[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? Turning it up to 11 - Page 10

Darat · 7th February 2021, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

What you really mean is that I'm not a fantasist Europhile who thinks everything is wonderful whilst all around me everythings going up in flames.

As I don't share your delusion, you would be puzzled.
But you are deluded.

And meanwhile, there's been Black Wednesday, the Greek sovereign debt crisis, the Italian crisis, the Piigs crisis, imposed marketisations and I simply do not agree with the policies of the Commission.

Do I like the Tories and the way they have handled this ? NO.

But what was the alternative ?
Remaining part of an authoritarian corporatist clique that is deeply flawed unreformable and just does not work.

Open your eyes man.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Paxman in Brussels, a BBC documentary.

You don’t seem to be aware but we left the EU over a year ago.

erwinl · 7th February 2021, 11:38 PM

The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU'

, aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly.

Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'.

Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all.

Wudang · 8th February 2021, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

What I am doing is making a point to another poster who moronically accused me of xenophobia.

There are arguments for independence that are not all anti foreigner.

Yes, insults don't help. I frequently quote the LeaveHQ webpage as it helpfully does things like explain the problem with the WTO option etc. The author is quite well informed on trade etc and explains it clearly. He is also to mind hopelessly optimistic about good sense prevailing and people actually caring about facts over headlines.

Wudang · 8th February 2021, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it.

No, it's a standard playbook used before. Starve X of funds so it can't perform. Use X's inability to perform as a justification for outsourcing and refuse more funds until X performs better . Let X wither on the vine. Creeping_normality^WP

The Don · 8th February 2021, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

No, it's a standard playbook used before. Starve X of funds so it can't perform. Use X's inability to perform as a justification for outsourcing and refuse more funds until X performs better . Let X wither on the vine. Creeping_normality^WP

IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts.

It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house.

Wudang · 8th February 2021, 02:58 AM

And also how the money flowing to the oursourcing companies is "commercially sensitive". David Allen Green on why all public contracts should be public domain linky

Airfix · 8th February 2021, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

You don’t seem to be aware but we left the EU over a year ago.

I'm well aware of that.

We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it.

As a result it enabled Boris to be the man to "get Brexit done" and he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants.

Captain_Swoop · 8th February 2021, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts.

It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house.

Because those taking the contracts are only in it to milk as much money for their shareholders as possible.

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Both. The island as a whole seems set for years of mistrust, and that can't end well.

Indeed. The sheer incompetence of the NI "government" doesn't help. Personally I preferred sealing the border last year, many of the Covid cases were the result of cross-border passage, and then keeping it sealed.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

B
I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work.

In much the same way as they make the confederation work; trust, give-and-take, common sense and mutual respect between the cantons (and demi-cantons). It's something they're very good at (I lived there for a couple of years, fascinating place politically).

However the Swiss-EU relationship has evolved over decades and lacked the intrusive sense of British exceptionalism that created Brexit and the subsequent stupidities. The Swiss right-wing nationalism is far less influential on federal level policy and lacks the sheep like popular support that exists in the UK, as the referenda demonstrate.

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

The Irish are livid with the EU over the vaccine fiasco in which Ursula von der Leyen was willing to impose a hard border on vaccines, even Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the IRA were scathing in their criticism of the EU.

Right now, all we have to do is be fair and let the EU keep shooting itself in the foot and Ireland will turn on the EU.

One of the big problems with the EU is it's penchant for authoritarianism.

Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit".
Cop on.

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by erwinl

The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU'

, aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly.

Yeah, a common refrain from the "I'm not a racist but" crowd.

Originally Posted by erwinl

Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'.

Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all.

Well the Turks got it worse, the sheer bigotry that was on display was disgusting.

SezMe · 8th February 2021, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

See here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...-reunification

Interesting data in that link. What does "devolved government" mean?

SezMe · 8th February 2021, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...."

That's a really cheap shot. You ought to apologize.

Wudang · 8th February 2021, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Interesting data in that link. What does "devolved government" mean?

