Continuation Covid-19 and Politics pt 2

[sphenisc]

Has Boris been arrested yet?

[Lothian]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The Isle of Man have been putting people in jail for breaching quarantine. Remind me, how many cases are there on the island?

About half the number of cases per 1000 population compared to the rest of the UK. Which according to my chart put it in the 'chronic mismanagement' category

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by sphenisc

Has Boris been arrested yet?

No, he's busy infecting Scotland today.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

And without wanting to be a dick about it I'm not in a position to be able to self-isolate for a couple of weeks everytime someone I might have walked past on the street sneezes.

Unless I have symptoms I am probably not going to do it and certainly not more than once.

Not being funny, but suppose you get infected by someone who also is 'not in a position to be able to self-isolate for a couple of weeks everytime someone I might have walked past on the street sneezes' and you have to take time off anyway because of how ill you feel, would you not be thinking this other guy was a selfish covidiot for passing it on to you, instead of isolating?

Not judging you but personal is political. One has to think of the common good. Every personal choice you make is also a political one.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Darat

And he needs give a nod and a wink for his next chance of trying for leadership.

It is pure politics for Gove, I think Gove gives a little prayer every night to be more and more like Peter Mandelson.

At least Mandelson didn't even hide that he was a spin doctor.

The real horror story here is that were Alex Johnson to resign (no-one calls him Boris except the mass media) Gove will be key to replace him?

It's like a Kafka novel. If not Gove...then Rabb...or 'wealth tax for all' - 'eat out to help out' Sunak...or heaven forfend! Priti Patel or Robert Jenrick...Nightmare.

[Carrot Flower King]

Originally Posted by Wudang

Fines appeal to this current government because they can be written off by the wealthy as an inconvenience whereas jail time cannot.

I think other factors might also be at play...

When my sister was running the haematology ward at Kings in That There London she more than once had to call the police to disturbances on the ward. Thinks: sickle cell anaemia patients; drug dealers; near Brixton...The hospital authorites and the local police were always happy to intervene and make arrests then. I wonder why?

[Rolfe]

Point of information. Nobody is asked to self-isolate simply because they walked past someone in the street who sneezed. Not even if that person was going down with covid and not even if they sneezed directly into your unmasked face (which is a real possibility of infection transfer). You have to be within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for at least 15 minutes for a self-isolation code to be pinged.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Not being funny, but suppose you get infected by someone who also is 'not in a position to be able to self-isolate for a couple of weeks everytime someone I might have walked past on the street sneezes' and you have to take time off anyway because of how ill you feel, would you not be thinking this other guy was a selfish covidiot for passing it on to you, instead of isolating?

Possibly I would. But I wouldn't be in a position to know if they were actually a COVIDiot or just someone else who was in a difficult position so whether or not I let my judgemental side have some time in charge would be neither here nor there in the big scheme of things.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Possibly I would. But I wouldn't be in a position to know if they were actually a COVIDiot or just someone else who was in a difficult position so whether or not I let my judgemental side have some time in charge would be neither here nor there in the big scheme of things.

Nicely sidestepped.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Point of information. Nobody is asked to self-isolate simply because they walked past someone in the street who sneezed. Not even if that person was going down with covid and not even if they sneezed directly into your unmasked face (which is a real possibility of infection transfer). You have to be within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for at least 15 minutes for a self-isolation code to be pinged.

I personally have no idea how the alert system works and who is or isn't being flagged up and to what extent that translates to a genuine risk of the virus or a 'better safe than sorry' warning.

Which I guess is one of the reasons why I wouldn't just drop everything if I did get an alert.

I don't think I have been within 2m of anyone for 15 minutes or more since March 2020 so if that's the criteria then I won't ever be alerted.

Who makes that determination though? If a customer for example says I had been and I'm sure I haven't been then who is right?

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Nicely sidestepped.

You asked me what I would think... and what I would think is irrelevant. If you wanted make a different point about the common good then you could have made it without the hypothetical about me and my thoughts

If you want to ask about the common good then you might want to consider whether such a thing exists and what a 'common good' solution would actually look like.

