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Old 9th May 2022, 03:40 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
There's nothing wrong with your logic on this, as far as it goes.
The statement "I feel like X" is untestable and cannot be proven true. But neither can it be proven false. So tthe argument, from either direction is of little worth.

It's a valid point that the fact that sexual attraction can be objectively be determined and trans genderism cannot. However, it does not follow that the fact that it cannot be verified means it is false or can be dismissed.

I'm male..a man. I know how I feel. I don't know how thePrestige feels or if his feeling of being a "man" is the same as mine. Neither do I know how Elliot Pager feels. I can's say she feels the same as I or any other man, but neither can I say she doesn't.
I think there is a difference in the two lines of argumentation though.

Gay is defined in terms of the feeling itself. It's a bit squishy perhaps, but at the end of the day, "Gay" pretty much means feeling sexual arousal toward people of the same sex.

Thus, saying "I feel sexual arousal toward my own sex" is logically equivalent to saying "I am gay".

This doesn't hold true when it comes to gender identity though. Being a "woman" or a "man is not defined by a feeling. One is not a "woman" because one feels affinity with pink things and dollies. So saying "I feel affinity for things that most females seem to feel affinity with" is NOT logically equivalent to saying "I am an adult human female".

In fact, that's a fair bit of the critical argument. Forcibly trying to redefine an entire sex class into a "feeling" is a dirty, underhanded, dehumanizing thing, and it doesn't make the logic any better. All it does is insult adult female humans, and regressively reinforce stereotypes.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:45 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Not at all interesting. Rolfe has been extraordinarily consistent in the usage of "woman = adult female human" and "man = adult human male". Rolfe has been very clear that they do NOT accept those terms as being force-separated as sex versus gender.

Don't call me "they". I can cope with misgendering, but not with misnumerating.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:47 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
In what way is that different to the American right?

Oh good grief, and too late to edit. My brain must be fried.

"The American left will put you in a prison cell w a rapist. The American right will make you have his baby." - to be exact, copypasta.

https://twitter.com/KDansky/status/1523698910061301760

Way to ruin the entire point. But honestly, I have to stop and think which hand is pushing which ideology, to be honest. A plague on both your houses.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:50 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't recall that argument either. I do know that there were some "let's battle this bit first, then address the next step", but I don't recall anyone ever supporting the abolishment of laws against sodomy who did NOT support gay marriage. At the very least, they all wanted federally recognized civil unions with the full complement of rights that exist for married people.

I remember Darat, at the time, getting very cross because "civil partnerships" as introduced in Britain for same-sex couples weren't the same as marriage. He wanted nothing to do with them and to hold out for actual marriage, but felt forced into it because of the need to become the legal next-of-kin to his partner.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:50 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
In what way is that different to the American right?
It was mistyped, nothing more.

"The American left will lock you in a cell with a rapist. The American right will make you have his baby."
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:52 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Don't call me "they". I can cope with misgendering, but not with misnumerating.
Would you prefer "it"? I can accommodate that

Honestly, I will happily adopt any reasonable gender-neutral singular term if anyone can suggest one that will work in usage. Until then, everyone gets misnumbered, including we.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:52 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh good grief, and too late to edit. My brain must be fried.

"The American left will lock you in a cell with a rapist. The American right will make you have his baby."

Way to ruin the entire point. But honestly, I have to stop and thing which hand is pushing which ideology, to be honest. A plague on both your houses.
When Horseshoe Theory Becomes a Complete Circle...
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:55 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I remember Darat, at the time, getting very cross because "civil partnerships" as introduced in Britain for same-sex couples weren't the same as marriage. He wanted nothing to do with them and to hold out for actual marriage, but felt forced into it because of the need to become the legal next-of-kin to his partner.
My objective was full legal rights and privileges for a two-person joined household. I didn't care what it was called, as long as everyone got called the same thing. I'd have been satisfied with everyone having a "civil union" in legal terms, and then if they wanted to have a "marriage" in religious terms, that was on them. It was the shared rights and kinship status that I was after.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:59 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Would you prefer "it"? I can accommodate that

Honestly, I will happily adopt any reasonable gender-neutral singular term if anyone can suggest one that will work in usage. Until then, everyone gets misnumbered, including we.

