[Continuation] The Russian Invasion of Ukraine (3) - Page 6

Aridas · 2nd April 2022, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

What the Russian people need is a Greta with a VPN to show everyone the truth... outside of the Kremlin she would sit with sign saying "School strike for peace", and she would dispel the veil of lies that keep her people enthralled to Putins regime.

In reality the truth has been available for them for years but they just don't want to know the truth. They don't want to read how their country is a festering corrupt ulcer on the face of the Earth because their pride prevents it. Pride, patriotism and chuvanism keeps people from acknowledging reality because it hurts them emotionally. And if Russians are anything it's being proud, patriotic and chuvanistic.

Whenever the flaws of their society are made manifest it's easiest to strike outwards, to blame others for their troubles instead of coming to acceptance that their own passivity and indifference is to blame for their country's state.

You have a point. Personally, though, I tend to assign much more responsibility onto the deceivers who actively worked to create that situation than onto what have become the willingly misled after the long term efforts of the deceivers.

Aridas · 2nd April 2022, 10:15 AM

Umm...

Quote:

General Staff: Russia begins mobilizing troops in Moldova's occupied Transnistria.

Moscow is redeploying its troops in occupied Transnistria to demonstrate its readiness to attack Ukraine from the southwest and for potential provocations on the border, the General Staff said.

This seems more like an act of desperation - one that if acted upon would likely significantly weaken Russia's influence there.

theprestige · 2nd April 2022, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Umm...

This seems more like an act of desperation - one that if acted upon would likely significantly weaken Russia's influence there.

Ukraine could probably afford to just cede that border zone. Let the Russians noodle around the region for a few weeks, dodging javelins and drones, running out of gas and food, while Ukraine finishes off the main conflict around Kiev and Mariupol.

zorro99 · 2nd April 2022, 11:55 AM

Russian forces, intent on overwhelming Kyiv with tanks and artillery when the war started, retreated under fire across a broad front by Saturday, leaving behind them dead soldiers and burned vehicles, according to witnesses, Ukrainian officials, satellite images and military analysts.

The withdrawal suggested the possibility of a major turn in the six-week war — the failure, at least for now, of Russia’s initial attempt to seize Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital, and the end of its hopes for the quick subjugation of the nation. https://nyti.ms/3j04ipX

A major defeat for Russia

Oystein · 2nd April 2022, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

"If I join, I will already be good at it" is a definitely a reason

No.

BobTheCoward · 2nd April 2022, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Oystein

No.

if you say so. I won't argue further as that would probably be off topic.

dudalb · 2nd April 2022, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

To poke elsewhere...

If this is true, then China is accomplice to war crimes.
I think it's time...in fact, way past time..for people is drop the rose coleored glasses about China and see it for what it is:A brutal dictatorship that has expnasion on it's mind.

Aridas · 2nd April 2022, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Ukraine could probably afford to just cede that border zone. Let the Russians noodle around the region for a few weeks, dodging javelins and drones, running out of gas and food, while Ukraine finishes off the main conflict around Kiev and Mariupol.

I'm not sure that they would even need to cede the border zone, especially if they have unmoved defense troops in the area. It also seems, at first glance, like an interesting opportunity to work with Moldova to deal with a bunch of the Russians that have been giving them headaches. With that said, Moldova's currently denying the claim.

dudalb · 2nd April 2022, 12:44 PM

Reports that Russian soldiers appeared to indulged in rape quite a bit.I have no doubt this is true. Remember Germany in 1945. And , frankly, the Russian soldiers in 1945, though what they did is reprehensible, did have some extenuating circumstances that these Russian soldiers do not have.
What is more scary, is maybe .like in 1945, it is "unofficial" Russian Policy to intimidate the population.

Aridas · 2nd April 2022, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Reports that Russian soldiers appeared to indulged in rape quite a bit.I have no doubt this is true. Remember Germany in 1945. And , frankly, the Russian soldiers in 1945, though what they did is reprehensible, did have some extenuating circumstances that these Russian soldiers do not have.
What is more scary, is maybe .like in 1945, it is "unofficial" Russian Policy to intimidate the population.

