Texas Gov. Abbott wants to get rid of mandatory public education - Page 4

Darat · 11th May 2022, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Wrong. My parents were not here illegally. My mother was a legal immigrant.

Sorry but it is you that is wrong. Your citizenship is based on where you were born, not on your mother's citizenship.

newyorkguy · 11th May 2022, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

...So, their illegal mother popped a pup on American soil...

Ever think your 'arguments' might be better received if they weren't so crude?

Originally Posted by Darat

Whilst it is a rational reason I do think it is sad how we tend to view children's education.

I had the same reaction. But in fairness to the educator (Ricardo Lopez with Garland ISD says, “It is about workforce development.") I suspect he was trying to appeal to the many Texans who are opposed to education for the kids of undocumented people, basing the appeal on wholly pragmatic grounds.

Warp12 · 11th May 2022, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Sorry but it is you that is wrong. Your citizenship is based on where you were born, not on your mother's citizenship.

Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources.

EaglePuncher · 11th May 2022, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources.

The land belongs to the Native Amercians. Your mother is the descendant of illegal invaders. Your and your mother are not U.S. Americans, rather French,British or Irish.

bruto · 11th May 2022, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Wrong. My parents were not here illegally. My mother was a legal immigrant.

And did someone or some agency check that and qualify you for citizenship accordingly? Is there a notation on your birth certificate that certifies that your parents were both legal? If not, then you were indeed granted the right of citizenship just as all children born in the USA are, by the virtue of being born here. That is true even if there was a difference in your condition, and even if you believe that difference should become law. It was not when you were born, and it is not now. If you want to change that, you need to amend the Constitution, and once again I remind you that even if that occurs, it cannot apply to children already born, because the Constitution expressly forbids ex post facto laws.

tusenfem · 11th May 2022, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

He don't like 'em!

Why is 'STOP' in quotation marks on that woman's shield?

bruto · 11th May 2022, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Why is 'STOP' in quotation marks on that woman's shield?

Bad education?

Or, thinking further about it my guess is that "stop" is a code word for violence.

ponderingturtle · 11th May 2022, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources.

I get it you hate the constitution. Specifically giving citizenship to all the freed slaves after the civil war.

I know you like punishing children for the sins of their parents, that is why you are for reparations to blacks after all.

Dr. Keith · 11th May 2022, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I think I've already made it clear that I don't think that just because they were born here of illegals, that they should be citizens. So, their illegal mother popped a pup on American soil...now we owe them? That is just dumb policy.

They aren't my "fellow" citizens, that's for sure.

You think the Constitution is just “a dumb policy”?

Kind of like democracy is silly?

Dr. Keith · 11th May 2022, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources.

You complain about resources without addressing the positive impact immigrants (legal and illegal) have on our economy. They contribute to all taxes related to education in the state of Texas and in many other states.

You want their labor, you want their taxes, and you want their overall participation in our economy, but you don’t want them to ever be properly compensated for those contributions.

If you really didn’t want them here you could just imprison people who hire them. They wouldn’t come if there weren’t jobs.

The Don · 11th May 2022, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I actually agree that there should be other considerations than just being born on USA soil but that isn't the USA constitutional position and I believe it would require an amendment to the USA constitution to alter it.

That was my understanding too, a change would require an amendment but who knows, maybe it only requires SCOTUS to interpret the existing Constitution and amendments to produce the same result.

Originally Posted by Darat

Warp12 seems to be saying "If the world was different..." but the world isn't different, in every sense someone born on USA soil has the same citizenship as Warp12 for the same legal reasons as Warp12 has USA citizenship.

I don't think Warp12 is saying anything different. All (s)he is saying is if (s)he were making the rules then the children of illegal immigrants* born in the US wouldn't be entitled to US citizenship and no child of illegal immigrants** would be entitled to a state-funded education regardless of where they are born.

