NFTs - Page 9

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Is it true that every single NFT transaction is fraudulent? What is your evidence?

I said scams. Only some of them are outright frauds.

EaglePuncher · 30th March 2022, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Is it true that every single NFT transaction is fraudulent? What is your evidence?

Where is your evidence for the claim you made, you know, the one with the "other uses"?

bruto · 30th March 2022, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Obviously you don't.

What you mean and what you say seem to differ. If you cannot name even potential uses, much less those that are used or useful, you are asking for faith.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 07:02 AM

I am very interested in any explanation for why the individual pieces of the Bored Ape Yacht Club are artistically valuable enough to justify the huge prices we see rather than being the obvious speculative bubble propped up by a variety of dishonest tactics.

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

Where is your evidence for the claim you made, you know, the one with the "other uses"?

Originally Posted by bruto

What you mean and what you say seem to differ. If you cannot name even potential uses, much less those that are used or useful, you are asking for faith.

I've named a few other uses for NFTs in this very thread. You guys can go back and read them if you'd like or if you're actually interested here is a breakdown of a ton of "utility NFTs" that have various real world applications.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

I've named a few other uses for NFTs in this very thread. You guys can go back and read them if you'd like or if you're actually interested here is a breakdown of a ton of "utility NFTs" that have various real world applications.

Gonna go ahead and doubt that "play to earn" games have "utility", unless you consider feeding rubes into the gaping maw of financial predators a utility.

I would agree many NFTs have "utility", if you consider running scams a utility.

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Gonna go ahead and doubt that "play to earn" games have "utility", unless you consider feeding rubes into the gaping maw of financial predators a utility.

A question was asked, I answered. "Play to earn" is just the same exact thing as gambling, which is legal and fun for some people. I mean, that also ignores the metric **** ton of other utility NFTs that were listed in that article that I'm sure you never clicked on.

But yes, ST, as per usual, you handwave away anything that conflicts with your absolute ******* hatred of NFTs and crypto. That's why it's not really important to gain your acknowledgement of the utilities of NFTs. Why try to convince someone that a) doesn't want to be convinced b) would accept absolutely nothing that conflicts with his bias as evidence? I mean, no offense, but you're the last person I'd try to convince here. It would be a monumental waste of my time.

ETA: Do you have "scam" just saved on your clipboard that you repeatedly press when making these posts? You use it like a period, and most of the time completely incorrectly. There's no "scam" in games like zed run. It's straight forward, just like normal horse racing. You buy a horse, you race the horse, you either win or lose. No scam. I know you NEED to talk as much **** about them as possible, and please continue doing so, it really makes me laugh, but at least try to clean it up a little. You're getting sloppy.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

A question was asked, I answered. "Play to earn" is just the same exact thing as gambling, which is legal and fun for some people. I mean, that also ignores the metric **** ton of other utility NFTs that were listed in that article that I'm sure you never clicked on.

Yes, gambling is a fun and sometimes legal hobby. It's noteworthy that these NFT play to earn games seem to evade many of the laws that are created to regulate gambling, which is widely regarded as being incredibly predatory and destructive if not carefully controlled.

The only novel element that crypto brings to these games is that it currently seems to exist outside of the existing regulatory framework, which is why these scams are popping up left and right.

ETA: Play to earn games are revolutionizing the loan sharking industry. One game, Axie, has a "scholarship" program where people who can't afford to buy into the game can sell themselves into digital indentured servitude:

Quote:

The idea was originally introduced by the Axie Infinity player community. Owners of Axies, the NFT pets that are required to play the game, would loan their assets to new players who didn’t own any Axies of their own.
With the rising popularity of Axie Infinity, the price to buy the NFT pets needed to play the game has increased significantly. This has created a barrier to entry for some players, especially those that are new to play-to-earn. Understandably, not all people are willing or able to invest in purchasing their own NFTs upfront.
As such, a scholarship is a popular pathway to onboard newcomers to NFT games. Yield Guild provides scholarships to new players as a revenue-sharing model, where the guild invests in NFT assets and rents them to new players so they can start playing and earning in-game tokens without having to invest any money upfront.
The recipient of a scholarship is known as a scholar. The only upfront requirement of the scholar is their time spent playing the game, their enthusiasm and their willingness to learn.
The scholar’s earnings are split between the scholar (70%), Yield Guild (10%), and the Community Manager (20%). The Community Manager is responsible for recruiting, training and mentoring the new player.

https://medium.com/yield-guild-games...s-bb1e097c2a61

Finally, the one element in gaming that everyone was missing, having a landlord.

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Yes, gambling is a fun and sometimes legal hobby. It's noteworthy that these NFT play to earn games seem to evade many of the laws that are created to regulate gambling, which is widely regarded as being incredibly predatory and destructive if not carefully controlled.

The only novel element that crypto brings to these games is that it currently seems to exist outside of the existing regulatory framework, which is why these scams are popping up left and right.

Sure, sure.

EaglePuncher · 30th March 2022, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

I've named a few other uses for NFTs in this very thread. You guys can go back and read them if you'd like or if you're actually interested here is a breakdown of a ton of "utility NFTs" that have various real world applications.

Thanks, looks like all these "various real world applications" can be summarized as "make money with Nfts"

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 07:53 AM

Play to earn games with "scholarship" programs are popular in poor parts of the globe, where $2/hr is a competitive local wage.

Sure, they're handing over 55% of their "earned" wages to their lendors, but hey, don't call it a scam

Quote:

In a statement sent to Cointelegraph, Sergei Sergienko, co-founder of CGU, explained that players are not required to pay anything to start playing. Instead, CGU funds all characters/NFTs costs via a scholarship, which can amount to $4,000 per player. What's more, CGU provides education and mentoring for its partnered players to enhance their cryptocurrency knowledge and gaming skills. In exchange, CGU takes a 50% commission on players' earnings, some of which are issued to investors of the CGU token; afterward, 5% of earnings go to local management in the countries in which CGU operates, with players keeping the remaining 45%. In addition, the company is currently trialing a "pension plan" of 3% to 5% for its players as a social security initiative.