Well, there isn't a gender-neutral third person singular in English. Get over it. We have masculine, feminine and neuter. I'd rather have "it" than "them", but honestly, I think that's a daft stance.
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Old 9th May 2022, 04:26 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, there isn't a gender-neutral third person singular in English. Get over it. We have masculine, feminine and neuter. I'd rather have "it" than "them", but honestly, I think that's a daft stance.
I also think it's a daft stance, no argument from me. But there are other rules here that I also think are daft... so I'm taking my pick of daftness.

But out of respect, I shall endeavor to always refer to you by name rather than pronoun.
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Old 9th May 2022, 05:03 PM   #251
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It's an interesting thing about the third person singular, linguistically. Apparently the way you learn it in your native language is the most hard-wired thing there is in your language usage. People can be absolutely fluent, completely like natives in their speech and comprehension, but never really "get" the third person singular. I heard about a Finnish woman, lived in England since her early twenties, married to an Englishman, absolutely fluent in English - and can't remember to call her son "he" and her daughter "she" because (unusually) the third person singular is not gendered in Finnish. (I always had trouble calling our cruise ship "she" because the ship's name was Marco Polo!)

I sometimes wonder about languages where all nouns are gendered, and if people keep giving the object the gender they were brought up giving it, rather than the one it has in the language they're learning. One I find slightly mind-boggling is the sun and the moon. In English we tend to think of the sun as masculine and the moon as feminine, even though the nouns aren't strictly gendered. And French agrees - le soleil and la lune. But German does it the other way round, die Sonne and der Mond. And I've heard German poetry address "Frau Sonne". And in Gaelic they're both feminine - a' ghrian and a' ghealach (grian and gealach, but the definite article lenites feminine nouns where possible).

The thing is, this is fundamental to the way we have learned language and the way our brains process language. We can't just decide to do it differently without a lot of cognitive discomfort.
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Old 9th May 2022, 05:20 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
In what way is that different to the American right?
It's very different. The Left won't demand that you carry your rape baby to term.
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Old 9th May 2022, 08:49 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's very different. The Left won't demand that you carry your rape baby to term.
But that's not what the quote said.
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Old 10th May 2022, 12:15 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, there isn't a gender-neutral third person singular in English. Get over it. We have masculine, feminine and neuter. I'd rather have "it" than "them", but honestly, I think that's a daft stance.
It was just bothering me to read an article about an actress the other day, who, to the best of my knowledge never asked to be called any other gender, and was playing a woman role, and it was "they" all the way anyway. Like fuggin' heck, there's no need to go overboard. There's no shame in calling a woman "she". Pretty sure the author can't get cooties over the internet for acknowledging that someone is a woman.
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Old 10th May 2022, 02:40 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If a male is attracted to females, and they are a cross-dresser, they are almost 100% cross-dressing for sexual titillation and pleasure.
I can't speak for others and I haven't made a scientific statistic or anything, but I can assure you that in my case it was more or less just used to "being" a girl or at least functioning in society as one. You know, after that being the modus operandi chosen for me for most of the first 14 years or so of my life. Trust me, I wasn't thinking anything sexual most of the time.

But anyway, that's also one reason why I'm somewhat wary of railroading other kids into it.
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Old 10th May 2022, 02:44 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Mmm... nuance is needed here.

Yes, we have sex-based roles. Almost all mammals do. Although not a hard rule, in general, the degree of sex-differentiation in roles is correlated with the degree of sexual dimorphism in the species. Humans have a LOT of dimorphism.
Err... humans have a lot less dimorphism than a lot of other species. Most notably than the species in our direct ancestry. The evolution towards human has been a case of gradually losing that dimorphism. Mostly by way of losing the male advantages, including stuff like the jaws and teeth that even Chimps still have, or the muscles to actually make them usable as weapons.
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Old 10th May 2022, 03:24 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I can't speak for others and I haven't made a scientific statistic or anything, but I can assure you that in my case it was more or less just used to "being" a girl or at least functioning in society as one. You know, after that being the modus operandi chosen for me for most of the first 14 years or so of my life. Trust me, I wasn't thinking anything sexual most of the time.

But anyway, that's also one reason why I'm somewhat wary of railroading other kids into it.

