IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus

Closed Thread
Old 14th January 2021, 08:31 AM   #3121
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,414
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Funny you should say that, that's what happened the last time I holidayed in Wales.

And the time before, come to think of it.

The triumph of hope over experience, I think it's called.
If you go to Wales on holiday expecting it not to rain, you're missing the point of Wales.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th January 2021, 09:01 AM   #3122
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,743
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'd rather we worried about the UK variant that is here rather than getting het up about those pesky foreigners yet again.

Given we are managing to record more daily deaths than Brazil (even though its 3.5 times our population and nobody there is really giving a crap about COVID regs) it would appear that it is Brazil that should be banning flights from the UK rather than vice versa.
Going to disagree - if we get the Brazilian variant as well... given how we are handling our special virus - we may as well just switch the lights off.

But not to worry - apparently it is going to be fine, the government has negotiated with the Brazilian variant to not to try to come to the UK for a few more days.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th January 2021, 09:03 AM   #3123
wobs
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hull
Posts: 2,338
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
God I wish I could believe in god right now, I’d be able to pray!

Yesterday Johnson was asked before a committee of MPs what he was doing to stop the Brazilian variant coming into the UK, he was totally unprepared for the question and didn’t have a clue - but he knew they were doing something...

Lo and behold we find today is the first time they’ve discussed it and they are trying to work out what they can do.... so he lied yesterday to the committee, it could already be here and the idea of immediately stopping flights from Brazil seems to have escaped the combined brains of our government...

As they say you really couldn’t make this up - quote below is from a breaking news alert from the Independent:
UK now bans people from South America (other than Brits returning home.)

The list of countries is extensive.
Brazil
Argentina
Bolivia
Peru
Cape Verde
Chile
Columbia
Equador
French Guiana
Guiana
Suriname
Panama
Paraguay
Uraguay
Venezuala

Forgive the spelling on some of these.

Edit: And Portugal!
Edit2: Hauliers from Portugal exempt
__________________
"To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."

Last edited by wobs; 14th January 2021 at 09:13 AM.
wobs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th January 2021, 09:34 AM   #3124
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,896
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
God I wish I could believe in god right now, Iíd be able to pray!

Yesterday Johnson was asked before a committee of MPs what he was doing to stop the Brazilian variant coming into the UK, he was totally unprepared for the question and didnít have a clue - but he knew they were doing something...

Lo and behold we find today is the first time theyíve discussed it and they are trying to work out what they can do.... so he lied yesterday to the committee, it could already be here and the idea of immediately stopping flights from Brazil seems to have escaped the combined brains of our government...

As they say you really couldnít make this up - quote below is from a breaking news alert from the Independent:
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Iíve been trying to be optimistic but I just canít help thinking they are going to totally screw-up the chance the vaccines give us at pretty much eradicating the virus.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
BBC Politics
Free school meals will not be extended over half term in England
"These are battles which should not have to be repeatedly fought," says teachers' union
http://bbc.in/38IfP9l

Keeping on the theme of making the same mistakes

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...and-is-madness
Quote:
A plan to discharge Covid patients from hospitals into care homes without tests has been branded ďmadnessĒ by care home providers who warned the move risks a repeat of last springís crisis, which was partly fuelled by pressure to relieve the NHS.
Yes, I did check the date of the story.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
My thoughts also, although I'm getting pelters in the other thread for having the temerity to believe we should even bother trying to eliminate the virus at community level. It's impossible apparently (even though we already did it once, and without any vaccine at that) so we should just be reconciled to the infection always being present.

Like polio was last century, or even measles come to that. We haven't made them extinct worldwide yet so obviously local elimination at national level can't be done and we shouldn't even have tried.
You cannot have a stable, "acceptable" level of transmission where R is not less than 1. If cases are not falling, you need to increase restrictions, otherwise, it's like saying, "I just stepped an inch over the cliff edge"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th January 2021, 10:01 AM   #3125
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,194
The argument was really about talking heads saying the virus will inevitably become endemic and making no plans to use the vaccine to embark on a systematic programme of elimination. I really worry that all this fatalism and nay-saying will again turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy, just as it did last year with the insistence that it couldn't be stopped - except it turned out that it could.