According to Sergienko, top players earn up to 680 SLPs per day on a net basis (after CGU's cut). The game time for top players is around six hours daily. Meanwhile, players on the lower end of the earnings can make approximately $120 for 60 hours of play each month. Even this amount surpasses the minimum wage for full-time work in countries such as the Philippines and Russia on a pro-rated basis, where Axie Infinity is very popular. CGU claims to also attract many Axie players from Cuba, Venezuela, Turkmenistan, Myanmar and African nations.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/axie-...h-scholarships

Sure sounds like a fun "game", not just the depraved manifestation of extreme poverty.

JoeMorgue · 30th March 2022, 07:59 AM

"But whattabout good pyramid schemes? Nobody ever talks about those!"

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

Thanks, looks like all these "various real world applications" can be summarized as "make money with Nfts"

Yeah, that's true. Definitely in comparison to all of the other utilities that exist in the real world that aren't designed to make money. Like...uhm...well...for instance...uhm. Well, ****. It looks like pretty much all of them are to make money. Crazy, that.

Another instance of "it's only bad if crypto does it".

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"But whattabout good pyramid schemes? Nobody ever talks about those!"

Nailed it, top notch "strawman in quotes" argument. Very on brand.

xjx388 · 30th March 2022, 09:21 AM

I think NFTs are more like a fad than a scam. They are no more inherently scammy than anything else out there designed to make money.

While I don’t see a point to owning NBA video clips, bored apes, digital art pieces, someone’s tweet, etc etc, I’m not going to sit here and judge people who do find value in those things or those who want to sell to those people.

If we are going to call NFTs a “scam,” simply because they can create a speculative market and are ripe for abuse then we really have to consider that any number of other things we all buy and enjoy are also scams: Pokémon, Sports Cards, Garbage Pail Kids, Magic the Gathering cards, “freemium” mobile games, Wi/PS/XBOX, comic books, Beanie Babies, Fine Art, vintage wine, antiques, in-demand concert and sporting event tickets, etc.

NFTs are not scams simply because one may not find any value to it. They aren’t scams simply because some people will abuse them.

In fact, I can see many legitimate things moving to an NFT model in the future. One example: Concert/sports tickets are already halfway there. Making each ticket an NFT would allow resale on open markets AND allow artists/teams to get a percentage of every resale over face value.

Once the fad phase ends, I do think there will be a legitimate use case for NFTs in many areas.

EaglePuncher · 30th March 2022, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Yeah, that's true. Definitely in comparison to all of the other utilities that exist in the real world that aren't designed to make money. Like...uhm...well...for instance...uhm. Well, ****. It looks like pretty much all of them are to make money. Crazy, that.

So you agree that NFTs do not have "numerous uses" or "various real world applications"?

Originally Posted by plague311

Another instance of "it's only bad if crypto does it".

No, another instance of "Neither Crypto nor NFTs have any value but a price that some idiot is willing to play"

xjx388 · 30th March 2022, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

No, another instance of "Neither Crypto nor NFTs have any value but a price that some idiot is willing to play"

That’s true of every good sold on an open market.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

I think NFTs are more like a fad than a scam. They are no more inherently scammy than anything else out there designed to make money.

While I don’t see a point to owning NBA video clips, bored apes, digital art pieces, someone’s tweet, etc etc, I’m not going to sit here and judge people who do find value in those things or those who want to sell to those people.

If we are going to call NFTs a “scam,” simply because they can create a speculative market and are ripe for abuse then we really have to consider that any number of other things we all buy and enjoy are also scams: Pokémon, Sports Cards, Garbage Pail Kids, Magic the Gathering cards, “freemium” mobile games, Wi/PS/XBOX, comic books, Beanie Babies, Fine Art, vintage wine, antiques, in-demand concert and sporting event tickets, etc.

NFTs are not scams simply because one may not find any value to it. They aren’t scams simply because some people will abuse them.

In fact, I can see many legitimate things moving to an NFT model in the future. One example: Concert/sports tickets are already halfway there. Making each ticket an NFT would allow resale on open markets AND allow artists/teams to get a percentage of every resale over face value.

Once the fad phase ends, I do think there will be a legitimate use case for NFTs in many areas.

I agree in part, but there are some unique features of NFTs that make them especially useful as scam vehicles.

The semi-anonymous nature of the crypto market makes it far, far easier to engage in price manipulation like wash trading, which is absolutely rampant. The non-reversible, totally unpoliced nature of the the transactions make it ideal for cyber theft. Its novel status currently operates outside of the existing regulatory system that exists to limit the extremes of financial speculation and predation.

In the broadest strokes, NFTs aren't special. It's just another speculative bubble that scammers and fraudsters glob onto. But there are very specific elements of the technology that makes it especially well-equipped for scamming.

EaglePuncher · 30th March 2022, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

That’s true of every good sold on an open market.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Cars and furniture just materialize out of thin air in the factories and are packed and shipped. Also Crypto and NFTs, right?

xjx388 · 30th March 2022, 09:38 AM

You think the stuff sold with NFTs materializes out of thin air?

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

So you agree that NFTs do not have "numerous uses" or "various real world applications"?

No, I don't agree, I was being sarcastic. I provided a link that has a ton of real world uses and applications for NFTs. You, like ST, just refuse to accept anything that contradicts your confirmation bias. You will NEVER see any of those applications for the sole reason that you just don't want to. It's that simple.

Did you even read the link? Hell, there are even climate change tokens and NFTs that are used to try further climate change goals. Klima is one of them.

So no, I don't agree with you.

