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Old 14th November 2021, 06:12 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
But do they taste better than a McRib?
They'd almost have to.

Meanwhile, Mattel is now selling Hot Wheels NTFs. Imagine that, a toy car you can't hold or play with. But wait, they have it set up where random purchases with get you not just your NTF, but you might just get a premium version you can hold and play with, or sell for an insane profit.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:38 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
It's a psychological trick creating fake value. Some things that do that are considered a scam.
A psychological trick? Things are as valuable as the market makes them.

When I buy a Zed Horse NFT, I immediately race that NFT in a game. I pay an entrance fee to join the race, if I place in the top 3 I get part of the prize pool.

It's literally horse racing. Just like with horse racing my horses value is good or bad depending on how she does.

If you don't understand NFT's then that's totally fine, but I deposited the $4,000USD that I made into my bank account. I then spent that on computer parts, and other fun ****. There's no fake value. Different things hold value to different people. Digital artists are just as talented, and impressive as any real-world artistry. Implying any different is just snobbery.
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Old 16th November 2021, 01:02 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
A psychological trick? Things are as valuable as the market makes them.
The same can be said about pyramid and ponzi schemes. The first step is always tricking people into believing that something has value. Some people make money and some poor suckers are eventually left with a room full of Beanie babies.

Usually, I wouldn't care all that much personally, but the environmental cost of this nonsense upsets me.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
When I buy a Zed Horse NFT, I immediately race that NFT in a game. I pay an entrance fee to join the race, if I place in the top 3 I get part of the prize pool.

It's literally horse racing. Just like with horse racing my horses value is good or bad depending on how she does.

If you don't understand NFT's then that's totally fine, but I deposited the $4,000USD that I made into my bank account. I then spent that on computer parts, and other fun ****.
How exactly is that different from regular gambling, i.e. how did the NFTs contribute to the above? I'm genuinely curious.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There's no fake value. Different things hold value to different people. Digital artists are just as talented, and impressive as any real-world artistry. Implying any different is just snobbery.
I agree that digital artists are just as talented, I never claimed otherwise. I disagree that NFTs are the way to go. NFTs do nothing to stop the original artwork from being copied, and the original artwork is where the actual value lies. The only reason NFTs have value is because people have been convinced that they have value, and that only works as long as enough people keep believing it.

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Old 16th November 2021, 02:31 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The same can be said about pyramid and ponzi schemes. The first step is always tricking people into believing that something has value. Some people make money and some poor suckers are eventually left with a room full of Beanie babies.
You're getting something in return. When you buy an NFT you are receiving something. Whether it's worth the amount you paid for it to people other than you, I have no idea. Just like baseball cards. If I pay $100 for a baseball card that's worth exactly **** all to someone else, I haven't been involved in a Ponzi scheme. I bought something that has value to me, and don't even get me started about how much money fell out of the baseball and sport card market in the 90s.

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Usually, I wouldn't care all that much personally, but the environmental cost of this nonsense upsets me.
No idea what environmental cost you're referring to, but you don't have to explain it to me. I don't really care.

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
How exactly is that different from regular gambling, i.e. how did the NFTs contribute to the above? I'm genuinely curious.
It's not different than gambling, it's literally horse races, but in digital form. The NFT's contribute in that most people can't afford to own a legitimate racehorse. They're rather expensive from what I understand. It's just like every other game that exists on the planet. You pay to participate. It's like a character in an MMORPG. You can play it, then when you're done with it you can sell it, then someone else can buy it, play it, rinse and repeat. Standard stuff.

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I agree that digital artists are just as talented, I never claimed otherwise. I disagree that NFTs are the way to go. NFTs do nothing to stop the original artwork from being copied, and the original artwork is where the actual value lies.
Every time an NFT is sold on sites like OpenSea the creator gets a percentage. There's a "creator royalty" that the person who creates it can set when they add it to the market and they receive that percentage every single time the NFT changes hands. Every time.

Just like with original artwork, digital artwork can be copied.

Forgery is a thing in the real world, with real world art, and has been since art existed. There is nothing exclusive about this with regards to NFTs.