* - Warp12 may or may not consider asylum seekers to be illegal
** - not sure what Warp12's position would be if one parent were legal and the other not

Warp12 · 11th May 2022, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

You want their labor, you want their taxes, and you want their overall participation in our economy, but you don’t want them to ever be properly compensated for those contributions.

Wrong. I don't want them or their contributions if they are here illegally.

My compromise is that I do want every person who wants to be a legal US citizen/resident to be able, and in a timely fashion. With safe/proper vetting, of course. The focus should be on immigration reform, not on how many benefits, educational and otherwise, illegals and their offspring are entitled to.

The Great Zaganza · 11th May 2022, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Wrong. I don't want them or their contributions if they are here illegally.

So what penalties do you support for companies and their CEOs for hiring illegals?

Warp12 · 11th May 2022, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

So what penalties do you support for companies and their CEOs for hiring illegals?

I don't know what the current law is on such matters. But I definitely support punishment.

I haven't seen much of this in my personal travels. One guy I worked with turned out to be using the SSN of a relative; when the company (Nissan) found out, they fired him. Probably a topic outside of the scope of this debate, tbh.

The Great Zaganza · 11th May 2022, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't know what the current law is on such matters. But I definitely support punishment.

in short: none.

Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago.

Why don't you try to learn more about this?

ponderingturtle · 11th May 2022, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

in short: none.

Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago.

That's because he is smart like Putin.

Warp12 · 11th May 2022, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

in short: none.

Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago.

Why don't you try to learn more about this?

I don't need to know the specifics of every case in order to have an opinion. I support legal ramifications for those who knowingly employ illegals. Trump included. Pretty simple.

Save that debate for another thread.

Lurch · 11th May 2022, 10:36 AM

What's the REAL reason for the hate-on for children born on US soil to the undocumented? An infant is raw material, and being raised in the US should be something of an equalizer. You have a citizen to mold from the cradle. Whether a child of a legal citizen or not, the same fundamental contributions to the system are made by the family by virtue of residing in the country. The only meaningful difference is the technicality of status.

What's the big distinction between a kid of illegal or legal parents?

And in all of our family trees are the first arrivals that got a foot in the door for their progeny. Many by means not fully legal. Why be so selfish by barring the gate after we have our place secured? It is silly to be so wrapped around the axle over technicalities.

Or is there another factor at work in this emotion-laden uncharitableness? Like, say, melanin content?

The Great Zaganza · 11th May 2022, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't need to know the specifics of every case in order to have an opinion. I support legal ramifications for those who knowingly employ illegals. Trump included. Pretty simple.

Save that debate for another thread.

the fact that you are uneducated about this is very much the subject of this thread: Republicans want to put all the blame on migrants, not on those who create the economic conditions for them wanting to come in the first place.
And you were never told.

Warp12 · 11th May 2022, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

the fact that you are uneducated about this is very much the subject of this thread: Republicans want to put all the blame on migrants, not on those who create the economic conditions for them wanting to come in the first place.
And you were never told.

What does this have to do with my stated opinion that I support punishment for those who knowingly employ illegals? Seems like we would be in agreement on that. This does not absolve illegals from the ramifications of their own actions, however. Different topic, and one that I am done commenting on.

johnny karate · 11th May 2022, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

What does this have to do with my stated opinion that I support punishment for those who knowingly employ illegals? Seems like we would be in agreement on that. This does not absolve illegals from the ramifications of their own actions, however. Different topic, and one that I am done commenting on.

It's disingenuous lip service.

You claim to support criminal penalties for people who hire illegal immigrants, but no one you vote for does and you don't make any attempt to hold them accountable for that because you don't really care.

The only belief on this issue that you express with any degree of enthusiasm is that the most vulnerable people in this scenario should be the ones most severely punished.

As it is with most conservative points of view, the cruelty is the point.

shemp · 11th May 2022, 11:52 AM

Quote:

That's because he is ~~smart~~ a 100% ******* two-faced lying douchebag ******* like Putin.

Fixed that.

Dr. Keith · 11th May 2022, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't know what the current law is on such matters. But I definitely support punishment.

