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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:28 PM   #481
Giordano
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The description of events on the bridge of the McCain leading up to it cutting off the ALNIC read a little bit like a John Hughes script. Comedy ... if not for the dead sailors.
What an perfect example of how not to create an electronic interface for a critical system. Which station actually had the steering and which one did not should have been absolutely obvious using bright lights, large text and clear symbol indicators at the relevant stations and, in fact, repeated in front of the CO. Similarly which station controlled the throttles, and the throttle positions for each shaft, should be displayed in a manner that could not be ignored, particularly when the throttle positions for the two shafts were unequal (which would generate a yaw input that must be taken into account by the helmsperson and CO).

I believe these types of failures, not of a computer-controled system per se but of the interface of that system with the humans in charge of it, will become more and more common unless much more effort is devoted to how humans detect and respond to departures from the normal when they are under stress. Air France flight 447 is another example- a frozen pitot tube lead to the autopilot handing over control to the pilot and copilot who, unprepared for it (and in part poorly trained) mis-interpretated the conflicting information provided to them and stalled the plane, leading to 228 deaths.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:42 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's probably just you. Providing an easily recognizable user interface would be job #1 when designing any computer interface, and in a complex system that probably has more functionality than can fit on a single screen, drop-down menus make sense.

If there's a problem with the system, it would seem to be not providing prominent displays showing which stations were controlling which critical ship functions, which would seem like a no-brainer in a system where such controls can be transferred between stations.

That's kind of my point, though. If a control state is important enough to be worth a dedicated indicator (and I agree that "this console IS/IS NOT steering the ship" does seem to qualify), then it's also important enough to have a dedicated control whose setting is immediately and continuously available and visible. Not buried in context-sensitive displays on a multi-purpose screen. It appears the consoles in question had neither.

That kind of multi-layered dynamic functionality is fine for a word processor. Have you ever gotten into a state in a word processor where some weird unexpected thing is happening, like all your quote marks automatically changing to 36-point size, or text wrapping to a second column you didn't want that's half an inch wide on the right margin of the page? And you have to search through menus and dialog boxes to figure out why it's doing that and how to make it stop? That's what you don't want to be doing the equivalent of, on a ship cruising at sea, let alone in battle.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 12:50 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
That's kind of my point, though. If a control state is important enough to be worth a dedicated indicator (and I agree that "this console IS/IS NOT steering the ship" does seem to qualify), then it's also important enough to have a dedicated control whose setting is immediately and continuously available and visible. Not buried in context-sensitive displays on a multi-purpose screen. It appears the consoles in question had neither.

That kind of multi-layered dynamic functionality is fine for a word processor. Have you ever gotten into a state in a word processor where some weird unexpected thing is happening, like all your quote marks automatically changing to 36-point size, or text wrapping to a second column you didn't want that's half an inch wide on the right margin of the page? And you have to search through menus and dialog boxes to figure out why it's doing that and how to make it stop? That's what you don't want to be doing the equivalent of, on a ship cruising at sea, let alone in battle.
I think it would depend on how often controls would be transferred between stations, especially in a piecemeal fashion. It seems like that was the original error, and a really dumb way to run a fast ship like a modern destroyer. If the person at the helm can't handle both the throttle and the steering, that person should be removed for further training.

Still, your point is well taken. I type all day into multiple programs and I try not to use drop-down menus until I absolutely have to do so. I learn the keyboard shortcuts and handle everything I possibly can through those. When I encounter a frequently used function without a shortcut, where possible I create one.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 01:20 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I think it would depend on how often controls would be transferred between stations, especially in a piecemeal fashion. It seems like that was the original error, and a really dumb way to run a fast ship like a modern destroyer. If the person at the helm can't handle both the throttle and the steering, that person should be removed for further training.
.
I don't know about smaller ships but on a Carrier, the Helm does not have direct control over the engines. There are 4 screws all driven by their own turbines and controlled by separate throttlemen. The bridge sends down an order for what they want each throttleman to do.

The person at the helm never has to handle both the steering and the throttle.

