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Old 2nd May 2022, 11:22 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That happened to my homework sometimes.
And MY money, during some periods of my life.

Hans
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Old 2nd May 2022, 01:29 PM   #82
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My 7th grade English teacher fancied herself a Hippie so we occasionally had classes in interpretation of Beatles and Elton John lyrics and read Howl and Johnny Got His Gun for assignments. When Chariots Of The Gods was released we all had to go out and purchase a copy and she scheduled debates on each chapter. After we finished the book we had to do a 20-page report on some topic in pseudoscience or UFOlogy or cryptozoology. My friend and I teamed up to do a report on the Loch Ness Monster. What a waste. It's not like there was an Internet then and the libraries local to us were meager so we basically xeroxed encyclopedia articles and the three or four books we found that mentioned the topic and stretched it out fo twenty pages.

More pernicious that that in terms of pseudohistory, however, was our 8th grade Social Studies class in which (I only realized later) our three week units on Anthropology was out and out racism. We were taught that there were three distinct Races of Man - Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid - and were given assignments and tests in which we had to rank them in terms of intelligence, athletic ability, moral probity and a few other criteria. Essentially a neo-Agassiz approach. We had Asian and African-American kids in the class and actually spent class periods measuring each others' skulls, lips, eyes, fingers, etc. Appalling.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 02:17 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I guess it's not as if it was the last independent US aerospace project.

See also the Black Knight and Blue Streak projects.

where British designs looked like something out of Dan Dare.
Let's not forget the A-12 Avenger, aka the Flying Dorito, the US Navy miserably failed attempt at a futuristic carrier fighter in the 1980's.
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Old 7th May 2022, 08:46 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
My 7th grade English teacher fancied herself a Hippie so we occasionally had classes in interpretation of Beatles and Elton John lyrics and read Howl and Johnny Got His Gun for assignments. When Chariots Of The Gods was released we all had to go out and purchase a copy and she scheduled debates on each chapter. After we finished the book we had to do a 20-page report on some topic in pseudoscience or UFOlogy or cryptozoology. My friend and I teamed up to do a report on the Loch Ness Monster. What a waste. It's not like there was an Internet then and the libraries local to us were meager so we basically xeroxed encyclopedia articles and the three or four books we found that mentioned the topic and stretched it out fo twenty pages.

More pernicious that that in terms of pseudohistory, however, was our 8th grade Social Studies class in which (I only realized later) our three week units on Anthropology was out and out racism. We were taught that there were three distinct Races of Man - Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid - and were given assignments and tests in which we had to rank them in terms of intelligence, athletic ability, moral probity and a few other criteria. Essentially a neo-Agassiz approach. We had Asian and African-American kids in the class and actually spent class periods measuring each others' skulls, lips, eyes, fingers, etc. Appalling.
The first pragraph sounds like it could have been a interesting learning experience.

The second sounds like a nightmare dystopia level of awful.
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Old 7th May 2022, 09:17 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's not forget the A-12 Avenger, aka the Flying Dorito, the US Navy miserably failed attempt at a futuristic carrier fighter strike aircraft [no, not a bomber, really] in the 1980's.
Though the USAF also wanted some.
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Old 8th May 2022, 07:31 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The Exodus, I didn't believe in the miracles or anything, just that the Jews were in Egypt at some point and later driven out. Basically no evidence for any of it. At most, they were Levantine clients of the pharoahs at some point.
Originally Posted by Marras View Post
I haven't written Exodus completely out, yet. Obviously nothing that was anything like the account in the Bible ever happened. And it is almost as certain that the bulk of the people who become Israelites lived in Palestine for the whole time. But it is within the realms of possibility that some group was in Egypt and left from there against Egyptian wishes. Their story then became the foundation story for the whole Israel...

There is no hard evidence for it. Pretty much the only evidence for it is that the Israelites themselves believed it. The belief is old...

The belief in Egyptian captivity arose from somewhere. As far as I know, it is not a common origin story shared among many different peoples of the Levant. It seems to be unique for Israel. A "minimal Exodus" of a small group of people is one possible explanation how the story began.
I've seen people saying there's no basis for any of it anywhere, and never bought that, even when I didn't know what I now know to counter that claim, because it just didn't make sense for any people anywhere to just make up something like that to wrap up so much of their identity into.