I haven't seen much of this in my personal travels. One guy I worked with turned out to be using the SSN of a relative; when the company (Nissan) found out, they fired him. Probably a topic outside of the scope of this debate, tbh.

Employers have access to the tools necessary to validate and identify the type of SSN fraud you mention prior to hiring. That they fired him is nice, but it was anything other than in the first week, it means they weren’t using freely available tools to validate. They were forced to fire when they found out but happy to plead ignorance so long as he didn’t join the union organizers.

No punishment for Nissan in a case like that means that more people come across the border for those jobs that are willing to wink at a fake ID.

Warp12 · 11th May 2022, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Employers have access to the tools necessary to validate and identify the type of SSN fraud you mention prior to hiring. That they fired him is nice, but it was anything other than in the first week, it means they weren’t using freely available tools to validate. They were forced to fire when they found out but happy to plead ignorance so long as he didn’t join the union organizers.

No punishment for Nissan in a case like that means that more people come across the border for those jobs that are willing to wink at a fake ID.

This was 25 years ago, and he was working for an on-site contractor. When Nissan went to hire him in-house, and the SSN issue was revealed, they terminated him from the site.

Dr. Keith · 11th May 2022, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Warp12

This was 25 years ago, and he was working for an on-site contractor. When Nissan went to hire him in-house, and the SSN issue was revealed, they terminated him from the site.

But the contractor wasn’t punished. So he just goes to work for another contractor and the primary employer can say “gee, we didn’t know.”

newyorkguy · 11th May 2022, 04:25 PM

The real answer to illegal immigration for purposes of employment is cracking down on the employers. But in Texas, as in many states, neither the Democratic Party or the Republican Party has supported that. Below are quotes from a story that appeared in the Texas Tribune in 2016. But it could have been written last week.

Quote:

“We know what an important part immigrant labor plays in Texas, and to suddenly wipe out large sectors ... would have a devastating impact on the Texas economy,” said Bill Hammond, head of the influential Texas Association of Business, the state’s top business advocacy group. “We need immigrant labor to do those tasks where not enough Americans will.” The left-right convergence — bringing businessmen and liberal immigration activists together — has been key in blocking legislation that would make life more difficult for undocumented immigrants in Texas, said Bill Beardall, executive director of the Equal Justice Center, a nonprofit law firm that advocates for immigrants and other low-wage workers in Austin...In the absence of a systematic fix, the high demand for illegal labor makes it virtually impossible to “secure” the southern border, said John Connolly, former executive associate director of Homeland Security Investigations in Washington, D.C. Texas Tribune link

In this article, written back in 2016, Texas Governor Greg Abbott -- the same man worried about how Texas will pay to school illegal kids -- refused to comment. And donald trump has a history of hiring undocumented workers that goes back to the 1980s. A lot of these politicians are crying crocodile tears about "illegals."

I hate to see the people who support this nonsense -- through lack of concern if not outright malevolence -- behave so hypocritically. What's really sad is the people with strong opinions who really have no clue as to what's really going on. They're being played for fools and I hate to see that.

Ladewig · 11th May 2022, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

Bad education?

Or, thinking further about it my guess is that "stop" is a code word for violence.

They have used punctuation for messages before, but given the size, I think it is more a matter of her thinking that quotation marks are the best way to emphasize a word on a protest sign.

Of course, boldface, italics, underlining, changing sizes, changing colors, changing fonts, drop shadows, and highlighting are better ways to emphasize words on signs.

The Great Zaganza · 11th May 2022, 09:33 PM

Republicans, as a principle, will always blame every problem on Evil, all-powerful Elites, AND the smallest, weakest minorities, simultaneously.
That way, their supporters have only one target they can actually hit, but with double the venom and righteousness.

Stacyhs · 12th May 2022, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
in short: none.

Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago.

That's because he is smart like Putin.

Is potato.

arthwollipot · 12th May 2022, 12:56 AM

Is potato.

Darat · 12th May 2022, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources.