If the vaccine gets R significantly below one and it stays there with tolerable levels of restriction, there is every hope of eventually hunting down the remaining pockets of transmission and stamping them out. Compulsory travel vaccination should then keep new introductions at a level where they also can be stamped on fast if they should happen to manage to transmit in a vaccinated population.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th January 2021, 03:25 PM   #3126
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32,650
Boris Johnson’s plans to test millions of schoolchildren for coronavirus every week appear to be in disarray after the UK regulator refused to formally approve the daily testing of pupils in England, the Guardian has learned.

The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) told the government on Tuesday it had not authorised the daily use of 30-minute tests due to concerns that they give people false reassurance if they test negative.

This could lead to pupils staying in school and potentially spreading the virus when they should be self-isolating.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ols-in-england
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 01:14 AM   #3127
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,591
It's a national disgrace

If we'd had a government which wasn't frightened to do the right, but unpopular, thing we could be in the same position as Australia or New Zealand right now (or Taiwan, but there are much larger cultural differences) but instead we've had one of the worst responses both from a public health and an economic perspective.

IMO the worst things are:
  • The lack of willingness to follow scientific advice - choosing instead to find scientific advisors who support the view of your political advisors
  • The unwillingness to implement a proper lockdown
  • Continually changing the rules to court the approval of the group of spoiled "children" who inhabit this sceptered isle
  • The continual mixed messaging
  • The repeated u-turns
  • The insistence of inventing things from scratch (and enriching your mates in the process) rather than using established processes and organisations
  • Grandiose, unachievable, schemes like Project Moonshot and testing all kids in schools* which uselessly use resources, distract from the bread and butter activities and actually make things worse
  • Assigning incompetents at every level

It's utterly pathetic and I wish that the British electorate remember how badly we've been served. Unfortunately people will simply be so grateful when things get back to (near) normal that the right wing media will be able to spin it as a great success.


* - a friend who is a teacher in England says that her school received hundreds of testing kits in advance of the new term. Unfortunately only half of each kit was delivered so they were absolutely useless. "Fortunately" the government u-tuned again and school was postponed.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 02:41 AM   #3128
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,591
Meanwhile, as has been pointed out upthread, the Conservatives seem to be determined to be Dickensian w.r.t. their policies on child hunger.

Quote:
Marcus Rashford and a group of celebrity chefs and campaigners have called on Boris Johnson to review the government's free school meals policy.

The group, including Jamie Oliver, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall and Tom Kerridge, have written to the PM asking him to "fix" the system long-term.

They called for a strategy to help "end child food poverty" before the summer holidays.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55670096
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 02:54 AM   #3129
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,771
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Going to disagree - if we get the Brazilian variant as well... given how we are handling our special virus - we may as well just switch the lights off.

But not to worry - apparently it is going to be fine, the government has negotiated with the Brazilian variant to not to try to come to the UK for a few more days.
I'm no epidemiologist but it seems to me that if we took the proper stops to control the UK virus spreading then these would by default also stop the Brazilian variant spreading. There isn't any fundamental difference between the variants as far as I can see that would make the required actions any different.

They seem confident that the vaccine will work against all strains but even if not then it seems that these different variants will get here one way or another and then what?

Maybe I'm just cynical but after decades of blaming everything on foreigners it gets my heckles up when I see the Daily Mail once again pointing at people who talk funny and saying they are the problem.

The time to stop people coming in is when you don't have the virus and others do. Even then it can only ever be temporary. |Taking these actions now just seems like pandering and it's fairly easy to cancel flights from far away lands rather than take real action.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 02:55 AM   #3130
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,771
Originally Posted by wobs View Post
UK now bans people from South America (other than Brits returning home.)

The list of countries is extensive.
Brazil
Argentina
Bolivia
Peru
Cape Verde
Chile
Columbia
Equador
French Guiana
Guiana
Suriname
Panama
Paraguay
Uraguay
Venezuala

Forgive the spelling on some of these.

Edit: And Portugal!
Edit2: Hauliers from Portugal exempt
Because Brits and truck drivers are immune? To my mind it makes a mockery of the regs if you make exemptions.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 03:02 AM   #3131
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,591
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Because Brits and truck drivers are immune? To my mind it makes a mockery of the regs if you make exemptions.
I think that there's firm precedent for allowing citizens to return - even New Zealand allowed that - but IMO rather than merely self-isolating, they should be placed in quarantine in a separate facility where their compliance can be checked/assured.