It's certainly not shaming people who are in difficult situations into making their situations worse. If you want people in difficult situations to stay home then you make it easier for them to stay home and via the common good of taxation you put the necessary things in place to support that.

And you also enforce the rules on big businesses actually making employees who can work from home work from home, not allow half the people to send their kids to school anyway because it's easier than teaching them at home, don't open the pubs because Wetherspoons decides they need to be earning money and actually 1m is enough distance, and a million other things that the Tories and the people who voted them into office are responsible for.

Common Good? If I close my business down and can't pay the mortgage who is going to help me out? I already know the answer to that one. Nobody!

So yeah any decision I make will be personal and based on what is the right thing for me given all the circumstances. Would i feel bad about it if I had to? I probably would. But should I feel worse about it than the people who went all over the place visiting family at Xmas when I stayed home alone? Or the hoards of people who were out playing maskless in the snow with their kids on Sunday?

[Rolfe]

If you're carrying the app on your phone it won't ping you unless the 15-minute contact time has been triggered. If you are named as a possible contact to a contact tracer then it's up to the contact tracer to establish whether the contact was enough to make virus transmission likely.

You can ask questions. One guy who hadn't been out at all was pinged by the phone app because a couple in the flat next to him or below him had tested positive. Once it was established that there had been a solid wall between him and the infected people he was told it was fine, no need to isolate.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Or the hoards of people who were out playing maskless in the snow with their kids on Sunday?

Another point of information. That is safe behaviour. Do not worry about what anyone is doing out of doors, the amount of transmission that occurs in the open air is not enough to keep this epidemic going for more than about ten minutes.

[sphenisc]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

No, he's busy infecting Scotland today.

An apparently illegal act, so why the hell not?

[Captain_Swoop]

According to the Telegraph the travel restrictions are human rights violations apparently.
In the UK, the right to free movement at home and across borders, during peacetime, is enshrined in article 42 of the Magna Carta, this includes an Englishman having to have a passport or not being allowed in to the EU post brexit.
Who knew?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...y-travel-bans/

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

According to the Telegraph the travel restrictions are human rights violations apparently.
In the UK, the right to free movement at home and across borders, during peacetime, is enshrined in article 42 of the Magna Carta, this includes an Englishman having to have a passport or not being allowed in to the EU post brexit.
Who knew?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...y-travel-bans/

Not so. The Telegraph is p!sspoor journalism these days. The government passed an Act of Parliament giving it special powers in relation to Covid19. DAILY TELEGRAPH: pay attention to what's going on!

[Captain_Swoop]

Remember the Ministerial Code.
1 This is not the time for an enquiry.
2 I can't talk about the ongoing inquiry.
3 We need to put this behind us.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

I think other factors might also be at play...

When my sister was running the haematology ward at Kings in That There London she more than once had to call the police to disturbances on the ward. Thinks: sickle cell anaemia patients; drug dealers; near Brixton...The hospital authorites and the local police were always happy to intervene and make arrests then. I wonder why?

Is your sister hot?

The chance to chat up some nurses always makes call outs to hospitals popular with the boys in blue! (Also the girls in blue - seem to remember a doc/cop couple in lip service.)

[Vixen]

A good explanation of the AstraZeneca / EU conflict here, on this threadreader:

Quote:

My understanding of AstraZeneca's EU doses:
- contract signed in August
- EU expected over 100 mln doses delivered by end-March, possibly 120 mln
- in early Dec, AZ revised down to 80 mln
- on Jan 22, AZ revised to 31 mln
- distributed proportionally: eg Ireland's share is ~1.1%
Meanwhile, on Jan 13, AstraZeneca chief Tom Keith-Roach told a UK parliament hearing it was scaling up vaccine deliveries "very rapidly" and by mid-Feb would be able to deliver two million doses to the UK every week.
Up to that point, 1.1 mln doses had been delivered to UK.
AZ and UK govt have represented UK doses as made in UK, and visa versa for EU.
However, on December 8, the UK's Vaccine Taskforce manufacturing lead Ian McCubbin told reporters that
"The initial supply... actually comes from the Netherlands and Germany."