She did say "almost" 100%. I think you're an unusual case. You were cross-dressing because your grandmother put you in girls' clothes, and of course you got used to it. In general Emily is right, and indeed it's an arguable point that virtually all (note the "virtually") males who cross-dress are doing it with a sexual motive. The AGP cohort get directly turned on by wearing women's clothes, and the HSTS cohort want to appear feminine to attract men who desire feminine-looking male lovers.

I have recently been surprised to hear accounts from AGP men who describe intense AGP feelings when they were small boys, well before puberty, indeed pretty much as long as they could remember. Anne Lawrence and Debbie Hayton. I had thought it was something that didn't come on until puberty and indeed I think that's the usual way of it. But clearly it can be a cause of "transness" in small boys too. Listening to both of them it seems to have been a very distressing experience, but I don't think the answer is to trans every wee boy who wants to wear a princess frock.

I also think that more research is required, but not to determine who is "real" trans (no such thing) and who isn't, and not even to determine who is going to persist with wanting to be the other sex in adulthood. More research is required into identifying the root causes of these distressing feelings and trying to help these boys and men deal with it and live happy lives, hopefully without needing to mutilate their bodies in adulthood and absolutely definitely without preventing puberty and mutilating them as children. (This is exactly the opposite of what Anne Lawrence says, but I think he's flat wrong.)

The problem is that the people heading up the trans movement do not want to admit to the sexual motives behind their desire to "become women". Partly it's natural embarrassment about discussing a fetish and partly it's because in the past psychiatrists tried to weed out AGP men and not allow them to transition, because they did know about the fetishistic desire to invade women's spaces and make women uncomfortable. This was the "gatekeeping" thing. So nobody is allowed to talk about AGP or even HSTS or even admit these conditions exist never mind that they're at the bottom of virtually all male trans identification. How can you help people with a mental illness if you're not allowed to bore down to the underlying cause?

I don't mention girls here because the motive for transition in females does not appear to be sexual in most cases (although there are definitely some). Tomboys who would grow out of it, and young women running away from womanhood as from a house on fire, as Emily said.
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Old 10th May 2022, 06:06 AM   #258
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"Cross Dresser" is, to me anyway, an interesting litmus test as to what people are actually asking for.

I've never hidden nor shied away from the fact that my #1 issue with transgenderism is that the entire concept makes zero sense unless the society puts roles on the genders and I could have sworn we were trying to get rid of as many of those as possible.

You can't have "cross dresser" as a concept unless the society has rules that go "Men wear this, women wear that."

But, back to my core issue, more and more what we seem to being asked to accept is that we have no gender roles, but we are still allowed to subvert them, a concept which makes zero sense to me.
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:26 AM   #259
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Not sure who's asked you to believe that we don't have gender roles. Even the most cursory look into anthropology, or, really, the world around you, would assure you that we do.

What some of us disbelieve is just that such roles are somehow innate or determined by some gender wiring. Especially when a lot of that wouldn't even EXIST during the times when our species (and thus brains) was actually evolving. Or hell, even a lot more recently than that.

Or when other cultures, or even our culture at different time points, had things working very differently.

For example it's hard to believe that somehow liking pink is a girl thing, while liking blue is a boy thing, when that kind of coding is at most 200 years old, and as recently as 80 years ago the polar opposite tradition existed. Or it's hard for me to believe that boys are somehow wired to like toy guns and toy cars, when nothing even vaguely resembling the shape of either existed when we were evolving. I mean, the shape of a revolver didn't even exist before 1836 or so, so exactly what evolution pressure 200,000 years ago would make boys favour that shape?

Basically my objection is that it's evo-psych just without actually calling it that name, and has the same problem as that pseudo-science. It's always the latest fad from specifically MY time and MY corner of the world, that is supposedly how we evolved to be in the first place. Even if it's something as dumb as trying to justify a novel title (no, seriously, much evo-psych drivel has been written on specifically why gentlemen prefer blondes), by projecting it upon a time when evolution happened but the relevant gene didn't even EXIST, so it couldn't actually be an evolutionary pressure.


But TL;DR version: yes, there ARE prescriptive roles, like that a manly man would never choose to be a nurse. It's just a bit hard to see that as innate, seeing as not only there are plenty of exceptions, but there isn't even a historical constant in there. The only constant is that what is supposedly innate female job always was just what most guys didn't want to do at that point in time, mostly because it was boring or low paid or not bringing one enough glory or such.

