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Tags Coronavirus , diseases

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Old 8th March 2021, 02:09 PM   #2321
Steve
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
Caroline13 doesn't care are her age either, as it varies from post to post.
It's a number and she has told us she does not use them (except in her handle of course (or maybe that is her age )).
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Old 8th March 2021, 03:07 PM   #2322
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Bingo

At least *you* can tell I'm not an idiot as far as that is concerned, anyway
Indeed, I know (being Murmur from Bad Science) that you are in no way an idiot.
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Old 8th March 2021, 03:09 PM   #2323
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Originally Posted by Lrrr View Post
This is a total deflection that didn't answer my question at all. I'll repeat it again without the word 'skeptic':

Why do you keep posting links and demanding others read them when you won't read anything others ask you to read?
And when we do "her" the common decency of reading the links none of them say what we are told they say. Strange, that...
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Old 8th March 2021, 03:21 PM   #2324
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
cool story bro
She's got a million of 'em.
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Old 8th March 2021, 03:53 PM   #2325
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Interestingly, i just got back from a visit to the allopathic mainstream dermatologist (just checking on a couple of things, all just fine), and among other things, he, like just about every other mainstream doctor I've met in recent years, recommended supplemental vitiamin D, and suggested E too. Now there's a dilemma. If it was recommended by the same doctor who recommends conventional medicine and vaccines and stuff, should I discount that too? Oh, what to do.

Of course one might conclude that this is not a black and white, this side and that side, kind of issue. Only an idiot would conclude that taking supplemental vitamins requires abandoning medicine.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:04 PM   #2326
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Interestingly, i just got back from a visit to the allopathic mainstream dermatologist (just checking on a couple of things, all just fine), and among other things, he, like just about every other mainstream doctor I've met in recent years, recommended supplemental vitiamin D, and suggested E too. Now there's a dilemma. If it was recommended by the same doctor who recommends conventional medicine and vaccines and stuff, should I discount that too? Oh, what to do.

Of course one might conclude that this is not a black and white, this side and that side, kind of issue. Only an idiot would conclude that taking supplemental vitamins requires abandoning medicine.
What, your dermatologist didn't recommend getting your vitamin D from sunshine? Oh yeah, I was forgetting. It causes cancer.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:29 PM   #2327
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Interestingly, i just got back from a visit to the allopathic mainstream dermatologist (just checking on a couple of things, all just fine), and among other things, he, like just about every other mainstream doctor I've met in recent years, recommended supplemental vitiamin D, and suggested E too. Now there's a dilemma. If it was recommended by the same doctor who recommends conventional medicine and vaccines and stuff, should I discount that too? Oh, what to do.

Of course one might conclude that this is not a black and white, this side and that side, kind of issue. Only an idiot would conclude that taking supplemental vitamins requires abandoning medicine.
What's the dilemma? Do both or do none and get to a nude beach, that will take care of 1.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:33 PM   #2328
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
She's got a million of 'em.
Unfortunately, they're all the same.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:38 PM   #2329
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Everything I talk about is about my body and my health and so I post info that is published out there to back some of it up the experts who thankfully help to save a lot of people from sickness and deaths....

I've done my share of pharma drugs and surgery and living to regret and remember the trip to the ER from a drug...

And my daughter's hospital ICU's from all the damage at the hands of a pharma drug pusher, legal, drug pusher... she paid....

Why even mention this all, but it helps me get out my anger...
"Everything I talk about is about my body and my health" - proceeds to talk about her daughter's body and health.
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Old 8th March 2021, 04:44 PM   #2330
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
What's the dilemma? Do both or do none and get to a nude beach, that will take care of 1.
Yeah, 'cause that extra surface area from my butt and my junk is going to make all the difference between super-health levels of vitamin D and being vitamin D deficient. What am I, Milton Berle?
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Old 8th March 2021, 06:22 PM   #2331
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
What's the dilemma? Do both or do none and get to a nude beach, that will take care of 1.
Well, since the guy is a dermatologist who believes in reality, he would not likely recommend getting your D at a nude beach, because on the rare days when it's possible to do so in Vermont without freezing to death, there is a danger of skin cancer, and sunscreen blocks vitamin D.

It is true that in Vermont, unlike most other places, there is no law against public nudity. There is, for example, a famous nude bicycle race in the capital* every year. And as long as I don't disrobe in public I can legally go out and about with nothing on at all. A few years ago our then governor got quite a laugh from the news media when he thought, one night, that there was a bear at his bird feeder, and the rest of the state discovered that he slept in the nude.