The whole haulier thing is another issue entirely. IMO the UK government could have made themselves very popular with the "little Englanders" by insisting that trailers and containers were shipped and that hauling was done by UK hauliers at some point early in the pandemic. It would have caused chaos for sure but that's chaos which would have happened anyway.


edited to add....

But of course forcing people into quarantine facilities would have been unpopular and the UK government is more worried about generating positive headlines than it is about keeping the UK population alive.

Last edited by The Don; 15th January 2021 at 03:03 AM.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 03:22 AM   #3132
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,896
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Boris Johnsonís plans to test millions of schoolchildren for coronavirus every week appear to be in disarray after the UK regulator refused to formally approve the daily testing of pupils in England, the Guardian has learned.

The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) told the government on Tuesday it had not authorised the daily use of 30-minute tests due to concerns that they give people false reassurance if they test negative.

This could lead to pupils staying in school and potentially spreading the virus when they should be self-isolating.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ols-in-england
Indeed. The best figures we have are about a 78% detection rate, with trained medical personnel, which is sufficient for rapid surveys of prevalence and maybe finding otherwise undetected hotspots but definitely not enough to say that individuals are safe, which is what institutions with hundreds of people will need.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 03:24 AM   #3133
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,896
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'm no epidemiologist but it seems to me that if we took the proper stops to control the UK virus spreading then these would by default also stop the Brazilian variant spreading. There isn't any fundamental difference between the variants as far as I can see that would make the required actions any different.

They seem confident that the vaccine will work against all strains but even if not then it seems that these different variants will get here one way or another and then what?

Maybe I'm just cynical but after decades of blaming everything on foreigners it gets my heckles up when I see the Daily Mail once again pointing at people who talk funny and saying they are the problem.

The time to stop people coming in is when you don't have the virus and others do. Even then it can only ever be temporary. |Taking these actions now just seems like pandering and it's fairly easy to cancel flights from far away lands rather than take real action.
I slightly disagree. Not stopping new cases coming in is ensuring that anything we do internally will fail. Especially if it is even more infectious
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 03:45 AM   #3134
GraculusTheGreenBird
Critical Thinker
 
GraculusTheGreenBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post

Maybe I'm just cynical but after decades of blaming everything on foreigners it gets my heckles up when I see the Daily Mail once again pointing at people who talk funny and saying they are the problem.

The time to stop people coming in is when you don't have the virus and others do. Even then it can only ever be temporary. |Taking these actions now just seems like pandering and it's fairly easy to cancel flights from far away lands rather than take real action.
No, the time to stop people coming in was yesterday. If not yesterday, it should have been December. If not then, it should have been the Summer. If not then, at the beginning when it was obvious what was happening.

It doesnt matter if they talk funny or proper, or are British or non-British, every day that people are allowed in without restrictions is another day that infected people reach the UK, start local clusters, and eventually cause people to die. Its all very well arguing that its here now, but why on earth would that then stop you from making it worse?

Here in Hong Kong, we were right next to the epicenter, we were starting to get cases in January, and eventually closed the borders. No border controls are perfect, but we stopped it from spreading out of control. We are are a 10th the size of the UK but only had 26 cases yesterday, compared with the UK's 48,000.

The UK doesnt bother with any strict border controls it seems, its just given up. As an island, its entirely possible to stamp it out, but they seem unwilling to take the steps to do that.

There is now evidence apparently this new "Kent" variant was actually found in Italy earlier. So it could have been stopped from spreading in the UK at all, with proper border controls and quarantine..

It beggars belief.
GraculusTheGreenBird is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 03:46 AM   #3135
GraculusTheGreenBird
Critical Thinker
 
GraculusTheGreenBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I slightly disagree. Not stopping new cases coming in is ensuring that anything we do internally will fail. Especially if it is even more infectious
Exactly.