ZirconBlue · 30th March 2022, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

If we are going to call NFTs a “scam,” simply because they can create a speculative market and are ripe for abuse then we really have to consider that any number of other things we all buy and enjoy are also scams: Pokémon, Sports Cards, Garbage Pail Kids, Magic the Gathering cards, “freemium” mobile games, Wi/PS/XBOX, comic books, Beanie Babies, Fine Art, vintage wine, antiques, in-demand concert and sporting event tickets, etc.

The big difference, to me, is that with most of those things, even if the price plummets you still have a thing. You can still play Magic the Gathering, or drink the expensive wine, etc. With NFTs you basically have a file that's likely identical to one you could have gotten for free on the internet somewhere.

bruto · 30th March 2022, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

You think the stuff sold with NFTs materializes out of thin air?

Though I'm willing to agree that NFT's are more a fad than a scam, in a way much of the stuff sold with NFT's does seem to materialize out of thin air if the word "materialize" is even applicable. While an NFT can point to a real thing, and can in some circumstances have a material consequence, there seems little mechanism for discerning when this is true. And when it is not, then the NFT really does materialize out of thin air, because it's made of nothing more, a virtual title to nothing but itself.

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

The big difference, to me, is that with most of those things, even if the price plummets you still have a thing.

If it's worthless digitally or worthless physically, it's still worthless. I have tons of stuff in my house that was expensive but worth nothing anymore. I feel like you're saying, "I'd rather have physical trash than digital". Which, if that's your thing, I won't hold it against you.

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

You can still play Magic the Gathering, or drink the expensive wine, etc. With NFTs you basically have a file that's likely identical to one you could have gotten for free on the internet somewhere.

Again, this can be applied to a lot of things. Baseball cards of the late 80s and 90s were so mass produced that they're worth nothing. The equivalent of "a file that's like identical to one you have gotten for free" with a pack of gum. Maybe there's a difference in your eyes, I guess I just view it as the same.

xjx388 · 30th March 2022, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

The big difference, to me, is that with most of those things, even if the price plummets you still have a thing. You can still play Magic the Gathering, or drink the expensive wine, etc. With NFTs you basically have a file that's likely identical to one you could have gotten for free on the internet somewhere.

But you do have something: with NFTs you have a unique digital file that says you own something. If I buy one of the "Bored Ape" NFTs, I have a token that gives me ownership to that Ape along with some other perks which amount to an interactive digital space that I can access. Now, we can argue all day about if it was worth about $200 to buy one when they were initially released; my argument is a resounding, "Hell NO!" Are they worth well north of $300k today? My response is: "What the hell is wrong with people?" But that's just my opinion, the whole thing looks stupid to me. Then again, the modern video game landscape in general -where you buy skins, weapons, etc that only have utility in the game itself- is pretty stupid too. But millions of people disagree with me about videogames and at least 10,000 people disagree with me about the stupid Apes.

Those video games will disappear someday, as the game falls out of favor and isn't worth the upkeep on servers. The only thing left of it will be the memory of having played it. That rare wine? Gone once you drink it. The exact same thing is true of the Bored Ape and other similar NFT based things. They may last awhile, like MTG has or they may fade away into nothing but a memory. If someone gets some enjoyment out of participating in this NFT fad, however long it might last, then I can't call it a scam any more than I can any other thing that I might think is stupid.

thines · 30th March 2022, 11:40 AM

Can it really be a coincidence that NFT is also the abbreviation for neurofibrillary tangles, one of the major histopathological signs of Alzheimer's Disease?

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 11:46 AM

Speak of the devil:

Quote:

The latest crypto hack may be the largest yet.

The gaming-focused Ronin network announced Tuesday a loss of over $625 million in USDC and ether (ETH).

According to a blog post published by the Ronin network’s official Substack, the exploit affected Ronin validator nodes for Sky Mavis, the publishers of the popular Axie Infinity game, and the Axie DAO.

https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/0...-625m-exploit/

My apes! They're gone!

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 11:50 AM

No apes, but props on finding an actual "hack" rather than just social engineering.

Thank God this never, EVER happens in the normal financial industry.

Edited by zooterkin:

removed breach of rule 12

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

No apes, but props on finding an actual "hack" rather than just social engineering.

Thank God this never, EVER happens in the normal financial industry. Though, if it did, you probably wouldn't gleefully post it like Bogative in the mass shootings thread.

I actually have the same reaction to non-crypto scams, regulatory action should be taken to make such events impossible or at least much more unlikely, and entire types of financial schemes that are prone to scams should be made extinct.

The difference here is that the inherent design of crypto markets makes that very difficult, and besides running to the FBI whenever their apes get stolen, the entire community is positively allergic to the idea of oversight.

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I actually have the same reaction to non-crypto scams, regulatory action should be taken to make such events impossible or at least much more unlikely, and entire types of financial schemes that are prone to scams should be made extinct.

Hmm, I must have missed that thread or those posts.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The difference here is that the inherent design of crypto markets makes that very difficult, and besides running to the FBI whenever their apes get stolen, the entire community is positively allergic to the idea of oversight.

See, this is where it all falls off the track. Really? The "entire community"? Sure, hyperbole works in some situations, but I, as a crypto holder, have no issues with the idea of oversight. I'm fine with it, and so are a ton of other people I would bet. If you need the ACHAB (all crypto holders are bastards) narrative to support your story, then keep pretending like what you're saying is true. It's not, and that won't stop you, but at least some of us see through it.

bruto · 30th March 2022, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Speak of the devil:

https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/0...-625m-exploit/

My apes! They're gone!

Yes, sure, but the fact that a thing is easy to steal does not make either the thing or the stealing something else. If you want ownership of a silly ape drawing, more fool you perhaps, but it's still yours and the person who steals it is still a thief.

We can argue on and on about how inherent that risk is for crypto and NFT's, but this crime is not of a different type.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

Yes, sure, but the fact that a thing is easy to steal does not make either the thing or the stealing something else. If you want ownership of a silly ape drawing, more fool you perhaps, but it's still yours and the person who steals it is still a thief.

We can argue on and on about how inherent that risk is for crypto and NFT's, but this crime is not of a different type.

According to the blockchain, the thief is the only one with any legitimate claim to the stolen coins. The public ledger doesn't lie.

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

According to the blockchain, the thief is the only one with any legitimate claim to the stolen coins. The public ledger doesn't lie.

That's not even relatively close to true. The thief doesn't have a "legitimate" claim, which is why authorities and others are working with them (and others) to get their property back.

What are you gaining from just making **** up like this? What is the point you're trying to make here? The fact you're making these posts that show authorities are cracking down on this behavior while using crypto\NFTs completely flies in the face of the accusations you're making.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

That's not even relatively close to true. The thief doesn't have a "legitimate" claim, which is why authorities and others are working with them (and others) to get their property back.

What are you gaining from just making **** up like this? What is the point you're trying to make here? The fact you're making these posts that show authorities are cracking down on this behavior while using crypto\NFTs completely flies in the face of the accusations you're making.

My point is that everyone knows exactly where the stolen money is, but unless some guy with a gun (aka the state) makes the thief transfer it back, there's nothing that can be done about it thanks to the inherent design of crypto.

And if this thief has a lick of sense, they aren't in any country that is going to take any enforcement action against them.

plague311 · 30th March 2022, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

My point is that everyone knows exactly where the stolen money is, but unless some guy with a gun (aka the state) makes the thief transfer it back, there's nothing that can be done about it thanks to the inherent design of crypto.

How is this different than any other financial theft where the funds are moved off shore, transferred a few times, and then get lost?

That's what I keep trying to get you to explain to me. How is this inherent to the design of crypto when you can do the same exact thing with funds from a regular bank? Again, the Prince of Nigeria scam. Do those people get their money back?

Yes, it sucks, but this isn't a crypto thing. It's a theft thing.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

And if this thief has a lick of sense, they aren't in any country that is going to take any enforcement action against them.

Which is, of course, the same with any crime that's ever happened in the history of humanity. So again, more of the same.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th March 2022, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

How is this different than any other financial theft where the funds are moved off shore, transferred a few times, and then get lost?

That's what I keep trying to get you to explain to me. How is this inherent to the design of crypto when you can do the same exact thing with funds from a regular bank? Again, the Prince of Nigeria scam. Do those people get their money back?

Yes, it sucks, but this isn't a crypto thing. It's a theft thing.

Which is, of course, the same with any crime that's ever happened in the history of humanity. So again, more of the same.

Because banks and financial markets are regulated to hell and back. There are no deregulated banks operating in the US that have $600 million sitting around in a vault to get looted. Are 9 figure robberies of traditional financial institutions something that is happening with the same regularity?

Even if someone knocked over my local credit union, my account is backed by federal insurance. I'm assuming that like most of these other crypto hacks, the account holders are ultimately going to take a hefty haircut on their holdings simply because the money isn't there.

Again and again we see that the largest and most reputable crypto exchanges are the ones getting absolutely cleaned out.

EaglePuncher · 30th March 2022, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by xjx388

You think the stuff sold with NFTs materializes out of thin air?

Guess we won't arrive at any conclusion then...

EaglePuncher · 30th March 2022, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

No, I don't agree, I was being sarcastic. I provided a link that has a ton of real world uses and applications for NFTs. You, like ST, just refuse to accept anything that contradicts your confirmation bias.

Wow, these applications are about making money. Sorry that the scammers webbed you in pretty tight already.

Originally Posted by plague311

You will NEVER see any of those applications for the sole reason that you just don't want to. It's that simple.

Crypto and NFT expert, Mind reader, is there anything you're not good at?

Originally Posted by plague311

Did you even read the link? Hell, there are even climate change tokens and NFTs that are used to try further climate change goals. Klima is one of them.

So no, I don't agree with you.

I almost died laughing. That's like "nuclear war for world peace".

Guess we won't arrive at any conclusion then...

EaglePuncher · 30th March 2022, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by xjx388

But you do have something: with NFTs you have a unique digital file that says you own something. If I buy one of the "Bored Ape" NFTs, I have a token that gives me ownership to that Ape along with some other perks which amount to an interactive digital space that I can access. Now, we can argue all day about if it was worth about $200 to buy one when they were initially released; my argument is a resounding, "Hell NO!" Are they worth well north of $300k today? My response is: "What the hell is wrong with people?" But that's just my opinion, the whole thing looks stupid to me. Then again, the modern video game landscape in general -where you buy skins, weapons, etc that only have utility in the game itself- is pretty stupid too. But millions of people disagree with me about videogames and at least 10,000 people disagree with me about the stupid Apes.

Those video games will disappear someday, as the game falls out of favor and isn't worth the upkeep on servers. The only thing left of it will be the memory of having played it. That rare wine? Gone once you drink it. The exact same thing is true of the Bored Ape and other similar NFT based things. They may last awhile, like MTG has or they may fade away into nothing but a memory. If someone gets some enjoyment out of participating in this NFT fad, however long it might last, then I can't call it a scam any more than I can any other thing that I might think is stupid.

How to shill for NFTs 101. Ridiculous. Well, the Ponzi Scheme needs to be fed.

jnelso99 · 30th March 2022, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by xjx388

But you do have something: with NFTs you have a unique digital file that says you own something. If I buy one of the "Bored Ape" NFTs, I have a token that gives me ownership to that Ape along with some other perks which amount to an interactive digital space that I can access.

But what are you really buying? Are you buying the image or a link to the image? If the URL the NFT was pointing to goes away, what do you have? Does the purchase of an NFT transfer any copyright to the purchaser? If not, it kind of limits what you can do with it. How does it work with the countless NFTs minted by people who stole the artwork from others?

xjx388 · 30th March 2022, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

How to shill for NFTs 101. Ridiculous. Well, the Ponzi Scheme needs to be fed.

You need to look up the definition of “Ponzi scheme,” because it’s definitely not “any scheme to make money,” or “any way of making money that I think is stupid.”

I think NFTs as currently implemented are stupid. Haven’t bought one. That doesn’t make them Ponzi schemes or any other kind of scam.

30th March 2022, 05:38 AM	#321
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by psionl0 Is it true that every single NFT transaction is fraudulent? What is your evidence? I said scams. Only some of them are outright frauds.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th March 2022, 05:47 AM	#322
EaglePuncher Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 483	Originally Posted by psionl0 Is it true that every single NFT transaction is fraudulent? What is your evidence? Where is your evidence for the claim you made, you know, the one with the "other uses"?
	__________________ You know you found a real "conservative" when they complain about virtue signalling while not realizing that they are virtue signalling.

30th March 2022, 06:43 AM	#323
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,389	Originally Posted by psionl0 Obviously you don't. What you mean and what you say seem to differ. If you cannot name even potential uses, much less those that are used or useful, you are asking for faith.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

30th March 2022, 07:02 AM	#324
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	I am very interested in any explanation for why the individual pieces of the Bored Ape Yacht Club are artistically valuable enough to justify the huge prices we see rather than being the obvious speculative bubble propped up by a variety of dishonest tactics.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th March 2022, 07:11 AM	#325
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher Where is your evidence for the claim you made, you know, the one with the "other uses"? Originally Posted by bruto What you mean and what you say seem to differ. If you cannot name even potential uses, much less those that are used or useful, you are asking for faith. I've named a few other uses for NFTs in this very thread. You guys can go back and read them if you'd like or if you're actually interested here is a breakdown of a ton of "utility NFTs" that have various real world applications.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th March 2022, 07:22 AM	#326
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by plague311 I've named a few other uses for NFTs in this very thread. You guys can go back and read them if you'd like or if you're actually interested here is a breakdown of a ton of "utility NFTs" that have various real world applications. Gonna go ahead and doubt that "play to earn" games have "utility", unless you consider feeding rubes into the gaping maw of financial predators a utility. I would agree many NFTs have "utility", if you consider running scams a utility.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 07:24 AM.

30th March 2022, 07:27 AM	#327
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Gonna go ahead and doubt that "play to earn" games have "utility", unless you consider feeding rubes into the gaping maw of financial predators a utility. A question was asked, I answered. "Play to earn" is just the same exact thing as gambling, which is legal and fun for some people. I mean, that also ignores the metric ** ton of other utility NFTs that were listed in that article that I'm sure you never clicked on. But yes, ST, as per usual, you handwave away anything that conflicts with your absolute *** hatred of NFTs and crypto. That's why it's not really important to gain your acknowledgement of the utilities of NFTs. Why try to convince someone that a) doesn't want to be convinced b) would accept absolutely nothing that conflicts with his bias as evidence? I mean, no offense, but you're the last person I'd try to convince here. It would be a monumental waste of my time. ETA: Do you have "scam" just saved on your clipboard that you repeatedly press when making these posts? You use it like a period, and most of the time completely incorrectly. There's no "scam" in games like zed run. It's straight forward, just like normal horse racing. You buy a horse, you race the horse, you either win or lose. No scam. I know you NEED to talk as much ** about them as possible, and please continue doing so, it really makes me laugh, but at least try to clean it up a little. You're getting sloppy.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 30th March 2022 at 07:30 AM.

30th March 2022, 07:40 AM	#328
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by plague311 A question was asked, I answered. "Play to earn" is just the same exact thing as gambling, which is legal and fun for some people. I mean, that also ignores the metric **** ton of other utility NFTs that were listed in that article that I'm sure you never clicked on. Yes, gambling is a fun and sometimes legal hobby. It's noteworthy that these NFT play to earn games seem to evade many of the laws that are created to regulate gambling, which is widely regarded as being incredibly predatory and destructive if not carefully controlled. The only novel element that crypto brings to these games is that it currently seems to exist outside of the existing regulatory framework, which is why these scams are popping up left and right. ETA: Play to earn games are revolutionizing the loan sharking industry. One game, Axie, has a "scholarship" program where people who can't afford to buy into the game can sell themselves into digital indentured servitude: Quote: The idea was originally introduced by the Axie Infinity player community. Owners of Axies, the NFT pets that are required to play the game, would loan their assets to new players who didn’t own any Axies of their own. With the rising popularity of Axie Infinity, the price to buy the NFT pets needed to play the game has increased significantly. This has created a barrier to entry for some players, especially those that are new to play-to-earn. Understandably, not all people are willing or able to invest in purchasing their own NFTs upfront. As such, a scholarship is a popular pathway to onboard newcomers to NFT games. Yield Guild provides scholarships to new players as a revenue-sharing model, where the guild invests in NFT assets and rents them to new players so they can start playing and earning in-game tokens without having to invest any money upfront. The recipient of a scholarship is known as a scholar. The only upfront requirement of the scholar is their time spent playing the game, their enthusiasm and their willingness to learn. The scholar’s earnings are split between the scholar (70%), Yield Guild (10%), and the Community Manager (20%). The Community Manager is responsible for recruiting, training and mentoring the new player. https://medium.com/yield-guild-games...s-bb1e097c2a61 Finally, the one element in gaming that everyone was missing, having a landlord.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 07:48 AM.

30th March 2022, 07:44 AM	#329
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Yes, gambling is a fun and sometimes legal hobby. It's noteworthy that these NFT play to earn games seem to evade many of the laws that are created to regulate gambling, which is widely regarded as being incredibly predatory and destructive if not carefully controlled. The only novel element that crypto brings to these games is that it currently seems to exist outside of the existing regulatory framework, which is why these scams are popping up left and right. Sure, sure.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th March 2022, 07:52 AM	#330
EaglePuncher Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 483	Originally Posted by plague311 I've named a few other uses for NFTs in this very thread. You guys can go back and read them if you'd like or if you're actually interested here is a breakdown of a ton of "utility NFTs" that have various real world applications. Thanks, looks like all these "various real world applications" can be summarized as "make money with Nfts"
	__________________ You know you found a real "conservative" when they complain about virtue signalling while not realizing that they are virtue signalling.

30th March 2022, 07:53 AM	#331
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Play to earn games with "scholarship" programs are popular in poor parts of the globe, where $2/hr is a competitive local wage. Sure, they're handing over 55% of their "earned" wages to their lendors, but hey, don't call it a scam Quote: In a statement sent to Cointelegraph, Sergei Sergienko, co-founder of CGU, explained that players are not required to pay anything to start playing. Instead, CGU funds all characters/NFTs costs via a scholarship, which can amount to $4,000 per player. What's more, CGU provides education and mentoring for its partnered players to enhance their cryptocurrency knowledge and gaming skills. In exchange, CGU takes a 50% commission on players' earnings, some of which are issued to investors of the CGU token; afterward, 5% of earnings go to local management in the countries in which CGU operates, with players keeping the remaining 45%. In addition, the company is currently trialing a "pension plan" of 3% to 5% for its players as a social security initiative. According to Sergienko, top players earn up to 680 SLPs per day on a net basis (after CGU's cut). The game time for top players is around six hours daily. Meanwhile, players on the lower end of the earnings can make approximately $120 for 60 hours of play each month. Even this amount surpasses the minimum wage for full-time work in countries such as the Philippines and Russia on a pro-rated basis, where Axie Infinity is very popular. CGU claims to also attract many Axie players from Cuba, Venezuela, Turkmenistan, Myanmar and African nations. https://cointelegraph.com/news/axie-...h-scholarships Sure sounds like a fun "game", not just the depraved manifestation of extreme poverty.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th March 2022, 07:59 AM	#332
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 39,419	"But whattabout good pyramid schemes? Nobody ever talks about those!"
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

30th March 2022, 08:51 AM	#333
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher Thanks, looks like all these "various real world applications" can be summarized as "make money with Nfts" Yeah, that's true. Definitely in comparison to all of the other utilities that exist in the real world that aren't designed to make money. Like...uhm...well...for instance...uhm. Well, **. It looks like pretty much all of them are to make money. Crazy, that. Another instance of "it's only bad if crypto does it". Originally Posted by JoeMorgue** "But whattabout good pyramid schemes? Nobody ever talks about those!" Nailed it, top notch "strawman in quotes" argument. Very on brand.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 30th March 2022 at 08:53 AM.

30th March 2022, 09:21 AM	#334
xjx388 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 10,763	I think NFTs are more like a fad than a scam. They are no more inherently scammy than anything else out there designed to make money. While I don’t see a point to owning NBA video clips, bored apes, digital art pieces, someone’s tweet, etc etc, I’m not going to sit here and judge people who do find value in those things or those who want to sell to those people. If we are going to call NFTs a “scam,” simply because they can create a speculative market and are ripe for abuse then we really have to consider that any number of other things we all buy and enjoy are also scams: Pokémon, Sports Cards, Garbage Pail Kids, Magic the Gathering cards, “freemium” mobile games, Wi/PS/XBOX, comic books, Beanie Babies, Fine Art, vintage wine, antiques, in-demand concert and sporting event tickets, etc. NFTs are not scams simply because one may not find any value to it. They aren’t scams simply because some people will abuse them. In fact, I can see many legitimate things moving to an NFT model in the future. One example: Concert/sports tickets are already halfway there. Making each ticket an NFT would allow resale on open markets AND allow artists/teams to get a percentage of every resale over face value. Once the fad phase ends, I do think there will be a legitimate use case for NFTs in many areas.
	__________________ Hello.

30th March 2022, 09:25 AM	#335
EaglePuncher Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 483	Originally Posted by plague311 Yeah, that's true. Definitely in comparison to all of the other utilities that exist in the real world that aren't designed to make money. Like...uhm...well...for instance...uhm. Well, ***. It looks like pretty much all of them are to make money. Crazy, that. So you agree that NFTs do not* have "numerous uses" or "various real world applications"? Originally Posted by plague311 Another instance of "it's only bad if crypto does it". No, another instance of "Neither Crypto nor NFTs have any value but a price that some idiot is willing to play"
	__________________ You know you found a real "conservative" when they complain about virtue signalling while not realizing that they are virtue signalling.

30th March 2022, 09:28 AM	#336
xjx388 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 10,763	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher No, another instance of "Neither Crypto nor NFTs have any value but a price that some idiot is willing to play" That’s true of every good sold on an open market.
	__________________ Hello.

30th March 2022, 09:35 AM	#337
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by xjx388 I think NFTs are more like a fad than a scam. They are no more inherently scammy than anything else out there designed to make money. While I don’t see a point to owning NBA video clips, bored apes, digital art pieces, someone’s tweet, etc etc, I’m not going to sit here and judge people who do find value in those things or those who want to sell to those people. If we are going to call NFTs a “scam,” simply because they can create a speculative market and are ripe for abuse then we really have to consider that any number of other things we all buy and enjoy are also scams: Pokémon, Sports Cards, Garbage Pail Kids, Magic the Gathering cards, “freemium” mobile games, Wi/PS/XBOX, comic books, Beanie Babies, Fine Art, vintage wine, antiques, in-demand concert and sporting event tickets, etc. NFTs are not scams simply because one may not find any value to it. They aren’t scams simply because some people will abuse them. In fact, I can see many legitimate things moving to an NFT model in the future. One example: Concert/sports tickets are already halfway there. Making each ticket an NFT would allow resale on open markets AND allow artists/teams to get a percentage of every resale over face value. Once the fad phase ends, I do think there will be a legitimate use case for NFTs in many areas. I agree in part, but there are some unique features of NFTs that make them especially useful as scam vehicles. The semi-anonymous nature of the crypto market makes it far, far easier to engage in price manipulation like wash trading, which is absolutely rampant. The non-reversible, totally unpoliced nature of the the transactions make it ideal for cyber theft. Its novel status currently operates outside of the existing regulatory system that exists to limit the extremes of financial speculation and predation. In the broadest strokes, NFTs aren't special. It's just another speculative bubble that scammers and fraudsters glob onto. But there are very specific elements of the technology that makes it especially well-equipped for scamming.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 09:38 AM.