When rape is being claimed to be a fairly common thing to happen in the Russian military, especially done to new conscripts, the reports of raping civilians become even less surprising.

dudalb · 2nd April 2022, 12:48 PM

Intersting that the T-72's the Ukrainians will get are better then the ones theRussian have.
They were requipped by the NATO members with Western Sighting and Targeting equipment far better then what the Russians have;

Armitage72 · 2nd April 2022, 01:26 PM

A search of this thread and the last one didn't turn this up.

Witnesses are reporting Russian tanks and other vehicles using Ukrainian children as human shields.

Quote:

Russia has been accused by Ukraine of using children as “human shields” while regrouping its forces, as the first horrifying witness accounts from the newly liberated town of Bucha, near Kyiv, emerge.

Quote:

Coaches of children were said to have been placed in front of tanks in the village of Novyi Bykiv, close to the encircled city of Chernihiv, 100 miles north of Kyiv.

Quote:

“Cases of using children as cover are recorded in Sumy, Kyiv, Chernihiv, Zaporizhzhia oblasts [regions],” said Lyudmila Denisova, Ukraine’s human rights ombudsman.

Colonel Oleksandr Motuzyanyk, spokesman for Ukraine’s ministry of defence, said the cases were being investigated by the country’s attorney general, but he was unable to provide further details. He said: “Enemies have been using Ukrainian children as a living shield when moving their convoys, moving their vehicles.

acbytesla · 2nd April 2022, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Nope try again.

I think I addressed it just fine. I use to work for a polling group. I never knew who I was conducting a poll with.

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Please do show evidence that Levada Centre polling is unreliable or shut up. Seriously.

I can't. I also can't prove that God, Big Foot or Leprechauns exist. I just think that polling in an authoritarian nation that has made making true statements illegal is problematic.

Originally Posted by Arcade22

No, some things have not changed.

Granted, I was being hyperbolic. That said, a lot has changed. Freedoms are being restricted.

zorro99 · 2nd April 2022, 01:53 PM

The Russians have given up on Kiev.

jimbob · 2nd April 2022, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by zorro99

The Russians have given up on Kiev.

For now

angrysoba · 2nd April 2022, 04:00 PM

As Bucha is liberated, Ukrainian forces are finding bodies of civilians littering the streets and a mass grave of 270 people. Many of the civilians have had their hands tied behind their backs.

Warning: there are some gruesome pictures in this link:

https://twitter.com/macaesbruno/stat...921129989?s=21

dudalb · 2nd April 2022, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by zorro99

The Russians have given up on Kiev.

With the "For Now" proviso, that means there is one way in which Putin is different then Hitler; At least Hitler managed to take Kiev.

dudalb · 2nd April 2022, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I think I addressed it just fine. I use to work for a polling group. I never knew who I was conducting a poll with.

I can't. I also can't prove that God, Big Foot or Leprechauns exist. I just think that polling in an authoritarian nation that has made making true statements illegal is problematic.

Granted, I was being hyperbolic. That said, a lot has changed. Freedoms are being restricted.

Freedoms in Russia are pretty much gone, period. Back to the "Good old days" of the Soviet Union.

Vixen · 2nd April 2022, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Tero

If the Ukraine thing drags on through the summer, the moment is lost. People will realize what a struggle Putin has and then realize he has no momentum to tackle Finland in the next 5-10 years. The economic recovery of Russia will take several years.

No matter how crap their army, logistics, strategy and weaponry, Russians will always outnumber Finns 30 to 1.

Vixen · 2nd April 2022, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

To poke at a different kind of news about tanks...