But also, there are indeed signs of some of it coming from something real.

For one thing, "Moses" is an Egyptian name, also found as a component of some Pharaoh names (Tutmose, Ahmose, Rameses).

For the rest, it's helpful to keep in mind that the story in the Bible has a couple of subtle differences from popular conception. First, although it does have them getting enslaved eventually, it actually starts out almost the opposite way: the enslavement was Egypt's response to their being too successful and wealthy, too much of a threat to Egyptian rule/power. And, although most people now think of Egypt as having been trying to keep them in, that switches back & forth with other verses indicating that the Egyptians were actually driving them out. (Exodus even uses this as the explanation for why unleavened bread is such a big thing: because the choice was to get thrown out right now or get killed, they didn't have time to pack, so nobody took any leavening with them.)

And there is solid Egyptian corroboration for the presence of a powerful & threatening group of outsiders in northern Egypt. We even know from the Egyptians that they spoke a Northwest Semitic language (the subfamily that Hebrew is in) and that one of their kings was named Jacob. (Actually Yakovi, but it's really also Yakovi in Hebrew anyway.) They also favored a storm god over a sun god, which was alien to the Egyptians but perfectly normal in the ancient Levant, including some of the earliest depictions of Yahweh/Jehovah. They conquered northern Egypt and ruled it for the 15th dynasty, while actual Egyptian rulers only held part of what we now think of as southern Egypt, in the simultaneous 16th dynasty and part of the 17th. During the 17th, the Egyptians say they drove them out, ending the paradigm of two simultaneous dynasties in different parts of Egypt. They're called "Hyksos", which seems like it probably came from a combination of two Egyptian words meaning "foreign" and "invaders/conquerors".

It does not appear that an entire population was thus forced out or killed. More likely, it was just the ruling family or families and probably their higher-ranking officials & servants, with Hyksos commoners probably mostly staying and gradually blending in. There is evidence of a minority speaking a Semitic language in Egypt up to a few centuries later. I believe the Egyptian story also mentions some kind of natural calamity like an earthquake or a giant storm, but this is normally ignored because it was apparently Egyptian storytelling convention to link important human events with such (super)natural occurrences.

To me, that makes it look pretty straightforward that the Hyksos refugees or their descendants joined the Hebrews and brought with them the story of what had happened to them in Egypt. It would have been easier to fit in with them than with anybody else around because they were both Northwest Semitic tribes and might not have even been separated for more than a couple of centuries. This new "Hebrew" coalition apparently also included at least one other NWS tribe which had until then still been living as nomads, who would have brought with them the concept of having once lived in the wild for years & years, which would explain why the Bible has so much lingering in it instead of just going straight to the target.

Traditional dating of Bible stories had the Exodus happening around 1200 BCE (roughly when Troy fell to the Greeks and when the transition from Bronze Age to Iron Age was tipped off). But interpreting Exodus as a time-filtered version of the Hyksos side of the expulsion of the Hyksos requires that it happened when the Hyksos were expelled, which is more like 1600, solidly in the Bronze Age. But that's no problem to me, because they didn't write it til centuries later, by which time it would all have blended into "long ago" to them anyway. Also, the adjusted date solves another problem. Around 1200, Egypt ruled the Levant, so the story would have had them escaping from Egypt to... more Egypt... by crossing a border which wasn't a border because it was just a body of water in Egypt, with Egypt on both sides of it. But, around 1600, Egypt was smaller & weaker. An escape to the Levant then would have actually been an escape to someplace that really wasn't Egypt. Bonus: this date also puts it right around the eruption of Thera/Santorini, which has been proposed as the source of environmental disruption behind the Ten Plagues.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
They probably just grew out of the local philistine population.
Palestinian. The similarity of the names is not a coincidence, but it is misleading.

