have made?

Multi-layered quote:
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
What work did I agree to do?
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is your business.
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
With whom did I make that agreement?
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
With the municipality, your government, the provider.
Why should anyone listen to you when you can't even keep your delusions straight?
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Old 7th January 2018, 06:52 PM   #2428
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is no reason to not have a government in a world of no money.
And what role would the government have? Government exists to collect taxes and then provide some sort of service that is beneficial to it's citizens.

With no money, there will be no need for government.
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:47 PM   #2429
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
And what role would the government have? Government exists to collect taxes and then provide some sort of service that is beneficial to it's citizens.

With no money, there will be no need for government.
Government collect income to provide service, if you abolish money they won't collect income but people still need service: Garbage, road repair, police force, coordination of many things, water services, schools. The same thing they do now but without money involve.

Last edited by Gaetan; 16th January 2018 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:21 PM   #2430
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Government collect income to provide service, if you abolish money they won't collect income but people still need service: Garbage, road repair, police force, coordination of many things, water services, schools. The same thing they do now but without money involve.
Why couldn't those jobs be still done without government? You say people will still do their jobs so what would a government accomplish? Your scheme isn't even internally consistent.
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