U.S. will work with allies to transfer Soviet-made tanks to Ukraine -NY Times

ETA - In much darker news, though,

Russians booby-trapping homes as they retreat, claims Zelenskiy

Ukraine’s president says the Russians are leaving mines as they withdraw; central cities hit by new missile strikes

It is a measure of the bitterness of Russia's defeat in not taking Kyiv. 'Tis e'er the way. The Soviets committed atrocities in North Karelia when pulling out of the Winter War and the Germans similarly scorch earthed Lapland committing terrible atrocities on small villages as it was forced to retreat from the USSR via Finland.

The shocking war crimes being revealed in Bucha in particular is an outrage but sadly, not a surprise.

Putin, a student of war, ought to have known this would happen and the buck stops with him and his generals as wanton war criminals.

acbytesla · 2nd April 2022, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Freedoms in Russia are pretty much gone, period. Back to the "Good old days" of the Soviet Union.

Them good old days.

Obviously, Ukraine has paid a heavy price but I wonder just how much this has costed Russia and the Russian people. What has it done to the Russian military? What has it done the Russian economy? All these companies that have pulled out?

What happens if hostilities end? Does that end sanctions?

lobosrul5 · 2nd April 2022, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Them good old days.

Obviously, Ukraine has paid a heavy price but I wonder just how much this has costed Russia and the Russian people. What has it done to the Russian military? What has it done the Russian economy? All these companies that have pulled out?

What happens if hostilities end? Does that end sanctions?

With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia.

eerok · 2nd April 2022, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia.

I know what you mean. I feel that the Russian power soap opera that's been playing out for my entire life needs to finally come to some conclusion, and of course a positive one without nukes.

I can't imagine a new normal on the same merely uneasy terms as before.

Aridas · 2nd April 2022, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by eerok

I know what you mean. I feel that the Russian power soap opera that's been playing out for my entire life needs to finally come to some conclusion, and of course a positive one without nukes.

I can't imagine a new normal on the same merely uneasy terms as before.

"Merely uneasy" meaning Russia actively working to cause, exacerbate, and fund chaos and corruption, as well as generally working to undermine democracy and human rights worldwide.

shemp · 2nd April 2022, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by zorro99

The Russians have given up on Kiev.

They're chicken.

eerok · 2nd April 2022, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

"Merely uneasy" meaning Russia actively working to cause, exacerbate, and fund chaos and corruption, as well as generally working to undermine democracy and human rights worldwide.

I know what it means, and I think it's time for the West to tolerate it less, or even not at all. A big failure for Russia in Ukraine might be the impetus to help make that happen. That's what I'm rooting for.

acbytesla · 2nd April 2022, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia.

I can't imagine that happening. But if the Republicans resume power it might.

Wildy · 2nd April 2022, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Umm...

This seems more like an act of desperation - one that if acted upon would likely significantly weaken Russia's influence there.

I originally thought that this might have been bureaucratic inertia where troops were being mobilised based on a timeline that doesn't apply any more, since they are well stationed to support a siege of Odessa. Or if what Lukashenko revealed (either un- or intentionally) as part of an invasion of Moldova.

Looking at the forces there, they only number about 1500-2000 men, and many of those are guarding an ammo depot near the border with Ukraine. At present I don't expect them to do anything.

zorro99 · 2nd April 2022, 06:49 PM

“Russia has lost the big war,” said Phillips O’Brien, professor of strategic studies at St. Andrews University in Scotland. “The big war is over”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-ukraine-east/

acbytesla · 2nd April 2022, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

They're chicken.

Rumor has it they are going after Odessa now.

shemp · 2nd April 2022, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Rumor has it they are going after Odessa now.

Chicken Odessa? Do you have a recipe?

Arcade22 · 2nd April 2022, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

You have a point. Personally, though, I tend to assign much more responsibility onto the deceivers who actively worked to create that situation than onto what have become the willingly misled after the long term efforts of the deceivers.

Of course Putin and other top officials share most of the blame. The point is that people should just stop being concerned about the Russian peoples opinion. They are the enemy, not some innocent hostages held captative by Putin's regime. Sanctions and trade embargoes are a tool against the Russian state and people. All of them. When the Russians call it "economic war" they are describing it perfectly accurately if somewhat hyperbolically.