So yes, you can subvert some prescriptive norm, without needing it to be descriptive. In fact, you can subvert it because it's not descriptive.
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:34 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You were cross-dressing because your grandmother put you in girls' clothes, and of course you got used to it.
Not just the clothes, mind you. I had to say I'm a girl, and play with the girls, and everything. I wasn't just cross-dressed, I was by all accounts trans.
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:36 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not sure who's asked you to believe that we don't have gender roles..
Yeah "Gender roles" was the term that got made up as a way to squeeze something in-between biological sex and socially imposed gender and pretend like there was always a third axis.

Again I just don't want to flippantly make my "keeping trying to find a term that means you have a gender soul" quip again but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck whether or not it "identifies" as a duck matters just so very, very, very little.
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:43 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's... normal feline behavior. A queen in heat will go ass-up and yowly to almost any other critter and some objects while in heat, but gets extremely aggressive toward fertile male cats. Part of that is simply that the posturing and yowling is an expression of discomfort - I have a NEED OMG I NEED SOMETHING I NEED!!!!!. Part of it is also that feline copulation is pretty violent all around. If a tom want's to hit that, he's going to have to bring some game of his own, or she will absolutely beat his tail back to his mommy.
Not to the extent to which this cat was going. We had cats before, since I picked up all kittens I could lay my hands on. This one was anything but normal.

Well, maybe also because it was a very muscular cat. (Long story short, she had only two modes: hyper or sleeping. She'd actually bring you the cat fishing pole and ask to be chased around, kept at it until she was literally out of breath, rested for 10 minutes, then wanted to go at it again. So by the time she went in heat, she looked like Conan The Barbarian with fur.) So I guess that might have made it easier to beat the seven shades of crap out of any tomcat that didn't know when to give up. In fact, she could probably turn one into spare parts, if she wanted.

So I guess I dunno. I'm not even a human psychologist, much less a cat psychologist
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:53 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I have learned a new term for an argument that I have repeatedly seen made, and which has always failed to convince me! "Sophisticated Theology" perfectly captures it!
Well, mostly you have to thank the religious apologists for that name, since that's literally what they propose: that you only think something (e.g., theodicy, young earth creationism, etc) is a problem for their religion because you're unsophisticated and downright ignorant of how reputable theologians solved it long ago. They can't tell actually tell you what that theology says. Nor even who those theologians are, so you can look it up yourself. Just that your problem is just your not knowing it.

So yeah, they're literally postulating the existence a "sophisticated theology". Or at least, more sophisticated than the weak sauce ones that you laypersons have ever seen and are addressing.

Or, as the joke goes, it's so sophisticated that it doesn't even exist
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Old 10th May 2022, 11:09 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I can't speak for others and I haven't made a scientific statistic or anything, but I can assure you that in my case it was more or less just used to "being" a girl or at least functioning in society as one. You know, after that being the modus operandi chosen for me for most of the first 14 years or so of my life. Trust me, I wasn't thinking anything sexual most of the time.

But anyway, that's also one reason why I'm somewhat wary of railroading other kids into it.
I'm not a psychologist or other mental health professional... but I would venture to say that you don't fall into that category at all. From what I can tell, you didn't have any innate urge to cross-dress... you were given clothes and told to wear them regardless. You perhaps didn't object, but it wasn't something you were drawn to psychologically.

I do think there's some fuzziness in the whole thing. A huge number of females "cross dress" in that they wear trousers and t-shirts, or other pretty neutral "not girly" clothing... but it's not some urge to cross dress, it's just comfortable and useful. Similarly, I've known several males who had strong preferences for utility kilts because they were comfortable and useful, but there was no desire to really cross dress. I also dated a male who regularly wore long tie-dye hippie skirts - they were comfortable and they liked them... but they weren't in any way a cross-dresser or trans. They just liked skirts. By a similar token, my spouse paints their fingernails much more often than I do, because it's pretty and sparkly.