Certain powers and responsibilities are transferred from central government to the local government, in this case the Northern Ireland Assembly. Northern_Ireland_Assembly^WP. Scotland and Wales also have devolved assemblies.

SezMe · 8th February 2021, 05:29 AM

Wudang, that link is broken...at least for me in the colonies.

Wudang · 8th February 2021, 05:49 AM

Aaagh! I was going to do a wiki link but used url tags instead. Fixed now
eta: It wasn't. Case sensitive. 3rd time lucky.

Airfix · 8th February 2021, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit".
Cop on.

I didn't say Irexit, did I ?
You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial.

I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ?

malbui · 8th February 2021, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work.

Originally Posted by catsmate

<snip>

In much the same way as they make the confederation work; trust, give-and-take, common sense and mutual respect between the cantons (and demi-cantons). It's something they're very good at (I lived there for a couple of years, fascinating place politically).

However the Swiss-EU relationship has evolved over decades and lacked the intrusive sense of British exceptionalism that created Brexit and the subsequent stupidities. The Swiss right-wing nationalism is far less influential on federal level policy and lacks the sheep like popular support that exists in the UK, as the referenda demonstrate.

* Declaration of interest: I work for the federal civil service.

The Swiss-EU relationship is complex and deeply unsatisfactory on many levels but it works because of Realpolitik and general commitment on both sides to make things work.

Switzerland needs very close ties with the EU because it is completely surrounded by EU member states and a very great proportion of its trade (especially stuff like milk) goes just over the border. The current structures aren't great (free movement of peoples but outside the Customs Union, for example, which gave Brexiters huge opportunities to lie through their teeth for several years about the realities of doing business with the country) but it's hard to see how there could be significant change unless it was at either extreme. The national referendum in February 2014 on immigration gave a wafer-thin victory to the anti-immigrationists, which caused utter panic in central government because of the guillotine clauses that meant that if CH unilaterally broke the free movement agreement, then all single market agreements would fall. It took a lot of politicking and tweaking to avoid that catastrophe.

At the other extreme there is the persistent question of actually joining the EU. This has always been rejected in the past but the subject shows ever starker divisions between the language communities: as a crude generalisation, the further you get from the south-western corner of the country, the less enthusiasm there is for membership. The cities, which are cosmopolitan and not exactly far from borders (Geneva stretches to the French border, from Basle you can walk into France and Germany) are generally in favour of ever closer links with the EU, while in Heidiland they look at you funny if your family hasn't lived there since the Rütlischwur in 1291.

TL/DR: it's complicated but we make it work because it has to work. Pragmatism and cold hard cash count for a lot around here.

Darat · 8th February 2021, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts.

It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house.

If a private company claims it can offer the same service for a lot less the first question should always be “how”, unless they have some revolutionary and new service/process then they can’t*. Which is why we see time and time again these companies reneging on their contracts, coming back for more money or simply dropping the keys on the desk of the ministry and saying “we’re out of here”.

*At the absolute best all they will have done is found some way to externalise or rather shove some of their expenses onto the public purse that we all end up having to pick up anyway, usually at a much higher cost.

Wudang · 8th February 2021, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I didn't say Irexit, did I ?
You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial.

I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ?

I don't know what you're readiing but even the Express is covering Martin asking the UK to calm down and "dial down the tone".

Darat · 8th February 2021, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I'm well aware of that.

We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it.

As a result it enabled Boris to be the man to "get Brexit done" and he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants.

Nope - May had a parliamentary majority - only the Tories could have prevented us leaving.

Lukraak_Sisser · 8th February 2021, 07:36 AM

A clear journalistic explanation about brexit:

Why we had to back Brexit: a Leave voter remembers the nightmare dystopia of 2016

FOOD shortages, a 68 per cent fall in exports, and the collapse of businesses across Britain. But however bad Brexit may seem, the alternative was worse. Roy Hobbs explains:

“People are quick to forget what it was like back then, in 2016. Migration was out of control. For every Brit working, there were four foreign criminals getting free NHS operations to laugh at us.

“Every day the Express would tell us how our taxes were being funnelled to so-called ‘deprived areas’ in Bulgaria and South Wales for infrastructure to improve people’s lives. Disgusting.