I don't get your point. By the same criteria you are an American citizen - which meant you were entitled to be educated as a kid - these kids are entitled to the same.

You may disagree with the law but the law is the law until it is changed.

The Don · 12th May 2022, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I don't get your point. By the same criteria you are an American citizen - which meant you were entitled to be educated as a kid - these kids are entitled to the same.

You may disagree with the law but the law is the law until it is changed.

I don't think Warp12 is disagreeing with you - they think that the law should be changed and if it was in their power to do so, they would.

Darat · 12th May 2022, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Wrong. I don't want them or their contributions if they are here illegally.

My compromise is that I do want every person who wants to be a legal US citizen/resident to be able, and in a timely fashion. With safe/proper vetting, of course. The focus should be on immigration reform, not on how many benefits, educational and otherwise, illegals and their offspring are entitled to.

Why do you think the governor isn't doing that?

Darat · 12th May 2022, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Is potato.

I think you will find that is spelled potatoe!

jimbob · 12th May 2022, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

And did someone or some agency check that and qualify you for citizenship accordingly? Is there a notation on your birth certificate that certifies that your parents were both legal? If not, then you were indeed granted the right of citizenship just as all children born in the USA are, by the virtue of being born here. That is true even if there was a difference in your condition, and even if you believe that difference should become law. It was not when you were born, and it is not now. If you want to change that, you need to amend the Constitution, and once again I remind you that even if that occurs, it cannot apply to children already born, because the Constitution expressly forbids ex post facto laws.

And of course there is a good historic reason for this. Slaves were not citizens even though many were born in the United States.

Worm · 12th May 2022, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't give a rat's ass about the children of illegals.

I just wanted to check that this was what you actually meant to type, because it seems like a rather startling standpoint. But c'est la vie I guess.

My views on public education are not going to please any conservative I guess, as the child of teachers from the public sector, and currently working in the public education sector, I tend to err towards education for all, as much as possible, as good as possible.

bruto · 12th May 2022, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

And of course there is a good historic reason for this. Slaves were not citizens even though many were born in the United States.

I'm quite aware of the historic reason, and no doubt those like Warp12 would point out that the current issue of birthright citizenship goes beyond it, but there it is. It's there until it is not.

Of course if enough people get together they can change the Constitution, and then start deporting the children of illegals or of those suspected of being illegal, and eventually the children of the children of illegals to countries they have never been to, and anybody whose parents' papers weren't in order or whose hospitals didn't fill out the forms right, or whose parents' status was uncertain, or who were adopted but not soon enough, and then they can bitch about the expense and curtailment of freedom that makes every birth more bureaucratic and more expensive and requires a legal and appeal process to work even halfway efficiently. And of course there will be a few mistakes, as there already are in border towns where citizens are deported or threatened with it, but you can't make an omelette etc.

And it will all be worth it in the ongoing struggle to make our country the greatagain banana republic it so longs to be.

dudalb · 12th May 2022, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Worm

I just wanted to check that this was what you actually meant to type, because it seems like a rather startling standpoint. But c'est la vie I guess.

My views on public education are not going to please any conservative I guess, as the child of teachers from the public sector, and currently working in the public education sector, I tend to err towards education for all, as much as possible, as good as possible.

What it translates to is 'I don't give a rat's ass about anybody who is not White".

Warp12 · 12th May 2022, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Worm

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't give a rat's ass about the children of illegals.

I just wanted to check that this was what you actually meant to type, because it seems like a rather startling standpoint. But c'est la vie I guess.

Originally Posted by dudalb

What it translates to is 'I don't give a rat's ass about anybody who is not White".

Bad translation, bud.

Is this an indirect way of calling me a racist?

thaiboxerken · 12th May 2022, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Warp12

Bad translation, bud.

Is this an indirect way of calling me a racist?

There is no need to call you a racist, indirectly or directly.