There's some gradient between simply having a preference and having an urge or a compulsion. The transsexuals that I was referencing would all have fallen at the compulsion end of things, rather than the preference end.
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Old 10th May 2022, 11:14 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I have recently been surprised to hear accounts from AGP men who describe intense AGP feelings when they were small boys, well before puberty, indeed pretty much as long as they could remember. Anne Lawrence and Debbie Hayton. I had thought it was something that didn't come on until puberty and indeed I think that's the usual way of it. But clearly it can be a cause of "transness" in small boys too. Listening to both of them it seems to have been a very distressing experience, but I don't think the answer is to trans every wee boy who wants to wear a princess frock.
A bit off topic, but I wonder if there's a correlation with childhood sexual abuse. I know that hypersexualization, especially prior to puberty, is a frequent indicator of CSA in young females. I wouldn't be at all surprised to fine a correlation between CSA and early onset AGP in males. There's already a fair bit of research indicating a correlation between CSA and trans identities.
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Old 10th May 2022, 11:15 AM   #266
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Of course, where I live nobody bats an eyelid at a man in a kilt of any description. It's pretty much de rigeur as formal wear.
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Old 10th May 2022, 11:17 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not just the clothes, mind you. I had to say I'm a girl, and play with the girls, and everything. I wasn't just cross-dressed, I was by all accounts trans.
I would say you were "transed" rather than "trans"
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Old 10th May 2022, 11:21 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, mostly you have to thank the religious apologists for that name, since that's literally what they propose: that you only think something (e.g., theodicy, young earth creationism, etc) is a problem for their religion because you're unsophisticated and downright ignorant of how reputable theologians solved it long ago. They can't tell actually tell you what that theology says. Nor even who those theologians are, so you can look it up yourself. Just that your problem is just your not knowing it.

So yeah, they're literally postulating the existence a "sophisticated theology". Or at least, more sophisticated than the weak sauce ones that you laypersons have ever seen and are addressing.

Or, as the joke goes, it's so sophisticated that it doesn't even exist
The version I've seen multiple times has been along the lines of "This got put into policy, and clearly there's consensus agreement among all of the experts and people knowledgeable about this"... but never actually being able to name those experts, provide evidence of consensus, or even acknowledge that politicians aren't anywhere near expert. The argument simply assumes that "obviously" someone, somewhere, somewhen had a really good reason for this so "clearly" it's true.

So... "Sophisticated Ideology"?
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Old 10th May 2022, 11:22 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Of course, where I live nobody bats an eyelid at a man in a kilt of any description. It's pretty much de rigeur as formal wear.
I always thought that kilts were very attractive on males. But then, I also think a nicely cut cassock is sexy too.
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Old 10th May 2022, 11:41 AM   #270
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Oh yes. A well-fitting well-worn kilt is as sexy as hell.
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Old 10th May 2022, 06:00 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The version I've seen multiple times has been along the lines of "This got put into policy, and clearly there's consensus agreement among all of the experts and people knowledgeable about this"... but never actually being able to name those experts, provide evidence of consensus, or even acknowledge that politicians aren't anywhere near expert. The argument simply assumes that "obviously" someone, somewhere, somewhen had a really good reason for this so "clearly" it's true.

So... "Sophisticated Ideology"?
Well, probably "sophisticated argument" would be my choice, as the most generic, since I've seen it occasionally used for more than religion or politics. But yes, it does pop up in politics too, among other things. But I guess it's a bit too late to rename it.
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Old 10th May 2022, 06:07 PM   #272
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Incidentally, another fallacious argument which I've seen crossing over from religion lately is the "faith in faith" argument.
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Old 10th May 2022, 06:17 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I would say you were "transed" rather than "trans"
Well, what I'm saying is that I continued to wish I were a woman, and on-and-off pretend to be one, even after it stopped being mandatory. But basically, yes, that's kinda my point. It's obviously possible to "trans" someone else.

I don't expect that most people had an experience as radical as mine, but I do wonder. Kids ARE able to pick up cues, such as that they get more attention when they do X, or that there's some expectation to choose Y over Z, or such. Enculturation wouldn't even work otherwise, after all.

Or, of course, it's also possible that I was just born with female wiring (whatever that may mean) and grandma just picked on that. Somehow. Before an age where I even knew wth is the difference.

Your guess is as good as mine. Probably better if you're sober
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Old 11th May 2022, 01:00 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, there isn't a gender-neutral third person singular in English. Get over it. We have masculine, feminine and neuter. I'd rather have "it" than "them", but honestly, I think that's a daft stance.
Really because everyone uses singular they.