I can tell you this much though, you can't forge something like a Zed Horse. I mean, you could but it wouldn't be good for anything. It would hold absolutely no value because it couldn't be run on the ethereum or polygon blockchain. Meaning you'd just be left with something that looks like horse, but can't do anything. It also wouldn't be verified so selling it would be impossible. No one would buy it because it's not a verified product.

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The only reason NFTs have value is because people have been convinced that they have value, and that only works as long as enough people keep believing it.
You mean like, I don't know, literally everything in the world? That's how every product that has ever existed, currently exists, and will exist in the future's value is determined.

Picasso's artwork only has value because people have been convinced that it has value, and that only works as long as enough people keep believing it. Shockingly, Picasso, nor his estate, gets jack **** when any of his artwork is sold.
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Old 16th November 2021, 03:01 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You're getting something in return. When you buy an NFT you are receiving something. Whether it's worth the amount you paid for it to people other than you, I have no idea. Just like baseball cards. If I pay $100 for a baseball card that's worth exactly **** all to someone else, I haven't been involved in a Ponzi scheme. I bought something that has value to me, and don't even get me started about how much money fell out of the baseball and sport card market in the 90s.
Any collectible craze is just as much nonsense, and just as much a psychological trick. Which is why the market eventually collapses when people stop caring. And you're not even getting baseball cards. You're getting things that say you own a baseball card, often a baseball card that anyone can get for nothing.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No idea what environmental cost you're referring to, but you don't have to explain it to me. I don't really care.
A ridiculous amount of greenhouse gas emissions just to keep the nonsense going.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's not different than gambling, it's literally horse races, but in digital form. The NFT's contribute in that most people can't afford to own a legitimate racehorse. They're rather expensive from what I understand. It's just like every other game that exists on the planet. You pay to participate. It's like a character in an MMORPG. You can play it, then when you're done with it you can sell it, then someone else can buy it, play it, rinse and repeat. Standard stuff.
And to me it sounds like a solution in search of a problem. Are you saying that you couldn't achieve an equivalent environment without NFTs?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Every time an NFT is sold on sites like OpenSea the creator gets a percentage. There's a "creator royalty" that the person who creates it can set when they add it to the market and they receive that percentage every single time the NFT changes hands. Every time.

Just like with original artwork, digital artwork can be copied.

Forgery is a thing in the real world, with real world art, and has been since art existed. There is nothing exclusive about this with regards to NFTs.
And again, you're not buying the artwork, you're buying a thing that says you own the artwork, even though other people can literally own the exact same artwork, but without the thing that says they own the artwork. It's not a forgery, it's the original artwork.

The fact that a broken system can help artists circumvent the changes the digital landscape has brought doesn't mean that it isn't a broken system. And I predict that it won't keep helping them for long.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You mean like, I don't know, literally everything in the world? That's how every product that has ever existed, currently exists, and will exist in the future's value is determined.

And if I sell an imaginary bridge to a rich old lady with dementia, I'm playing the same game.


Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Picasso's artwork only has value because people have been convinced that it has value, and that only works as long as enough people keep believing it. Shockingly, Picasso, nor his estate, gets jack **** when any of his artwork is sold.
Picasso's artwork is actually the original artwork. A real equivalent would be Picasso creating an infinite amount of artworks and selling them for $5, but only creating one certificate of ownership, and selling that for billions.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:14 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don’t think the RIPs that buy art at such silly prices really care that much about the art, it is only for the bragging rights and/or investment.

If it was truly the artwork that was important to them they would be happy with a very good copy, one that is indistinguishable from an original. (Even if you wanted a genuine oil painting there are many artists out there that can fool the best experts in the world.)
WHich makes the Tulipmania comparasion spot on.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:16 PM   #127
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I feel sorry for the poor fools who hang on to there NFT's thinking they will be worth a lot of money someday, forgetting that scarcity is the main driving force behind the price of any collectable.
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Old 16th November 2021, 08:30 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I feel sorry for the poor fools who hang on to there NFT's thinking they will be worth a lot of money someday, forgetting that scarcity is the main driving force behind the price of any collectable.
You're just trying to buy my rarest Beanie Baby, Fuglo the Narwhal! No dice, I'm holding onto it until it's worth half a billion.
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Old 17th November 2021, 06:39 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I feel sorry for the poor fools who hang on to there NFT's thinking they will be worth a lot of money someday, forgetting that scarcity is the main driving force behind the price of any collectable.