The oldest occurrence of any version of the name(s) is in Egyptian descriptions of some failed invasion attempts by foreigners whom they called the "Sea Peoples" because they came by boat over the sea. This was during the chaotic few centuries of transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, AKA the "Bronze Age Collapse", roughly 1200 or early 1100s to the 900s, during which the Sea Peoples also attacked others in the area. Nobody seems to have recognized them at the time. Egypt recorded several names for them which modern scholars have noticed bear resemblances to other identifiable names in hindsight: Shekelesh/Sicily, Shardan/Sardinia, Wekelesh and a particular subset of Greeks... Egypt also lists each group's fate; this one was annihilated, that one fled we know not where, that one was annihiliated too... and one called Peleset settled on the coast of what we would now call Israel/Palestine, although they hadn't come from there.

The "native" population in that area had already long been NWS speakers (Hebrews/Israelites/Canaanites, Phoenicians, Aramaeans), but the Philistines were not. Their sites can be identified by distinct artifacts from NWS-speakers' artifacts; their pottery in particular looks like Greek pottery. Also, some linguists have said that the handful of Philistine names we know of look like Indo-European names. However, by the 5th century BCE, the Greek version of their name was used by Herodotus to refer to the whole area and everybody in it, and their cultural identity seems to disappear soon after that under Assyrian rule, leaving the name to be applied to whoever else happens to have still been left around there at the time.

Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
The first Thanksgiving would have been in Virginia, of course. Jamestown was settled 16 years before Plymouth. Okay, that lot weren't as pious as the puritans and might not have made as much of a fuss.
Our modern Thanksgiving doesn't directly trace back to either colony. There's a discontinuity during which there was no such holiday til sometime in the 19th century, when it was created/revived to commemorate centuries-old history by then. (As a result, some of our idea of the kinds of food to associate with it is based on the 19th-century idea of how to have a feast; for example, Europeans didn't really accept potatoes til the 18th century.)

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The "Lost Cause" version of the Civil War.
How does the phrase "lost cause" not fit? They did lose, and I don't believe anybody takes seriously the idea that there was ever a realistic way for them to win. "Lost Cause" must have some other meaning stapled onto it in addition to the facts that it was a cause and it was a lost one.

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Old 9th May 2022, 05:03 AM   #87
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Pretty common one, but in my youth the history taught about WWII radically downplayed the importance of the Red Army in securing victory in the European theatre. Based on all the history documentaries and the common teaching, you'd think that the Soviets were the junior partner in that endeavor, when the truth is quite the opposite.

I know the Iron Curtain made sourcing histories of this conflict harder, and the Cold War made giving the Soviets the credit they were due a bit unpalatable, but it's still pretty wild how skewed the history of this conflict often is.

I think I was in college before I learned how vastly this conflict was misrepresented in popular media.
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Old 9th May 2022, 05:57 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Our modern Thanksgiving doesn't directly trace back to either colony. There's a discontinuity during which there was no such holiday til sometime in the 19th century, when it was created/revived to commemorate centuries-old history by then. (As a result, some of our idea of the kinds of food to associate with it is based on the 19th-century idea of how to have a feast; for example, Europeans didn't really accept potatoes til the 18th century.)

Back in 2006 there was a special "First Thanksgiving" themed episode of Iron Chef America in which the secret ingredient the chefs had to use was an assortment of foods that might have actually been eaten at the first Thanksgiving. Duck, lobster, heritage turkey, venison, leeks and walnuts.
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Old 9th May 2022, 06:22 AM   #89
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The modern concept of Thanksgiving was 100% just made up in 1940 when Butterball got a brand name for turkey.

Quick rule of thumb. 99% of hallowed ancient American traditions are just something that happened to a Baby Boomer more than twice during their formative years.
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Old 10th May 2022, 04:31 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The modern concept of Thanksgiving was 100% just made up in 1940 when Butterball got a brand name for turkey.

Quick rule of thumb. 99% of hallowed ancient American traditions are just something that happened to a Baby Boomer more than twice during their formative years.
Heh. Boomer nostalgia got turned into traditions. Gen X nostalgia got turned into Robot Chicken.
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Old 10th May 2022, 06:42 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Pretty common one, but in my youth the history taught about WWII radically downplayed the importance of the Red Army in securing victory in the European theatre. Based on all the history documentaries and the common teaching, you'd think that the Soviets were the junior partner in that endeavor, when the truth is quite the opposite.

I know the Iron Curtain made sourcing histories of this conflict harder, and the Cold War made giving the Soviets the credit they were due a bit unpalatable, but it's still pretty wild how skewed the history of this conflict often is.