...cont

So whilst the UK government are saying that the Wrexham production is for the first priority of Brits, it seems to be the case the UK got supplies from factories in the EU initially. It would appear to be the UK who has made this into a nationalistic issue.

IOW just because it is made in Britain doesn't mean it is exclusive to the Brits, as per the contracts signed.

Nor is it a British vaccine other than that Oxford Uni was the lead uni. The lead scientist was French AIUI and AstraZeneca itself is Swedish as well as British.

It doesn't appear to have got the Union Jack on the box as Matthew Hancock wanted.

[Garrison]

A spot of good news as another Vaccine appears to have successfully completed trials:

Covid-19: Novavax vaccine shows 89% efficacy in UK trials

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Vixen

A good explanation of the AstraZeneca / EU conflict here, on this threadreader:

...cont

So whilst the UK government are saying that the Wrexham production is for the first priority of Brits, it seems to be the case the UK got supplies from factories in the EU initially. It would appear to be the UK who has made this into a nationalistic issue.

IOW just because it is made in Britain doesn't mean it is exclusive to the Brits, as per the contracts signed.

Nor is it a British vaccine other than that Oxford Uni was the lead uni. The lead scientist was French AIUI and AstraZeneca itself is Swedish as well as British.

It doesn't appear to have got the Union Jack on the box as Matthew Hancock wanted.

A cynic might wonder what, er, 'inducements' might have been made to AstraZeneca to get them to favour the UK? Tasty contracts to come? Lordships?

The EU seem a tad miffed about the whole business.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by GlennB

A cynic might wonder what, er, 'inducements' might have been made to AstraZeneca to get them to favour the UK? Tasty contracts to come? Lordships?

The EU seem a tad miffed about the whole business.

Many a true word said in jest. Why do you think the EU sent officials around to the Belgian and Netherland sites? It was doing an audit. It would appear the UK got its early doses of the vaccine from these factories. Now it is saying that the Wrexham plant will be shortly churning out 2m a week for the UK. HOWEVER, it has told the EU it can only manage 31m of the original 100m signed for. IOW the EU suspects there is no actual shortage but a diversion of the supplies promised another client, the EU. Under contract law that would be a breach of contract if that was the case.

An analogy would be gazumping. You put in an offer for a house and sign a contract. The seller offers the house to someone else instead, for whatever reason best known to themselves. You have a case for breach of contract.

The EU paid £28m towards that Wrexham factory so that it could expand production.

[gypsyjackson]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Roger Helmer (Former Tory MEP) tweets

How reliable is this 100,000 figure? How many false positives? How many coincidentally died WITH Covid but not FROM Covid? How many represent hard-pressed doctors making a rushed judgement? How comparable are these data with other nations?

Helmer swapped to UKIP while I was in Brussels. He was one of the harder working UKIP MEPs, as it happens. Back then he was a climate change denier, NHS dissolution advocate, and a marital rape denier (IIRC), so not a surprise to see he is a Covid denier too.

ETA: my apologies. It seems rather than denying marital rape could exist, he wanted to draw a distinction between ‘stranger rape’ and ‘date rape’ on the grounds that if a woman agrees to a date with a man, she has to take partial responsibility if she is subsequently raped by him, on the grounds she has raised his expectations.

[gypsyjackson]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

According to the Telegraph the travel restrictions are human rights violations apparently.
In the UK, the right to free movement at home and across borders, during peacetime, is enshrined in article 42 of the Magna Carta, this includes an Englishman having to have a passport or not being allowed in to the EU post brexit.
Who knew?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...y-travel-bans/

Groan. ******* Magna Carta. I can’t read DT as paywalled, but I suspect it ignores history and/or facts. Clause, not article (though that is a nitpick), 42 of MC1215 removed the right of the king to prevent any person from leaving or re-entering England (nothing to do with free movement within the country, and it doesn’t mean they would be allowed to travel elsewhere).

In any event, it was effectively removed by the reissue of Magna Carta in 1216, which returned that right to the king. So if we were enjoying Covid in the 18 months between the two charters, then there might have been a tiny kernel of truth in it.