Just think of statements about an individual but not a specific individual. Seeing medical information calling patients it instead of they would be weird.

"A patient comes in and it reports being hit by a bus" that really flows better in english to you(of course singular you instead of thee is also just a debasement of the language)?
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Old 11th May 2022, 03:38 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I disagree. For some people, they are exclusive to "gender", although those same people can never explain what "gender" is in the first place without resorting to negative and regressive stereotypes, or a tautology.

For a great many people, however, those terms do NOT refer to "gender", but refer to maturity, sex, and species. In exactly the same way that "mare" refers to a sexually mature female horse, and "filly" refers to a sexually immature female horse, and "colt" refers to a sexually immature male horse, and "stallion" refers to a sexually mature male horse. And for those who want to go all the way down the rabbit hole, yes - "gelding" refers to a physically mature male horse that has been castrated to prevent fertility.
You disagree that man/woman are labels for gender in modern day society.

I didn't say exclusively.
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Old 11th May 2022, 03:43 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Incidentally, another fallacious argument which I've seen crossing over from religion lately is the "faith in faith" argument.
I'm not familiar with that one.
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Old 11th May 2022, 06:19 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not familiar with that one.
Basically "faith in faith" is when someone doesn't actually ask you to believe that Xianity is true -- in fact, often they'll say they're atheists themselves -- but you should let, or even encourage people to believe in it, because just believing is beneficial in some way. Like, it makes people more moral, or happier, or more confident, or really whatever.

But usually it's the "more moral" argument. Even on JREF (back when it was called that) someone was proposing that religion keeps people from raping babies. That was the actual over-the-top emotional argument used.

Basically it's kind of like appeal to consequences, but actually with a major difference. Appeal to consequences asks you to believe X is actually true, because X=>Y and surely you'd like Y. Faith in faith doesn't need X to be true, and Y isn't directly a consequence of X, but if people believe X to be true, then Y.

Of course, it has to be unsupported that belief in X actually has that effect, or it's not a fallacy in the first place. Basically they can't even support that faith in X actually causes Y. (E.g., that religious people actually are more moral.) You have to have faith that faith does that.

Hence, "faith in faith". They're literally asking you to have faith in faith.
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Old 11th May 2022, 06:42 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
You disagree that man/woman are labels for gender in modern day society.
I think what she meant was the notion of "gender" being different from "sex". And she's largely right, far as I can tell.

For most people it never caught on as anything else than a synonym for sex. In fact, until fairly recently it didn't even mean anything for actual humans, it was a word for the 'genders', i.e., "categories" of words. And it's a distinction that most languages other than English never had anyway.

And by recent I mean as recent as the mid to late 1950's it just flat out wasn't even used for humans. And even then what was introduced wasn't much of a notion of gender per se being different from sex. The difference was between "sex" and "gender role." Basically all that was introduced was more the idea of a socially assigned role, rather than actually going down the rabbithole of identity.

Actually starting to use "gender" instead of "sex" only started as late as the '90s, far as I can tell. And even then basically it was just used as a synonym for "sex", when not also paired with the word "role". E.g. between 1993 and 2011, the FDA used "gender" to mean basically biological male vs biological female, when it came to prescribed drugs.

So yes, technically you could say that "man" and "woman" were labels for "gender", but only in the way that you could substitute "sex" there and get the same meaning.

Anything else is much more recent and never really caught on, except for a subset of the keyboard warrior crowd. Definitely not to the extent one could say that society uses it that way.
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Old 12th May 2022, 03:26 AM   #279
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Exactly. Polka mistakes the forced/coerced usage of language that he encounters in his keyboard warrior pals for normal societal usage. It ain't so. Transwomen are not wome. Transmen are not men. They can call themselves by the trans- words if they want, but as for the rest, you might as well claim seahorses are horses.
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Old 12th May 2022, 03:35 AM   #280
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Well, more like this time I'm only saying it's not as standard a use as some people seem to assume. Some people seem to think that whatever jargon they use, is what everyone means by those words, or at least clearly understands it as such. Which might not be the case. They might succeed in making it so in the future, but at the moment it isn't the case.
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