Is the Roman Catholic Church in Freefall?

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Thank you for evidence rather than assertion.

Well you have left yourself wide open here arth, with your continued assertion that not many dioceses would have been affected, and that child abuse is not that common.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Darat

Happy for you to do your own research. The research I’ve done means I am confident in concluding that at the level of Bishops it was not a minority that was involved in the conspiracy.

That lines up with what I have read also. Why our own George Pell was up to his neck in the conspiracy according to the accounts of others. "Not all that interested", however, was his jaw dropping explanation for his lack of action, as well as his "what will it take to shut you up", to a victim.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well you have left yourself wide open here arth, with your continued assertion that not many dioceses would have been affected, and that child abuse is not that common.

Well that was my impression. Now that I've seen something in the way of evidence, I am open to reconsidering.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Well that was my impression. Now that I've seen something in the way of evidence, I am open to reconsidering.

Most commendable of you arth.

Some here will never admit to being wrong and continue arguing under water.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Thank you for evidence rather than assertion.

I told you where the evidence was….

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Most commendable of you arth.

Some here will never admit to being wrong and continue arguing under water.

I have always considered myself open to reasonable evidence. In this case, it appears that in the US at least, more dioceses had abuse problems than I was aware of. I was genuinely under the impression that it was a much smaller proportion than that.

And while 4% is a large number of clergy in absolute terms, it is still a small proportion of the total. So I still don't think it's fair to accuse all, or even a majority, of priests of being abusers. I don't suppose that we have a percentage of clergy that was aware of the 4% and didn't act properly.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Craig4

The study also concluded that four percent of priests engaged in sexual abuse. Four percent is a big number.

If you think that's a big number...

Statistics about sexual violence

Quote:

Sexual violence in the U.S.

One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives

8% of rapes occur while the victim is at work

Child sexual abuse

One in four girls and one in six boys will be sexually abused before they turn 18 years old

34% of people who sexually abuse a child are family members

Only 12% of child sexual abuse is reported to the authorities

Campus Sexual assault

One in 5 women and one in 16 men are sexually assaulted while in college.

More than 90% of sexual assault victims on college campuses do not report the assault.

63.3% of men at one university who self-reported acts qualifying as rape or attempted rape admitted to committing repeat rapes

[arthwollipot]

Four percent is a big number in absolute terms as I said. The actual numbers are hard to determine because it's complicated, but the best estimates I've been able to find suggest that there are 466,215 members of the Catholic ecclesiastical hierarchy worldwide. If America has a typical rate of abusive priests - 4% as has been suggested - this means that there are actually eighteen and a half thousand child abusers currently unaccountable to the law. That's a lot.

Add to that the number of people who were aware of the abuse and did not act appropriately, or who were complicit in their silence, that's even more.

[arthwollipot]

From the Department of Not Helping:

Former NSW Labor official and Catholic priest Peter Hansen admits to exploiting dozens of child sex abuse victims

Quote:

A former Catholic priest has admitted to a judge he exploited vulnerable children in poor Asian countries, after pleading guilty to dozens of child sexual offences.

Peter Andrew Hansen was arrested in October 2018 at Sydney Airport on his way back from Vietnam.

Australian Federal Police (AFP) officers conducted a search warrant at his home in Cabramatta in Sydney's south-west.

The 63-year-old has admitted to more than 30 offences, including possessing and distributing child exploitation material and sexual intercourse with children.

The NSW District Court has heard the offending took place in Vietnam and the Philippines.

Ugh. I need a shower.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The poor Pope is trying very hard.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pope-fr...st-11613826965

Quote:

ROME—Pope Francis accepted the resignation of Cardinal Robert Sarah as head of the Vatican’s office for liturgy, removing an outspoken conservative and possible future pope from the ranks of Vatican leadership.

The Holy See Press Office announced Saturday that Cardinal Sarah had stepped down.

. . . . .

In accepting Cardinal Sarah’s resignation, the pope has removed a subordinate out of step with his approach to liturgy, homosexuality and relations with the Muslim world. The cardinal is a hero to many conservative Catholics, some of whom see him as a future pontiff.