[Tolls]

A good rule of thumb I find is if someone claims Magna Carta gives them the right to do something then they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

I don't think any of any of them is still relevant.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Another point of information. That is safe behaviour. Do not worry about what anyone is doing out of doors, the amount of transmission that occurs in the open air is not enough to keep this epidemic going for more than about ten minutes.

And of course is totally ridiculous.
The visible to everyone means no transmission.
But behind closed doors...

[The Don]

Oh dear, it looks like the Welsh lockdown may be being relaxed in the next month. Too soon IMO, but I understand that the politicians are under considerable pressure.

Quote:

Some primary school children could begin a phased return to school from 22 February - just after half term - if Covid rates continue to fall, Wales' first minister has said.

Ministers have been under pressure to set out their plans for a return to face-to-face teaching.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55832971

It seems that it'll not just be schools, which is bad news.

Quote:

Mr Drakeford said, in three weeks' time, Wales "may be closer to alert level three restrictions than we are at the moment", provided things "continue to move in the right direction".

Alert level three would allow the reopening of schools, higher education, pubs and hospitality businesses - with rules on alcohol sales and opening times - and non-essential retail, among others.

Although re-reading that, he's not promising anything, he's just saying that we may be closer to lifting restrictions, not that it'll happen.

[The Don]

In other news, unsurprisingly being in an office with people for hours on end is a good way to spread Covid:

Quote:

More than 60 suspected Covid outbreaks in offices were recorded in the first two weeks of the current lockdown in England, a BBC investigation has found.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506

To put this into some kind of context:

Quote:

The data showed there were more than 500 outbreaks, or suspected outbreaks, in offices in the second half of 2020 - more than in supermarkets, construction sites, warehouses, restaurants and cafes combined.

[gypsyjackson]

Originally Posted by Tolls

A good rule of thumb I find is if someone claims Magna Carta gives them the right to do something then they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

I don't think any of any of them is still relevant.

I think clauses 1, 2 and 19 are still in force, plus a bit of another one, but would have to hit my books to find out! In general you are right, which is why I groan whenever Brexiteers or FOTLers mention it.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Another point of information. That is safe behaviour. Do not worry about what anyone is doing out of doors, the amount of transmission that occurs in the open air is not enough to keep this epidemic going for more than about ten minutes.

I'm not as confident as you on that one. Especially factoring in the before and after when they were all huddled into the supermarket, that they have all touched the same gate to get into the field, that kids were touching each others sledges etc.

Have to say, if that kind of behaviour ISN'T going to spread infection then I wonder what the hell is. There can't be that many wife-swapping parties going on, can there?

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by The Don

In other news, unsurprisingly being in an office with people for hours on end is a good way to spread Covid:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506

To put this into some kind of context:

And almost nobody actually needs to be in an office with other people for hours on end in this day and age...but there are many bosses including the odd billionaire ******** Brexiteer who still insist that working from home is a skive and are vehemently opposed to it.

[Carrot Flower King]

Originally Posted by Planigale

Is your sister hot?

The chance to chat up some nurses always makes call outs to hospitals popular with the boys in blue! (Also the girls in blue - seem to remember a doc/cop couple in lip service.)

You'd need to ask her husband...

My point, which wasn't subtly hidden, was about this being the Met in the early '90s. Although I do know/knew several police/nurse couples, including one lass I trained with.

[Carrot Flower King]

Oh, FFS!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-hospital-ward

Arrested for public nuisance? What about the assaults? The attempted kidnap? TRhe attempted murder? And all the rest?

And how long did it take to arrest him, despite video evidence being posted on-line? Let alone arresting him at the sodding hospital at the time...

Are our "authorities" taking this sort of thing at all seriously?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Oh, FFS!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-hospital-ward

Arrested for public nuisance? What about the assaults? The attempted kidnap? TRhe attempted murder? And all the rest?

And how long did it take to arrest him, despite video evidence being posted on-line? Let alone arresting him at the sodding hospital at the time...