11th May 2022, 07:54 AM	#121
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,809	Originally Posted by Warp12 Wrong. My parents were not here illegally. My mother was a legal immigrant. Sorry but it is you that is wrong. Your citizenship is based on where you were born, not on your mother's citizenship.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th May 2022, 07:58 AM	#123
Warp12 King of Kings Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 5,041	Originally Posted by Darat Sorry but it is you that is wrong. Your citizenship is based on where you were born, not on your mother's citizenship. Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources.
	__________________ "Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it." - Navin R. Johnson

11th May 2022, 08:06 AM	#124
EaglePuncher Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 483	Originally Posted by Warp12 Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources. The land belongs to the Native Amercians. Your mother is the descendant of illegal invaders. Your and your mother are not U.S. Americans, rather French,British or Irish.
	__________________ You know you found a real "conservative" when they complain about virtue signalling while not realizing that they are virtue signalling. Last edited by EaglePuncher; 11th May 2022 at 08:07 AM.

11th May 2022, 08:26 AM	#125
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,386	Originally Posted by Warp12 Wrong. My parents were not here illegally. My mother was a legal immigrant. And did someone or some agency check that and qualify you for citizenship accordingly? Is there a notation on your birth certificate that certifies that your parents were both legal? If not, then you were indeed granted the right of citizenship just as all children born in the USA are, by the virtue of being born here. That is true even if there was a difference in your condition, and even if you believe that difference should become law. It was not when you were born, and it is not now. If you want to change that, you need to amend the Constitution, and once again I remind you that even if that occurs, it cannot apply to children already born, because the Constitution expressly forbids ex post facto laws.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

11th May 2022, 08:27 AM	#126
tusenfem Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,997	Originally Posted by newyorkguy He don't like 'em! Why is 'STOP' in quotation marks on that woman's shield?
tusenfem Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,997	__________________ Scientific progress goes BOINK -- Calvin & Hobbes twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist

11th May 2022, 07:55 AM	#122
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 12,247	Originally Posted by Warp12 ...So, their illegal mother popped a pup on American soil... Ever think your 'arguments' might be better received if they weren't so crude? Originally Posted by Darat Whilst it is a rational reason I do think it is sad how we tend to view children's education. I had the same reaction. But in fairness to the educator (Ricardo Lopez with Garland ISD says, “It is about workforce development.") I suspect he was trying to appeal to the many Texans who are opposed to education for the kids of undocumented people, basing the appeal on wholly pragmatic grounds.

11th May 2022, 08:29 AM	#127
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,386	Originally Posted by tusenfem Why is 'STOP' in quotation marks on that woman's shield? Bad education? Or, thinking further about it my guess is that "stop" is a code word for violence.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard) Last edited by bruto; 11th May 2022 at 08:32 AM.

11th May 2022, 08:32 AM	#128
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,385	Originally Posted by Warp12 Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources. I get it you hate the constitution. Specifically giving citizenship to all the freed slaves after the civil war. I know you like punishing children for the sins of their parents, that is why you are for reparations to blacks after all.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th May 2022, 08:44 AM	#129
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 24,931	Originally Posted by Warp12 I think I've already made it clear that I don't think that just because they were born here of illegals, that they should be citizens. So, their illegal mother popped a pup on American soil...now we owe them? That is just dumb policy. They aren't my "fellow" citizens, that's for sure. You think the Constitution is just “a dumb policy”? Kind of like democracy is silly?
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

11th May 2022, 08:50 AM	#130
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 24,931	Originally Posted by Warp12 Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources. You complain about resources without addressing the positive impact immigrants (legal and illegal) have on our economy. They contribute to all taxes related to education in the state of Texas and in many other states. You want their labor, you want their taxes, and you want their overall participation in our economy, but you don’t want them to ever be properly compensated for those contributions. If you really didn’t want them here you could just imprison people who hire them. They wouldn’t come if there weren’t jobs.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