Every day, brand new local clusters are starting.
GraculusTheGreenBird is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 04:15 AM   #3136
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,743
Looks like one of the new Brazilian variants has not kept to its agreement with Johnson to not try to come to the U.K. until after tonight. Just not on old bean!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 05:32 AM   #3137
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32,650
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I think that there's firm precedent for allowing citizens to return - even New Zealand allowed that - but IMO rather than merely self-isolating, they should be placed in quarantine in a separate facility where their compliance can be checked/assured.

The whole haulier thing is another issue entirely. IMO the UK government could have made themselves very popular with the "little Englanders" by insisting that trailers and containers were shipped and that hauling was done by UK hauliers at some point early in the pandemic. It would have caused chaos for sure but that's chaos which would have happened anyway.


edited to add....

But of course forcing people into quarantine facilities would have been unpopular and the UK government is more worried about generating positive headlines than it is about keeping the UK population alive.
A lot of unaccompanied trailers do come across, Even Teesport has a couple of Roro cargo ships every day, they are on the Zeebrugge run. One of them the 'Norstream' is just coming in as I am writing this this.
Teesport has three Roro berths.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 05:38 AM   #3138
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32,650
Grant Shapps, transport secretary, asked if people should book summer holidays:

“I’m the last person you should take this advice from, don’t take travel advice from me.”
BBC radio 4 Today
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 06:47 AM   #3139
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,591
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Grant Shapps, transport secretary, asked if people should book summer holidays:

ďIím the last person you should take this advice from, donít take travel advice from me.Ē
BBC radio 4 Today
It's a fair comment. If you're looking for leadership and guidance, don't look to the government. It's much better to look to Premiership footballers instead.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 07:15 AM   #3140
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,771
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I slightly disagree. Not stopping new cases coming in is ensuring that anything we do internally will fail. Especially if it is even more infectious
I'm not really seeing how that would be the case. We must be talking about very low numbers of visitors and an even lower numbers of cases.

It seems like management by headline again.

If we were managing our own business then there might be a case but we are worse than pretty much anywhere on the planet right now.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 07:22 AM   #3141
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,771
Originally Posted by GraculusTheGreenBird View Post
Its all very well arguing that its here now, but why on earth would that then stop you from making it worse?
Well the thing is that it IS the here and now. It's fine to say what should have been done a year ago but it wasn't. And banning flights from Brazil isn't going to stop a new variant coming from Italy, or China, or Russia or anywhere else. And in any case we already have these new variants here.

What we need is a plan to get things under control not a policy of jumping on half measures with a collander of exemptions based on what the Daily Mail is reporting today.

If I remember rightly HK was and is actually quarantining people properly. But we choose not to.

Meanwhile the holiday companies are encouraging people from the UK to head all over the world and spread whatever they lurgy they have.

It's not joined up at all.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 07:59 AM   #3142
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,194
We should have done these things in the summer when the virus was suppressed (almost eliminated in Scotland). Instead we were told that it was fine to travel and there was very little restriction on incoming travellers. Then when the inevitable happened there was a shrug of the Leitch shoulders, saying well it was inevitable when we started to travel again, as if not travelling hadn't been an option in the summer.

I agree it's a bit pointless now, although I suppose a precedent for restricting travel could be useful as things progress.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 09:29 AM   #3143
Lothian
should be banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 16,218
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
We should have done these things in the summer when the virus was suppressed (almost eliminated in Scotland). Instead we were told that it was fine to travel and there was very little restriction on incoming travellers. Then when the inevitable happened there was a shrug of the Leitch shoulders, saying well it was inevitable when we started to travel again, as if not travelling hadn't been an option in the summer.

I agree it's a bit pointless now, although I suppose a precedent for restricting travel could be useful as things progress.
Apart from the countries which did have restrictions on travel, tight testing and quarantining and consequently minimal if any Covid transmission, what evidence is there that this would help?
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 09:44 AM   #3144
Ulf Nereng
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 597
Clearly, what is needed here is a big randomized, double-blind test, where some countries are chosen at random to have no travel restrictions or quarantines at all and an equal number of countries with full restrcitions and quarantines. The inhabitants of the participating countries must wear blindfolds and earmuffs so that they can't know what applies for them!
Ulf Nereng is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 01:22 PM   #3145
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,694
Jean Freeman has really screwed up. Apparently (however it was fixed) the UK had got preferential access to European supplies of vaccine; which is why EU is complaining it has insufficient and the UK has sufficient. Having leaked this there is considerable concern that the UK will lose promised supplies of vaccine now that other countries know how much vaccine the UK is getting and will put pressure on particularly Pfizer to supply proportionately to the EU.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 01:31 PM   #3146
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,562
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's a fair comment. If you're looking for leadership and guidance, don't look to the government. It's much better to look to Premiership footballers instead.
Well if you are looking into travelling perhaps it would be better to speak to a coach than a player...