Too many centuries to unwind.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

From the Department of Not Helping:

Former NSW Labor official and Catholic priest Peter Hansen admits to exploiting dozens of child sex abuse victims

Ugh. I need a shower.

I understand a lot of the offending priests went to Fiji and other Pacific island nations.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

The poor Pope is trying very hard.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pope-fr...st-11613826965



Too many centuries to unwind.

What the RCC needs is a step back into the past. Those who disagree with the boss don't just get a DCM, they get burnt at the stake.

And this black Cardinal dude even had aspirations of becoming Pope himself, it is reported! I wonder how that would go down in with western Catholics?

it would seem the RCC is not only getting heaps of flack from outside, but is internally haemorrhaging as well.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I have always considered myself open to reasonable evidence. In this case, it appears that in the US at least, more dioceses had abuse problems than I was aware of. I was genuinely under the impression that it was a much smaller proportion than that.

And while 4% is a large number of clergy in absolute terms, it is still a small proportion of the total. So I still don't think it's fair to accuse all, or even a majority, of priests of being abusers. I don't suppose that we have a percentage of clergy that was aware of the 4% and didn't act properly.

OF course it means that anyone in a positions of management of more than 25 people is almost certain to be in charge of an abuser. That pretty much shows that the vast majority of the leadership is complicit.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

OF course it means that anyone in a positions of management of more than 25 people is almost certain to be in charge of an abuser. That pretty much shows that the vast majority of the leadership is complicit.

That would seem to be the obvious situation I suppose.

I wonder how the 4% figure is arrived at. Somewhere along the line it is being assumed that so many exposed cases means so many more total cases. I wonder how an assumption like this is made?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

What the RCC needs is a step back into the past. Those who disagree with the boss don't just get a DCM, they get burnt at the stake.

And this black Cardinal dude even had aspirations of becoming Pope himself, it is reported! I wonder how that would go down in with western Catholics?

it would seem the RCC is not only getting heaps of flack from outside, but is internally haemorrhaging as well.

The RCC has pretty much lost Europe, yet is still gaining strength in many African countries, if it tries to “modernise” it is likely to split as the African side of the church is unlikely to go along with the reforms. You only have to look at the problem the much looser held Anglican Church has had with reforms and the push back from African congregations.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Darat

The RCC has pretty much lost Europe, yet is still gaining strength in many African countries, if it tries to “modernise” it is likely to split as the African side of the church is unlikely to go along with the reforms. You only have to look at the problem the much looser held Anglican Church has had with reforms and the push back from African congregations.

Do you have any theories to explain the conservative leaning in the African Churches?

[Darat]

Those societies are socially conservative?

[Thor 2]

Then how come they are socially conservative?

As we know the white man came to Africa with the Bible and taught the religion to the natives. White men were the source of knowledge. When did the natives decide they knew the message with more clarity than the teachers?

I find it confounding.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Darat

The RCC has pretty much lost Europe, yet is still gaining strength in many African countries, if it tries to “modernise” it is likely to split as the African side of the church is unlikely to go along with the reforms. You only have to look at the problem the much looser held Anglican Church has had with reforms and the push back from African congregations.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Then how come they are socially conservative?

As we know the white man came to Africa with the Bible and taught the religion to the natives. White men were the source of knowledge. When did the natives decide they knew the message with more clarity than the teachers?

I find it confounding.

Who said they were socially conservative?

I say they are less educated and low income. And several other related factors are poor. This drives them to religion.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Who said they were socially conservative?

I say they are less educated and low income. And several other related factors are poor. This drives them to religion.

Darat suggested it.

What confounds me is the apparent rejection of the current directions from the West. After all the original source of the religious instruction.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Darat suggested it.

What confounds me is the apparent rejection of the current directions from the West. After all the original source of the religious instruction.

I can only really speak to Uganda, Kenya and the Great Lakes Region. However, you have to look at religion like a buffet in that part of Africa. The church forms to backbone of social life and many people spend all day Sunday at Church or social events afterward. Many people though find no contradiction in following traditional animistic religions as well. One impacts your soul, one impacts your life today. People tend to take the parts they like of each and discard the rest. Or, they will blend the two with animistic beliefs adapted to Christianity.