11th May 2022, 09:36 AM	#131
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,167	Originally Posted by Darat I actually agree that there should be other considerations than just being born on USA soil but that isn't the USA constitutional position and I believe it would require an amendment to the USA constitution to alter it. That was my understanding too, a change would require an amendment but who knows, maybe it only requires SCOTUS to interpret the existing Constitution and amendments to produce the same result. Originally Posted by Darat Warp12 seems to be saying "If the world was different..." but the world isn't different, in every sense someone born on USA soil has the same citizenship as Warp12 for the same legal reasons as Warp12 has USA citizenship. I don't think Warp12 is saying anything different. All (s)he is saying is if (s)he were making the rules then the children of illegal immigrants* born in the US wouldn't be entitled to US citizenship and no child of illegal immigrants** would be entitled to a state-funded education regardless of where they are born. * - Warp12 may or may not consider asylum seekers to be illegal ** - not sure what Warp12's position would be if one parent were legal and the other not

11th May 2022, 10:09 AM	#132
Warp12 King of Kings Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 5,041	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith You want their labor, you want their taxes, and you want their overall participation in our economy, but you don’t want them to ever be properly compensated for those contributions. Wrong. I don't want them or their contributions if they are here illegally. My compromise is that I do want every person who wants to be a legal US citizen/resident to be able, and in a timely fashion. With safe/proper vetting, of course. The focus should be on immigration reform, not on how many benefits, educational and otherwise, illegals and their offspring are entitled to.
	__________________ "Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it." - Navin R. Johnson

11th May 2022, 10:14 AM	#133
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 17,700	Originally Posted by Warp12 Wrong. I don't want them or their contributions if they are here illegally. So what penalties do you support for companies and their CEOs for hiring illegals?
	__________________ "Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food." - Robert M. Pirsig

11th May 2022, 10:18 AM	#134
Warp12 King of Kings Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 5,041	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza So what penalties do you support for companies and their CEOs for hiring illegals? I don't know what the current law is on such matters. But I definitely support punishment. I haven't seen much of this in my personal travels. One guy I worked with turned out to be using the SSN of a relative; when the company (Nissan) found out, they fired him. Probably a topic outside of the scope of this debate, tbh.
	__________________ "Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it." - Navin R. Johnson

11th May 2022, 10:22 AM	#135
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 17,700	Originally Posted by Warp12 I don't know what the current law is on such matters. But I definitely support punishment. in short: none. Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago. Why don't you try to learn more about this?
	__________________ "Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food." - Robert M. Pirsig

11th May 2022, 10:24 AM	#136
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,385	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza in short: none. Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago. That's because he is smart like Putin.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th May 2022, 10:29 AM	#137
Warp12 King of Kings Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 5,041	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza in short: none. Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago. Why don't you try to learn more about this? I don't need to know the specifics of every case in order to have an opinion. I support legal ramifications for those who knowingly employ illegals. Trump included. Pretty simple. Save that debate for another thread.
	__________________ "Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it." - Navin R. Johnson

11th May 2022, 10:36 AM	#138
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,110	What's the REAL reason for the hate-on for children born on US soil to the undocumented? An infant is raw material, and being raised in the US should be something of an equalizer. You have a citizen to mold from the cradle. Whether a child of a legal citizen or not, the same fundamental contributions to the system are made by the family by virtue of residing in the country. The only meaningful difference is the technicality of status. What's the big distinction between a kid of illegal or legal parents? And in all of our family trees are the first arrivals that got a foot in the door for their progeny. Many by means not fully legal. Why be so selfish by barring the gate after we have our place secured? It is silly to be so wrapped around the axle over technicalities. Or is there another factor at work in this emotion-laden uncharitableness? Like, say, melanin content?