“You couldn’t ignore it. You only had to flick on the telly and Nigel Farage would be on Question Time explaining that the entire population of Turkey was on the march and would reach us any day. Then everyone in the audience would clap, proving it was true. Some nights I’d cry myself to sleep.

“And he still wasn’t prime minister, unfathomably. Instead we had an Eton-educated toff who didn’t understand the first thing about the lives of ordinary people. Can you see now why we had no choice?

What made me realise that we’d reached rock bottom was when I had my hip replacement and all the doctors were foreign, apart from approximately half of them. I knew there and then we had to get our independence back.

“So the next time someone moans that they’ve lost their job, can’t run their business, or can’t get life-saving surgery because the NHS is understaffed, just remind them that they should be thanking us.”

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...20210208205105

Captain_Swoop · 8th February 2021, 07:52 AM

To put the much heralded Albanian trade deal in to perspective.
Albania's population is about the same as Manchester's. It's entire GDP is roughly around 28% of Manchester's.

abaddon · 8th February 2021, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit".
Cop on.

Odd. Why would anyone look at the Brexit fiasco and somehow think it a good option?

They have toasted the fishermen, kicked services to touch, and are now dependant on imigration of brown people to prop up the NHS which they are about to sell off.

Third world England.

At least Scotland and Wales have some chance of getting out from the sinking ship. Norn Iron is already under the bus.

Well done Brexiteers, somehow.

Vixen · 8th February 2021, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The volume of exports going through British ports to the EU fell by a staggering 68% last month compared with January last year, mostly as a result of problems caused by Brexit, the Observer can reveal.

The dramatic drop in the volume of traffic carried on ferries and through the Channel tunnel has been reported to Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove by the Road Haulage Association after a survey of its international members. In a letter to Gove dated 1 February, the RHA’s chief executive, Richard Burnett, also told the minister he and his officials had repeatedly warned over several months of problems and called for measures to lessen difficulties – but had been largely ignored.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...8-since-brexit

Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid.

Vixen · 8th February 2021, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...."

Logical fallacy of the sweeping generalisation. Plenty of left-wing Labour voters - including Corbyn (married to a Spaniard) and Kate Hoy - were pro-Leave, for different reasons.

Francesca R · 8th February 2021, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it.

Starmer, and all of the Labour MPs (except five), and all the SNP, Libdem, Green MPs, and all the Democratic Unionists, and thirty four Tories inc Cash, Baker et al.

Strange recollection you have there.

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

I didn't say Irexit, did I ?
You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial.

Rght......

Originally Posted by Airfix

I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ?

Bollocks. Unlike you I comprehend Irish politics, I know most of the players and I understand the relationship with the EU. There is no "anger which could bring down the Commission", you are utterly delusional. Support for the EU is still ~90%; there's more support for London leaving the UK than Ireland leaving the EU.....

And it's "Sinn Féin" and "Micheál Martin" do try and get it right.

Vixen · 8th February 2021, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

What we need is to subjugate a third of the planet and force them to buy our shoddy stuff.
Then we can claim it's the best in the world because a third of the world buys it while those that have any money buy their cars from Germany, watches from Switzerland and suits from Italy.

What is the UK good at? Rock music, folk music, any music, we could...oh wait...musicians now have to buy visas to tour and pay tax on their instruments on returning. back to the drawing board.

Textiles and the rag trade? Oh wait...that went to China decades ago...

Coal? What's that you say? Thatcher closed down all the mines? Dash...

Financial Services? Ah gotcha! City of London central finance hub of the world. What? They're all deserting for France?

Cadbury's/Bourneville? The Poles are sending this back to the UK? Nobody wants UK chocolate when they can get Belgian or Swiss...? Still, there is Cadbury's World where you can learn it was set up as part of a temperance movement to get people off the booze and drink cocoa instead. Gonna need that, Buddy, gonna need that!!!

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

I don't know what you're readiing but even the Express is covering Martin asking the UK to calm down and "dial down the tone".