But if you want a healthy amount of vitamin D hereabouts, it's probably better to put your pants on and take a pill.

*The town famously nicknamed "Montpeculiar" by columnist Peter Freyne, and, coincidentally, the only state capital that has no McDonald's restaurant.
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Old 8th March 2021, 09:43 PM   #2332
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Maybe OPEN SOME MINDS...I know that's a big thought.
It'd be nice if yours actually was an open mind. You've demonstrated that it isn't, repeatedly, though. Unfortunate.

Originally Posted by jond View Post
This from the poster who proudly proclaimed that her mind is not open to the possibility that she is wrong... As ever, when someone asks you to keep an open mind, they really mean "uncritically accept what I'm saying."
As ever, I reject this. I think that requests to keep an open mind are very often done honestly and properly. However, in the more limited context of conspiracy theories, religious beliefs, and the like, you're largely correct.
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Old 8th March 2021, 10:25 PM   #2333
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Here's the thing about open minds. A lot of people think it means something that it doesn't mean.

People who practice a skeptical mindset are always open to the possibility that they might be wrong. Always. It's a fundamental part of skeptical philosophy - to self-reflect and examine our own biases, and to change our opinions when given sufficient reason to do so. It's absolutely baseline 101. If you are interested in skepticism, this is the first thing you need to know.

People who say to skeptics "you should have an open mind" almost never do this. They never consider the possibility that they might be wrong. Maybe they have what they believe to be a good reason to think they might be right. Maybe they're just stubborn. But whatever the reason, the idea that they might be wrong is never seriously considered.

And here's where it gets tricky. Most of the things that people say "you should have an open mind" to skeptics about are things that have already been seriously considered and rejected, usually a long time ago. This looks like dismissal. This looks like the skeptic is not open to the possibility that they are wrong. But that's not what's happening. Almost everything that people challenge skeptics with are things that we (collectively as skeptics) have been open minded about, seriously considered, and rejected on the basis of logic and plausibility. And the ones that aren't are the ones that are just patently ridiculous or are clearly the product of mental illness.

We don't need to seriously consider the possibility of ESP, because ESP has been seriously studied for decades and no-one has come up with anything substantial. So skeptics don't need to "keep an open mind" about ESP. We've already done that and the hypothesis was rejected.

We see the same thing with creationism. "But what if you're wrong?" Yeah, we've considered the idea that we may be wrong about creationism, decades ago, and the overwhelming evidence in favour of evolution and the complete lack of evidence in favour of creationism is sufficient to draw a conclusion that we can be pretty sure is reliable.

For homeopathy in particular it's even worse. Not only is there no good evidence that it works, there's plenty of good evidence that it doesn't work, and furthermore there is a lack of any plausible mechanism for how it might work. Any proposed mechanism would require the laws of chemistry and physics as we know them to be fundamentally incorrect, and we are pretty sure that they aren't. We've considered it. We've looked into it, we've studied it, and we've determined that it is not real. We could continue to do so (and there are indeed some who do) but for the rest of us, there's really no need to rehash old ground. It's been done before.

If this looks to you like we're not being open-minded, then all I can say is that it isn't that. It isn't that at all. It's us having already been open-minded, having already studied and examined, and having drawn a conclusion based on logic, reason, and evidence.
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Old 8th March 2021, 11:03 PM   #2334
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
We see the same thing with creationism. "But what if you're wrong?" Yeah, we've considered the idea that we may be wrong about creationism, decades ago, and the overwhelming evidence in favour of evolution and the complete lack of evidence in favour of creationism is sufficient to draw a conclusion that we can be pretty sure is reliable.
Good explanation, arthwollipot. I'm quoting this bit just to add something to it. Back in the days when I was seriously examining the case for Christianity, I came across creationist arguments en masse, which I duly examined. One of my general conclusions after doing so was that the ubiquitous presence of fundamental dishonesty, ignorance, and fallacies in the arguments served as actual evidence against believing in creationism, on a different line than the lack of valid evidence for it and overwhelming evidence for the theories that actually had earned a scientific consensus favoring them the hard way.