...I'll get my coat.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 01:33 PM   #3147
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,694
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
We should have done these things in the summer when the virus was suppressed (almost eliminated in Scotland). Instead we were told that it was fine to travel and there was very little restriction on incoming travellers. Then when the inevitable happened there was a shrug of the Leitch shoulders, saying well it was inevitable when we started to travel again, as if not travelling hadn't been an option in the summer.

I agree it's a bit pointless now, although I suppose a precedent for restricting travel could be useful as things progress.
Perhaps the best time would have been in early spring 2020 when the bulk of the virus was brought into the UK from those on skiing holidays in Europe. The biggest single failure in the UK response to covid was the early focus on testing only those from China, allowing thousands of people to return to the UK from Europe carrying the virus but preventing them from being tested for it as they did not meet the case definition and thus were ineligible for testing. The opportunity to control the virus (Rolfe's elimination) was lost in January and February.

I was under the impression (and no doubt some will correct me) that continued participation in the EU free travel area in 2020 considerably inhibited the legal ability to block travel from the EU. (This is not a pro-Brexit argument; to be clear I think leaving the EU was stupid.)

I do agree it seems pointless to introduce travel controls at the peak of the UK epidemic. But I guess introducing in a few days time might fit with a decline in the outbreak and be more justifiable.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 01:39 PM   #3148
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32,650
It didn't seem to stop the other EU countries blocking travel.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 01:51 PM   #3149
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32,650
Congratulations to Boris for announcing a policy which any sensible leader would have done 9 months ago. I'm sure the 100,000 dead are grateful they were allowed to jet off for a last holiday before they died.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 02:21 PM   #3150
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,821
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Jean Freeman has really screwed up. Apparently (however it was fixed) the UK had got preferential access to European supplies of vaccine; which is why EU is complaining it has insufficient and the UK has sufficient. Having leaked this there is considerable concern that the UK will lose promised supplies of vaccine now that other countries know how much vaccine the UK is getting and will put pressure on particularly Pfizer to supply proportionately to the EU.
In case anyone else is wondering who Jeane Freeman is, see this story.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 03:50 PM   #3151
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 4,694
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It didn't seem to stop the other EU countries blocking travel.
I don't think they did within the EU? They may have had some testing restrictions, but they were not allowed a travel ban with regard to EU citizens.

Since the major source of transmission to the UK originally was from Europe this is the most relevant. Very little Covid -19 has been imported into the UK from China, Australia, New Zealand, Africa, even the US etc. The vast majority was from the EU. One of the principles of the EU is free movement of peoples. If the UK allowed UK citizens to enter the UK they had to allow EU citizens to enter the UK. I think at the critical point early 2020 with thousands of families on holiday in Europe preventing their return or even quarantining for 14 days would have been practically impossible. I suspect there was not then the resources available to test everyone prior to return (or even after return).
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 05:26 PM   #3152
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,194
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Perhaps the best time would have been in early spring 2020 when the bulk of the virus was brought into the UK from those on skiing holidays in Europe. The biggest single failure in the UK response to covid was the early focus on testing only those from China, allowing thousands of people to return to the UK from Europe carrying the virus but preventing them from being tested for it as they did not meet the case definition and thus were ineligible for testing. The opportunity to control the virus (Rolfe's elimination) was lost in January and February.

I was under the impression (and no doubt some will correct me) that continued participation in the EU free travel area in 2020 considerably inhibited the legal ability to block travel from the EU. (This is not a pro-Brexit argument; to be clear I think leaving the EU was stupid.)

I do agree it seems pointless to introduce travel controls at the peak of the UK epidemic. But I guess introducing in a few days time might fit with a decline in the outbreak and be more justifiable.