I'm not confounded at all by the rejection of directions from the West. It's kind of what they've been doing for a long time. Take what you want from the religion buffet and leave what you don't like.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Craig4

I can only really speak to Uganda, Kenya and the Great Lakes Region. However, you have to look at religion like a buffet in that part of Africa. The church forms to backbone of social life and many people spend all day Sunday at Church or social events afterward. Many people though find no contradiction in following traditional animistic religions as well. One impacts your soul, one impacts your life today. People tend to take the parts they like of each and discard the rest. Or, they will blend the two with animistic beliefs adapted to Christianity.

I'm not confounded at all by the rejection of directions from the West. It's kind of what they've been doing for a long time. Take what you want from the religion buffet and leave what you don't like.

That is, in fact, how voodoo started.

The other thing about Africa is that there are competing versions of Christianity there. The first colonial church was the Roman Catholics, but more recently there has been a veritable invasion of American-style evangelical Pentecostals heading over there too.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

That is, in fact, how voodoo started.

The other thing about Africa is that there are competing versions of Christianity there. The first colonial church was the Roman Catholics, but more recently there has been a veritable invasion of American-style evangelical Pentecostals heading over there too.

Yes the Americans have a flair for creating new Christian flavours and selling them to the World.

Non of the above however, answers my question about why senior African Catholics are more conservative, than the Catholics in the country where the religion originated.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

That is, in fact, how voodoo started.

The other thing about Africa is that there are competing versions of Christianity there. The first colonial church was the Roman Catholics, but more recently there has been a veritable invasion of American-style evangelical Pentecostals heading over there too.

Are you sure? Would have thought it would have been a Protestant church of some description?

[Filippo Lippi]

I guess it depends who colonised a particular bit first

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

I guess it depends who colonised a particular bit first

Yeah - embarrassingly whilst I have a good idea of our colonisation of what is now the USA, Canada and India I don’t have a clue of the dates of our colonisation of countries and territories in Africa. And that’s despite spending part of my childhood in two post-colonial African countries (Algeria and Nigeria).

[attempt5001]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Yes the Americans have a flair for creating new Christian flavours and selling them to the World.

Non of the above however, answers my question about why senior African Catholics are more conservative, than the Catholics in the country where the religion originated.

Hi Thor2 (and others). Been a long time, hope you are well.
I have a little experience with the history of this in the Anglican church. The impression I got there was that the leaders of churches in Africa felt they were staying true to the original faith they had accepted and promoted, and that the North American churches were succumbing to social pressures as they shifted towards more liberal viewpoints.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by attempt5001

Hi Thor2 (and others). Been a long time, hope you are well.
I have a little experience with the history of this in the Anglican church. The impression I got there was that the leaders of churches in Africa felt they were staying true to the original faith they had accepted and promoted, and that the North American churches were succumbing to social pressures as they shifted towards more liberal viewpoints.

Hi attempt5001 and welcome back.

Yes I suppose I can see some logic in what you are saying. How do you think Western Catholics would react to a black Pope? The church is already importing priests from Africa to Australia I have read, as recruitment here is very slow.

[attempt5001]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Hi attempt5001 and welcome back.

Yes I suppose I can see some logic in what you are saying. How do you think Western Catholics would react to a black Pope? The church is already importing priests from Africa to Australia I have read, as recruitment here is very slow.

Thanks Thor2. I'm not sure. I remember Bishop Desmond Tutu being very respected within the Toronto Diocese of the Anglican church, and while there would have no doubt been some detractors, I think he would have been broadly supported at the highest levels of leadership in that group. I haven't been part of the Anglican church in over 20 years though, so my perspective is outdated and I'm not too familiar with the Catholic church in either Canada or the US. These sorts of situations create interesting "bedfellows" though eh? Some conservatives may be more prone to holding onto discriminatory ideas, yet find themselves more aligned with the African church than their own local church on issues they consider non-negotiable.

More generally, and not surprisingly, claims of infallibility make change very difficult to navigate

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by attempt5001

Thanks Thor2. I'm not sure. I remember Bishop Desmond Tutu being very respected within the Toronto Diocese of the Anglican church, and while there would have no doubt been some detractors, I think he would have been broadly supported at the highest levels of leadership in that group. I haven't been part of the Anglican church in over 20 years though, so my perspective is outdated and I'm not too familiar with the Catholic church in either Canada or the US. These sorts of situations create interesting "bedfellows" though eh? Some conservatives may be more prone to holding onto discriminatory ideas, yet find themselves more aligned with the African church than their own local church on issues they consider non-negotiable.