The anti-vax movement is little better than creationism, at last check, though it does have a slightly better bedrock to rest upon, given that vaccines are not 100% safe, even if they reduce the total damage done to a population immensely.
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Old 8th March 2021, 11:19 PM   #2335
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
The anti-vax movement is little better than creationism, at last check, though it does have a slightly better bedrock to rest upon, given that vaccines are not 100% safe, even if they reduce the total damage done to a population immensely.
Most people have very poor risk evaluation skills.
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Old 9th March 2021, 01:01 AM   #2336
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people who believe in homeopathy might have been exposed to too much succussion as an infant.
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Old 9th March 2021, 01:03 AM   #2337
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
people who believe in homeopathy might have been exposed to too much succussion as an infant.
... or not enough ....
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Old 9th March 2021, 01:23 AM   #2338
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Another look at the Excess Deaths facts:
https://internationalman.com/articles/figures-dont-lie/
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:30 AM   #2339
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It'd be nice if yours actually was an open mind. You've demonstrated that it isn't, repeatedly, though. Unfortunate.
Something I've noticed about people who lack critical thinking skills is that their willingness to accept a claim seems to be inversely proportional to the amount of actual objective evidence for it. My late brother-in-law was like that - proudly telling me he didn't believe in evolution or in a link between smoking and cancer, whilst simultaneously trying to convince me that there were aliens living among us and that the world would end in 1999 because Nostradamus said so.

So unquestioningly accepting the unevidenced claims of the cranks she quotes is having an open mind, whilst carefully evaluating and then accepting claims from experts for which there is loads of objective evidence (e.g. that vaccines are a huge net benefit to public health) is having a closed one.
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Last edited by Pixel42; 9th March 2021 at 04:51 AM.
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:46 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Another look at the Excess Deaths facts:
https://internationalman.com/articles/figures-dont-lie/
There is a fundamental error in his numbers.

See if you can spot it. Bet you can't.
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:54 AM   #2341
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
There is a fundamental error in his numbers.

See if you can spot it. Bet you can't.
Spotting an error would require actually reading the link rather than just linking it.
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:55 AM   #2342
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
There is a fundamental error in his numbers.

See if you can spot it. Bet you can't.
I'm not even going to read some pinhead's analysis when I can visit the CDC website itself:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...ess_deaths.htm

And look at this graph:

WeeklyExcessDeaths.jpg

Anyone making claims about excess deaths not being significant needs to torture the data, and disagrees with professional actuaries.
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:59 AM   #2343
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here's the thing about open minds. A lot of people think it means something that it doesn't mean.

People who practice a skeptical mindset are always open to the possibility that they might be wrong. Always. It's a fundamental part of skeptical philosophy - to self-reflect and examine our own biases, and to change our opinions when given sufficient reason to do so. It's absolutely baseline 101. If you are interested in skepticism, this is the first thing you need to know.

People who say to skeptics "you should have an open mind" almost never do this. They never consider the possibility that they might be wrong. Maybe they have what they believe to be a good reason to think they might be right. Maybe they're just stubborn. But whatever the reason, the idea that they might be wrong is never seriously considered.

And here's where it gets tricky. Most of the things that people say "you should have an open mind" to skeptics about are things that have already been seriously considered and rejected, usually a long time ago. This looks like dismissal. This looks like the skeptic is not open to the possibility that they are wrong. But that's not what's happening. Almost everything that people challenge skeptics with are things that we (collectively as skeptics) have been open minded about, seriously considered, and rejected on the basis of logic and plausibility. And the ones that aren't are the ones that are just patently ridiculous or are clearly the product of mental illness.

We don't need to seriously consider the possibility of ESP, because ESP has been seriously studied for decades and no-one has come up with anything substantial. So skeptics don't need to "keep an open mind" about ESP. We've already done that and the hypothesis was rejected.

We see the same thing with creationism. "But what if you're wrong?" Yeah, we've considered the idea that we may be wrong about creationism, decades ago, and the overwhelming evidence in favour of evolution and the complete lack of evidence in favour of creationism is sufficient to draw a conclusion that we can be pretty sure is reliable.

For homeopathy in particular it's even worse. Not only is there no good evidence that it works, there's plenty of good evidence that it doesn't work, and furthermore there is a lack of any plausible mechanism for how it might work. Any proposed mechanism would require the laws of chemistry and physics as we know them to be fundamentally incorrect, and we are pretty sure that they aren't. We've considered it. We've looked into it, we've studied it, and we've determined that it is not real. We could continue to do so (and there are indeed some who do) but for the rest of us, there's really no need to rehash old ground. It's been done before.

If this looks to you like we're not being open-minded, then all I can say is that it isn't that. It isn't that at all. It's us having already been open-minded, having already studied and examined, and having drawn a conclusion based on logic, reason, and evidence.
Good post, Arth!