Well that's absolutely true, but I was taking it that we had been too stupid and lacking in foresight to do the right thing then, and commenting that we had a second chance in the summer when we had no excuse about being taken by surprise and not knowing how easily the virus would spread, and we still blew it and made the same mistake all over again.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th January 2021, 05:27 PM   #3153
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,194
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Jean Freeman has really screwed up. Apparently (however it was fixed) the UK had got preferential access to European supplies of vaccine; which is why EU is complaining it has insufficient and the UK has sufficient. Having leaked this there is considerable concern that the UK will lose promised supplies of vaccine now that other countries know how much vaccine the UK is getting and will put pressure on particularly Pfizer to supply proportionately to the EU.

She's an idiot.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2021, 02:38 AM   #3154
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,821
I can't remember which thread I saw it in, someone was wondering how they would be contacted to have the vaccine as they hadn't registered with a GP. The answer is, they won't be.
From the NHS website:

Quote:
Who can get the COVID-19 vaccine
The NHS is currently offering the COVID-19 vaccine to people most at risk from coronavirus.

In England, the vaccine is being offered in some hospitals and pharmacies, at hundreds of local vaccination centres run by GPs and at larger vaccination centres. More centres are opening all the time.

It's being given to:
  • people aged 80 and over
  • people who live or work in care homes
  • health and social care workers at high risk
You also need to be registered with a GP surgery in England. You can register with a GP if you do not have one.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2021, 03:38 AM   #3155
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,771
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I can't remember which thread I saw it in, someone was wondering how they would be contacted to have the vaccine as they hadn't registered with a GP. The answer is, they won't be.
From the NHS website:
In fairness I don't think that's too bad a requirement at least for the time being. While a lot of people aren't registered with a GP pretty much all of those in the vulnerable groups receiving the vaccine currently will be.

The only concern would be people who maybe have an old address or contact info on file.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2021, 04:30 AM   #3156
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,743
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
...snip...

I was under the impression (and no doubt some will correct me) that continued participation in the EU free travel area in 2020 considerably inhibited the legal ability to block travel from the EU. (This is not a pro-Brexit argument; to be clear I think leaving the EU was stupid.)

...snip....
Goodness knows where that idea came from, I’ve heard it from other people as well. Italy closed its borders in February and the news was plastered all over our media and on TV news reports, come the first lockdown in the UK several countries in Europe had already closed their borders, and again it was all over the news media.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2021, 05:00 AM   #3157
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,591
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I can't remember which thread I saw it in, someone was wondering how they would be contacted to have the vaccine as they hadn't registered with a GP. The answer is, they won't be.
From the NHS website:
That's one of the reasons why I think the UK's vaccine programme is doomed to failure. The others are general incompetence, a failure to deliver the second vaccine in a timely fashion, a significant number of people refusing the vaccine and an over-estimation of the effectiveness of the vaccine (especially how long immunity lasts and how effective it is at protecting from new variants).

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Goodness knows where that idea came from, I’ve heard it from other people as well. Italy closed its borders in February and the news was plastered all over our media and on TV news reports, come the first lockdown in the UK several countries in Europe had already closed their borders, and again it was all over the news media.
It's the usual Brexiteer "the reason to leave the EU is they won't let us do 'X'" only to have it pointed out that other EU countries do 'X'. Other examples include:

- Blue passports
- State support/ownership of key industries
- Banana shapes and numbers
- Access to welfare benefits for new immigrants.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2021, 05:17 AM   #3158
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,434
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I can't remember which thread I saw it in, someone was wondering how they would be contacted to have the vaccine as they hadn't registered with a GP. The answer is, they won't be.
From the NHS website:
How many people aren't registered with a GP?
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2021, 07:17 AM   #3159
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,821
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
How many people aren't registered with a GP?
I have no idea, but someone here was saying they weren't.

ETA: Here you go.
Quote:
60,606,345
Patients Registered at GP practices in England as at 1 January 2021
Which is slightly more than the latest figure I could find for the population of England...
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20

Last edited by zooterkin; 16th January 2021 at 07:20 AM.
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th January 2021, 08:52 AM   #3160
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,771
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I have no idea, but someone here was saying they weren't.

ETA: Here you go.

Which is slightly more than the latest figure I could find for the population of England...
You aren't the only one who has no idea. Nobody does.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/fe...st-news-798128
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.