Continuation Brexit: Now What? Turning it up to 11

[Airfix]

The Oxford Vaccine is being sold at cost, AstraZeneca aren't making a profit on it.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Vixen

AIUI The EU invested €336million in AstraZeneca, including in the UK, to the extent of €28m specifically to expand the production lines.

I will treat your claim that the UK 100% paid for development of the vaccine with Oxford and that the EU investment did not include the UK production lines as your opinion rather than fact. This is because you have presented your case as the EU trying to cheat the UK out of its vaccinations.

So I take it that you can find no evidence to support your assertion.

Try reading this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54303061
or this
https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/A...nation-targets
or this
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/ip_20_1438
or this
https://www.ft.com/content/8b48a853-...4-17026fa15472

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Vixen

AIUI The EU invested €336million in AstraZeneca, including in the UK, to the extent of €28m specifically to expand the production lines.

I will treat your claim that the UK 100% paid for development of the vaccine with Oxford and that the EU investment did not include the UK production lines as your opinion rather than fact. This is because you have presented your case as the EU trying to cheat the UK out of its vaccinations.

I think from the EU sources that the EU invested only by loans from the EIB in manufacturing, otherwise they only advance ordered allowing AZ to spend that money on manufacturing capacity for those orders.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Planigale

So I take it that you can find no evidence to support your assertion.

Try reading this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54303061
or this
https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/A...nation-targets
or this
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/ip_20_1438
or this
https://www.ft.com/content/8b48a853-...4-17026fa15472

AFAICS these are just press releases (BBC, FT) as put out by the government spelling out how much the UK are investing.

Do you have anything that isn't a Boris Johnson puff piece?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Planigale

I think from the EU sources that the EU invested only by loans from the EIB in manufacturing, otherwise they only advance ordered allowing AZ to spend that money on manufacturing capacity for those orders.

No, we are not talking about paying for advance orders. I was referring to EU investment into (a) developing the AstraZeneca vaccine and (b) additional investment into the UK factory in Wrexham to expand production. IOW the EU seems pretty certain it had an interest in procuring that vaccine.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Planigale

Yes, this is self interest. What they are saying is that they will not impose trade barriers / tariffs on UK produced vaccine but regard it as if it had been produced in the EU. Entirely reasonable in the circumstances.

What is not reasonable to say is that the output of vaccine produced in the EU should be prioritised for EU use and exports out of the EU will be restricted to select third countries (excluding the UK) and for the purposes of this case the UK factory is defined as being within the EU therefore AZ have to prioritise output of the UK factory for EU use.

That's not what the contract said at all though. The contract said 'if you want to send us vaccines make sure it was made in the EU unless we give you permission otherwise, oh and to avoid hassle we will consider the UK plants to be EU plants'

It had nothing to do with trade barriers or tariffs.

The 'export ban' had nothing to do with this clause either it was because there was suspicion that AZ were exporting vaccine to countries paying more for it while being unable to meet EU demand (whether this was happening or not I have no idea)

The claim on the UK factory was that AZ had made a contract with the EU to deliver X vials of vaccine and that the contract could be potentially fulfilled by using UK supply as well as EU supply. Of course AZ had other contractual commitments for which that supply was earmarked.

And then all of this gets conflated into THE EU ARE TRYING TO STEAL OUR VACCINE!

[Airfix]

The EU Commission admitted being in the wrong, why are you still defending something they themselves won't?

[Klimax]

Originally Posted by Airfix

The EU Commission admitted being in the wrong, why are you still defending something they themselves won't?

About what and evidence for it.

[Captain_Swoop]

Will we get a referendum on joining the trans-Pacific trading bloc and become subject to their rules, regulations and tribunal?

[angrysoba]

ETA: Wrong thread.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Airfix

The EU Commission admitted being in the wrong, why are you still defending something they themselves won't?

Admitted being wrong about what? Their interpretation of the contract?

I'm merely pointing out what my view of the facts of the case are. And it's certainly not 'the EU tried to steal our vaccine!'

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Will we get a referendum on joining the trans-Pacific trading bloc and become subject to their rules, regulations and tribunal?