It is quite annoying when every new alt med/anti-vax/ID/wooster/CT-er/whatever eejit idea supporter comes along and acts like they are the first and only person to have made whatever discovery and that we, who've been through this class of nonsense, seen it all debunked, disproved and all over and over, are expected to take them seriously, because we should be "open minded"...

And all because they lack the ability to look it up and think critically...

That recent thread about "evidence" against evolution being a very good case in point.
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Old 9th March 2021, 05:25 AM   #2344
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
OK, so a paper from Nature - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5 - from which I find: "While ADE has been well documented in vitro for a number of viruses, including human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)33,34, Ebola35,36, influenza37 and flaviviruses38, the relevance of in vitro ADE for human coronaviruses remains less clear."

And: "No definitive role for ADE in human coronavirus diseases has been established."

And: "Should it occur, ERD caused by human vaccines will first be observed in larger phase II and/or phase III efficacy trials that have sufficient infection events for statistical comparisons between the immunized and placebo control study arms. Safety profiles of COVID-19 vaccines should be closely monitored in real time during human efficacy trials, especially for vaccine modalities that may have a higher theoretical potential to cause immunopathology (such as inactivated whole-virus formulations or viral vectors)64,65." Which hasn't happened yet...

And: "Preclinical data suggest a low risk of ADE for potently neutralizing mAbs at doses substantially above the threshold for neutralization, which protected mice and Syrian hamsters against SARS-CoV-2 challenge without enhancement of infection or disease81,82."

And: "ADE has been observed in SARS, MERS and other human respiratory virus infections including RSV and measles, which suggests a real risk of ADE for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and antibody-based interventions. However, clinical data has not yet fully established a role for ADE in human COVID-19 pathology. Steps to reduce the risks of ADE from immunotherapies include the induction or delivery of high doses of potent neutralizing antibodies, rather than lower concentrations of non-neutralizing antibodies that would be more likely to cause ADE."

Not looking good at all for this latest bit of scare-mongering from the Supplement Shills...
So, still no thoughts on this one, "Caroline"? A paper found very easily by searching for ADE...Very easily...First page...
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Old 9th March 2021, 05:40 AM   #2345
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
So, still no thoughts on this one, "Caroline"? A paper found very easily by searching for ADE...Very easily...First page...
hmmmm.......
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Old 9th March 2021, 06:00 AM   #2346
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
There is a fundamental error in his numbers.

See if you can spot it. Bet you can't.
It took me a few seconds to Google it but yes, I can see it.

I guess when it's inconvenient that "figures don't lie" some people just lie about the figures.
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Old 9th March 2021, 06:22 AM   #2347
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Too FEW Irons in the Fire or Out of The Frying Pan

Read it Skeptics, maybe it will sink in.


https://www.anhinternational.org/new...he-frying-pan/
Until you demonstrate some capacity to grasp the basics of the scientific method, I won't click your links. What would be the point of reading more baseless assertions and confusion of anecdote with evidence? Why don't you just keep your seat at the kid's table? COVID-19 is serious and your "work" just isn't good enough for you to participate in a serious conversation about this.
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Old 9th March 2021, 06:41 AM   #2348
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Until you demonstrate some capacity to grasp the basics of the scientific method, I won't click your links. What would be the point of reading more baseless assertions and confusion of anecdote with evidence? Why don't you just keep your seat at the kid's table? COVID-19 is serious and your "work" just isn't good enough for you to participate in a serious conversation about this.
I did click on it, it's about a known (albeit rare) issue with some vaccines:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibo...nt_enhancement

Needless to say it is a concern that was considered and addressed during the development of the Covid 19 vaccines.
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:08 AM   #2349
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
There is a fundamental error in his numbers.

See if you can spot it. Bet you can't.
There is almost as much of a fundamental error in believing that a mediocre common-cold virus caused a plague of Biblical proportions as there is in believing that an angel hovering over the Virgin Mary caused her to give birth to the Son of God who died for our sins, and yet billions of people believe these things.

Can you spot any errors?

Last edited by Tom Palven; 9th March 2021 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:27 AM   #2350
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Please quote any virologist or any other expert, or any poster here other than you, describing the current pandemic as "a plague of Biblical proportions".