I think I was in college before I learned how vastly this conflict was misrepresented in popular media.
Those same histories also downplayed how thoroughly, despicably complicit the Soviets were in starting the war. So it kind of evens out.

One scorpion turns on the other, then the other comes crying to the toad for help. Now we're saddled with a goddamn scorpion appreciation society. Boop to that. Go tell Poland about the big favors the Red Army did for them, or the Czech Republic. Or Germany.
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Old 10th May 2022, 06:50 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Those same histories also downplayed how thoroughly, despicably complicit the Soviets were in starting the war. So it kind of evens out.

One scorpion turns on the other, then the other comes crying to the toad for help. Now we're saddled with a goddamn scorpion appreciation society. Boop to that. Go tell Poland about the big favors the Red Army did for them, or the Czech Republic. Or Germany.
Why would anyone care what the Red Army did to vanquished Germany?
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:40 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why would anyone care what the Red Army did to vanquished Germany?
Or Ukraine?
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:43 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Or Ukraine?
Not sure your point. The countries sandwiched between Nazi Germany the Stalin's USSR were in a really bad way with no good options.

It's entirely possible to acknowledge the plain fact that the Red Army did the heavy lifting of destroying the Nazi empire without being a Stalin apologist. That's kinda my whole point about the history downplaying the USSR's importance in the conflict.
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:55 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not sure your point. The countries sandwiched between Nazi Germany the Stalin's USSR were in a really bad way with no good options.

It's entirely possible to acknowledge the plain fact that the Red Army did the heavy lifting of destroying the Nazi empire without being a Stalin apologist. That's kinda my whole point about the history downplaying the USSR's importance in the conflict.
Why do you think they did the 'heavy lifting'?
Maybe you have swung to believing a different 'pseudo history'.
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:56 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not sure your point. The countries sandwiched between Nazi Germany the Stalin's USSR were in a really bad way with no good options.

It's entirely possible to acknowledge the plain fact that the Red Army did the heavy lifting of destroying the Nazi empire without being a Stalin apologist. That's kinda my whole point about the history downplaying the USSR's importance in the conflict.
I think that theprestige's point is that they also did a lot of the enabling of the creation of the Nazi empire by attacking Poland in the first place
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:58 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why do you think they did the 'heavy lifting'?
Maybe you have swung to believing a different 'pseudo history'.
80% of German war casualties occurred on the Eastern front.
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Old 10th May 2022, 08:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that theprestige's point is that they also did a lot of the enabling of the creation of the Nazi empire by attacking Poland in the first place
Is this not well known? Stalin's refusal to believe Nazi Germany would betray their agreement, including outright refusing to believe reports of invasion as it was occurring, is pretty widely known. One of many blunders and miscalculations of Stalin, to say the least.
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Old 10th May 2022, 08:02 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is this not well known? Stalin's refusal to believe Nazi Germany would betray their agreement, including outright refusing to believe reports of invasion as it was occurring, is pretty widely known. One of many blunders and miscalculations of Stalin, to say the least.
Think you are getting a tad off topic - this thread isn't about the actual history but stuff we sort of believed in but only learned later on was pseudo history - like for example thinking there was an actual event "behind" exodus.
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Old 10th May 2022, 10:01 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
80% of German war casualties occurred on the Eastern front.
How does that mean the Soviets did the 'Heavy Lifting'?

Your figure includes the prisoners of war killed by the Russians. I suppose if all the prisoners taken in the West were killed it would rebalance the numbers somewhat.
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Old 10th May 2022, 10:15 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The modern concept of Thanksgiving was 100% just made up in 1940 when Butterball got a brand name for turkey.

Quick rule of thumb. 99% of hallowed ancient American traditions are just something that happened to a Baby Boomer more than twice during their formative years.
According to wiki the holiday involved turkey long before 1940. Although traditions did vary by state. Also, 1940 is before the first Boomer was even born.
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Old 10th May 2022, 10:25 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
According to wiki the holiday involved turkey long before 1940. Although traditions did vary by state. Also, 1940 is before the first Boomer was even born.
I was over simplifying and being flippant.