Are our "authorities" taking this sort of thing at all seriously?

That would usually be up to the PS, the police arrested him for something that was 100% prosecutable and pretty much self evident, lets see if anything else happened.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

I'm not as confident as you on that one. Especially factoring in the before and after when they were all huddled into the supermarket,

Which is entirely different behaviour from what you were describing. Different behaviour will have different risks.

Quote:

that they have all touched the same gate to get into the field,

Most of the gates to public parks and nature walks have been removed by my local council, to reduce this risk, though I don't think it's a particularly large one.

Quote:

that kids were touching each others sledges etc.

The parents should be more careful, then, if the kids don't normally play together anyway.

Quote:

Have to say, if that kind of behaviour ISN'T going to spread infection then I wonder what the hell is. There can't be that many wife-swapping parties going on, can there?

People working in offices, travelling on public transport, children in schools, spending time together indoors in breach of the rules...

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Oh, FFS!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-hospital-ward

Arrested for public nuisance? What about the assaults? The attempted kidnap? TRhe attempted murder? And all the rest?

And how long did it take to arrest him, despite video evidence being posted on-line? Let alone arresting him at the sodding hospital at the time...

Are our "authorities" taking this sort of thing at all seriously?

It depends on how outraged the tabloids and Telegraph are.

If they're angry about lack of compliance then the authorities will get right onto enforcement.

If they're furious about heavy-handed police restricting civil liberties then they won't.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Which is entirely different behaviour from what you were describing. Different behaviour will have different risks.

It was all part of the same behaviour though. Taking the kids out to play and then stopping off at the shop opposite on the way home.

Quote:

Most of the gates to public parks and nature walks have been removed by my local council, to reduce this risk, though I don't think it's a particularly large one.

This wasn't a public park but a private farmers field. In any case, the gates haven't been taken off the public parks here that I am aware of

Quote:

The parents should be more careful, then, if the kids don't normally play together anyway.

Well yes they should which was kind of my point.

Quote:

People working in offices, travelling on public transport, children in schools, spending time together indoors in breach of the rules...

People are supposed to be working at home, and schools are meant to be closed though. Which again was part of the point i made. If you want to point fingers then point them at billionaires telling their workers they still have to go to the office even though they could be working at home.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by The Don

It depends on how outraged the tabloids and Telegraph are.

If they're angry about lack of compliance then the authorities will get right onto enforcement.

If they're furious about heavy-handed police restricting civil liberties then they won't.

And if they swing violently back and forwards between the two then nothing will ever get done either way.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Mojo

EU threatens to block Covid vaccine exports amid AstraZeneca shortfall

EU threat will not impact Covid vaccine deliveries to UK, says minister

The AstraZeneca contract with the EU explicitly includes the UK as one of locations where they are able to produce vaccines for distribution in the EU and there seems to be no mention of that production being prioritized to the UK first.

Having signed another competing contract is not a legal excuse for failing to upholding ones contractual obligations nor is the order in which the contracts were signed relevant, unless this is in the contract which it does not appear to be.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

I'm not as confident as you on that one. Especially factoring in the before and after when they were all huddled into the supermarket, that they have all touched the same gate to get into the field, that kids were touching each others sledges etc.

Have to say, if that kind of behaviour ISN'T going to spread infection then I wonder what the hell is. There can't be that many wife-swapping parties going on, can there?

Huddling together in a supermarket is obviously a different matter. Gates into fields are extremely low-risk, as are sledges. Outdoor fomite transfer isn't a major driver of this epidemic.

Outdoor transmission seems to require talking to an infected person face to face (not distanced) for a significant amount of time. No doubt this happens, but it isn't a major issue compared to what's happening indoors.

Come on, you don't need to be at a wife-swapping party to be transmitting this indoors. People are going into each others houses and sitting together for a coffee or to watch TV or even for actual parties. This, together with indoor workplace transmission and to a lesser extent shops, is what is driving the epidemic.

If you see people out of doors, be glad they're outside in a pretty safe space doing pretty safe things, and not indoors in a stuffy poorly-ventilated room catching up on the latest gossip.