Sanctions are not going to make them rise up against Putin nor are the extreme casualties the Russians have suffered going to make them embrace Zelenskiy or Biden. When you are (as the Russians perceive it) surrounded by enemies you circle-the-wagons and shoot outwards, not inwards. People don't like those who kill one of their own, no matter how justified they may have been (and of course the Russians think they are the "good guys" in all of this).

acbytesla · 2nd April 2022, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Of course Putin and other top officials share most of the blame. The point is that people should just stop being concerned about the Russian peoples opinion. They are the enemy, not some innocent hostages held captative by Putin's regime. Sanctions and trade embargoes are a tool against the Russian state and people. All of them. When the Russians call it "economic war" they are describing it perfectly accurately if somewhat hyperbolically.

Sanctions are not going to make them rise up against Putin nor are the extreme casualties the Russians have suffered going to make them embrace Zelenskiy or Biden. When you are (as the Russians perceive it) surrounded by enemies you circle-the-wagons and shoot outwards, not inwards. People don't like those who kill one of their own, no matter how justified they may have been (and of course the Russians think they are the "good guys" in all of this).

Maybe, maybe not. Russia is living inside a bubble. Or is it? The shelves at the stores are barren. This was not the case before the war that Russia started. Blaming the entire world for opposing them only works to a point.

Wildy · 2nd April 2022, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

Chicken Odessa? Do you have a recipe?

There you go.

crescent · 2nd April 2022, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Maybe, maybe not. Russia is living inside a bubble. Or is it? The shelves at the stores are barren. This was not the case before the war that Russia started. Blaming the entire world for opposing them only works to a point.

Sanctions never seem to effect regime change. I can't think of one example. Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, North Korea - all still there. We had sanctions against Iraq under Saddam, but it took military action to finally unseat him (and by that time the sanctions were doing more harm than good, being used by Saddam to gain sympathy and support). I guess maybe South Africa worked, but that was a pretty unique case with clear distinctions between the ruling minority and the rest of the population.

But - sanctions can clearly defang a nation's military. As Saddam found out.

theprestige · 2nd April 2022, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia.

Nobody wants a nuclear armed failed state in central Asia. Russia has done much worse over the years, and still been allowed to get back to business. I'm much more interested in peace and commerce than in revenge.

jimbob · 3rd April 2022, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

I know what it means, and I think it's time for the West to tolerate it less, or even not at all. A big failure for Russia in Ukraine might be the impetus to help make that happen. That's what I'm rooting for.

Putin's been waging an undeclared (and escalating) war against the West since at least 2008, and he'll keep escalating until he's stopped.

jimbob · 3rd April 2022, 12:54 AM

And we're only seeing the evidence of atrocities because Russian forces were driven out before they had time to try to sow doubt. ETA: and hide the evidence

Aridas · 3rd April 2022, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Putin's been waging an undeclared (and escalating) war against the West since at least 2008, and he'll keep escalating until he's stopped.

I wasn't aware that Russia's actually stopped since the Cold War, for that matter. The collapse of the Soviet Union meant that they weren't really able to do much for a while, of course, but that has much more to do with internal issues than it did with a fundamental change in course. The tactics have changed to some extent, direct to indirect, totalitarian with a facade of communism to corrupt capitalism (both of which have had rather dramatic effects on the Republican Party, among many others), but the hostility of their overall course has shown little sign of change.

gnome · 3rd April 2022, 01:14 AM

In retrospect, what do people think of the intentions of Gorbachev and Yeltsin? My impression is that Gorbachev was actually interested in steering the country towards modernization, more open and peaceful relations with other countries, and even democratization down the road... though pursuing the slow approach, trying to use his autocratic powers to maintain control during what he expected would be a long transition, and trying to keep "core" satellite states within the Russian/Soviet sphere. Eventually it slid out of his grasp and took a life of its own, for better or worse.