True "Thanksgiving" as some vague concept has been around for centuries, but it wasn't a Federal Holiday until in 1941 and turkey wasn't the primary dish into the 1950s when Butterball came around in I wanna say 1954 and started heavily pushing its turkeys in stores.
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Old 10th May 2022, 01:04 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why would anyone care what the Red Army did to vanquished Germany?
I wouldn't wish what the soviets did to east Germany on my worst enemy.

But way to miss the point: All the heavy lifting the Red Army did was purely because the Soviets allied with Hitler to start the war in the first place. So I'm not really interested in giving them a lot of credit for trying to end it when it blew up in their face.
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Old 10th May 2022, 01:05 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
80% of German war casualties occurred on the Eastern front.
That was Hitler, not Stalin.
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Old 10th May 2022, 08:26 PM   #105
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Old 11th May 2022, 02:39 AM   #106
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Old 11th May 2022, 06:30 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I used to believe that acupuncture and TCM had a long history in China.
Same for me and that Yoga as we know it had some long standing tradition too.
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Old 11th May 2022, 06:35 AM   #108
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I've noticed a lot of people seem to go through a sort of...

- Old school traditional religion
- New agey stuff
- Actual skepticism

... character arc (for lack of a better term.)
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Old 11th May 2022, 07:38 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wouldn't wish what the soviets did to east Germany on my worst enemy.

But way to miss the point: All the heavy lifting the Red Army did was purely because the Soviets allied with Hitler to start the war in the first place. So I'm not really interested in giving them a lot of credit for trying to end it when it blew up in their face.
We don't know that. No one knows what would've happened had the Soviets not signed Molotov-Ribbentrop. Most likely IMO, WW2 happens anyways, and the Soviets end up doing most of the dying anyways. Thats not to say it should be forgotten that they were aggressors in the war. Not only did they divide Poland, they annexed a chunk of Romania, Estonia, and invaded Finland.
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Old 11th May 2022, 09:02 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I used to believe that acupuncture and TCM had a long history in China.

I've no clue what TCM is, but I too used to believe --- still believe --- that acupuncture dates back centuries, maybe even millennia, in China. But of course, it isn't as if I really know much, or anything at all really, about the subject, so after reading your post I quickly fired up my google, and this is what the first reference I clicked open had to say: "...acupuncture has been practiced in China for more than 3000 years and was spread to Europe and (America) from the sixteenth to the nineteenth century...". (Link: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24215915/)

So it isn't like it's a (relatively) recent thing, like homeopathy. It does have a long history in China, apparently.
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Old 11th May 2022, 09:21 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I've no clue what TCM is,

Traditional Chinese Medicine. Every folk treatment under a single umbrella.

"TCM is said to be based on such texts as Huangdi Neijing (The Inner Canon of the Yellow Emperor), and Compendium of Materia Medica, a sixteenth century encyclopedic work, and includes various forms of herbal medicine, acupuncture, cupping therapy, gua sha, massage (tui na), bonesetter (die-da), exercise (qigong), and dietary therapy."
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Old 11th May 2022, 09:32 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Traditional Chinese Medicine. Every folk treatment under a single umbrella.

"TCM is said to be based on such texts as Huangdi Neijing (The Inner Canon of the Yellow Emperor), and Compendium of Materia Medica, a sixteenth century encyclopedic work, and includes various forms of herbal medicine, acupuncture, cupping therapy, gua sha, massage (tui na), bonesetter (die-da), exercise (qigong), and dietary therapy."

Thanks. And, as the name suggests, and as the wiki piece spells out, this does go back to ancient times.

I don't get it. arthwollipot, was your remark, about acupuncture and this traditional Chinese medicine thing, like a joke or something, then?
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Old 11th May 2022, 09:41 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That was Hitler, not Stalin.
I fear that the "Germany would have won in the East Front without Hitler's meddling" is a bit in the pseudohistory side itself. After the war the surviving generals were quite fast to shove all the mistakes made in the war to Hitler's shoulders while during the war quite a few of them agreed with those Hitler's bad decisions.
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Old 11th May 2022, 05:32 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I once believed the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot were legitimate cryptozoological mysteries, later illuminated by scientific investigation, and now only believed by the credulous and the fantasists.