Once they find out there are 'Muslim countries' in it they will probably change their mind about wanting to join. Raab is still struggling... he can find the Pacific on his map but no sign of the Trans.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Once they find out there are 'Muslim countries' in it they will probably change their mind about wanting to join. Raab is still struggling... he can find the Pacific on his map but no sign of the Trans.

I thought that the Conservatives were generally anti non-cisgender people

[Captain_Swoop]

The EU has condemned "threats" against staff making Brexit-related checks at Northern Ireland's ports, and told EU officials working in Northern Ireland not to attend their duties.

On Monday, Mid and East Antrim Council withdrew staff from Brexit inspection duties over security fears.

After the local authority decided to withdraw its staff, Stormont announced it was suspending physical inspections of food consignments - particularly meat, fish and dairy products - at Larne and Belfast.

A number of lorries have been redirected away from a border control post near Belfast's Docks, says BBC News NI's Michael Fitzpatrick at the scene.

The vehicles were stopped on the main road outside the Daera site on Duncrue Street by Border Force officers on Tuesday morning and redirected elsewhere.

There is no activity taking place within the facility and the main gate into the site remains closed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55901429

[Airfix]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Will we get a referendum on joining the trans-Pacific trading bloc and become subject to their rules, regulations and tribunal?

There's always a cost to such things and taxpayers money is involved.
So there is a case for a referendum.

But it isn't a political union, is it ?
It has no analogue of the EU commission or parliament, it isn't a customs union with a common external tariff and it does not interfere with the internal affairs of it's members.

[Airfix]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Once they find out there are 'Muslim countries' in it they will probably change their mind about wanting to join.

Some of my friends are Muslims.
Why would I have a problem trading with Muslim countries ?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Airfix

There's always a cost to such things and taxpayers money is involved.
So there is a case for a referendum.

But it isn't a political union, is it ?
It has no analogue of the EU commission or parliament, it isn't a customs union with a common external tariff and it does not interfere with the internal affairs of it's members.

Do you think the Brexiteers will be happy when our trade is regulated by Vietnam and Malaysia?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

What a surprise that a Brexiteer sees things as the EU robbing the UK.

How long before the Daily Mail blames Muslims and the Brexiteers swallow that too?

Hardly surprising, the Brexiteers desperately need to distract attention from the abject failure that is Brexit.

[The Don]

More evidence that the geniuses in Westminster didn't read and/or understand the Brexit deal. The UK can no longer export live shellfish to the EU.

Quote:

The EU has told British fishermen they are indefinitely banned from selling live mussels, oysters, clams, cockles and scallops to its member states.

As the UK is now a separate country, it is not allowed to transport the animals to the EU unless they have already been treated in purification plants.

But the industry says it does not have enough tanks ready and the process can slow exports, making them less viable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55903599

This is the bit where it's clear that Boris Johnson and his numpty friends didn't understand (or maybe didn't care) what they had signed us up for:

Quote:

The UK government previously said it thought the restrictions on exports of bivalve molluscs - such as mussels, clams, cockles, scallops and oysters - would end on 21 April.

This was because Brussels was "expected" to change its rules on that date to allow unpurified shellfish in from non-member states.

But it has emerged - as first reported by Politics Home - that the European Commission wrote to leading UK companies on 13 and 19 January to tell them the current arrangement was in fact permanent.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by The Don

More evidence that the geniuses in Westminster didn't read and/or understand the Brexit deal. The UK can no longer export live shellfish to the EU.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55903599

This is the bit where it's clear that Boris Johnson and his numpty friends didn't understand (or maybe didn't care) what they had signed us up for:

Technically of course its still possible, you just need to be fishing in waters rated A+ for cleanliness, which of course few British waters are. It really does come across as a case of Boris and co. hearing what they wanted to hear, the equivalent of Trump's 'a lot of people are saying'.

[Vixen]

Don't forget the bees. A bee exporter has been told that 15m bees he planned to export face being destroyed for the same reason as the cockles and mussels (see above):

Quote:

A beekeeper trying to bring 15 million bees into the UK says he has been told they may be seized and burned because of post-Brexit laws.

Patrick Murfet wants to import the baby Italian bees for his Kent business and to help farmers pollinate valuable crops. But new laws that came into effect after the UK left the single market mean bringing bees into the country is banned.

Since the end of the transition period, only queen bees can be imported into Great Britain, rather than colonies and packages of bees. However, confusion over whether bees can be brought in via Northern Ireland has caused a legal headache.

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) said it was aware of the issue and is working with the devolved administrations to find a solution.

“I am a passionate beekeeper, I’ve been doing it for nearly 20 years,” Murfet said.

Businessman, Murfet planned to get around this by going via Northern Ireland:

Quote:

In an effort to avoid the import ban and abide by the new laws, Murfet arranged for his usual importation of 15 million bees to arrive via Northern Ireland in April, but said he had been told they may be destroyed if he tries.

“I don’t care what they think it should say. At present the rules are clear that bees from Northern Ireland can enter the UK legally. If the law intended something else, they have not written it into legislation,” Murfet said.

He says his inquiries into the reasoning behind the ban have been met with a wall of silence, except an email reading: “Illegal imports will be sent back or destroyed, and enforcement action (criminal charges) will be brought against the importer.”

GUARDIAN

He's paid £20K so far deposit and looks to lose £100K.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by The Don

More evidence that the geniuses in Westminster didn't read and/or understand the Brexit deal. The UK can no longer export live shellfish to the EU.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55903599

This is the bit where it's clear that Boris Johnson and his numpty friends didn't understand (or maybe didn't care) what they had signed us up for:

Whitby lobsters and langoustine should be ok then, they are held in cleaning tanks in a special cleaning facility on the quayside before they are shipped in specialised 'wet' road trailers,

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Whitby lobsters and langoustine should be ok then, they are held in cleaning tanks in a special cleaning facility on the quayside before they are shipped in specialised 'wet' road trailers,

They aren't molluscs either.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Whitby lobsters and langoustine should be ok then, they are held in cleaning tanks in a special cleaning facility on the quayside before they are shipped in specialised 'wet' road trailers,

I thought those ended up rotting because of delays in transport? Or were you being ironic?

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Vixen

AFAICS these are just press releases (BBC, FT) as put out by the government spelling out how much the UK are investing.

Do you have anything that isn't a Boris Johnson puff piece?

if you bothered to read the policy statement from the EU commission, hardly a mouth piece for Boris Johnson.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No, we are not talking about paying for advance orders. I was referring to EU investment into (a) developing the AstraZeneca vaccine and (b) additional investment into the UK factory in Wrexham to expand production. IOW the EU seems pretty certain it had an interest in procuring that vaccine.

If you read the commission document, the EU policy was to provide loans from EIB to develop vaccine capacity within the EU. EIB cannot provide loans to a third country (as the UK is).

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Planigale

If you read the commission document, the EU policy was to provide loans from EIB to develop vaccine capacity within the EU. EIB cannot provide loans to a third country (as the UK is).

It may have come via the European Investment Bank but it was a grant (=which is not a loan; a loan means you have to pay the sum back with interest over a set period of time). The EU insofar as the AstraZeneca vaccine contract goes was to regard the UK factory bases as EU ones (and the contract was drawn up during the transition period so quite legally sound).

Quote:

At the beginning of May, the European Commission (EC) had already announced funding of €4bn for COVID-19 vaccine research, €2bn for the development of therapeutics and €1.5bn for diagnostic test kits within the Coronavirus Global Response Framework. The initiative proposed by the G20, which aims to build sufficient capacity as quickly as possible to provide everyone with COVID-19 vaccines at affordable prices, treatments and testing, now has mobilised another €6.15bn ithrough the ‘Global Goal: Unite for our Future’ pledging summit.

While the European Investment Bank (EIB) and EC provided €4.9bn, EU member states committed €485m to ensure equitable access to coronavirus vaccines, tests and treatments. This brings total pledges under the EU initiative to €15.9bn, €11.9bn thereof given by the Member States, the EC and the EIB, the rest committed by other governments, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness (CEPI), the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation (GAVI) and the World Bank.

The joint initiative is aimed to avoid national or fragmented efforts that could pose a risk for the most vulnerable economies across the world. The summit also resulted in commitments for the production capacity of over 250 million vaccine doses for middle and lower income countries. Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy, however, had already previously secured 300 million vaccine doses at a price of €750m from AstraZeneca's adenoviral vector vaccine AZ1222, and the USA had even secured 1 billion vaccine doses through BARDA funding. The vaccine was licensed from the University of Oxford.

https://european-biotechnology.com/u...medicines.html


Your claim that the AstraZeneca vaccine is 100% a British project is erroneous, misconceived and wrong, leading to your elementary logical fallacy (= the false premise). Thus, your claims and conclusion are hopelessly flawed and seem based on jingoism and flag-waving, rather than in the business real world.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by GlennB

I thought those ended up rotting because of delays in transport? Or were you being ironic?

Separate issue.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Vixen

It may have come via the European Investment Bank but it was a grant (=which is not a loan; a loan means you have to pay the sum back with interest over a set period of time). The EU insofar as the AstraZeneca vaccine contract goes was to regard the UK factory bases as EU ones (and the contract was drawn up during the transition period so quite legally sound).

https://european-biotechnology.com/u...medicines.html


Your claim that the AstraZeneca vaccine is 100% a British project is erroneous, misconceived and wrong, leading to your elementary logical fallacy (= the false premise). Thus, your claims and conclusion are hopelessly flawed and seem based on jingoism and flag-waving, rather than in the business real world.

I have never claimed that the Oxford / AZ vaccine is 100% British (whatever that means). AZ is a multinational Anglo-Swedish pharmaceutical company. You are creating a straw dog. You claimed the EU had funded the vaccine manufacturing capability in the UK. I asked you for evidence for this claim. You claim it, you should provide evidence to back your claim.

I provided EU documents saying that the EU supported vaccine manufacturing by 1) pre paying for vaccine and 2) providing loans (the EU term) from the EIB. Banks do not give grants.* I provided references to the fact that the UK government funded the UK manufacturing capability. Notably your highlighted section above does NOT refer to vaccine manufacturing.

The reason the EU wanted the UK factory regarded as EU was otherwise its product would be a biological product from a third country and would need to go through all the paperwork and customs restrictions we hear about blocking the travel of molluscs and bees. One would not want millions of vaccine doses going to waste because the customs paperwork was wrong or the factory had not been inspected by the EU pharma authorities etc. As a GMO the vaccine is particularly restricted.

* i would be very anxious if an insolvency practitioner thought banks gave out money as grants; a little hint, banks always want their money back - with interest.

[Airfix]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Do you think the Brexiteers will be happy when our trade is regulated by Vietnam and Malaysia?

And what makes you think that way?
Does it occur to you that the TPP treaty only applies to trade with TPP countries ? It doesn't stop FTAs with other countries or blocs.

This isn't a deep and far reaching political union which affects internal affairs.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Vixen

...snip...

Your claim that the AstraZeneca vaccine is 100% a British project is erroneous, misconceived and wrong, leading to your elementary logical fallacy (= the false premise). Thus, your claims and conclusion are hopelessly flawed and seem based on jingoism and flag-waving, rather than in the business real world.

And since they never made that claim will you apologise?

[Darat]

And in the “who could have known...” file - sorry volume 129...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55913907

Quote:

...snip...

UK and EU leaders are to hold talks to try to resolve the trade issues between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


...snip....

But there is no border between NI and the rest of the UK, we got control back of our borders! Well apart from borders within our country...

Quote:

...snip...

The UK government wrote to the European Commission overnight, calling for temporary lighter enforcement of the rules to be extended until early 2023.

...snip...

But there is no way we could possible agree to an extension to the transition agreement - it has to end December 31st!

Quote:

...snip...

Mr Gove has also asked the EU to examine its decision to ban the import into Northern Ireland of some items

...snip...

Yep we’ve got control of our borders back - apart from the EU decides if we can move goods around inside our own country.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Airfix

And what makes you think that way?
Does it occur to you that the TPP treaty only applies to trade with TPP countries ? It doesn't stop FTAs with other countries or blocs.

This isn't a deep and far reaching political union which affects internal affairs.

They aren't going to let us join anyway.

But, we are talking about people that are obsessed with 'sovereignty' Some of them even object to the WTO because we would have to follow someone else's rules.

How do you think the rabid Brexiters would react if we joined and found ourselves subject to arbitration that went against us? Because with the attitude of the current Govt we are bound to end up breaking the rules we sign up to.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Darat

And since they never made that claim will you apologise?