I assume, from his past pronouncements, it's the Fail or similar nationalist rags. Certainly nothing realistic.

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Odd. Why would anyone look at the Brexit fiasco and somehow think it a good option?

Self-delusion? Racism? Abject stupidity? Nationalism?

Originally Posted by abaddon

They have toasted the fishermen, kicked services to touch, and are now dependant on imigration of brown people to prop up the NHS which they are about to sell off.

Third world England.

At least Scotland and Wales have some chance of getting out from the sinking ship. Norn Iron is already under the bus.

Well done Brexiteers, somehow.

Indeed.

The Don · 8th February 2021, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid.

It's not because of Thing A that I ******-up, it's because of Thing B I completely *********-up

Vixen · 8th February 2021, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Was he a leading light or remotely leading voice of the campaign ? NO
This is David Owen, remainer in the 1970's and 80's who quit Labour because it's manifesto commitment to leave the EEC, and co founded the SDP with Roy Jenkins.

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I AGREE

Listen to him and consider what he has to say.

Voices like his influenced me.

I started paying attention to politics around the time PMQs were first broadcast on TV. I've paid attention ever since.

Back in 1990, when he was still an MP, he was a good orator.
I watched the Maastricht debates, and I watched as John Major forced it upon us without it being in the manifesto and without a referendum.

I watched as Tony Blair forced the Amsterdam and Nice treaties through, without manifesto commitments and without referendums.

I watched as James Goldsmith's referendum party and Alan Sked's UK Independence Party appeared.
I watched when Alan Sked quit after falling out with Nigel (Farage).

I watched as Tony Blair proposed a European Union rapid reaction force, what the hell does a trading bloc need soldiers for ?

Sorry if this upsets anyone, BUT:

It is not racist to not want to be part of an empire.

Nobody wanted to join the European Union originally but now the UK has been in it for 47 years it is a retrograde step to try it wind the clock back to 1976. Economics evolves all the time. Time to wave goodbye to the past.

Vixen · 8th February 2021, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by erwinl

The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU'

, aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly.

Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'.

Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all.

What a bunch of ingrates, after we gave them a wonderful Christmas...

...at our new gleaming brand spanking new lorry park in Kent. (OK, so they had to pay, but it's the thought that counts.)

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid.

Right......

I suppose anyone who bought the Brexit lie might fall for BoJo's latest lie too.
However the UK's RHA and BPA disagree.

Vixen · 8th February 2021, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

To put the much heralded Albanian trade deal in to perspective.
Albania's population is about the same as Manchester's. It's entire GDP is roughly around 28% of Manchester's.

To put Elizabeth Truss' '64 new trade deals' into perspective, there used to be 114 IIRC.

Hlafordlaes · 8th February 2021, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

... I watched as Tony Blair proposed a European Union rapid reaction force, what the hell does a trading bloc need soldiers for ?

The initial raison d'etre of the precursor to the EU and the EEC, the ECSC^WP, was to

Quote:

"make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible", which was to be achieved by regional integration, of which the ECSC was the first step

Laudable, and given the security provided by NATO (and the fact that the UK and France are nuclear powers), there does seem to be no logic to an independent force. However, alliances can change, the balance of power shift. Arguably, increasing US boldness following the collapse of the USSR has led to actions bordering on the reckless, even criminal. Peace in Western Europe, now including much of the East as well, increasingly may depend on Europeans alone. (2016 update: DJ Trump). The EU, representing 27 member states all located in Europe, may fairly consider itself a vehicle for creating a European force.

The problem is the big Bear to the East, which, given its 22 million dead in WWII, could hardly accept a Germany that is fully involved in building weapons. However, the smart money is on grooming future Russian leaders, such that there may be rapprochement, then perhaps even close cooperation in security matters, and more open trade ties. That is something few east of the Urals or west of Ireland wish to see, but it may be the solution to Europe's current weakness and Russia's chronic underdevelopment.

For some. Food for thought.

Quote:

Sorry if this upsets anyone, BUT: It is not racist to not want to be part of an empire.

Apparently we share neither dictionary nor encyclopedia.

Darat · 8th February 2021, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

It's not because of Thing A that I ******-up, it's because of Thing B I completely *********-up AS WELL

FTFY!

RolandRat · 8th February 2021, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants.

Garbage. The majority of people voted for parties that at least supported a second referendum.

Originally Posted by SezMe

That's a really cheap shot. You ought to apologize.

No.

catsmate · 8th February 2021, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Garbage. The majority of people voted for parties that at least supported a second referendum.

Some sort of democracy....
Perhaps the UK should utilise a more equitable form of voting?

7th February 2021, 11:38 PM	#362
erwinl Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,244	The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU' , aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly. Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'. Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all.
erwinl Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,244	__________________ Bow before your king Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"

8th February 2021, 02:35 AM	#363
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by Airfix What I am doing is making a point to another poster who moronically accused me of xenophobia. There are arguments for independence that are not all anti foreigner. Yes, insults don't help. I frequently quote the LeaveHQ webpage as it helpfully does things like explain the problem with the WTO option etc. The author is quite well informed on trade etc and explains it clearly. He is also to mind hopelessly optimistic about good sense prevailing and people actually caring about facts over headlines.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

8th February 2021, 02:45 AM	#364
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by Airfix The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it. No, it's a standard playbook used before. Starve X of funds so it can't perform. Use X's inability to perform as a justification for outsourcing and refuse more funds until X performs better . Let X wither on the vine. Creeping_normality^WP
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

8th February 2021, 02:58 AM	#366
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	And also how the money flowing to the oursourcing companies is "commercially sensitive". David Allen Green on why all public contracts should be public domain linky
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

8th February 2021, 04:22 AM	#367
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,047	Originally Posted by Darat You don’t seem to be aware but we left the EU over a year ago. I'm well aware of that. We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it. As a result it enabled Boris to be the man to "get Brexit done" and he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,047

8th February 2021, 02:51 AM	#365
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,167	Originally Posted by Wudang No, it's a standard playbook used before. Starve X of funds so it can't perform. Use X's inability to perform as a justification for outsourcing and refuse more funds until X performs better . Let X wither on the vine. Creeping_normality^WP IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts. It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house.

8th February 2021, 04:29 AM	#368
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,147	Originally Posted by The Don IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts. It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house. Because those taking the contracts are only in it to milk as much money for their shareholders as possible.

8th February 2021, 04:51 AM	#369
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,912	Originally Posted by Sherkeu Both. The island as a whole seems set for years of mistrust, and that can't end well. Indeed. The sheer incompetence of the NI "government" doesn't help. Personally I preferred sealing the border last year, many of the Covid cases were the result of cross-border passage, and then keeping it sealed. Originally Posted by Sherkeu B I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work. In much the same way as they make the confederation work; trust, give-and-take, common sense and mutual respect between the cantons (and demi-cantons). It's something they're very good at (I lived there for a couple of years, fascinating place politically). However the Swiss-EU relationship has evolved over decades and lacked the intrusive sense of British exceptionalism that created Brexit and the subsequent stupidities. The Swiss right-wing nationalism is far less influential on federal level policy and lacks the sheep like popular support that exists in the UK, as the referenda demonstrate.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th February 2021, 04:53 AM	#370
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,912	Originally Posted by Airfix The Irish are livid with the EU over the vaccine fiasco in which Ursula von der Leyen was willing to impose a hard border on vaccines, even Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the IRA were scathing in their criticism of the EU. Right now, all we have to do is be fair and let the EU keep shooting itself in the foot and Ireland will turn on the EU. One of the big problems with the EU is it's penchant for authoritarianism. Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit". Cop on.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th February 2021, 04:56 AM	#371
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,912	Originally Posted by erwinl The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU' , aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly. Yeah, a common refrain from the "I'm not a racist but" crowd. Originally Posted by erwinl Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'. Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all. Well the Turks got it worse, the sheer bigotry that was on display was disgusting.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th February 2021, 05:00 AM	#372
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,183	Originally Posted by Darat See here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...-reunification Interesting data in that link. What does "devolved government" mean?

8th February 2021, 05:10 AM	#373
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,183	Originally Posted by RolandRat You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...." That's a really cheap shot. You ought to apologize.

8th February 2021, 05:15 AM	#374
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by SezMe Interesting data in that link. What does "devolved government" mean? Certain powers and responsibilities are transferred from central government to the local government, in this case the Northern Ireland Assembly. Northern_Ireland_Assembly^WP. Scotland and Wales also have devolved assemblies.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. Last edited by Wudang; 8th February 2021 at 05:51 AM.

8th February 2021, 05:29 AM	#375
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,183	Wudang, that link is broken...at least for me in the colonies.

8th February 2021, 05:49 AM	#376
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Aaagh! I was going to do a wiki link but used url tags instead. Fixed now eta: It wasn't. Case sensitive. 3rd time lucky.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. Last edited by Wudang; 8th February 2021 at 05:51 AM.

8th February 2021, 06:03 AM	#377
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,047	Originally Posted by catsmate Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit". Cop on. I didn't say Irexit, did I ? You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial. I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ?
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,047

8th February 2021, 06:53 AM	#378
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,263	Originally Posted by Sherkeu I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work. Originally Posted by catsmate <snip> In much the same way as they make the confederation work; trust, give-and-take, common sense and mutual respect between the cantons (and demi-cantons). It's something they're very good at (I lived there for a couple of years, fascinating place politically). However the Swiss-EU relationship has evolved over decades and lacked the intrusive sense of British exceptionalism that created Brexit and the subsequent stupidities. The Swiss right-wing nationalism is far less influential on federal level policy and lacks the sheep like popular support that exists in the UK, as the referenda demonstrate. * Declaration of interest: I work for the federal civil service. The Swiss-EU relationship is complex and deeply unsatisfactory on many levels but it works because of Realpolitik and general commitment on both sides to make things work. Switzerland needs very close ties with the EU because it is completely surrounded by EU member states and a very great proportion of its trade (especially stuff like milk) goes just over the border. The current structures aren't great (free movement of peoples but outside the Customs Union, for example, which gave Brexiters huge opportunities to lie through their teeth for several years about the realities of doing business with the country) but it's hard to see how there could be significant change unless it was at either extreme. The national referendum in February 2014 on immigration gave a wafer-thin victory to the anti-immigrationists, which caused utter panic in central government because of the guillotine clauses that meant that if CH unilaterally broke the free movement agreement, then all single market agreements would fall. It took a lot of politicking and tweaking to avoid that catastrophe. At the other extreme there is the persistent question of actually joining the EU. This has always been rejected in the past but the subject shows ever starker divisions between the language communities: as a crude generalisation, the further you get from the south-western corner of the country, the less enthusiasm there is for membership. The cities, which are cosmopolitan and not exactly far from borders (Geneva stretches to the French border, from Basle you can walk into France and Germany) are generally in favour of ever closer links with the EU, while in Heidiland they look at you funny if your family hasn't lived there since the Rütlischwur in 1291. TL/DR: it's complicated but we make it work because it has to work. Pragmatism and cold hard cash count for a lot around here.
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,263	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

8th February 2021, 06:58 AM	#379
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,809	Originally Posted by The Don IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts. It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house. If a private company claims it can offer the same service for a lot less the first question should always be “how”, unless they have some revolutionary and new service/process then they can’t. Which is why we see time and time again these companies reneging on their contracts, coming back for more money or simply dropping the keys on the desk of the ministry and saying “we’re out of here”. At the absolute best all they will have done is found some way to externalise or rather shove some of their expenses onto the public purse that we all end up having to pick up anyway, usually at a much higher cost.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

8th February 2021, 06:59 AM	#380
Wudang BOFH Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 14,470	Originally Posted by Airfix I didn't say Irexit, did I ? You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial. I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ? I don't know what you're readiing but even the Express is covering Martin asking the UK to calm down and "dial down the tone".
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

8th February 2021, 06:59 AM	#381
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,809	Originally Posted by Airfix I'm well aware of that. We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it. As a result it enabled Boris to be the man to "get Brexit done" and he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants. Nope - May had a parliamentary majority - only the Tories could have prevented us leaving.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