11th May 2022, 10:42 AM	#139
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 17,700	Originally Posted by Warp12 I don't need to know the specifics of every case in order to have an opinion. I support legal ramifications for those who knowingly employ illegals. Trump included. Pretty simple. Save that debate for another thread. the fact that you are uneducated about this is very much the subject of this thread: Republicans want to put all the blame on migrants, not on those who create the economic conditions for them wanting to come in the first place. And you were never told.
	__________________ "Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food." - Robert M. Pirsig

11th May 2022, 10:54 AM	#140
Warp12 King of Kings Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 5,041	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza the fact that you are uneducated about this is very much the subject of this thread: Republicans want to put all the blame on migrants, not on those who create the economic conditions for them wanting to come in the first place. And you were never told. What does this have to do with my stated opinion that I support punishment for those who knowingly employ illegals? Seems like we would be in agreement on that. This does not absolve illegals from the ramifications of their own actions, however. Different topic, and one that I am done commenting on.
	__________________ "Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it." - Navin R. Johnson

11th May 2022, 11:24 AM	#141
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 15,200	Originally Posted by Warp12 What does this have to do with my stated opinion that I support punishment for those who knowingly employ illegals? Seems like we would be in agreement on that. This does not absolve illegals from the ramifications of their own actions, however. Different topic, and one that I am done commenting on. It's disingenuous lip service. You claim to support criminal penalties for people who hire illegal immigrants, but no one you vote for does and you don't make any attempt to hold them accountable for that because you don't really care. The only belief on this issue that you express with any degree of enthusiasm is that the most vulnerable people in this scenario should be the ones most severely punished. As it is with most conservative points of view, the cruelty is the point.

11th May 2022, 11:52 AM	#142
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 47,712	Quote: That's because he is ~~smart~~ a 100% ***** two-faced lying douchebag ***** like Putin. Fixed that.
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11th May 2022, 01:17 PM	#143
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 24,931	Originally Posted by Warp12 I don't know what the current law is on such matters. But I definitely support punishment. I haven't seen much of this in my personal travels. One guy I worked with turned out to be using the SSN of a relative; when the company (Nissan) found out, they fired him. Probably a topic outside of the scope of this debate, tbh. Employers have access to the tools necessary to validate and identify the type of SSN fraud you mention prior to hiring. That they fired him is nice, but it was anything other than in the first week, it means they weren’t using freely available tools to validate. They were forced to fire when they found out but happy to plead ignorance so long as he didn’t join the union organizers. No punishment for Nissan in a case like that means that more people come across the border for those jobs that are willing to wink at a fake ID.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

11th May 2022, 01:45 PM	#144
Warp12 King of Kings Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 5,041	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith Employers have access to the tools necessary to validate and identify the type of SSN fraud you mention prior to hiring. That they fired him is nice, but it was anything other than in the first week, it means they weren’t using freely available tools to validate. They were forced to fire when they found out but happy to plead ignorance so long as he didn’t join the union organizers. No punishment for Nissan in a case like that means that more people come across the border for those jobs that are willing to wink at a fake ID. This was 25 years ago, and he was working for an on-site contractor. When Nissan went to hire him in-house, and the SSN issue was revealed, they terminated him from the site.
	__________________ "Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it." - Navin R. Johnson

11th May 2022, 02:15 PM	#145
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 24,931	Originally Posted by Warp12 This was 25 years ago, and he was working for an on-site contractor. When Nissan went to hire him in-house, and the SSN issue was revealed, they terminated him from the site. But the contractor wasn’t punished. So he just goes to work for another contractor and the primary employer can say “gee, we didn’t know.”
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

11th May 2022, 04:25 PM	#146
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 12,247	The real answer to illegal immigration for purposes of employment is cracking down on the employers. But in Texas, as in many states, neither the Democratic Party or the Republican Party has supported that. Below are quotes from a story that appeared in the Texas Tribune in 2016. But it could have been written last week. Quote: “We know what an important part immigrant labor plays in Texas, and to suddenly wipe out large sectors ... would have a devastating impact on the Texas economy,” said Bill Hammond, head of the influential Texas Association of Business, the state’s top business advocacy group. “We need immigrant labor to do those tasks where not enough Americans will.” The left-right convergence — bringing businessmen and liberal immigration activists together — has been key in blocking legislation that would make life more difficult for undocumented immigrants in Texas, said Bill Beardall, executive director of the Equal Justice Center, a nonprofit law firm that advocates for immigrants and other low-wage workers in Austin...In the absence of a systematic fix, the high demand for illegal labor makes it virtually impossible to “secure” the southern border, said John Connolly, former executive associate director of Homeland Security Investigations in Washington, D.C. Texas Tribune link In this article, written back in 2016, Texas Governor Greg Abbott -- the same man worried about how Texas will pay to school illegal kids -- refused to comment. And donald trump has a history of hiring undocumented workers that goes back to the 1980s. A lot of these politicians are crying crocodile tears about "illegals." I hate to see the people who support this nonsense -- through lack of concern if not outright malevolence -- behave so hypocritically. What's really sad is the people with strong opinions who really have no clue as to what's really going on. They're being played for fools and I hate to see that.