Now I'm pretty sure they were intentional hoaxes from the start.
Me too! But I still wanted a plush Nessie for the longest time.
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Old 11th May 2022, 07:06 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Thanks. And, as the name suggests, and as the wiki piece spells out, this does go back to ancient times.

I don't get it. arthwollipot, was your remark, about acupuncture and this traditional Chinese medicine thing, like a joke or something, then?
No. There are a lot of claims that acupuncture goes back thousands of years, but those claims are based on propaganda, not history. The evidence shows that the "acupuncture" practiced for thousands of years was more akin to bloodletting than to how it is practiced today.

Modern "traditional" Chinese medicine dates back to the 1950s. Mao Zedong realised that he could not afford to put fully-trained doctors in every city and province of China, so instead he provided an army of Barefoot Doctors with extremely minimal medical training and spread them throughout the country as part of the Cultural Revolution. It's these Barefoot Doctors that spread the practice of herbalism, qigong, and dietary therapy based loosely on the source Armitage72 cited. Acupuncture in its modern form came about during this period as well.

Note that while Mao made most of the citizens of China rely on the Barefoot Doctors for their health care, he himself only ever used Western medicine.
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Old 11th May 2022, 08:44 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No. There are a lot of claims that acupuncture goes back thousands of years, but those claims are based on propaganda, not history. The evidence shows that the "acupuncture" practiced for thousands of years was more akin to bloodletting than to how it is practiced today.

Modern "traditional" Chinese medicine dates back to the 1950s. Mao Zedong realised that he could not afford to put fully-trained doctors in every city and province of China, so instead he provided an army of Barefoot Doctors with extremely minimal medical training and spread them throughout the country as part of the Cultural Revolution. It's these Barefoot Doctors that spread the practice of herbalism, qigong, and dietary therapy based loosely on the source Armitage72 cited. Acupuncture in its modern form came about during this period as well.

Note that while Mao made most of the citizens of China rely on the Barefoot Doctors for their health care, he himself only ever used Western medicine.

Wow. Didn't know any of that, prior to reading your posts here.

But a quick cursory look seems to say, overwhelmingly, that they're both ancient. But of course, weird theories are a thing, and China's like Russia, in terms of the propaganda thing, so that might explain it.

No doubt a full-on discussion about this would be out of place here, and would be best carried out in a fresh thread: but still, and without going into details and citations and all, just: Are you quite sure this mass of references that claim they're ancient is what is the disinformation, and not the other way around? (I'll take your word for it if you tell me you've specifically considered this question, about whether your info about these being modern pretenders backed by disinformation might itself be wrong, and found it convincing that it's right ---- right that they're not ancient, I mean.)
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Old 11th May 2022, 08:59 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Wow. Didn't know any of that, prior to reading your posts here.

But a quick cursory look seems to say, overwhelmingly, that they're both ancient. But of course, weird theories are a thing, and China's like Russia, in terms of the propaganda thing, so that might explain it.

No doubt a full-on discussion about this would be out of place here, and would be best carried out in a fresh thread: but still, and without going into details and citations and all, just: Are you quite sure this mass of references that claim they're ancient is what is the disinformation, and not the other way around? (I'll take your word for it if you tell me you've specifically considered this question, about whether your info about these being modern pretenders backed by disinformation might itself be wrong, and found it convincing that it's right ---- right that they're not ancient, I mean.)
Here's one source with references that I was able to find relatively quickly. It deals specifically with acupuncture and doesn't mention the Barefoot Doctors.

Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth

Relevant excerpt:

Quote:
It’s time the acupuncture myth was punctured – preferably with an acupuncture needle. Almost everything you’ve heard about acupuncture is wrong.

To start with, this ancient Chinese treatment is not so ancient and may not even be Chinese! From studying the earliest documents, Chinese scholar Paul Unschuld suspects the idea may have originated with the Greek Hippocrates of Cos and later spread to China. There’s certainly no evidence that it’s 3000 years old. The earliest Chinese medical texts, from the 3rd century BC, don’t mention it. The earliest reference to “needling” is from 90 BC, but it refers to bloodletting and lancing abscesses with large needles or lancets. There is nothing in those documents to suggest anything like today’s acupuncture. We have the archaeological evidence of needles from that era – they are large; the technology for manufacturing thin steel needles appropriate for acupuncture didn’t exist until 400 years ago.
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Old 12th May 2022, 12:43 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Or Ukraine?
Or Romania.
Or the Baltics.