Yeltsin? I have no idea. I had a hope that he too wanted to build a relatively free country and found the chaos too difficult to manage. But then I recall that Putin was his chosen successor, and I don't see how he could have thought that would help. Does anyone have better insight?

2nd April 2022, 09:49 AM	#201
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,891	Originally Posted by Arcade22 What the Russian people need is a Greta with a VPN to show everyone the truth... outside of the Kremlin she would sit with sign saying "School strike for peace", and she would dispel the veil of lies that keep her people enthralled to Putins regime. In reality the truth has been available for them for years but they just don't want to know the truth. They don't want to read how their country is a festering corrupt ulcer on the face of the Earth because their pride prevents it. Pride, patriotism and chuvanism keeps people from acknowledging reality because it hurts them emotionally. And if Russians are anything it's being proud, patriotic and chuvanistic. Whenever the flaws of their society are made manifest it's easiest to strike outwards, to blame others for their troubles instead of coming to acceptance that their own passivity and indifference is to blame for their country's state. You have a point. Personally, though, I tend to assign much more responsibility onto the deceivers who actively worked to create that situation than onto what have become the willingly misled after the long term efforts of the deceivers.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

2nd April 2022, 10:15 AM	#202
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,891	Umm... Quote: General Staff: Russia begins mobilizing troops in Moldova's occupied Transnistria. Moscow is redeploying its troops in occupied Transnistria to demonstrate its readiness to attack Ukraine from the southwest and for potential provocations on the border, the General Staff said. This seems more like an act of desperation - one that if acted upon would likely significantly weaken Russia's influence there.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 2nd April 2022 at 10:16 AM.

2nd April 2022, 11:53 AM	#203
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,550	Originally Posted by Aridas Umm... This seems more like an act of desperation - one that if acted upon would likely significantly weaken Russia's influence there. Ukraine could probably afford to just cede that border zone. Let the Russians noodle around the region for a few weeks, dodging javelins and drones, running out of gas and food, while Ukraine finishes off the main conflict around Kiev and Mariupol.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

2nd April 2022, 11:55 AM	#204
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,191	Russian forces, intent on overwhelming Kyiv with tanks and artillery when the war started, retreated under fire across a broad front by Saturday, leaving behind them dead soldiers and burned vehicles, according to witnesses, Ukrainian officials, satellite images and military analysts. The withdrawal suggested the possibility of a major turn in the six-week war — the failure, at least for now, of Russia’s initial attempt to seize Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital, and the end of its hopes for the quick subjugation of the nation. https://nyti.ms/3j04ipX A major defeat for Russia
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,191	__________________ There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.

2nd April 2022, 12:16 PM	#205
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,714	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward "If I join, I will already be good at it" is a definitely a reason No.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

2nd April 2022, 12:17 PM	#206
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,140	Originally Posted by Oystein No. if you say so. I won't argue further as that would probably be off topic.

2nd April 2022, 12:39 PM	#207
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by Aridas To poke elsewhere... If this is true, then China is accomplice to war crimes. I think it's time...in fact, way past time..for people is drop the rose coleored glasses about China and see it for what it is:A brutal dictatorship that has expnasion on it's mind.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

2nd April 2022, 12:40 PM	#208
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,891	Originally Posted by theprestige Ukraine could probably afford to just cede that border zone. Let the Russians noodle around the region for a few weeks, dodging javelins and drones, running out of gas and food, while Ukraine finishes off the main conflict around Kiev and Mariupol. I'm not sure that they would even need to cede the border zone, especially if they have unmoved defense troops in the area. It also seems, at first glance, like an interesting opportunity to work with Moldova to deal with a bunch of the Russians that have been giving them headaches. With that said, Moldova's currently denying the claim.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 2nd April 2022 at 12:42 PM.