In many ways we've been extremely lucky, in that Covid 19 has a relatively low fatality rate. It's the high R which has necessitated the extreme measures. It could have been a great deal worse.
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:35 AM   #2351
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
There is almost as much of a fundamental error in believing that a mediocre common-cold virus caused a plague of Biblical proportions as there is in believing that an angel hovering over the Virgin Mary caused her to give birth to the Son of God who died for our sins, and yet billions of people believe these things.

Can you spot any errors?
Yes. Obviously. Got anything worthwhile to say?
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:40 AM   #2352
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Can you spot any errors?
You mean like believing that a massive, world-wide scientific consensus is equivalent to a religious belief?

Which is it, Tom - are tens of millions of professionals all over the globe complicit in the hoax, or are they all just too stupid and incompetent to tell the difference between pathogens, whereas you easily can?

The fact that you've been evading this morbid flaw in your argument since it was first presented to you tells us all that you know it's a huge problem, and that either answer will make you look ridiculous. And the fact that you ignore the issue and continue presenting arguments that you know are fallacious, simply because they imply a reality that makes you feel special and therefore you want them to be true, is, ironically, exactly what the religious faithful do.
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:40 AM   #2353
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Another look at the Excess Deaths facts:
https://internationalman.com/articles/figures-dont-lie/
"Figures don't lie".

1. And yet he lies about the figures.
2. The article isn't dated.
3. He doesn't show his work. Readers are expected to take his word.
4. He references a "researcher" but no link to the research.
5. The commentary consists of hyperbolic blather.
6. He's hawking investment advice.
7. He has no relevant qualifications.

Why should we take the word of this random, agenda-driven blowhard over virtually every national and local health agency in the world?
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Old 9th March 2021, 07:47 AM   #2354
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Please quote any virologist or any other expert, or any poster here other than you, describing the current pandemic as "a plague of Biblical proportions".

In many ways we've been extremely lucky, in that Covid 19 has a relatively low fatality rate. It's the high R which has necessitated the extreme measures. It could have been a great deal worse.
That's what has struck me from nearly the start - this weird attitude that if it isn't the Super-Flu from The Stand, it can't be serious.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:17 AM   #2355
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
There is almost as much of a fundamental error in believing that a mediocre common-cold virus caused a plague of Biblical proportions as there is in believing that an angel hovering over the Virgin Mary caused her to give birth to the Son of God who died for our sins, and yet billions of people believe these things.

Can you spot any errors?
You mean beyond the ignorantly foolish contention that Covid-19 is "a mediocre common-cold virus" and the hyperbolically foolish contention that it's a "plague of Biblical proportions," whatever that might actually mean?

I remember as a kid being amused by nursery-rhyme observations such as "if it weren't false it would be true," or "if she hasn't moved she'll be living there still," but it's not at all funny in an adult debate.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:22 AM   #2356
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
There is almost as much of a fundamental error in believing that a mediocre common-cold virus caused a plague of Biblical proportions as there is in believing that an angel hovering over the Virgin Mary caused her to give birth to the Son of God who died for our sins, and yet billions of people believe these things.

Can you spot any errors?
May I take it that you admit that you are unable to spot the glaring error?

What a surprise.

And why should anyone care what some magic book says about anything? We already know it is utter crap.
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Old 9th March 2021, 08:27 AM   #2357
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
There is almost as much of a fundamental error in believing that a mediocre common-cold virus caused a plague of Biblical proportions as there is in believing that an angel hovering over the Virgin Mary caused her to give birth to the Son of God who died for our sins, and yet billions of people believe these things.

Can you spot any errors?
And there are logical errors. You have to account for all the excess deaths somehow. Pretending they are not there is no way explanatory.

I could help you understand, but you don't want to, so that would be a wasted effort. You have your little religion of one and that is all you want.

Go ahead. I reserve the right to burst out laughing at your pronouncements.
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Old 9th March 2021, 09:14 AM   #2358
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A mediocre cold virus that has killed more than 2.6 million worldwide, left millions upon millions with lingering symptoms and left millions more with permanent pulmonary and neurological issues?

What an utterly daft assertion.
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Old 9th March 2021, 09:14 AM   #2359
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Yes. Obviously. Got anything worthwhile to say?
Seriously, you explain to me how Christianity became so popular and I think it will go a long way toward explaining belief in the Covid Plague, or Pandemic, whatever.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 9th March 2021 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 9th March 2021, 09:16 AM   #2360
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
You explain to me how Christianity became so popular and I think it will go a long way toward explaining belief in the Covid Plague, or Pandemic, whatever.
**** analogy remains **** analogy. Quelle surprise.
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