8th February 2021, 07:36 AM	#382
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,485	A clear journalistic explanation about brexit: Why we had to back Brexit: a Leave voter remembers the nightmare dystopia of 2016 FOOD shortages, a 68 per cent fall in exports, and the collapse of businesses across Britain. But however bad Brexit may seem, the alternative was worse. Roy Hobbs explains: “People are quick to forget what it was like back then, in 2016. Migration was out of control. For every Brit working, there were four foreign criminals getting free NHS operations to laugh at us. “Every day the Express would tell us how our taxes were being funnelled to so-called ‘deprived areas’ in Bulgaria and South Wales for infrastructure to improve people’s lives. Disgusting. “You couldn’t ignore it. You only had to flick on the telly and Nigel Farage would be on Question Time explaining that the entire population of Turkey was on the march and would reach us any day. Then everyone in the audience would clap, proving it was true. Some nights I’d cry myself to sleep. “And he still wasn’t prime minister, unfathomably. Instead we had an Eton-educated toff who didn’t understand the first thing about the lives of ordinary people. Can you see now why we had no choice? What made me realise that we’d reached rock bottom was when I had my hip replacement and all the doctors were foreign, apart from approximately half of them. I knew there and then we had to get our independence back. “So the next time someone moans that they’ve lost their job, can’t run their business, or can’t get life-saving surgery because the NHS is understaffed, just remind them that they should be thanking us.” https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...20210208205105

8th February 2021, 07:52 AM	#383
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,147	To put the much heralded Albanian trade deal in to perspective. Albania's population is about the same as Manchester's. It's entire GDP is roughly around 28% of Manchester's.

8th February 2021, 08:40 AM	#384
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,499	Originally Posted by catsmate Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit". Cop on. Odd. Why would anyone look at the Brexit fiasco and somehow think it a good option? They have toasted the fishermen, kicked services to touch, and are now dependant on imigration of brown people to prop up the NHS which they are about to sell off. Third world England. At least Scotland and Wales have some chance of getting out from the sinking ship. Norn Iron is already under the bus. Well done Brexiteers, somehow.
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

8th February 2021, 08:48 AM	#385
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,937	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop The volume of exports going through British ports to the EU fell by a staggering 68% last month compared with January last year, mostly as a result of problems caused by Brexit, the Observer can reveal. The dramatic drop in the volume of traffic carried on ferries and through the Channel tunnel has been reported to Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove by the Road Haulage Association after a survey of its international members. In a letter to Gove dated 1 February, the RHA’s chief executive, Richard Burnett, also told the minister he and his officials had repeatedly warned over several months of problems and called for measures to lessen difficulties – but had been largely ignored. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...8-since-brexit Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

8th February 2021, 08:52 AM	#386
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,937	Originally Posted by RolandRat You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...." Logical fallacy of the sweeping generalisation. Plenty of left-wing Labour voters - including Corbyn (married to a Spaniard) and Kate Hoy - were pro-Leave, for different reasons.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

8th February 2021, 08:59 AM	#387
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 18,774	Originally Posted by Airfix We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it. Starmer, and all of the Labour MPs (except five), and all the SNP, Libdem, Green MPs, and all the Democratic Unionists, and thirty four Tories inc Cash, Baker et al. Strange recollection you have there.

8th February 2021, 09:03 AM	#388
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,912	Originally Posted by Airfix I didn't say Irexit, did I ? You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial. Rght...... Originally Posted by Airfix I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ? Bollocks. Unlike you I comprehend Irish politics, I know most of the players and I understand the relationship with the EU. There is no "anger which could bring down the Commission", you are utterly delusional. Support for the EU is still ~90%; there's more support for London leaving the UK than Ireland leaving the EU..... And it's "Sinn Féin" and "Micheál Martin" do try and get it right.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th February 2021, 09:03 AM	#389
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,937	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop What we need is to subjugate a third of the planet and force them to buy our shoddy stuff. Then we can claim it's the best in the world because a third of the world buys it while those that have any money buy their cars from Germany, watches from Switzerland and suits from Italy. What is the UK good at? Rock music, folk music, any music, we could...oh wait...musicians now have to buy visas to tour and pay tax on their instruments on returning. back to the drawing board. Textiles and the rag trade? Oh wait...that went to China decades ago... Coal? What's that you say? Thatcher closed down all the mines? Dash... Financial Services? Ah gotcha! City of London central finance hub of the world. What? They're all deserting for France? Cadbury's/Bourneville? The Poles are sending this back to the UK? Nobody wants UK chocolate when they can get Belgian or Swiss...? Still, there is Cadbury's World where you can learn it was set up as part of a temperance movement to get people off the booze and drink cocoa instead. Gonna need that, Buddy, gonna need that!!!
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