2nd April 2022, 12:44 PM	#209
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Reports that Russian soldiers appeared to indulged in rape quite a bit.I have no doubt this is true. Remember Germany in 1945. And , frankly, the Russian soldiers in 1945, though what they did is reprehensible, did have some extenuating circumstances that these Russian soldiers do not have. What is more scary, is maybe .like in 1945, it is "unofficial" Russian Policy to intimidate the population.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

2nd April 2022, 12:47 PM	#210
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,891	Originally Posted by dudalb Reports that Russian soldiers appeared to indulged in rape quite a bit.I have no doubt this is true. Remember Germany in 1945. And , frankly, the Russian soldiers in 1945, though what they did is reprehensible, did have some extenuating circumstances that these Russian soldiers do not have. What is more scary, is maybe .like in 1945, it is "unofficial" Russian Policy to intimidate the population. When rape is being claimed to be a fairly common thing to happen in the Russian military, especially done to new conscripts, the reports of raping civilians become even less surprising.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

2nd April 2022, 12:48 PM	#211
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Intersting that the T-72's the Ukrainians will get are better then the ones theRussian have. They were requipped by the NATO members with Western Sighting and Targeting equipment far better then what the Russians have;
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

2nd April 2022, 01:26 PM	#212
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 6,907	A search of this thread and the last one didn't turn this up. Witnesses are reporting Russian tanks and other vehicles using Ukrainian children as human shields. Quote: Russia has been accused by Ukraine of using children as “human shields” while regrouping its forces, as the first horrifying witness accounts from the newly liberated town of Bucha, near Kyiv, emerge. Quote: Coaches of children were said to have been placed in front of tanks in the village of Novyi Bykiv, close to the encircled city of Chernihiv, 100 miles north of Kyiv. Quote: “Cases of using children as cover are recorded in Sumy, Kyiv, Chernihiv, Zaporizhzhia oblasts [regions],” said Lyudmila Denisova, Ukraine’s human rights ombudsman. Colonel Oleksandr Motuzyanyk, spokesman for Ukraine’s ministry of defence, said the cases were being investigated by the country’s attorney general, but he was unable to provide further details. He said: “Enemies have been using Ukrainian children as a living shield when moving their convoys, moving their vehicles.

2nd April 2022, 01:46 PM	#213
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,270	Originally Posted by Arcade22 Nope try again. I think I addressed it just fine. I use to work for a polling group. I never knew who I was conducting a poll with. Originally Posted by Arcade22 Please do show evidence that Levada Centre polling is unreliable or shut up. Seriously. I can't. I also can't prove that God, Big Foot or Leprechauns exist. I just think that polling in an authoritarian nation that has made making true statements illegal is problematic. Originally Posted by Arcade22 No, some things have not changed. Granted, I was being hyperbolic. That said, a lot has changed. Freedoms are being restricted.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

2nd April 2022, 01:53 PM	#214
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,191	The Russians have given up on Kiev.
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,191	__________________ There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.

2nd April 2022, 02:27 PM	#215
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 25,564	Originally Posted by zorro99 The Russians have given up on Kiev. For now
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

2nd April 2022, 04:00 PM	#216
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,778	As Bucha is liberated, Ukrainian forces are finding bodies of civilians littering the streets and a mass grave of 270 people. Many of the civilians have had their hands tied behind their backs. Warning: there are some gruesome pictures in this link: https://twitter.com/macaesbruno/stat...921129989?s=21
	__________________ Слава Україні! **** Putin!

2nd April 2022, 04:01 PM	#217
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by zorro99 The Russians have given up on Kiev. With the "For Now" proviso, that means there is one way in which Putin is different then Hitler; At least Hitler managed to take Kiev.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

2nd April 2022, 04:02 PM	#218
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by acbytesla I think I addressed it just fine. I use to work for a polling group. I never knew who I was conducting a poll with. I can't. I also can't prove that God, Big Foot or Leprechauns exist. I just think that polling in an authoritarian nation that has made making true statements illegal is problematic. Granted, I was being hyperbolic. That said, a lot has changed. Freedoms are being restricted. Freedoms in Russia are pretty much gone, period. Back to the "Good old days" of the Soviet Union.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

2nd April 2022, 04:31 PM	#219
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,928	Originally Posted by Tero If the Ukraine thing drags on through the summer, the moment is lost. People will realize what a struggle Putin has and then realize he has no momentum to tackle Finland in the next 5-10 years. The economic recovery of Russia will take several years. No matter how crap their army, logistics, strategy and weaponry, Russians will always outnumber Finns 30 to 1.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend Last edited by Vixen; 2nd April 2022 at 04:46 PM.

2nd April 2022, 04:36 PM	#220
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,928	Originally Posted by Aridas To poke at a different kind of news about tanks... U.S. will work with allies to transfer Soviet-made tanks to Ukraine -NY Times ETA - In much darker news, though, Russians booby-trapping homes as they retreat, claims Zelenskiy Ukraine’s president says the Russians are leaving mines as they withdraw; central cities hit by new missile strikes It is a measure of the bitterness of Russia's defeat in not taking Kyiv. 'Tis e'er the way. The Soviets committed atrocities in North Karelia when pulling out of the Winter War and the Germans similarly scorch earthed Lapland committing terrible atrocities on small villages as it was forced to retreat from the USSR via Finland. The shocking war crimes being revealed in Bucha in particular is an outrage but sadly, not a surprise. Putin, a student of war, ought to have known this would happen and the buck stops with him and his generals as wanton war criminals.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

2nd April 2022, 05:18 PM	#221
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,270	Originally Posted by dudalb Freedoms in Russia are pretty much gone, period. Back to the "Good old days" of the Soviet Union. Them good old days. Obviously, Ukraine has paid a heavy price but I wonder just how much this has costed Russia and the Russian people. What has it done to the Russian military? What has it done the Russian economy? All these companies that have pulled out? What happens if hostilities end? Does that end sanctions?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

2nd April 2022, 05:24 PM	#222
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,964	Originally Posted by acbytesla Them good old days. Obviously, Ukraine has paid a heavy price but I wonder just how much this has costed Russia and the Russian people. What has it done to the Russian military? What has it done the Russian economy? All these companies that have pulled out? What happens if hostilities end? Does that end sanctions? With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia.
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,964

2nd April 2022, 05:37 PM	#223
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 4,907	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia. I know what you mean. I feel that the Russian power soap opera that's been playing out for my entire life needs to finally come to some conclusion, and of course a positive one without nukes. I can't imagine a new normal on the same merely uneasy terms as before.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

2nd April 2022, 05:42 PM	#224
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,891	Originally Posted by eerok I know what you mean. I feel that the Russian power soap opera that's been playing out for my entire life needs to finally come to some conclusion, and of course a positive one without nukes. I can't imagine a new normal on the same merely uneasy terms as before. "Merely uneasy" meaning Russia actively working to cause, exacerbate, and fund chaos and corruption, as well as generally working to undermine democracy and human rights worldwide.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

2nd April 2022, 05:52 PM	#225
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 47,684	Originally Posted by zorro99 The Russians have given up on Kiev. They're chicken.
	__________________ Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens. No Klingon would put up with the GOP's ********. When you least expect it... EXPECT IT!

2nd April 2022, 05:53 PM	#226
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 4,907	Originally Posted by Aridas "Merely uneasy" meaning Russia actively working to cause, exacerbate, and fund chaos and corruption, as well as generally working to undermine democracy and human rights worldwide. I know what it means, and I think it's time for the West to tolerate it less, or even not at all. A big failure for Russia in Ukraine might be the impetus to help make that happen. That's what I'm rooting for.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

2nd April 2022, 05:56 PM	#227
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,270	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia. I can't imagine that happening. But if the Republicans resume power it might.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