Its the Officer of the Deck is really in charge of both while handling neither directly.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 01:43 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't know about smaller ships but on a Carrier, the Helm does not have direct control over the engines. There are 4 screws all driven by their own turbines and controlled by separate throttlemen. The bridge sends down an order for what they want each throttleman to do.

The person at the helm never has to handle both the steering and the throttle.

Its the Officer of the Deck is really in charge of both while handling neither directly.
From what I've read in this thread, the helm does have direct control over both on a destroyer, which makes sense based on its significantly increased agility compared to an aircraft carrier. A comparison could be made between a fighter jet and a C-5 Galaxy; the former will always have one person controlling both the stick and throttle, while the latter will have duties split between the pilot, copilot, and flight engineers.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:21 PM   #486
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Direct bridge control has been common on merchant ships since the 80s and on warships since the 90s.
Size has nothing to do with it as such, any ship can be given it.
Multiple conning stations have been common since the 90s but until fairly recently they were electro-mechanical designs using traditional 'quadrants', their position was obvious.
Modern digital and computerised systems are more tricky, the latest designs don't have physical controls at secondary stations, they use flat screen displays.
Some merchant ships such as tugs, oil platform service ships and dive support ships or other types that need close positioning can have 'walkround systems'.
These look similar to the transmitters used for radio control models and allow control to be taken to wherever needed.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 06:25 PM   #487
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IIRC, Microsoft got the contract for the control system of some class of boat.

Windows Nauitney Five perhaps? Maybe it caught the Nemo virus?
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Old 2nd November 2017, 10:54 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
IIRC, Microsoft got the contract for the control system of some class of boat.

Windows Nauitney Five perhaps? Maybe it caught the Nemo virus?
IIRC that was originally NT4 and later 2000. I don't think 9x was even an option because it wasn't certified for such use. I don't know current status.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 12:35 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
So the more agile vessel is always at fault? Want to come up with some scenarios where that would not be true? I'll give you a couple-

1) Fitz was anchored

2) Fitz was moving so slow it could not evade- rudders don't work without water flowing over them.

3) Fitz had something in tow, like a sonar array. Boats with gear out have the right of way.

Facts: We don't know anything about Fitz direction of speed or travel. We do know the Crystal capt's story is not believed by the experts interviewed bu Reuters. We do know the OP is very slanted, "USN destroy crashes into..." when we have no such knowledge. And obviously wrong. If the Fitz did the crashing into, the Crystal would be the one with a hole in the side. How about "Fitz gets centerpunched by freighter" Or "Collision at sea involving"..."

Flame on if you like. I won't be back for updates on facts. I may be back to see how the fire is doing.
Dredging up an uber skeptical post from August 22. (It's the best summary of the author's collective work in this thread. I doubt he'll be back to comment on his findings.)

We had ISIS-loyal Fillipino Captain, Chinese(or Russian or North Korean) hackers, top secret missions the Pentagon didn't want to let us in on,.... or we had cowboys on the bridge. Gasp! It was the latter.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:38 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
We had ISIS-loyal Fillipino Captain, Chinese(or Russian or North Korean) hackers, top secret missions the Pentagon didn't want to let us in on,.... or we had cowboys on the bridge. Gasp! It was the latter.
Unless he's being funny, it seems that there's still some doubt in that poster's mind that the USN messed up and instead maybe there were other factors in play.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
IIRC, Microsoft got the contract for the control system of some class of boat.

Windows Nauitney Five perhaps? Maybe it caught the Nemo virus?
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:41 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Yeah. Apart from the confusion over the control consoles, the McCain collision reads like a traffic accident where a car goes into a minor correctible skid, but the driver stomps on the brakes sending it completely out of control into oncoming traffic.

(And is it just me, or does anyone else think a "drop down menu selection" should not be a feature of the control interface of any piece of military hardware, ever?)
It strikes me as a really bad idea too. For people making critical decisions, one wants to reduce their cognitive load as much as possible.
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Old 4th November 2017, 10:55 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Conspiracy theories about this in 3..2...1....
The Navy is faking accidents to cover up how good it actually is.
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Old 6th November 2017, 07:49 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The description of events on the bridge of the McCain leading up to it cutting off the ALNIC read a little bit like a John Hughes script. Comedy ... if not for the dead sailors.
Should 2 minutes have been enough to avoid the other ship? these destroyers can go from 0 to 40 knots in 30 seconds.
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Old 6th November 2017, 10:44 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Should 2 minutes have been enough to avoid the other ship? these destroyers can go from 0 to 40 knots in 30 seconds.