I used to have a first printing of the Squadron Supreme trade paperback from Marvel. The author died, was cremated, and his ashes were mixed into the ink of the first printing. I didn't buy it for the ashes, I just happened to get a first printing in the store. Years later I thought "I want this for the story. I don't care about the composition of the ink." I sold it on eBay and bought a much cheaper 6th or 7th printing. I think I made about $50 profit.
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Old 17th November 2021, 06:50 AM   #130
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The one thing I still cannot get my head around is people creating NFTs for some "art" that they didn't create and don't own. Early in this thread there was talk about someone making a NFT for the first tweet, and someone else lamenting that others had made a NFT of his own work.

So let's say an artist makes a piece of art. I, who has no connection to the artist, make a NFT. A few days later, my neighbor also makes a NFT of this same work. Then some weeks after that the actual artist makes a NFT of his own work. Now I understand that each of these three NFTs is unique and distinguishable from each other.

But which one is "valid"? Or maybe it is better to ask, which one has more "value"? Is it the first one created? The one created by the artist? Does each one potentially mean something different to different people?
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Old 17th November 2021, 06:57 AM   #131
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I really don’t get why anyone would want to buy one of these things, aside from finding some other fool who will pay more than what I paid for it.
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Old 17th November 2021, 07:07 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I feel sorry for the poor fools who hang on to there NFT's thinking they will be worth a lot of money someday, forgetting that scarcity is the main driving force behind the price of any collectable.
Detective Comics #27 is rare. A digital image of the cover of #27 is not, whether it’s “original” or not. I can purchase a digital copy of the complete issue for about 5 bucks from Amazon. Why would I spend five figures on a digital “original”?
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Old 17th November 2021, 11:26 AM   #133
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LoL well it seems you're all in agreement that you have absolutely no idea how any of it works, or why anyone would be interested. So it appears any conversation is pointless.

Enjoy your echo chamber.
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Old 17th November 2021, 03:06 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Detective Comics #27 is rare. A digital image of the cover of #27 is not, whether it’s “original” or not. I can purchase a digital copy of the complete issue for about 5 bucks from Amazon. Why would I spend five figures on a digital “original”?
Exactly.
You can also get one of many paper reprints of Detective 27 and Action Comics 1 for a few bucks.
For the non comic geeks, Detective 27 was the first appreance of Batman back in 1939, and Action was the debut of Superman in 1938.
An original printing of those in good condition can bring Hundreds of Thousands of dollars at a minimum. The last mint condition of Action one a few years ago ( a guy found it going through this deceased grandparents trunk) went at auction for well over a Million dollars.
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Old 17th November 2021, 04:13 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
LoL well it seems you're all in agreement that you have absolutely no idea how any of it works, or why anyone would be interested. So it appears any conversation is pointless.

Enjoy your echo chamber.
I think people have absolutely no idea why anyone would be interested because they do understand how it works.
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Old 18th November 2021, 07:07 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
LoL well it seems you're all in agreement that you have absolutely no idea how any of it works, or why anyone would be interested. So it appears any conversation is pointless.

Enjoy your echo chamber.
The hell?

It's not an echo chamber if nobody is actually presenting alternative arguments.

Everyone agree isn't an echo chamber unless there's an actual counter argument being presented.

We all agree 2+2=4. That's not an echo chamber.
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Old 18th November 2021, 07:50 AM   #137
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I can sort of understand nfts insome contexts. Plague's racehorse version appears to be a ticket to a competition. It is a little harder to see the value of a title for something of no particular value alone, or of art that is equally available free, and in many if not all cases is poor anyway.