2nd April 2022, 06:23 PM	#228
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,320	Originally Posted by Aridas Umm... This seems more like an act of desperation - one that if acted upon would likely significantly weaken Russia's influence there. I originally thought that this might have been bureaucratic inertia where troops were being mobilised based on a timeline that doesn't apply any more, since they are well stationed to support a siege of Odessa. Or if what Lukashenko revealed (either un- or intentionally) as part of an invasion of Moldova. Looking at the forces there, they only number about 1500-2000 men, and many of those are guarding an ammo depot near the border with Ukraine. At present I don't expect them to do anything.
	__________________

2nd April 2022, 06:49 PM	#229
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,191	“Russia has lost the big war,” said Phillips O’Brien, professor of strategic studies at St. Andrews University in Scotland. “The big war is over” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-ukraine-east/
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,191	__________________ There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.

2nd April 2022, 07:02 PM	#230
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,270	Originally Posted by shemp They're chicken. Rumor has it they are going after Odessa now.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

2nd April 2022, 07:23 PM	#231
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 47,684	Originally Posted by acbytesla Rumor has it they are going after Odessa now. Chicken Odessa? Do you have a recipe?
	__________________ Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens. No Klingon would put up with the GOP's ********. When you least expect it... EXPECT IT!

2nd April 2022, 07:41 PM	#232
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,435	Originally Posted by Aridas You have a point. Personally, though, I tend to assign much more responsibility onto the deceivers who actively worked to create that situation than onto what have become the willingly misled after the long term efforts of the deceivers. Of course Putin and other top officials share most of the blame. The point is that people should just stop being concerned about the Russian peoples opinion. They are the enemy, not some innocent hostages held captative by Putin's regime. Sanctions and trade embargoes are a tool against the Russian state and people. All of them. When the Russians call it "economic war" they are describing it perfectly accurately if somewhat hyperbolically. Sanctions are not going to make them rise up against Putin nor are the extreme casualties the Russians have suffered going to make them embrace Zelenskiy or Biden. When you are (as the Russians perceive it) surrounded by enemies you circle-the-wagons and shoot outwards, not inwards. People don't like those who kill one of their own, no matter how justified they may have been (and of course the Russians think they are the "good guys" in all of this).
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann Last edited by Arcade22; 2nd April 2022 at 07:42 PM.

2nd April 2022, 08:38 PM	#233
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,270	Originally Posted by Arcade22 Of course Putin and other top officials share most of the blame. The point is that people should just stop being concerned about the Russian peoples opinion. They are the enemy, not some innocent hostages held captative by Putin's regime. Sanctions and trade embargoes are a tool against the Russian state and people. All of them. When the Russians call it "economic war" they are describing it perfectly accurately if somewhat hyperbolically. Sanctions are not going to make them rise up against Putin nor are the extreme casualties the Russians have suffered going to make them embrace Zelenskiy or Biden. When you are (as the Russians perceive it) surrounded by enemies you circle-the-wagons and shoot outwards, not inwards. People don't like those who kill one of their own, no matter how justified they may have been (and of course the Russians think they are the "good guys" in all of this). Maybe, maybe not. Russia is living inside a bubble. Or is it? The shelves at the stores are barren. This was not the case before the war that Russia started. Blaming the entire world for opposing them only works to a point.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

2nd April 2022, 08:44 PM	#234
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,320	Originally Posted by shemp Chicken Odessa? Do you have a recipe? There you go.
	__________________

2nd April 2022, 09:05 PM	#235
crescent Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,809	Originally Posted by acbytesla Maybe, maybe not. Russia is living inside a bubble. Or is it? The shelves at the stores are barren. This was not the case before the war that Russia started. Blaming the entire world for opposing them only works to a point. Sanctions never seem to effect regime change. I can't think of one example. Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, North Korea - all still there. We had sanctions against Iraq under Saddam, but it took military action to finally unseat him (and by that time the sanctions were doing more harm than good, being used by Saddam to gain sympathy and support). I guess maybe South Africa worked, but that was a pretty unique case with clear distinctions between the ruling minority and the rest of the population. But - sanctions can clearly defang a nation's military. As Saddam found out.