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that theprestige's point is that they also did a lot of the enabling of the creation of the Nazi empire by attacking Poland in the first place
And prior to that, assisting in the re-creation of the German military.
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Old 12th May 2022, 12:46 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've noticed a lot of people seem to go through a sort of...

- Old school traditional religion
- New agey stuff
- Actual skepticism

... character arc (for lack of a better term.)
More people should read Frazer.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 12th May 2022, 12:47 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
And there is solid Egyptian corroboration for the presence of a powerful & threatening group of outsiders in northern Egypt. We even know from the Egyptians that they spoke a Northwest Semitic language (the subfamily that Hebrew is in) and that one of their kings was named Jacob. (Actually Yakovi, but it's really also Yakovi in Hebrew anyway.)
Hyksos as the Israelites has a long history as a belief, Josephus already has it. It is a possible explanation for the belief in Exodus among the later Israelites, but the main problem with it is that there are 400-500 years between the Hyksos rule and the first archeological traces that can be quite confidently assigned to Israelites. And further 300 years from that to the first written versions of the story. That is a long time and there is no demonstrable connection between the two.

What comes to the farao "Jacob", he was not actually "Yakovi". For starters, he is a very obscure figure and it is not certain whether he was one of the Hyksos (15th dynasty) or whether he belonged to the preceding 14th dynasty. The 14th dynasty in its part is very badly named as it isn't a dynasty in the traditional sense, it's just a mishmash of various Egyptian kings who ruled over some parts of the Nile delta during the second intermediate period.

With the old Gardiner translitteration convention the attested Egyptian form of his name is yˁḳphr (many other conventions use 'q' instead of 'ḳ'). As this name is not an obviously native Egyptian name and becuse it looks awfully lot like the two part Semitic name 'Yaqub Har' that means "Har Protects", people tend to assume that he was Semitic, even if the match of the name is not exact. It is close enough to be a reasonable assumption. That "Har" in the name might be Horus but some say it's the name of a mountain god.

In any case Yaqub Har was a minor ruler. There are no surviving inscriptions where he would call himself "King of Upper and Lower Egypt" while such texts are found for later Hyksos pharaohs (even though they didn't really rule over the Upper Egypt). The only signs that he was a king is that his name is written in a cartouche and that he used the title "Son of Re". He might have been a regional king who recognized the authority of a more powerful ruler, but we don't really know.

Given that names based on Yaqub were common in West Semitic areas, it is quite difficult for me to see a clear link between Yacub Har the obscure pharaoh and Jacob the nomadic patriarch whose supposed exploits were written down about 900 years later in time. In particular because names based on Yaqub are attested in cuneiform records as early as the 19th century BC.

Quote:
To me, that makes it look pretty straightforward that the Hyksos refugees or their descendants joined the Hebrews and brought with them the story of what had happened to them in Egypt.
We have so few sources of the end of the Hyksos period that we do not know what really happened. Pretty much only thing we know is that there was a decades long war between the Upper and Lower Egypts where first Kamose conquered large parts of the delta and then Ahmose captured Avaris in the delta and Shahuren that was probably in Southern Palestine. Manetho claims that the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt, but Manetho lived over 1000 years later and is very unreliable.

But basically, the last mentions of the Hyksos are in a town in Southern Palestine and during their rule they seem to have been associated with cities in Northern Levant. To me it is not completely straightforward that their heritage would vanish completely from everywhere else except that it pops up 400-500 years later among remote hill people.

I don't say that the Hyksos connection is impossible, but it is not a clear-cut case.


Quote:
How does the phrase "lost cause" not fit? They did lose, and I don't believe anybody takes seriously the idea that there was ever a realistic way for them to win. "Lost Cause" must have some other meaning stapled onto it in addition to the facts that it was a cause and it was a lost one.
"Lost Cause" is a shorthand for "The Civil War did not have anything to do with slavery, it was about evil and greedy Northeners attacking the upstanding freedom-loving South who just wanted to preserve state's rights over federal tyranny".
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