Yes.

And come to a full stop ("crash back") just as quickly.

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I AGREE


Or do a 180į hairpin turn nearly as quickly.

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We talked about this much earlier in the thread.

Maneuverability isn't the problem for an Arleigh-Burke class destroyer, and it wasn't the problem with either of these two collisions.

Maneuvering, otoh, was.

In an airplane crash there is a euphemism one hears from time to time, "controlled descent into terrain". Which means the pilot flew the damned thing into the ground.

These two ships were maneuvered right into the the ships that they hit.
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:17 PM   #495
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Navy filing negligent homicide charges for McCain, Fitzgerald Commanders

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The commanders of two warships that collided with commercial vessels in the west Pacific last summer, killing 17 sailors, will face negligent homicide and other criminal charges, Navy officials said Tuesday.

Four destroyer Fitzgerald officers, including skipper Cmdr. Bryce Benson, will face charges of negligent homicide, dereliction of duty and hazarding a vessel for the June 17 incident that killed seven sailors off Japan, according to the Navy.

The three other officers, two lieutenants and one lieutenant j.g., were not identified in the Navy statement.
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...ld-commanders/
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:50 PM   #496
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Sounds about right.
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:59 PM   #497
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Does this make them vulnerable to civil suits from the families?
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:03 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Does this make them vulnerable to civil suits from the families?
Not 100% sure but you'd probably have to sue the Navy, the DOD, or the Government as an entity.

I don't think a civilian can sue a military member for something duty related.

But military law and civil law both are such a bottomless well of situational nuance and exceptions on exceptions for exceptions for other exceptions.... who knows?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/536.77
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Old 16th January 2018, 09:18 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Does this make them vulnerable to civil suits from the families?
I doubt it but IANAL. I'm sure they all had some level of life insurance coverage though. You are pretty much automatically enrolled in it when you join the military.
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Old Yesterday, 03:22 AM   #500
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Well, Damn, Boy! Good for the US Navy. I reckoned they'd kill a few careers, maybe get some to resign their commissions, and a few lower-level courts martial procedures but I never thought they'd go to criminal charges. We've already had a couple of admiral-types resign and according to the linked article there are a few more on the block.

I doubt it has anything to do with reorganizing under the new administration in Washington; this is just something that needed to happen. A bunch of kids lost their lives because of these asshats. I hope they all do hard time once it's determined whether and which of them are guilty.
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Old Yesterday, 01:25 PM   #501
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Here is a video summary of the charges

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=669_1516218400
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Here is a video summary of the charges

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=669_1516218400
The text to speech on that is horrible.
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Old Yesterday, 01:30 PM   #503
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US Navy surface boss expected to step down under pressure in latest collision fallout

Quote:
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Navy’s top surface warfare officer is expected to step down this week under pressure ahead of a forthcoming recommendation that he be relieved, the latest fallout from a string of accidents in the Pacific in 2017 that claimed the lives of 17 sailors at sea.

Vice Adm. Thomas Rowden is expected to send a letter this week stepping down as the head of Naval Surface Force Pacific, according to sources who spoke to Defense News on condition of anonymity. The head of naval reactors, Adm. James Caldwell, suggested Rowden’s relief as part of a series of recommendations related to the collisions involving the destroyers Fitzgerald and McCain over the summer.

Caldwell was appointed “consolidated disposition authority” over remaining disciplinary actions stemming from the accidents.

Rowden has been the head of surface forces since August 2014. His office sets policy and oversees the manning, training and equipping of surface ships in the Navy. He is slated to be relieved by Rear Adm. Richard Brown, who currently led Naval Personnel Command in Millington, Tennessee.
https://www.defensenews.com/breaking...ision-fallout/
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