Over the years I've acquired some pretty nice art, not the stuff of big museums, not stuff of which you can get copies or prints. But they are worth a bit and look good on the walls. What would an nft gain here without the originals? What would be the advantage of an nft world? There is certainly something odd in the idea that one might sell the title to something without selling the thing itself, and even odder selling the title to something you don't own.
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Old 18th November 2021, 09:19 AM   #138
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It could work as a sort of proof of funding. It's still kind of silly, but I can see why someone would want to brag about their own contribution to an artist's endeavours.

"This is the NFT that saved Rock 'n' Roll. Bids start at 8 billion."

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Old 18th November 2021, 12:22 PM   #139
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The problem with NFTs isn't the concept, it's that they just come outright and say it.

We've had NFTs since we've had the base concept of a digital good (and before) we just kept in the subtext and not the text.

Again the David Wong article I posted earlier breaks it down nicely. Pretty much all media IS post-scarcity, the second one copy of it is created there's no more sunk cost to making more of it.
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Old 19th November 2021, 09:58 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We all agree 2+2=4. That's not an echo chamber.
Because it's a fact. You seriously need this explained to you? The arguments here of "NFTs are bad" aren't fact, at all.

Look at just the environmental cost argument, which is misplaced. It's like blaming Olympic athletes or soccer\football (whatever) players or cricket players or any athlete for the environmental impact of the stadium that was built for the field they play on. Which in some cases is drastic, and some even get abandoned after single event uses, for stadiums costing millions and ruining acres of land.

However, you don't run on the field and throw **** at the players while screaming about climate change and greenhouse gases.

NFT's merely exist on a blockchain. You don't have to mine NFTs, they're minted. I've never mined crypto personally, my job does it, but I haven't and I have a dozenish NFTs. That's just one point among many.
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Old 19th November 2021, 10:58 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Because it's a fact. You seriously need this explained to you? The arguments here of "NFTs are bad" aren't fact, at all.

Look at just the environmental cost argument, which is misplaced. It's like blaming Olympic athletes or soccer\football (whatever) players or cricket players or any athlete for the environmental impact of the stadium that was built for the field they play on. Which in some cases is drastic, and some even get abandoned after single event uses, for stadiums costing millions and ruining acres of land.

However, you don't run on the field and throw **** at the players while screaming about climate change and greenhouse gases.

NFT's merely exist on a blockchain. You don't have to mine NFTs, they're minted. I've never mined crypto personally, my job does it, but I haven't and I have a dozenish NFTs. That's just one point among many.
But people do complain about the environmental impact of arguably frivilous activities, which does include various competitions.

However, some things are more egregious than others, and even the worst offenders usually create *something*, even if it's just entertainment.

I grant that NFTs can have uses, like in your race horse example, but when it comes to art, it's like hooking up a scam to a combustion engine.

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Old 19th November 2021, 11:36 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
A psychological trick? Things are as valuable as the market makes them.

When I buy a Zed Horse NFT, I immediately race that NFT in a game. I pay an entrance fee to join the race, if I place in the top 3 I get part of the prize pool.

It's literally horse racing. Just like with horse racing my horses value is good or bad depending on how she does.

If you don't understand NFT's then that's totally fine, but I deposited the $4,000USD that I made into my bank account. I then spent that on computer parts, and other fun ****. There's no fake value. Different things hold value to different people. Digital artists are just as talented, and impressive as any real-world artistry. Implying any different is just snobbery.
But that is very different from art NFTs. Zed is a game where you buy digital horses train and breed them then race them. They can earn money and have a value. While you use cyber currency to buy them and the horses have Blockchain ownership it is really no different to many games that use traditional currencies. You regularly hear of people creating characters in games building up their skills and attributes and selling them

That is different to the art NFTs which have no means of earning you money unless you can find someone to pay you more for it than you paid.

Buying a zed horse or a game character lets you play a game, it gives you entertainment. An art NFT doesn't other than the ability to tell someone that you don't own the Mona Lisa you can't sell it, rent it or do anything with it but you do own a 1/10000 of a 'digital ownership' of the Mona Lisa. That digital ownership has ownership in the name but gives the 'owners' no rights of ownership of the Mona Lisa itself.