11th May 2022, 09:29 PM	#147
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,435	Originally Posted by bruto Bad education? Or, thinking further about it my guess is that "stop" is a code word for violence. They have used punctuation for messages before, but given the size, I think it is more a matter of her thinking that quotation marks are the best way to emphasize a word on a protest sign. Of course, boldface, italics, underlining, changing sizes, changing colors, changing fonts, drop shadows, and highlighting are better ways to emphasize words on signs.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. Last edited by Ladewig; 11th May 2022 at 09:33 PM.

11th May 2022, 09:33 PM	#148
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 17,700	Republicans, as a principle, will always blame every problem on Evil, all-powerful Elites, AND the smallest, weakest minorities, simultaneously. That way, their supporters have only one target they can actually hit, but with double the venom and righteousness.
	__________________ "Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food." - Robert M. Pirsig

12th May 2022, 12:47 AM	#149
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 24,872	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Quote: Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post in short: none. Trump uses undocumented workers instead of Americans at Mar-a-Lago. That's because he is smart like Putin. Is potato.

12th May 2022, 12:56 AM	#150
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,367	Is potato.
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12th May 2022, 01:13 AM	#151
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,809	Originally Posted by Warp12 Now, come on. You get my point. I wasn't born here of illegals..there is a difference, to me. I understand the law, but I think it is stupid and it should be changed. We shouldn't be giving these children citizenship, and then we can then stop debating who is going to pay for this mess and provide what Democrats apparently believe to be unlimited resources. I don't get your point. By the same criteria you are an American citizen - which meant you were entitled to be educated as a kid - these kids are entitled to the same. You may disagree with the law but the law is the law until it is changed.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

12th May 2022, 02:21 AM	#152
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,167	Originally Posted by Darat I don't get your point. By the same criteria you are an American citizen - which meant you were entitled to be educated as a kid - these kids are entitled to the same. You may disagree with the law but the law is the law until it is changed. I don't think Warp12 is disagreeing with you - they think that the law should be changed and if it was in their power to do so, they would.

12th May 2022, 02:30 AM	#153
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,809	Originally Posted by Warp12 Wrong. I don't want them or their contributions if they are here illegally. My compromise is that I do want every person who wants to be a legal US citizen/resident to be able, and in a timely fashion. With safe/proper vetting, of course. The focus should be on immigration reform, not on how many benefits, educational and otherwise, illegals and their offspring are entitled to. Why do you think the governor isn't doing that?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

12th May 2022, 02:38 AM	#154
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,809	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Is potato. I think you will find that is spelled potatoe!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

12th May 2022, 03:02 AM	#155
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 25,580	Originally Posted by bruto And did someone or some agency check that and qualify you for citizenship accordingly? Is there a notation on your birth certificate that certifies that your parents were both legal? If not, then you were indeed granted the right of citizenship just as all children born in the USA are, by the virtue of being born here. That is true even if there was a difference in your condition, and even if you believe that difference should become law. It was not when you were born, and it is not now. If you want to change that, you need to amend the Constitution, and once again I remind you that even if that occurs, it cannot apply to children already born, because the Constitution expressly forbids ex post facto laws. And of course there is a good historic reason for this. Slaves were not citizens even though many were born in the United States.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK