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Old 3rd October 2020, 01:38 AM   #1401
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The first ministers lunch time broadcast should be good value today.

There also appears to be questions about how long she took to inform anyone of her status.

What she did was much worse than Cummings. Cummings left work as soon as he heard his wife had symptoms (before he had any) and self isolated at the family home having travelled there by private car.

Nope. He went home when he heard his wife had symptoms, but then went back to work again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-52784290
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/coron...ments-11993086
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Old 3rd October 2020, 02:00 AM   #1402
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Nope. He went home when he heard his wife had symptoms, but then went back to work again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-52784290
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/coron...ments-11993086
There's very little difference between what Ferrier and Cummings did. Of course the Tories will condemn one and not the other.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 02:20 AM   #1403
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I keep thinking the Ferrier must have thought the she just over-reacted by having a test, she had to represent her constituents etc.
That could explain why she went to Westminster while waiting for the results of her test. It doesn't explain why she spent hours on a train after testing positive.

And, FWIW, I think that MPs and the like should be held to a higher standard on this, because they're the people that the general public take their cues from. Cumming's eyesight test got the response of people saying "well, if the rules don't apply to him, then they don't apply to me, either", which is dangerous and has almost certainly cost lives. Another authority figure doing something worse is at least as bad, and likely more so, because it re-enforces the message that the rules don't matter and you don't have to abide by them.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 04:34 AM   #1404
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I have tested negative two times, but I have been thinking what I would do if I was tested positive, and I am far from home. I do not have a car, and if I cannot take the train back, just what can I do? I think that a taxi would probably not be a good idea either, so possibly the only solution would be to call for an ambulance, which I would have to pay for myself.

What would an ambulance cost from Westminster to Scotland?
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Old 3rd October 2020, 05:19 AM   #1405
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think I can cope with the idea of people being fined and even with the idea that an MP has had to resign. She lost her seat once before, she'll cope. And she should have had enough foresight to realise the consequences of her actions. If she lacks that, she's not bright enough to be an MP anyway.
If she can’t make a living as anything other than as an MP then how can she possibly be suitable as an MP?
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Old 3rd October 2020, 05:32 AM   #1406
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I've read various ex-MPs whining about how hard it is to lose their seats and being thrown on the dole (really? you couldn't save anything on that salary?) but I don't really have any sympathy. It's the nature of the job, there could be a general election any time. I'm more sorry for their staff, but again it's the nature of the job.

Yes, if they don't have the skills to get another job (and a lot of them seem to become consultants or non-executive directors), then you don't have the skills to be an MP. That someone has brought it on themselves rather than being caught by a snap general election doesn't make me any more sympathetic.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 01:37 PM   #1407
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Oops.

Quote:
Due to a technical issue, which has now been resolved, there has been a delay in publishing a number of COVID-19 cases to the dashboard in England. This means the total reported over the coming days will include some additional cases from the period between 24 September and 1 October, increasing the number of cases reported.
The figures for new cases reported on Saturday are 12,872, which is almost double Friday's count. Clearly, a lot are back-dated, and the numbers can't be compared with the first peak because the number of tests now is so much greater.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 01:44 PM   #1408
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Something odd with testing. The government website has recently been changed to advise people with symptoms to get tested on the eighth day after onset, which is a surprise to staff who understood that tests after five days were not reliable.

Quote:
Prof Allyson Pollock, a member of the Independent Sage committee, said extending the time period in which symptomatic people can be tested could lead to infectious people not being identified soon enough, further undermining the effectiveness of contact tracing.

“The priority for the government should be to find symptomatic people early and to follow the statutory notification system, which requires medical practitioners to notify suspected cases to local authorities,” she said. “This can only be done by integrating testing into clinical care in primary care settings and through local contact tracing.

“The problem is, the government has carved testing out of health services and general practice and public health and created a centralised, ineffective, privatised testing and contact-tracing system instead of rebuilding public health and primary care and NHS lab capacity locally.”

She added that the extension also risked the tests identifying more people who were no longer infectious and could result in the unnecessary isolation of contacts.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 03:20 PM   #1409
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've read various ex-MPs whining about how hard it is to lose their seats and being thrown on the dole (really? you couldn't save anything on that salary?) but I don't really have any sympathy. It's the nature of the job, there could be a general election any time. I'm more sorry for their staff, but again it's the nature of the job.

Yes, if they don't have the skills to get another job (and a lot of them seem to become consultants or non-executive directors), then you don't have the skills to be an MP. That someone has brought it on themselves rather than being caught by a snap general election doesn't make me any more sympathetic.
Well put. I agree.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 06:16 PM   #1410
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Dyson provided sweet FA unless I somehow missed the thousands of Dyson ventilators.
Not needed, so not produced. (That is of course a good thing.) I really do not understand all this spite against someone who tried to do his bit by in a crisis. He made no profit out of this, he has a long history of philanthropy. He is one of very few British people who has developed a major manufacturing company himself. This is what I keep hearing people arguing the UK needs more of; manufacturing. But given that nearly everyone on this site seems to despise some one who actually does this I am not surprised that support for engineering in the UK is so poor.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 06:20 PM   #1411
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It took me a minute to find multiple reputable sources that state otherwise. He is also a long-standing member of the Conservative party.
Being a member of the conservative party is different from being a contributor (other than membership fees which are small). Still I have no doubt you will prove me wrong by showing the financial contribution made to the conservative party by James Dyson or his company.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 06:22 PM   #1412
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why doesn't he support engineering in the UK by actually making his stuff here instead of in the far east? Why has he moved his HQ out of the country?
Seems he is like all the pro brexit businessmen, pissing off out of it now he has got what he wants.
He supports engineering in the UK by funding engineering research, a chair in engineering, and departments of engineering to train engineers in the UK. Actually putting the stuff together is not really engineering.
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Old 3rd October 2020, 06:50 PM   #1413
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putting stuff together is where the jobs are, both directly and indirectly through sub contractors, component suppliers and service companies.
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Old 4th October 2020, 01:00 AM   #1414
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I have tested negative two times, but I have been thinking what I would do if I was tested positive, and I am far from home. I do not have a car, and if I cannot take the train back, just what can I do? I think that a taxi would probably not be a good idea either, so possibly the only solution would be to call for an ambulance, which I would have to pay for myself.

What would an ambulance cost from Westminster to Scotland?
Stay at a hotel for 2 weeks, and tell them that you're self-isolating.

I know not everybody can afford that, but I'm sure someone on an MP's salary can.
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Old 4th October 2020, 01:24 AM   #1415
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Stay at a hotel for 2 weeks, and tell them that you're self-isolating.

I know not everybody can afford that, but I'm sure someone on an MP's salary can.

Would the expenses that MPs get for accommodation in London have covered it?
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Old 4th October 2020, 01:26 AM   #1416
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Stay at a hotel for 2 weeks, and tell them that you're self-isolating.

I know not everybody can afford that, but I'm sure someone on an MP's salary can.

Exactly.
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Old 4th October 2020, 01:27 AM   #1417
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Thinking about it, she probably has a flat in London, somewhere near the Houses of Parliament. There was absolutely no need to go back to Hamilton.
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Old 4th October 2020, 01:36 AM   #1418
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Thinking about it, she probably has a flat in London, somewhere near the Houses of Parliament. There was absolutely no need to go back to Hamilton.

No, from what I’ve seen I think she uses hotels to stay in London rather than renting a flat.
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Old 4th October 2020, 01:44 AM   #1419
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Stay at a hotel for 2 weeks, and tell them that you're self-isolating.

I know not everybody can afford that, but I'm sure someone on an MP's salary can.
There are plenty of budget hotels in and around London.

I'm sure an MP could afford £50 a night for 2 weeks.
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Old 4th October 2020, 03:54 AM   #1420
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Would the expenses that MPs get for accommodation in London have covered it?
Probably. If she'd contacted her party and said "look, I've tested positive and I don't want to get on a train, can I cover 2 weeks in a hotel on expenses?" it doesn't seem unlikely that she'd have been told "yes". Especially given how seriously the SNP has been taking consistent messaging (not that I've been following Sturgeon that closely, but I think "much more seriously than Johnson" is definitely fair to say).
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Old 4th October 2020, 03:59 AM   #1421
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Stay at a hotel for 2 weeks, and tell them that you're self-isolating.

I know not everybody can afford that, but I'm sure someone on an MP's salary can.
Hotel accommodation is surprisingly cheap at present. I am sure there would be some sort of system that could arrange for a cooked meal to be delivered.
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Old 4th October 2020, 04:19 AM   #1422
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Probably. If she'd contacted her party and said "look, I've tested positive and I don't want to get on a train, can I cover 2 weeks in a hotel on expenses?" it doesn't seem unlikely that she'd have been told "yes". Especially given how seriously the SNP has been taking consistent messaging (not that I've been following Sturgeon that closely, but I think "much more seriously than Johnson" is definitely fair to say).

It seems to be down to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority rather than the party.

Accommodation expenses are covered by chapter 4 of this:

https://www.theipsa.org.uk/media/185...accessible.pdf
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Old 4th October 2020, 04:37 AM   #1423
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Nope. He went home when he heard his wife had symptoms, but then went back to work again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-52784290
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/coron...ments-11993086
You are correct.

Quote:
"I suddenly got a call from my wife who was looking after our four-year-old child. She told me she suddenly felt badly ill." He went home, but after a couple of hours his wife felt better and he returned to work. "That evening I returned home and discussed the situation with my wife. She was ill. She might have Covid although she did not have a cough or a fever." Mr Cummings drove up to Durham with his family, arriving "at roughly midnight". "I was worried that if my wife and I were both seriously ill, possibly hospitalised, there was nobody in London we could reasonably ask to look after our child and expose themselves to Covid.
Cummings drove 200 miles in a private car. He probably did fail under the exemption that there was allowing that particular arrangements may be needed where young children were involved.

Ferrier not only travelled 800 miles (there and back) by public transport she continued to work, exposing many people. Ferrier on the day she was tested (ie symptomatic) also carried out a number of constituency visits at a time she should have been self isolating. This is not just about the journey.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...t-two-22787989

I think that to equate the actions of a (all be it political) civil servant who took action that did not expose members of the public to his possibly infected / infectious wife; and an elected member of parliament who knowingly visited people and travelled on public transport with a definite infection requires some sort of prejudice on one side or he other.

For my part I would not sack either of them. Ferrier should be prosecuted as she clearly broke English law in England. I assume that after a period of reflection in isolation she will announce her intention to stand down in due course. Perhaps timed so that a by election could be next spring when the winter waves are passed and perhaps when a vaccine is being launched.
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Old 4th October 2020, 05:28 AM   #1424
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
No, from what I’ve seen I think she uses hotels to stay in London rather than renting a flat.

Oh right. In that case, self-isolate in a hotel. Ask for help if need be. Just don't get on a train for a 450 mile journey.
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Old 4th October 2020, 06:08 AM   #1425
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
We were told today that the Scottish app has been downloaded 1.3 million times (1,338,471 according to my phone) and that over the past three weeks over 2,000 people have been advised to isolate through the app. This time it was stated "These are people who might not otherwise have been identified," however I rather doubt whether it's true that none of them would have been traced by the normal contact-tracing operation.

Contact tracing app downloaded by 1.3 million

The idea that a phone app alone could wipe out this virus is fanciful, no matter how many people downloaded it. Apart from anything else, it's estimated that only 3 million people in Scotland actually possess phones capable of running the app. It's an add-on or extension to traditional boots on the ground contact tracing, not a substitute for it.
1. We did a comparison here in the early days, with app and convention T&T in parallel, and found several hundred infected contacts detected via the phone that were simply not caught otherwise. I think the estimated number is now in the low thousands also.
2. Agreed. It's a tool, a useful tool and one with an excellent CBR (unless you do what the UK did and squander tens of millions on it), but just one of many.
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Old 4th October 2020, 06:10 AM   #1426
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Oh, as an aside, how come Mark Francois has a proxy vote and hasn't been seen for several weeks?
Now, now....
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Old 4th October 2020, 06:14 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Oh FFS it's time to admit that young adults are idiots and close the universities for six months.
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Old 4th October 2020, 06:16 AM   #1428
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Fortunately it hasn't gotten this bad yet here, but we're pretty much in the same boat as the London drivers. We're to politely point out the rules in case passengers board without face coverings, but abstain from any confrontation.

Any such confrontation is to be undertaken by the ticket inspectors, but there's only a handful of them, and they're very rarely seen in the evening and on weekends
I wonder if, hypothetically, one carried a bleach spray and sprayed an individual who refused to wear a mask and claimed to have been motivated by fear of infection, how would a jury react?
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Old 4th October 2020, 09:19 AM   #1429
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Now, now....
Well he's not pregnant - and I understand pregnancy or illness are the only two reasons for having a proxy vote.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 4th October 2020, 01:53 PM   #1430
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They've found another 15,000 cases down the back of the sofa.
Quote:
An issue was identified overnight on Friday 2 October in the automated process that transfers positive cases data to PHE. It has now been resolved.

The cases by publish date for 3 and 4 October include 15,841 additional cases with specimen dates between 25 September and 2 October — they are therefore artificially high for England and the UK.
So, today's figure for newly reported cases is 22,961 (which is huge, but slightly misleading).

Also, looking at the cases by date of test, they are running at over 8000 per day for England. (Though, looking at the jump of 3000 cases on 28th September, I think there may either be quite a few more lost results to be found, or there's something else odd going on.)

ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ovid-19-europe

Quote:
Boris Johnson said earlier on Sunday that there was “a failure in the counting system which has now been rectified”. He told BBC One’s Andrew Marr Show it was a “computing issue” and all those who had a positive test had been notified.

Michael Brodie, the interim chief executive at Public Health England, said the “technical issue” was identified overnight on Friday 2 October in the data load process that transfers Covid-19 positive lab results into reporting dashboards.

“After rapid investigation, we have identified that 15,841 cases between 25 September and 2 October were not included in the reported daily Covid-19 cases. The majority of these cases occurred in most recent days. Every one of these cases received their Covid-19 test result as normal and all those who tested positive were advised to self-isolate. NHS Test and Trace and PHE have worked to quickly resolve the issue and transferred all outstanding cases immediately into the NHS Test and Trace contact tracing system.”
Quote:
Public Health England provided a breakdown of how many cases were not included in each day’s figures, which are as follows:
957 cases were not included on September 25, when the original figure given was 6,874
744 on September 26, when the original figure given was 6,042
757 on September 27, when the original figure given was 5,693
none on September 28, when the original figure given was 4,044
1,415 on September 29, when the original figure given was 7,143
3,049 on September 30, when the original figure given was 7,108
4,133 on October 1, when the original figure given was 6,914
4,786 on October 2, when the original figure given was 6,968

So we can see that, at its worst, it meant that nearly 5,000 cases were missing from daily totals
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Last edited by zooterkin; 4th October 2020 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 4th October 2020, 02:43 PM   #1431
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A 3-tier "traffic light" system is apparently being considered to clarify what is allowed under local lockdowns in England.

Quote:
Alert level 3 – the most serious – contains tougher measures than any seen so far in local lockdowns since the start of the pandemic. They include:

Closure of hospitality and leisure businesses.
No social contact outside your household in any setting.
Restrictions on overnight stays away from home.
No organised non-professional sports permitted or other communal hobby groups and activities, such as social clubs in community centres.
Places of worship can remain open.

...

Under alert level 2, people must not meet others outside of their household in private dwellings or gardens, apart from their support bubble, or in pubs, restaurants or other settings. Level 2 will be “triggered in geographical areas or nationally when there has been a rise in transmission, which cannot be contained through local responses”.

Visiting care homes will only be allowed in exceptional circumstances and travel should be limited to essential purposes, though holidays are permitted within households.

People can continue to play organised team sports. Weddings are limited to 15 attendees and receptions would not be permitted, with funeral numbers also slashed from 30 to 15 attendees.

Alert level 1 contains restrictions currently in place across England, including the “rule of six” for gatherings indoor and out, the wearing of face-coverings, the 10pm curfew on hospitality businesses and numbers limited to 15 at weddings and 30 at funerals.
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Old 4th October 2020, 02:59 PM   #1432
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
They've found another 15,000 cases down the back of the sofa.
The last time I checked our pocket-stuff-eating-chair I found a nail-clipper, a ring, a radiator valve key, about thirteen Euro in change, and a Canadian dollar. Not fifteen thousand misplaced records.
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Old 4th October 2020, 03:41 PM   #1433
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The last time I checked our pocket-stuff-eating-chair I found a nail-clipper, a ring, a radiator valve key, about thirteen Euro in change, and a Canadian dollar. Not fifteen thousand misplaced records.

I suppose the dog must have eaten them, then.
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Old 4th October 2020, 04:00 PM   #1434
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The last time I checked our pocket-stuff-eating-chair I found a nail-clipper, a ring, a radiator valve key, about thirteen Euro in change, and a Canadian dollar. Not fifteen thousand misplaced records.
So that's where the damn thing went.
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Old 5th October 2020, 02:37 AM   #1435
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
They've found another 15,000 cases down the back of the sofa.


So, today's figure for newly reported cases is 22,961 (which is huge, but slightly misleading).

Also, looking at the cases by date of test, they are running at over 8000 per day for England. (Though, looking at the jump of 3000 cases on 28th September, I think there may either be quite a few more lost results to be found, or there's something else odd going on.)

ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ovid-19-europe
https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status...46638915706880

Quote:
In the UK the number of cases rose rapidly.
But the public – and authorities – are only learning this now because these cases were only published now as a backlog.

The reason was apparently that the database is managed in Excel and the number of columns had reached the maximum.

Here is the article https://dailymail.co.uk/news/article...el-glitch.html

Glad that they are apparently now working on a solution. Not one, but several Excel spreadsheets…
Excerpts embedded in tweets.

But, I mean, seriously - this whole thing is because they don't know how to use Microsoft Office properly.
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Old 5th October 2020, 02:41 AM   #1436
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https://twitter.com/hewitson10/statu...18487682596864

Quote:
Retweet the **** out of this from Sky News just now

PHE are not happy that they are being used as a punching bag for every single testing fiasco from dido Harding & #SercoTestAndTrace

Public Health England are being used as scapegoats

#BBCBreakfast #ToryIncompetence
Footage embedded in tweet.
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Old 5th October 2020, 02:57 AM   #1437
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16,000 covid cases omitted from the official data because an Excel spreadsheet failed to upload onto an Access database

Test and trace system is using Microsoft office to manage the UK's data.

How many millions did they pay for it?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 5th October 2020 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 5th October 2020, 02:58 AM   #1438
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Maybe it's a 2003 version of Excel with a 64,000 line limit. lol
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Old 5th October 2020, 03:25 AM   #1439
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As someone on twitter put it - this proves exactly why unqualified people shouldn't be put in charge of complex operations. That's especially true if lives are at stake, which is the case here since those 16,000 names didn't get forwarded to what passes for a track & trace system in this country.
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Old 5th October 2020, 03:40 AM   #1440
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It's the fault of Bill Gates after all!
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