If you want an equivalent think of me selling NFTs in one of your horses in Zed. It doesn't change the fact that you still own the horse, you keep all the winnings, you decide what to do with it, you can sell it and keep all the money What I am selling gives no rights over your horse. Whomever buys my NFTs can pretend they own your horse and if your horse does really well some muppets may want to do that, but ultimately what I am selling is worthless.
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Old 19th November 2021, 01:20 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
But that is very different from art NFTs. Zed is a game where you buy digital horses train and breed them then race them. They can earn money and have a value. While you use cyber currency to buy them and the horses have Blockchain ownership it is really no different to many games that use traditional currencies. You regularly hear of people creating characters in games building up their skills and attributes and selling them

That is different to the art NFTs which have no means of earning you money unless you can find someone to pay you more for it than you paid.
You don't train them, but my point is that "NFT" doesn't refer to just artwork, or something like that. There are several, several different versions of NFTs.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Buying a zed horse or a game character lets you play a game, it gives you entertainment. An art NFT doesn't other than the ability to tell someone that you don't own the Mona Lisa you can't sell it, rent it or do anything with it but you do own a 1/10000 of a 'digital ownership' of the Mona Lisa. That digital ownership has ownership in the name but gives the 'owners' no rights of ownership of the Mona Lisa itself.

If you want an equivalent think of me selling NFTs in one of your horses in Zed. It doesn't change the fact that you still own the horse, you keep all the winnings, you decide what to do with it, you can sell it and keep all the money What I am selling gives no rights over your horse. Whomever buys my NFTs can pretend they own your horse and if your horse does really well some muppets may want to do that, but ultimately what I am selling is worthless.
Ok.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 06:30 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
A psychological trick? Things are as valuable as the market makes them.

When I buy a Zed Horse NFT, I immediately race that NFT in a game. I pay an entrance fee to join the race, if I place in the top 3 I get part of the prize pool.

It's literally horse racing. Just like with horse racing my horses value is good or bad depending on how she does.

If you don't understand NFT's then that's totally fine, but I deposited the $4,000USD that I made into my bank account. I then spent that on computer parts, and other fun ****. There's no fake value. Different things hold value to different people. Digital artists are just as talented, and impressive as any real-world artistry. Implying any different is just snobbery.
It's pretty clear that in many of these examples, straight up fraud is at play to goose up the value of the NFTs.

"Wash trading" is very easy to do in crypto. A person who controls multiple anonymous wallets can easily generate a false sense of value for an asset by buying and selling it to themselves at increasingly high values, until they finally unload it on some rube that doesn't realize these trades are not actually the product of a market. Once the scammer stops pumping the value through wash trades, the price collapses.

When you see some story about some dumb pixelated art trading for a bajillion dollars, there's a decent chance that no money actually changed hands, but rather someone sending money from one wallet they control to another they control.

https://protos.com/cryptopunk-500m-w...nft-of-course/

Every scam is born again new on the blockchain. Wash trading is pretty hard to do in the traditional finance world because of various regulatory requirements, none of which meaningfully exist in the crypto world.
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Old 24th November 2021, 07:38 AM   #145
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Again, all of what you said might be completely true, but NFTs aren't crypto. They just exist on the crypto blockchain.

If you don't like it, don't invest in it. The money changed hands for me, and $4k really helped me out. I was pleased I got involved. The person who purchased my NFT is actively racing it in a game called Chicken Derby. So he is getting use out of something he purchased from me. If that pisses people off, then I guess those people will have to be pissed off.

Scams happen everywhere and with everything. Real world art, real world stocks and bonds, real world everything. That, for some reason, it's this big panty twisting deal when it happens virtually is just mind boggling to me and reeks of jealousy at not knowing, or being able to take advantage of it.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:03 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Again, all of what you said might be completely true, but NFTs aren't crypto. They just exist on the crypto blockchain.

If you don't like it, don't invest in it. The money changed hands for me, and $4k really helped me out. I was pleased I got involved. The person who purchased my NFT is actively racing it in a game called Chicken Derby. So he is getting use out of something he purchased from me. If that pisses people off, then I guess those people will have to be pissed off.

Scams happen everywhere and with everything. Real world art, real world stocks and bonds, real world everything. That, for some reason, it's this big panty twisting deal when it happens virtually is just mind boggling to me and reeks of jealousy at not knowing, or being able to take advantage of it.
To be fair, a lot of "panty twisting" has also occurred around the plain fact that physical art is often used in various illegal financial schemes. Items with intangible value are often ripe for laundering schemes and fraud.

Your point is correct though. Only the rubes that buy this crap stand to be scammed. Assuming the NFT scam doesn't grow so large to threaten the broader economy, only morons that are chasing get rich schemes stand to get fleeced. Pointing out obvious scams is still a good deed.
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:43 AM   #147
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I think in Plague 311's situation, a case can be made for the NFT's, in the same way a case can be made for a person who amasses a beer can collection, or star wars figurines. The market is in some sense artificial, but if you like what you're buying and like what you're doing with it, it's not fundamentally different from buying good furniture or paying extra for a more stylish car. If owning an NFT entitles you to participate in a race open only to NFT owners, then you're buying a ticket to a race, and if you can benefit from the race, you own something of real potential value.

I still think for most people NFT's are going to prove a bubble, and people who buy and sell NFT's for things of no inherent value, or with no tangible product, are likely participating in a digital Ponzi scheme.
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:53 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think in Plague 311's situation, a case can be made for the NFT's, in the same way a case can be made for a person who amasses a beer can collection, or star wars figurines. The market is in some sense artificial, but if you like what you're buying and like what you're doing with it, it's not fundamentally different from buying good furniture or paying extra for a more stylish car. If owning an NFT entitles you to participate in a race open only to NFT owners, then you're buying a ticket to a race, and if you can benefit from the race, you own something of real potential value.
Agreed. For those who "invested" in Beanie Babies, at least some of them genuinely liked to collect stuffed animals. I actually own one myself, given to me by a coworker. It has a nice weight to it and makes a satisfying clunk when thrown at someone's head.
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:24 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Agreed. For those who "invested" in Beanie Babies, at least some of them genuinely liked to collect stuffed animals. I actually own one myself, given to me by a coworker. It has a nice weight to it and makes a satisfying clunk when thrown at someone's head.
I'm sure a few Dutch tulips were nice to look at, but it's a bit naive to ignore that rampant speculation is the cause d'etre for pretty much all of this crap. The items themselves are merely vessels for a speculative endeavor.
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:26 PM   #150
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I just bought an NFT of an NFT.
PM me if you want to make me an offer for it.
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Old 24th November 2021, 02:27 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I just bought an NFT of an NFT.
PM me if you want to make me an offer for it.
I have an identical one. We can do an exchange
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Old 24th November 2021, 04:04 PM   #152
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Old 24th November 2021, 04:24 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Agreed. For those who "invested" in Beanie Babies, at least some of them genuinely liked to collect stuffed animals. I actually own one myself, given to me by a coworker. It has a nice weight to it and makes a satisfying clunk when thrown at someone's head.
But that's just it. NFTs of art aren't even Beanie Babies. They are literally nothing. It's data that is special because someone says it's special. But there's nothing that makes it special outside of that claim.
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Old 24th November 2021, 07:08 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
But that's just it. NFTs of art aren't even Beanie Babies. They are literally nothing. It's data that is special because someone says it's special. But there's nothing that makes it special outside of that claim.
By that standard, cash is only special because someone says it's special.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:39 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
By that standard, cash is only special because someone says it's special.
Bad comparison. Money is a tool for commerce. It isn't special by itself, it's just part of a system to faciliate trade.

NFTs aren't a tool for anything (except when they are, but this isn't about those cases).
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:03 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
By that standard, cash is only special because someone says it's special.
Money may be special only because it's said to be, but if everyone says it is, then functionally it is. By its very definition a NON fungible token is not money, which even bears on the bills the reminder that it is fungible "legal tender". If I have a dollar I can buy a dollar's worth of goods, pay a dollar's worth of debt, even pay a dollar's worth of taxes back to the government that issued it.
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:18 PM   #157
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While technically correct (the best kind of correct) I think both of you are missing my point. Money only has the value it has because someone has decided that it has. Money is totally arbitrary, and it has value only inasmuch as it can be exchanged for something of value. Money doesn't have value because it is rare, or because it is useful, or because it is beautiful.

An NFT, on the other hand, has value because it is attached to something that is rare, or useful, or beautiful. It gets its value from the thing that it is attached to. It gets its value because it is verification of that thing's genuineness. By itself, an NFT has no value. But NFTs don't occur by themselves. The value of the NFT is not inherent. The value of the NFT is the value of the thing that it is attached to - be that a digital artwork, a racehorse, or whatever the heck people are attaching NFTs to these days. And these things have value for the same reason that "genuine" real world artworks and racehorses have value - because they are rare, or useful, or beautiful.
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:19 PM   #158
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Also, this:

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Old 25th November 2021, 04:48 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
While technically correct (the best kind of correct) I think both of you are missing my point. Money only has the value it has because someone has decided that it has. Money is totally arbitrary, and it has value only inasmuch as it can be exchanged for something of value. Money doesn't have value because it is rare, or because it is useful, or because it is beautiful.

An NFT, on the other hand, has value because it is attached to something that is rare, or useful, or beautiful. It gets its value from the thing that it is attached to. It gets its value because it is verification of that thing's genuineness. By itself, an NFT has no value. But NFTs don't occur by themselves. The value of the NFT is not inherent. The value of the NFT is the value of the thing that it is attached to - be that a digital artwork, a racehorse, or whatever the heck people are attaching NFTs to these days. And these things have value for the same reason that "genuine" real world artworks and racehorses have value - because they are rare, or useful, or beautiful.

But an NFT doesn't do what people say it does. It isn't a verification of genuineness. That's not how digital art works. If I copy an original digital artwork, I don't end up with an original and a copy, I now have two originals. An NFT doesn't make an artwork rare, and it doesn't make anyone "own the original". It has absolutely no connection to the artwork and absolutely no useful application.

Money on the other hand actually does what it is meant to do. It facilitates trade. It has value because of the system in which it is used. The moment the system collapses, it loses it's value. An exchange of money is like a very simplified contract that enables the procurement of goods and services in other places.
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:11 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
But an NFT doesn't do what people say it does. It isn't a verification of genuineness. That's not how digital art works. If I copy an original digital artwork, I don't end up with an original and a copy, I now have two originals. An NFT doesn't make an artwork rare, and it doesn't make anyone "own the original". It has absolutely no connection to the artwork and absolutely no useful application.
Indeed, and if any of these NFT owners wanted to assert their rights to a particular piece of art, they'd use the same old copyright pre-crypto laws. Hell, the NFT backbone of these pieces of art say very little about the legitimate owner of the art piece, it just provides a transaction history.

There is a glut of people stealing artwork and minting them into NFTs, and if the actual owner sends a DMCA takedown, the hosted link gets taken down and the NFT leads to a dead end.


Quote:
The DMCA takedown seemingly caused a panic for the buyer: Kento Inami, a Japanese former derivatives trader that now runs UXD Protocol, a self-described "algorithmic stablecoin, backed 100% by delta neutral position."

"I politely demand to speak to @withFND Ceo right now, like ******* right now," said Inami in a tweet directed at the Foundation platform where the NFT was minted. "I bought a pic of a furry for $100k and I see no furry due to your incompetence, either you give me back my furry or I will sue with the best US lawyers."
https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkpb...ck-mindset-war

Its fine if people want to engage a rampant speculative market in get rich quick schemes, but we shouldn't pretend that this technology provides anything novel when it comes to "proving" ownership. Copyright remains king and NFT doesn't change that.
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