8th February 2021, 09:04 AM	#390
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,912	Originally Posted by Wudang I don't know what you're readiing but even the Express is covering Martin asking the UK to calm down and "dial down the tone". I assume, from his past pronouncements, it's the Fail or similar nationalist rags. Certainly nothing realistic.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th February 2021, 09:08 AM	#391
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,912	Originally Posted by abaddon Odd. Why would anyone look at the Brexit fiasco and somehow think it a good option? Self-delusion? Racism? Abject stupidity? Nationalism? Originally Posted by abaddon They have toasted the fishermen, kicked services to touch, and are now dependant on imigration of brown people to prop up the NHS which they are about to sell off. Third world England. At least Scotland and Wales have some chance of getting out from the sinking ship. Norn Iron is already under the bus. Well done Brexiteers, somehow. Indeed.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. Last edited by catsmate; 8th February 2021 at 09:10 AM.

8th February 2021, 09:08 AM	#392
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,167	Originally Posted by Vixen Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid. It's not because of Thing A that I ****-up, it's because of Thing B I completely *******-up

8th February 2021, 09:11 AM	#394
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,937	Originally Posted by erwinl The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU' , aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly. Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'. Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all. What a bunch of ingrates, after we gave them a wonderful Christmas... ...at our new gleaming brand spanking new lorry park in Kent. (OK, so they had to pay, but it's the thought that counts.)
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

8th February 2021, 09:13 AM	#395
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,912	Originally Posted by Vixen Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid. Right...... I suppose anyone who bought the Brexit lie might fall for BoJo's latest lie too. However the UK's RHA and BPA disagree.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

8th February 2021, 09:16 AM	#396
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,937	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop To put the much heralded Albanian trade deal in to perspective. Albania's population is about the same as Manchester's. It's entire GDP is roughly around 28% of Manchester's. To put Elizabeth Truss' '64 new trade deals' into perspective, there used to be 114 IIRC.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

8th February 2021, 09:43 AM	#397
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,692	Originally Posted by Airfix ... I watched as Tony Blair proposed a European Union rapid reaction force, what the hell does a trading bloc need soldiers for ? The initial raison d'etre of the precursor to the EU and the EEC, the ECSC^WP, was to Quote: "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible", which was to be achieved by regional integration, of which the ECSC was the first step Laudable, and given the security provided by NATO (and the fact that the UK and France are nuclear powers), there does seem to be no logic to an independent force. However, alliances can change, the balance of power shift. Arguably, increasing US boldness following the collapse of the USSR has led to actions bordering on the reckless, even criminal. Peace in Western Europe, now including much of the East as well, increasingly may depend on Europeans alone. (2016 update: DJ Trump). The EU, representing 27 member states all located in Europe, may fairly consider itself a vehicle for creating a European force. The problem is the big Bear to the East, which, given its 22 million dead in WWII, could hardly accept a Germany that is fully involved in building weapons. However, the smart money is on grooming future Russian leaders, such that there may be rapprochement, then perhaps even close cooperation in security matters, and more open trade ties. That is something few east of the Urals or west of Ireland wish to see, but it may be the solution to Europe's current weakness and Russia's chronic underdevelopment. For some. Food for thought. Quote: Sorry if this upsets anyone, BUT: It is not racist to not want to be part of an empire. Apparently we share neither dictionary nor encyclopedia.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp