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Tags Russia issues , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war , Ukraine issues , vladimir putin , Volodymyr Zelenskiy

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Old 4th April 2022, 11:10 AM   #361
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Biden says Putin should face war crimes trial for alleged atrocities in Ukraine



I agree with him, and anyone who disagrees and spreads propaganda that calls what happened there "fake news" is beneath contempt.
It's hard to imagine any scenario in which Putin is ever taken into custody for a war crimes trial.
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:14 AM   #362
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Three things:

1: A Russian soldier awarded medals for his part in the de-Nazification exercise. He's got Nazi insignia on his uniform!

2: Another failed Russian propaganda effort. Shows Russian soldiers "minesweeping". Camera person is in front of the sappers, presumably walking backwards through the "minefield".

and much more serious....

3: "Prosecutor General Iryna Venediktova says the atrocities in Borodyanka, Kyiv Oblast, are set to overshadow those committed in Bucha.

“In terms of human casualties, the worst situation is in Borodyanka. There’s a lot to process.""
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:16 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's the priority here? Make a show of taking a hard line against Putin? Or doing whatever can be done to rescue Ukraine and Ukrainians? Because as agreeably laudable as I find Biden's sentiment, I don't really see how it's productive to emphasize it now.
So, its good that Biden said it, but its not productive? Genuinely confused, not sure what you want here? How is Biden saying that counterproductive to doing everything we can to help Ukraine... I mean maybe putting emphasis on the war crimes/civilian slaughter/rape/kidnaping/human shield using puts a bit of pressure on Congress to release more aide? Maybe it gets more people on the side of its time for a no-fly-zone which I support 100% completely now. That's probably the only way the Ukrainian army can get into Mariupol before 100,000 people are murdered or marched off to Siberia.
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:18 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So, its good that Biden said it, but its not productive? Genuinely confused, not sure what you want here? How is Biden saying that counterproductive to doing everything we can to help Ukraine... I mean maybe putting emphasis on the war crimes/civilian slaughter/rape/kidnaping/human shield using puts a bit of pressure on Congress to release more aide? Maybe it gets more people on the side of its time for a no-fly-zone which I support 100% completely now. That's probably the only way the Ukrainian army can get into Mariupol before 100,000 people are murdered or marched off to Siberia.
I'd say it's more likely than not that this war ends with a negotiated peace between Ukraine and Russia. The West taking a hard line against Putin, especially if that means sanctions and other such retaliation don't end should a a peace be reached, would probably make such a negotiation more difficult.
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:32 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'd say it's more likely than not that this war ends with a negotiated peace between Ukraine and Russia. The West taking a hard line against Putin, especially if that means sanctions and other such retaliation don't end should a a peace be reached, would probably make such a negotiation more difficult.
I understand the argument for doing that, I really do. It could end the war and save lives.... but at this point I'd be against negotiating in good faith. Sure, we could say we won't accept Ukraine in NATO, and then accept them into NATO the day Russia finished withdrawing. I'd be OK with that. Why negotiate in good faith with someone who you know will go back on any promises made the moment they feel like it??

I mean what sort of precedent does it set for other authoritarian dictatorships. Go in, invade your neighbor do all the murdering and destruction you want. If it goes poorly then we go back to the status quo if you promise not to do it again.
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:37 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I understand the argument for doing that, I really do. It could end the war and save lives.... but at this point I'd be against negotiating in good faith. Sure, we could say we won't accept Ukraine in NATO, and then accept them into NATO the day Russia finished withdrawing. I'd be OK with that. Why negotiate in good faith with someone who you know will go back on any promises made the moment they feel like it??

I mean what sort of precedent does it set for other authoritarian dictatorships. Go in, invade your neighbor do all the murdering and destruction you want. If it goes poorly then we go back to the status quo if you promise not to do it again.
That precedent is not new and has been generally true for nuclear powers for some time now. Brinksmanship between nuclear armed countries strikes me as an exceedingly dangerous and deranged idea.
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:38 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That precedent is not new and has been generally true for nuclear powers for some time now.
Maybe its a good time to change it?
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:41 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Maybe its a good time to change it?
Yeah, I've seen enough. Pull the triggers and send us all to Jesus, it's been a good run.
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:42 AM   #369
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Jesus Christ can the nihilists all go off, form their own country, nuke themselves, and get it over with so the rest of us who think maybe, just maybe the world is still worth fighting for don't have to deal with them?
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:42 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's hard to imagine any scenario in which Putin is ever taken into custody for a war crimes trial.
Obviously, but it still should be called for.
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Old 4th April 2022, 11:51 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ can the nihilists all go off, form their own country, nuke themselves, and get it over with so the rest of us who think maybe, just maybe the world is still worth fighting for don't have to deal with them?
Was this directed at me?

You know, Russia borders several NATO countries (think there was a long discussion on how many exactly) several of which were in the USSR outright or part of their sphere of influence, but Putin chose to invade the one not in NATO. So maybe membership holds value as a deterrent. The west should isolate Russia and turn them into North Korea pt 2. If the people there won't rise up and overthrow their masters then they can suffer and the rest of the world can get on with their lives. There are plenty of ways to get past relying on Russian natural resources given a few years anyways.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:04 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So, its good that Biden said it, but its not productive?
Oof. That Rule of So.

It's a good sentiment to have. I'm not sure it's a good sentiment to be expressing right now.

Quote:
Genuinely confused, not sure what you want here?
What part of "everything that can be done to rescue Ukraine and Ukrainians" was genuinely confusing to you?

Quote:
How is Biden saying that counterproductive to doing everything we can to help Ukraine... I mean maybe putting emphasis on the war crimes/civilian slaughter/rape/kidnaping/human shield using puts a bit of pressure on Congress to release more aide? Maybe it gets more people on the side of its time for a no-fly-zone which I support 100% completely now. That's probably the only way the Ukrainian army can get into Mariupol before 100,000 people are murdered or marched off to Siberia.
Emphasizing the criminality of the act and the need to bring Putin to justice reinforces the lack of interest in giving him a way out of this that helps the Ukrainian people.

Biden wants to encourage Congress to do more than they're doing, he could emphasize the human tragedy of it.

I would love to see Putin brought to justice. But my priority right now is getting him and his murderers out of Ukraine. If an amnesty for his war crimes is his condition for returning to the early February lines, and repatriating the Ukrainians he's already transported, I would take that deal in a heartbeat. "We must make Putin pay!" takes a back seat to "we need to give Putin an incentive to withdraw!"

Somebody in Russia needs to be given a face-saving exit strategy. "Putin is a criminal who has to be held accountable for his crimes" doesn't seem like that thing.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:13 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oof. That Rule of So.

It's a good sentiment to have. I'm not sure it's a good sentiment to be expressing right now.


What part of "everything that can be done to rescue Ukraine and Ukrainians" was genuinely confusing to you?


Emphasizing the criminality of the act and the need to bring Putin to justice reinforces the lack of interest in giving him a way out of this that helps the Ukrainian people.

Biden wants to encourage Congress to do more than they're doing, he could emphasize the human tragedy of it.

I would love to see Putin brought to justice. But my priority right now is getting him and his murderers out of Ukraine. If an amnesty for his war crimes is his condition for returning to the early February lines, and repatriating the Ukrainians he's already transported, I would take that deal in a heartbeat. "We must make Putin pay!" takes a back seat to "we need to give Putin an incentive to withdraw!"

Somebody in Russia needs to be given a face-saving exit strategy. "Putin is a criminal who has to be held accountable for his crimes" doesn't seem like that thing.
I really don't see how it would matter to Putin if the West considers him a war criminal or not. Yeah giving him a face saving exit strategy that he could sell to his own people could be useful in ending the war. Everyone with half a brain
who pays attention knows he's a war criminal, and Biden is hardly the first leader to say it. Honestly it should be for the Ukrainian people to decide what terms they are willing to accept. If they, for example, decide to cede Donbas then that's their call.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:15 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I understand the argument for doing that, I really do. It could end the war and save lives.... but at this point I'd be against negotiating in good faith. Sure, we could say we won't accept Ukraine in NATO, and then accept them into NATO the day Russia finished withdrawing. I'd be OK with that. Why negotiate in good faith with someone who you know will go back on any promises made the moment they feel like it??

I mean what sort of precedent does it set for other authoritarian dictatorships. Go in, invade your neighbor do all the murdering and destruction you want. If it goes poorly then we go back to the status quo if you promise not to do it again.
I don't even give a **** about the promise to do it never again. Why is that even a thing that matters, in your mind?

What's important is the withdrawal. Once he withdraws, steps can be taken to deter and prevent him from doing it again, whether he promises or not, whether he intends to keep his promise or not.

So what incentives can we offer, to encourage him to withdraw? Permanent sanctions isn't it. Indefinite persecution for war crimes isn't it. Insistence on regime change in Russia isn't it.

tl;dr - What is your priority, lobosrul5? Making Putin pay? Or rescuing Ukraine?
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:18 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
tl;dr - What is your priority, lobosrul5? Making Putin pay? Or rescuing Ukraine?
I very much worry this is going to become the broader question should Ukraine and Russia start making progress towards a peace settlement.

It's easy to be high and mighty from afar and nobody you know is getting bombed into paste. Sticking it to Putin is pretty easy when it costs you very little, less so for Ukraine which pays for everything in blood.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:22 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Was this directed at me?

You know, Russia borders several NATO countries (think there was a long discussion on how many exactly) several of which were in the USSR outright or part of their sphere of influence, but Putin chose to invade the one not in NATO. So maybe membership holds value as a deterrent. The west should isolate Russia and turn them into North Korea pt 2. If the people there won't rise up and overthrow their masters then they can suffer and the rest of the world can get on with their lives. There are plenty of ways to get past relying on Russian natural resources given a few years anyways.
I'm not sure how having a nuclear armed failed state in central Asia is a good solution to this crisis. I'm about as pro-nuke hawk as it gets, but even this is beyond the pale for me.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:23 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't even give a **** about the promise to do it never again. Why is that even a thing that matters, in your mind?

What's important is the withdrawal. Once he withdraws, steps can be taken to deter and prevent him from doing it again, whether he promises or not, whether he intends to keep his promise or not.

So what incentives can we offer, to encourage him to withdraw? Permanent sanctions isn't it. Indefinite persecution for war crimes isn't it. Insistence on regime change in Russia isn't it.

tl;dr - What is your priority, lobosrul5? Making Putin pay? Or rescuing Ukraine?
Ending the war. Which is why I said, sure we can offer whatever the **** we think will get Putin to leave, then go back on our "word". Lets say there's a ceasefire and Russia keeps the territory they hold. Great the wars over no one is dying. Except the people in the conquered territory likely. We go back to how things were, Putin goes back to saber rattling and pockets trillions from the West buying Russian gas and oil. And they've now strengthened their position in Ukraine. And we agree no they won't be in NATO and we won't guarantee their independence. Then what, you think he won't try it again, knowing the consequences to him are absolutely squat. I guess we can hope he dies soon and the next guy is nicer?

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Old 4th April 2022, 12:24 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I very much worry this is going to become the broader question should Ukraine and Russia start making progress towards a peace settlement.

It's easy to be high and mighty from afar and nobody you know is getting bombed into paste. Sticking it to Putin is pretty easy when it costs you very little, less so for Ukraine which pays for everything in blood.
As I said, we should honor what Zelensky/The Ukranians want.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:24 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure how having a nuclear armed failed state in central Asia is a good solution to this crisis. I'm about as pro-nuke hawk as it gets, but even this is beyond the pale for me.
Theres already one in East Asia.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:27 PM   #380
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How many different and mutually inconsistent conspiracy theories will Russian propagandist come up with to explain away the bodies and eyewitnesses in Bucha?

We're the people killed by "radical Ukrainians" in a "provocation"? We're they just actors with make up? We're they Russians murdered by the fascist neo-nazi military junta? Was Britain behind this? We're the cadavers from the same source as those in the airliner that Ukraine shot down to blame innocent Russia?

So many questions...
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:29 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
we agree no they won't be in NATO and we won't guarantee their independence. Then what, ...
Turn Ukraine into an armed camp? No, they won't be in NATO, but without an actual shooting war going on, there's less risk to escalation. Sell them fighters, air defence assets, anti-ship missiles, etc. for cheap. Provide them civilian development, cash, or miliary gifts-in-kind. Ukraine can arm up with everything Western economies can provide. Russia will have to re-arm with whatever they can scrape together.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:31 PM   #382
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In every moral system the side you're giving all the volition to is the side you support, regardless of anything else.

"Russia gets to decide how this ends" is a Pro-Russia statement, no matter how many other words you bury that core conceit under.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:36 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I very much worry this is going to become the broader question should Ukraine and Russia start making progress towards a peace settlement.

It's easy to be high and mighty from afar and nobody you know is getting bombed into paste. Sticking it to Putin is pretty easy when it costs you very little, less so for Ukraine which pays for everything in blood.
The Ukrainians seem perfectly willing to fight and kill Russian soldiers no matter the costs. All they ask for is more weapons to kill them with, and maybe some more bodies to help with the killing.

If anything the bigger risk is that Biden or other western leaders tries to make them sue for peace rather than fighting on because "muh gas prices".
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:38 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The Ukrainians seem perfectly willing to fight and kill Russian soldiers no matter the costs. All they ask for is more weapons to kill them with, and maybe some more bodies to help with the killing.

If anything the bigger risk is that Biden or other western leaders tries make them sue for peace rather than fighting on because "muh gas prices".
There have been plenty of indicators that Ukraine is open to the idea of a peace settlement. There's a lot of room between unconditional surrender and marching into Moscow.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:44 PM   #385
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There are reports backed by video and pics, of a mass surrender in Mariupol. The Russians are claiming that 264 Ukrainian Naval Infantry surrendered.

It's probably true but there's still some uncertainty. In the video only one of the "surrendered" soldiers has a blue or yellow armband, and one has a red bit of cloth in one hand (or so others say, I can't see it but I'm colorblind), they're suggesting that these are just separatist soldiers marching and pretending to surrender to make it look as if Russia is winning there, and that the soldier with the bit of red in his hand is holding a red armband he might have pulled off just before they filmed.

A surrender seems plausible.
A fake surrender by separatists also seems plausible.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:47 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There have been plenty of indicators that Ukraine is open to the idea of a peace settlement. There's a lot of room between unconditional surrender and marching into Moscow.
You reward aggression. you get more aggression. Simple..too simple for some people.
I get a sick feelilng that some on the left seem half hearted in their condemnation of Putin because , deep down, they still hope he is a Communist at theart and will bring back eventually Marxism to Russia..but this time it will work......
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:49 PM   #387
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I think some people here. if they had been alive in 1941, would have called for peace negtiations with Japan on Dec 8th.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:50 PM   #388
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And I cannot see, no matter what happens in Ukraine, relatons with Russia going back to "normal" as long as Putin is in power.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:52 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There have been plenty of indicators that Ukraine is open to the idea of a peace settlement. There's a lot of room between unconditional surrender and marching into Moscow.
The Russians are going to try and conquer Eastern and South-Eastern Ukraine, something the Ukranians probably won't accept unless they manage to make it all look like Mariupol.

I mean the reason they are still fighting on in Mariupol is to make sure the Russians only "win" ruins at a terrible price.
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Old 4th April 2022, 12:53 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think some people here. if they had been alive in 1941, would have called for peace negtiations with Japan on Dec 8th.
And we didn't, and certainly shouldn't have, settled on a negotiated peace with Japan or Germany in 1945. We could've done so, and saved lives in the short run and then risked aggression by those countries at a later date and then doing it all over again. Not that this is the same situation precisely, not even I'm advocating for the 1st Armored Division to drive to Moscow.
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Old 4th April 2022, 01:50 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I really don't see how it would matter to Putin if the West considers him a war criminal or not. Yeah giving him a face saving exit strategy that he could sell to his own people could be useful in ending the war. Everyone with half a brain
who pays attention knows he's a war criminal, and Biden is hardly the first leader to say it. Honestly it should be for the Ukrainian people to decide what terms they are willing to accept. If they, for example, decide to cede Donbas then that's their call.
I think it matters to Putin if the west is signaling a hard-line approach to holding him accountable even if he agrees to withdraw from Ukraine. He doesn't care if we think he's a war criminal. He just cares if we're going to try to go all out to make him pay for his war crimes.
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Old 4th April 2022, 01:53 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
How many different and mutually inconsistent conspiracy theories will Russian propagandist come up with to explain away the bodies and eyewitnesses in Bucha?

We're the people killed by "radical Ukrainians" in a "provocation"? We're they just actors with make up? We're they Russians murdered by the fascist neo-nazi military junta? Was Britain behind this? We're the cadavers from the same source as those in the airliner that Ukraine shot down to blame innocent Russia?

So many questions...
That's a feature not a bug.

The idea being to put out so many so many competing narratives that low-information members of the target audience think it's unclear because there are so many competing narratives.

"There are 20 explanations and one is that the Russians committed genocide"

vs

"The Ukrainians said Russia committed genocide and the Russians said it was a lie"
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Old 4th April 2022, 01:55 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
And we didn't, and certainly shouldn't have, settled on a negotiated peace with Japan or Germany in 1945. We could've done so, and saved lives in the short run and then risked aggression by those countries at a later date and then doing it all over again. Not that this is the same situation precisely, not even I'm advocating for the 1st Armored Division to drive to Moscow.
This is so precisely *not* the same situation that there's almost no point in bringing it up, except as a clear contrast.

If we were in a position to completely overrun Russia, force regime change at gunpoint, put the entire country under martial law, and keep it there until they'd imbibed enough western liberal values to be trustworthy partners for peace and security in the world, I'd say yes, let's do that.

But we're not. So why even pretend that's an option?
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Old 4th April 2022, 01:56 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I cannot see, no matter what happens in Ukraine, relatons with Russia going back to "normal" as long as Putin is in power.
If the plan is to not renormalize relations with Russia, then what is Russia's incentive to withdraw from Ukraine, to stop the ethnic cleansing?
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Old 4th April 2022, 01:57 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's the priority here? Make a show of taking a hard line against Putin? Or doing whatever can be done to rescue Ukraine and Ukrainians? Because as agreeably laudable as I find Biden's sentiment, I don't really see how it's productive to emphasize it now.
Perhaps Biden is trying to influence people in countries like Israel that haven't taken an anti-Russia stance?
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Old 4th April 2022, 02:11 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It took her over a month to properly condemn it and in between she had been calling for Ukraine to just surrender. She was arguing with Sean Hannity about it and saying that the US and others should not be providing weapons to Ukraine as it would just prolong the war.

Now we have news stories of what the Russians were doing in Ukraine, like this one that is worth reading.

And please don’t start with the “well, if Ukraine had just surrendered quickly like Tulsi advocated then the Russian soldiers wouldn’t have got frustrated and had to have killed so many civilians….”

https://www.spiegel.de/international...6-68803276e473

Indeed. Russia has planned such ethnic clensing, like the Serbians in Bosnia.

Originally Posted by crescent View Post
A quote from from Feb. 27:



This was known and documented before the town was liberated.

March 5:



and this:








Quite a few links in the twitter thread that support each claim


The execution of the people whose corpses were found by some pallets at an industrial area - that was filmed on March 25 (the execution itself, not the discovery of the corpses). Video didn't get out earlier presumably because it was filmed by a resident who had no way to get the video out.



A person could go on and on with this. The events at Bucha were witnessed and documented at it happened, reported as it happened although the reporting was somewhat incomplete due to press lack of access to the area. Further documentation occurred as the press and Ukrainian officials gained access. Disgusting pro-Russian schills and conspiracy theorists who claim otherwise are full of **** and are generally amoral and repugnant.
Also this

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/w...ne-bodies.html

Quote:
Satellite images show bodies lay in Bucha for weeks, despite Russian claims.
Satellite images from March 11th show the bodies lying in the street.
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Old 4th April 2022, 02:15 PM   #397
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[Continuation] The Russian Invasion of Ukraine (3)

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If the plan is to not renormalize relations with Russia, then what is Russia's incentive to withdraw from Ukraine, to stop the ethnic cleansing?


It's called economic pain.

The cleansing will not stop as long as Putin is around.

Edited by xjx388:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12 breach
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Last edited by xjx388; 4th April 2022 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 4th April 2022, 02:16 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And regardless of whether NATO is ideological, and to what degree, I still think they probably shouldn't be. But that is entirely beside the point of this thread.
I see a benefit to having some political requirements--ensuring the alliance is made up of countries that can reliably coexist. The benefit of mutual protection comes at the requirement of running a relatively free country, which creates an incentive for prospective members to assure political freedoms in exchange for the security of the alliance. It also incentivizes long standing members to STAY politically free. I see that as a net positive for the world.

It doesn't have to be across the board political alignment with each other. But a few basics can help combine strength with freedom and that sounds like a fantastic idea to me.
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Old 4th April 2022, 02:16 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If the plan is to not renormalize relations with Russia, then what is Russia's incentive to withdraw from Ukraine, to stop the ethnic cleansing?
Probably something like a partial walk back of some of the tougher sanctions will happen*, like removal from SWIFT. For Putin he can save face by making whatever claims he wants, ie we eliminated the LGBTQ+ loving Nazi's in Donbass. It appears around 81%** of Russians are gullible idiots who believe anything he wants them to. He gets to survive and keep power. If this keeps on like it is the odds of the Army turning on him grow each day. Not sure if its true, but I've heard the reason they pulled back from Kyiv area is the Belarusians are actively sabotaging Russian supplies. My point with that last sentence is discord could spread to the Russian Army.

*Not saying I'm for it, but it will probably be the "carrot"
**according to polling, and that said what is going to happen when ordinary Russians start traveling to Ukraine again and see the massive destruction? Or will they not be allowed to?
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Old 4th April 2022, 02:16 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Perhaps Biden is trying to influence people in countries like Israel that haven't taken an anti-Russia stance?
I have been much more sympathic to Israel then most there, and find a lot of the Anti Zionist rhetoric to be stupid, but I am not cutting Israel any slack on this. Their behavior has been a disgrace.

And I think, frankly, the US should call in some favors over this. Israel owes jus quite a few favors, I think.
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