More generally, and not surprisingly, claims of infallibility make change very difficult to navigate

Interesting, and quite amusing to me, this infallibility thing. We are informed nowadays, that the Pope is only infallible when he makes a statement ex cathedra (was it always thought to be the case?), and modern day Popes seem extremely reluctant to sit in that chair. You would think they would get off on binding and loosing stuff on Earth and in Heaven if they really thought they had the power.

[attempt5001]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Interesting, and quite amusing to me, this infallibility thing. We are informed nowadays, that the Pope is only infallible when he makes a statement ex cathedra (was it always thought to be the case?), and modern day Popes seem extremely reluctant to sit in that chair. You would think they would get off on binding and loosing stuff on Earth and in Heaven if they really thought they had the power.

Yeah, I'm not sure on the history of how Popes have chosen to differentiate between infallible vs. pretty sure this is right vs. just something that popped into my mind and I decided to throw it out there to see how it lands.
On the topic of binding/loosing, have you ever seen (or are you familiar with the plot of) the movie "Dogma", in which modern philosophers Jay and Silent Bob play out a thought experiment on that theme?

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by attempt5001

Yeah, I'm not sure on the history of how Popes have chosen to differentiate between infallible vs. pretty sure this is right vs. just something that popped into my mind and I decided to throw it out there to see how it lands.
On the topic of binding/loosing, have you ever seen (or are you familiar with the plot of) the movie "Dogma", in which modern philosophers Jay and Silent Bob play out a thought experiment on that theme?

Never seen it. Sounds interesting so I will look out for it.

[attempt5001]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Never seen it. Sounds interesting so I will look out for it.

Jay and Silent Bob are a unique (odd) pair of characters that show up in a series of low budget films and TV programs. Originally poster boys of sorts for the pot-smoking, disenfranchised (yet deep-thinking) youth and young adults of the early 90s. If I remember it correctly, "Dogma" presents a scenario in which the Catholic church has declared a set of "holy gates" through which anyone can walk to receive absolution. The devil decides to take on human form to attempt to walk through said gates to receive absolution, which would undo basic tenants of the faith and possibly cause the universe to cease to exist. I watched it a long time ago, and don't remember thinking it was particularly good, but the idea has stuck with me.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

I guess it depends who colonised a particular bit first

Yeah - that's true. I was thinking that it was mostly Spain and Portugal, but it may well have been Great Britain and France.

[Filippo Lippi]

And Islam

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Never seen it. Sounds interesting so I will look out for it.

You’ll struggle to find a copy, the rights are owned by the Weinstein brothers and pre-date streaming so unlikely to be ever renegotiated.

ETA: If you are want to see a drama that explores the world as the Roman Catholic Church says it is watch Apparitions - the world really would be a terrifying place.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Darat

You’ll struggle to find a copy, the rights are owned by the Weinstein brothers and pre-date streaming so unlikely to be ever renegotiated.

ETA: If you are want to see a drama that explores the world as the Roman Catholic Church says it is watch Apparitions - the world really would be a terrifying place.

Dogma? It's certainly available on the.....unofficial sources.
There's also the rather obscure TV series Strange with the inimitable Ian Richardson.

[Darat]

Yeah that was another good one.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by attempt5001

Jay and Silent Bob are a unique (odd) pair of characters that show up in a series of low budget films and TV programs. Originally poster boys of sorts for the pot-smoking, disenfranchised (yet deep-thinking) youth and young adults of the early 90s. If I remember it correctly, "Dogma" presents a scenario in which the Catholic church has declared a set of "holy gates" through which anyone can walk to receive absolution. The devil decides to take on human form to attempt to walk through said gates to receive absolution, which would undo basic tenants of the faith and possibly cause the universe to cease to exist. I watched it a long time ago, and don't remember thinking it was particularly good, but the idea has stuck with me.

Not the devil, but angels cast out of heaven.

[attempt5001]

ah, okay. Thanks. Been a long time since I saw it.