30th March 2022, 09:36 AM	#338
EaglePuncher Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 483	Originally Posted by xjx388 That’s true of every good sold on an open market. Oh yeah, I forgot. Cars and furniture just materialize out of thin air in the factories and are packed and shipped. Also Crypto and NFTs, right?
	__________________ You know you found a real "conservative" when they complain about virtue signalling while not realizing that they are virtue signalling. Last edited by EaglePuncher; 30th March 2022 at 09:37 AM.

30th March 2022, 09:38 AM	#339
xjx388 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 10,763	You think the stuff sold with NFTs materializes out of thin air?
	__________________ Hello.

30th March 2022, 09:51 AM	#340
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher So you agree that NFTs do not have "numerous uses" or "various real world applications"? No, I don't agree, I was being sarcastic. I provided a link that has a ton of real world uses and applications for NFTs. You, like ST, just refuse to accept anything that contradicts your confirmation bias. You will NEVER see any of those applications for the sole reason that you just don't want to. It's that simple. Did you even read the link? Hell, there are even climate change tokens and NFTs that are used to try further climate change goals. Klima is one of them. So no, I don't agree with you.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th March 2022, 09:52 AM	#341
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lexington, KY, USA, Earth Posts: 14,287	Originally Posted by xjx388 If we are going to call NFTs a “scam,” simply because they can create a speculative market and are ripe for abuse then we really have to consider that any number of other things we all buy and enjoy are also scams: Pokémon, Sports Cards, Garbage Pail Kids, Magic the Gathering cards, “freemium” mobile games, Wi/PS/XBOX, comic books, Beanie Babies, Fine Art, vintage wine, antiques, in-demand concert and sporting event tickets, etc. The big difference, to me, is that with most of those things, even if the price plummets you still have a thing. You can still play Magic the Gathering, or drink the expensive wine, etc. With NFTs you basically have a file that's likely identical to one you could have gotten for free on the internet somewhere.
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

30th March 2022, 09:56 AM	#342
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,389	Originally Posted by xjx388 You think the stuff sold with NFTs materializes out of thin air? Though I'm willing to agree that NFT's are more a fad than a scam, in a way much of the stuff sold with NFT's does seem to materialize out of thin air if the word "materialize" is even applicable. While an NFT can point to a real thing, and can in some circumstances have a material consequence, there seems little mechanism for discerning when this is true. And when it is not, then the NFT really does materialize out of thin air, because it's made of nothing more, a virtual title to nothing but itself.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

30th March 2022, 10:00 AM	#343
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue The big difference, to me, is that with most of those things, even if the price plummets you still have a thing. If it's worthless digitally or worthless physically, it's still worthless. I have tons of stuff in my house that was expensive but worth nothing anymore. I feel like you're saying, "I'd rather have physical trash than digital". Which, if that's your thing, I won't hold it against you. Originally Posted by ZirconBlue You can still play Magic the Gathering, or drink the expensive wine, etc. With NFTs you basically have a file that's likely identical to one you could have gotten for free on the internet somewhere. Again, this can be applied to a lot of things. Baseball cards of the late 80s and 90s were so mass produced that they're worth nothing. The equivalent of "a file that's like identical to one you have gotten for free" with a pack of gum. Maybe there's a difference in your eyes, I guess I just view it as the same.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th March 2022, 11:13 AM	#344
xjx388 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 10,763	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue The big difference, to me, is that with most of those things, even if the price plummets you still have a thing. You can still play Magic the Gathering, or drink the expensive wine, etc. With NFTs you basically have a file that's likely identical to one you could have gotten for free on the internet somewhere. But you do have something: with NFTs you have a unique digital file that says you own something. If I buy one of the "Bored Ape" NFTs, I have a token that gives me ownership to that Ape along with some other perks which amount to an interactive digital space that I can access. Now, we can argue all day about if it was worth about $200 to buy one when they were initially released; my argument is a resounding, "Hell NO!" Are they worth well north of $300k today? My response is: "What the hell is wrong with people?" But that's just my opinion, the whole thing looks stupid to me. Then again, the modern video game landscape in general -where you buy skins, weapons, etc that only have utility in the game itself- is pretty stupid too. But millions of people disagree with me about videogames and at least 10,000 people disagree with me about the stupid Apes. Those video games will disappear someday, as the game falls out of favor and isn't worth the upkeep on servers. The only thing left of it will be the memory of having played it. That rare wine? Gone once you drink it. The exact same thing is true of the Bored Ape and other similar NFT based things. They may last awhile, like MTG has or they may fade away into nothing but a memory. If someone gets some enjoyment out of participating in this NFT fad, however long it might last, then I can't call it a scam any more than I can any other thing that I might think is stupid.
	__________________ Hello.

30th March 2022, 11:40 AM	#345
thines Scholar Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 101	NFTs Can it really be a coincidence that NFT is also the abbreviation for neurofibrillary tangles, one of the major histopathological signs of Alzheimer's Disease?
thines Scholar Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 101

30th March 2022, 11:46 AM	#346
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Speak of the devil: Quote: The latest crypto hack may be the largest yet. The gaming-focused Ronin network announced Tuesday a loss of over $625 million in USDC and ether (ETH). According to a blog post published by the Ronin network’s official Substack, the exploit affected Ronin validator nodes for Sky Mavis, the publishers of the popular Axie Infinity game, and the Axie DAO. https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/0...-625m-exploit/ My apes! They're gone!
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th March 2022, 01:04 PM	#348
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by plague311 No apes, but props on finding an actual "hack" rather than just social engineering. Thank God this never, EVER happens in the normal financial industry. Though, if it did, you probably wouldn't gleefully post it like Bogative in the mass shootings thread. I actually have the same reaction to non-crypto scams, regulatory action should be taken to make such events impossible or at least much more unlikely, and entire types of financial schemes that are prone to scams should be made extinct. The difference here is that the inherent design of crypto markets makes that very difficult, and besides running to the FBI whenever their apes get stolen, the entire community is positively allergic to the idea of oversight.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th March 2022, 01:07 PM	#349
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I actually have the same reaction to non-crypto scams, regulatory action should be taken to make such events impossible or at least much more unlikely, and entire types of financial schemes that are prone to scams should be made extinct. Hmm, I must have missed that thread or those posts. Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The difference here is that the inherent design of crypto markets makes that very difficult, and besides running to the FBI whenever their apes get stolen, the entire community is positively allergic to the idea of oversight. See, this is where it all falls off the track. Really? The "entire community"? Sure, hyperbole works in some situations, but I, as a crypto holder, have no issues with the idea of oversight. I'm fine with it, and so are a ton of other people I would bet. If you need the ACHAB (all crypto holders are bastards) narrative to support your story, then keep pretending like what you're saying is true. It's not, and that won't stop you, but at least some of us see through it.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th March 2022, 01:16 PM	#350
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,389	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Speak of the devil: https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/0...-625m-exploit/ My apes! They're gone! Yes, sure, but the fact that a thing is easy to steal does not make either the thing or the stealing something else. If you want ownership of a silly ape drawing, more fool you perhaps, but it's still yours and the person who steals it is still a thief. We can argue on and on about how inherent that risk is for crypto and NFT's, but this crime is not of a different type.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

30th March 2022, 01:24 PM	#351
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by bruto Yes, sure, but the fact that a thing is easy to steal does not make either the thing or the stealing something else. If you want ownership of a silly ape drawing, more fool you perhaps, but it's still yours and the person who steals it is still a thief. We can argue on and on about how inherent that risk is for crypto and NFT's, but this crime is not of a different type. According to the blockchain, the thief is the only one with any legitimate claim to the stolen coins. The public ledger doesn't lie.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th March 2022, 01:26 PM	#352
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey According to the blockchain, the thief is the only one with any legitimate claim to the stolen coins. The public ledger doesn't lie. That's not even relatively close to true. The thief doesn't have a "legitimate" claim, which is why authorities and others are working with them (and others) to get their property back. What are you gaining from just making **** up like this? What is the point you're trying to make here? The fact you're making these posts that show authorities are cracking down on this behavior while using crypto\NFTs completely flies in the face of the accusations you're making.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th March 2022, 01:29 PM	#353
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by plague311 That's not even relatively close to true. The thief doesn't have a "legitimate" claim, which is why authorities and others are working with them (and others) to get their property back. What are you gaining from just making **** up like this? What is the point you're trying to make here? The fact you're making these posts that show authorities are cracking down on this behavior while using crypto\NFTs completely flies in the face of the accusations you're making. My point is that everyone knows exactly where the stolen money is, but unless some guy with a gun (aka the state) makes the thief transfer it back, there's nothing that can be done about it thanks to the inherent design of crypto. And if this thief has a lick of sense, they aren't in any country that is going to take any enforcement action against them.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 01:32 PM.

30th March 2022, 01:35 PM	#354
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,507	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey My point is that everyone knows exactly where the stolen money is, but unless some guy with a gun (aka the state) makes the thief transfer it back, there's nothing that can be done about it thanks to the inherent design of crypto. How is this different than any other financial theft where the funds are moved off shore, transferred a few times, and then get lost? That's what I keep trying to get you to explain to me. How is this inherent to the design of crypto when you can do the same exact thing with funds from a regular bank? Again, the Prince of Nigeria scam. Do those people get their money back? Yes, it sucks, but this isn't a crypto thing. It's a theft thing. Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey And if this thief has a lick of sense, they aren't in any country that is going to take any enforcement action against them. Which is, of course, the same with any crime that's ever happened in the history of humanity. So again, more of the same.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

30th March 2022, 01:37 PM	#355
SuburbanTurkey Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 15,159	Originally Posted by plague311 How is this different than any other financial theft where the funds are moved off shore, transferred a few times, and then get lost? That's what I keep trying to get you to explain to me. How is this inherent to the design of crypto when you can do the same exact thing with funds from a regular bank? Again, the Prince of Nigeria scam. Do those people get their money back? Yes, it sucks, but this isn't a crypto thing. It's a theft thing. Which is, of course, the same with any crime that's ever happened in the history of humanity. So again, more of the same. Because banks and financial markets are regulated to hell and back. There are no deregulated banks operating in the US that have $600 million sitting around in a vault to get looted. Are 9 figure robberies of traditional financial institutions something that is happening with the same regularity? Even if someone knocked over my local credit union, my account is backed by federal insurance. I'm assuming that like most of these other crypto hacks, the account holders are ultimately going to take a hefty haircut on their holdings simply because the money isn't there. Again and again we see that the largest and most reputable crypto exchanges are the ones getting absolutely cleaned out.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th March 2022 at 01:40 PM.

30th March 2022, 01:51 PM	#356
EaglePuncher Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 483	Originally Posted by xjx388 You think the stuff sold with NFTs materializes out of thin air? Guess we won't arrive at any conclusion then...
	__________________ You know you found a real "conservative" when they complain about virtue signalling while not realizing that they are virtue signalling.