Certainly not. The claim that the 'UK is a third country and therefore owns the vaccine output' is complete and utter nonsense.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Certainly not. The claim that the 'UK is a third country and therefore owns the vaccine output' is complete and utter nonsense.

I knew you wouldn’t.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Planigale

I have never claimed that the Oxford / AZ vaccine is 100% British (whatever that means). AZ is a multinational Anglo-Swedish pharmaceutical company. You are creating a straw dog. You claimed the EU had funded the vaccine manufacturing capability in the UK. I asked you for evidence for this claim. You claim it, you should provide evidence to back your claim.

I provided EU documents saying that the EU supported vaccine manufacturing by 1) pre paying for vaccine and 2) providing loans (the EU term) from the EIB. Banks do not give grants.* I provided references to the fact that the UK government funded the UK manufacturing capability. Notably your highlighted section above does NOT refer to vaccine manufacturing.

The reason the EU wanted the UK factory regarded as EU was otherwise its product would be a biological product from a third country and would need to go through all the paperwork and customs restrictions we hear about blocking the travel of molluscs and bees. One would not want millions of vaccine doses going to waste because the customs paperwork was wrong or the factory had not been inspected by the EU pharma authorities etc. As a GMO the vaccine is particularly restricted.

* i would be very anxious if an insolvency practitioner thought banks gave out money as grants; a little hint, banks always want their money back - with interest.

Look, I have worked for a charity and part of our mission was to seek grants wherever we could find them. The fact is, whilst Oxford University owns the patent for the particular vaccine AstraZeneca produces, it is in actual fact only the lead university out of others it collaborated with in the EU. AIUI one of the lead scientists is French. Just as the UK took out supplies of the vaccine from the plant in Belgium or the Netherlands, likewise, the EU was entitled to access to that produced in the UK.

BTW whilst it is indeed commendable that the vaccine was developed so rapidly, the true pioneers and credit for this type of vaccine goes to Salk and Sabin who made the prototype - cultivating the virus and inactivating via the livers of the African Green Monkey - and thereby making approval by the regulators so much more speedier than an unknown process.

Salk and Sabin were American so stop waving the flag.

[Airfix]

Maybe not calling Brexiteers "rabid" would be a start.
Pre-judging people is never a good thing.

Let me explain my view of sovereignty.
Sovereignty is power, that power belongs to those who live here.
Including immigrants.

It is the power to democratically decide how we are governed.
It is something that needs working on.
We are not democratic enough.

I lost the vote in 2011 to replace First Past the Post with AV.

For me, the next challenge to make this country more democratic requires a vote on European style Proportional Representation, not whingey sulks about not being in the EU anymore.

That's what I want to campaign for.

Whatever concerns you may have about Brexiteers and the TPP, this Brexiteer is cool about the TPP, I don't have any hatred of foreigners.

All my adult life I have been motivated by trying to make politics more locally connected and democratic.

The greater the gap the more abstracted the political process and the more alienated the voter becomes.

That's my personal feeling on the matter.
That's why sovereignty is important to me.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Darat

I knew you wouldn’t.

IMV the EU and Ursula von der Leyen (together with Stella Kryiandios [_sp?]) have the moral high ground, albeit their implementing Article 16 was not very diplomatic given the threat to the GFA.

Planigale's claim that UK have 'third country' sole rights to the AstraZeneca production in Wrexham is pure opinion with no connection to the reality of the business world. It seems wholly derived from ridiculous jingoistic logic.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Don't forget the bees. A bee exporter has been told that 15m bees he planned to export face being destroyed for the same reason as the cockles and mussels (see above):

Businessman, Murfet planned to get around this by going via Northern Ireland:

GUARDIAN

He's paid £20K so far deposit and looks to lose £100K.

Had sympathy for him until the tried to smuggle them in via Northern Ireland part. He's not someone caught out by the rules, he's actively trying to circumvent them.

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Originally Posted by Planigale

If you read the commission document, the EU policy was to provide loans from EIB to develop vaccine capacity within the EU. EIB cannot provide loans to a third country (as the UK is).

The EIB certainly appears to be able to finance projects outside the EU. I would have been surprised if it hadn't.

https://www.eib.org/attachments/coun...rt_2017_en.pdf