[Continuation] The Russian Invasion of Ukraine (3) - Page 7

angrysoba · 3rd April 2022, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

In retrospect, what do people think of the intentions of Gorbachev and Yeltsin? My impression is that Gorbachev was actually interested in steering the country towards modernization, more open and peaceful relations with other countries, and even democratization down the road... though pursuing the slow approach, trying to use his autocratic powers to maintain control during what he expected would be a long transition, and trying to keep "core" satellite states within the Russian/Soviet sphere. Eventually it slid out of his grasp and took a life of its own, for better or worse.

Yeltsin? I have no idea. I had a hope that he too wanted to build a relatively free country and found the chaos too difficult to manage. But then I recall that Putin was his chosen successor, and I don't see how he could have thought that would help. Does anyone have better insight?

I haven't really looked into him that closely but it might be that he himself was a pretty chaotic individual who was drunk most of the time. It wouldn't be a contradiction to say he wanted a free and open country, but was also corrupt and relied on corrupt individuals and lackeys to whom he sold off much of the national wealth, who may also have wanted to keep Russia as an empire and thus started a war in Chechnya, and had contradictory feelings about Eastern European countries who were quick to flock to the west and escape Russia's orbit.

He's probably not the person you would choose if you wanted to a careful, rational person to steer Russia into the light.

Vixen · 3rd April 2022, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

In retrospect, what do people think of the intentions of Gorbachev and Yeltsin? My impression is that Gorbachev was actually interested in steering the country towards modernization, more open and peaceful relations with other countries, and even democratization down the road... though pursuing the slow approach, trying to use his autocratic powers to maintain control during what he expected would be a long transition, and trying to keep "core" satellite states within the Russian/Soviet sphere. Eventually it slid out of his grasp and took a life of its own, for better or worse.

Yeltsin? I have no idea. I had a hope that he too wanted to build a relatively free country and found the chaos too difficult to manage. But then I recall that Putin was his chosen successor, and I don't see how he could have thought that would help. Does anyone have better insight?

'Gorbachov' and 'Yeltsin' to me are merely shorthand for the regimes and policies they ran. I am not really into the cult of the personality. When Putin was Mayor of St Petersburg, he came to Finland a lot as his city was twinned with harbour city Turku. His metal commemorative plate was even added to the pavement of the Turku maritime museum. (Now removed.) People who knew him back then, all say he was a regular, normal guy, albeit, I dare say, seething at having to drive a taxi as an elite intelligence officer after the Berlin Wall came down.

The rot started when all of the nationalised industries under the old communist collective regime were sold off corruptly to individuals - the oligarchs - who then sold the proceeds back to the government, trousering fabulous sums of money in profit (cf Abramovich) and which of course Putin took a cut. Russia is utterly riddled with corruption. As Lord Acton famously said, 'Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

That is what Putin has. He is surrounded by the siloviki, all equally corrupt as himself. (This is why I am not sure why Zelenskyy wants Abramovich as a negotiator.) Where there's brass there's muck. ~ Yorkshire adage.

As a measure of this, one need only to look how successfully and completely the Russian oligarchs have infiltrated western democratic governments in buying up 'golden visas' - paying literally millions to buy citizenship - and then acquire property, and their aim, to gain influence by donating heavily into the ruling party coffers. Many saw the dangers coming, including the UK's own intelligence agencies, who were ignored because of the lucrative sums involved for the beneficiaries. The age old downfall of greed and avarice. We in the west need to look at ourselves closely in the mirror. Why did we not oppose the occupation of Crimea more strongly? Why did we let Trump have a private audience with Putin in Helsinki? Why did we let a Russian KGB asset into the House of Lords? How did we convince ourselves it was 'russophobia' to be hostile and suspicious of these opportunists?

gnome · 3rd April 2022, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I haven't really looked into him that closely but it might be that he himself was a pretty chaotic individual who was drunk most of the time. It wouldn't be a contradiction to say he wanted a free and open country, but was also corrupt and relied on corrupt individuals and lackeys to whom he sold off much of the national wealth, who may also have wanted to keep Russia as an empire and thus started a war in Chechnya, and had contradictory feelings about Eastern European countries who were quick to flock to the west and escape Russia's orbit.

He's probably not the person you would choose if you wanted to a careful, rational person to steer Russia into the light.

Probably not. At the time it seems he was the one that could successfully prevail against the reactionaries that probably wanted Brezhnev 2.0.

Aridas · 3rd April 2022, 01:59 AM

I can't opine directly about them, but... I think that it was probably pretty obvious by Gorbachev's time that Russia was falling behind in a bunch of ways and that something fundamental had to change if they didn't want the situation to become completely irreversible, and there was only one really obvious path to doing so. That he was actually able to acknowledge such speaks well in his favor, at least.

Yeltsin? Yeltsin was a KGB leader, was he not? I think that that alone speaks enough to his nature.

The Atheist · 3rd April 2022, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

In retrospect, what do people think of the intentions of Gorbachev and Yeltsin? My impression is that Gorbachev was actually interested in steering the country towards modernization, more open and peaceful relations with other countries, and even democratization down the road... though pursuing the slow approach, trying to use his autocratic powers to maintain control during what he expected would be a long transition, and trying to keep "core" satellite states within the Russian/Soviet sphere. Eventually it slid out of his grasp and took a life of its own, for better or worse.

I think that's right on the money. Gorbachev was a good guy but out of his depth due to the excesses of the Stalinists before him.

Originally Posted by gnome

Yeltsin?

Drunken bum in the right place at the right time.

Samson · 3rd April 2022, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

'Gorbachov' and 'Yeltsin' to me are merely shorthand for the regimes and policies they ran. I am not really into the cult of the personality. When Putin was Mayor of St Petersburg, he came to Finland a lot as his city was twinned with harbour city Turku. His metal commemorative plate was even added to the pavement of the Turku maritime museum. (Now removed.) People who knew him back then, all say he was a regular, normal guy, albeit, I dare say, seething at having to drive a taxi as an elite intelligence officer after the Berlin Wall came down.

The rot started when all of the nationalised industries under the old communist collective regime were sold off corruptly to individuals - the oligarchs - who then sold the proceeds back to the government, trousering fabulous sums of money in profit (cf Abramovich) and which of course Putin took a cut. Russia is utterly riddled with corruption. As Lord Acton famously said, 'Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

That is what Putin has. He is surrounded by the siloviki, all equally corrupt as himself. (This is why I am not sure why Zelenskyy wants Abramovich as a negotiator.) Where there's brass there's muck. ~ Yorkshire adage.

As a measure of this, one need only to look how successfully and completely the Russian oligarchs have infiltrated western democratic governments in buying up 'golden visas' - paying literally millions to buy citizenship - and then acquire property, and their aim, to gain influence by donating heavily into the ruling party coffers. Many saw the dangers coming, including the UK's own intelligence agencies, who were ignored because of the lucrative sums involved for the beneficiaries. The age old downfall of greed and avarice. We in the west need to look at ourselves closely in the mirror. Why did we not oppose the occupation of Crimea more strongly? Why did we let Trump have a private audience with Putin in Helsinki? Why did we let a Russian KGB asset into the House of Lords? How did we convince ourselves it was 'russophobia' to be hostile and suspicious of these opportunists?

And how could Abramov buy Chelsea with stolen money.

erlando · 3rd April 2022, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

ETA - In much darker news, though,

Russians booby-trapping homes as they retreat, claims Zelenskiy

Ukraine’s president says the Russians are leaving mines as they withdraw; central cities hit by new missile strikes

When you've already started war-criming you might as well continue.

jimbob · 3rd April 2022, 03:54 AM

I wonder how the "denazification" is going - maybe it should start in the Kremlin?

https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1509171559386255360

I cannot attest to the videos in the tweet above this, but the photos in this one are well-attested.

erlando · 3rd April 2022, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia.

With support for the war on a sharp rise in Russia and the war crimes of the Russian aggression now being revealed I've stopped caring about the population. Russia needs to be completely isolated from the international society for a very, very, very long time to come. They cannot be allowed to rebuild.

The Don · 3rd April 2022, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

And how could Abramov buy Chelsea with stolen money.

I'm sure that the fact that London is the money laundering capital of the World is purely coincidental.

jimbob · 3rd April 2022, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

When you've already started war-criming you might as well continue.

See also the war crimes in Mali*. Again by the Wagner group, which is very close to the Russian state.

*or Syria.

Or Chechnya

Aber · 3rd April 2022, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

Yeltsin? I have no idea. I had a hope that he too wanted to build a relatively free country and found the chaos too difficult to manage. But then I recall that Putin was his chosen successor, and I don't see how he could have thought that would help. Does anyone have better insight?

No one could have coped with the chaos in the 1990s.

Putin in 1999 was a safe pair of hands (who would not come after Yeltsin and his family) and re-establish a functioning state where the oligarchs influence would be reduced. Early 2000s he was having to publicly negotiate with the oligarchs and there was some sort of balance of power.

The problem came when Putin did not retire after completing his constitutional 2 terms in charge and started re-writing the rules so that he remained in power (effectively a soft coup) and preventing normal politics from developing.

Michel H · 3rd April 2022, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Yeltsin? Yeltsin was a KGB leader, was he not? I think that that alone speaks enough to his nature.

No, not Yeltsin.

It is Putin (the current leader!) who used to be a KGB officer.

Manger Douse · 3rd April 2022, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

It is likely that the Russian population is not well informed about events in Ukraine. It is sad (but perhaps revealing) that the European Union is resorting to the same kind of censorship tactics by banning RT (formerly Russia Today).

It's only their licence to broadcast that has been revoked. You can still get your fresh Kremlin turds on RT.com

Michel H · 3rd April 2022, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

It's only their licence to broadcast that has been revoked. You can still get your fresh Kremlin turds on RT.com

No, their website is banned also in the European Union (if you don't have a VPN). Ursula von der Leyen said on Twitter:

Quote:

Second, we will ban the Kremlin’s media machine in the EU.

The state-owned Russia Today and Sputnik, and their subsidiaries,
will no longer be able to spread their lies to justify Putin’s war.

We are developing tools to ban their toxic and harmful disinformation in Europe.

(https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/stat...73706831929348).

I think that the journalists of RT.com are generally doing a good job, sometimes displaying remarkable neutrality. This is perhaps related to the fact that their audience is mostly international, and they want to achieve credibility with this audience.

Manger Douse · 3rd April 2022, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

No, their website is banned also in the European Union (if you don't have a VPN).

*EU will urgently suspend the ***broadcasting*** activities of Sputnik’ and RT/Russia Today"

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...ing-in-the-eu/

Aridas · 3rd April 2022, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

No, not Yeltsin.

It is Putin (the current leader!) who used to be a KGB officer.

Putin certainly was. I've been used to hearing about Yeltsin primarily by means of his association with Putin, though, so it seems that I formed a mistaken impression. Thank you for the correction about Yeltsin actually being KGB.

timhau · 3rd April 2022, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Yeltsin? Yeltsin was a KGB leader, was he not? I think that that alone speaks enough to his nature.

No, he was a career politician. He probably was as much of a maverick as you could be and still advance in the Soviet Communist Party. He was, I believe, the first ever to resign from the politburo (a couple of years before the collapse of the USSR).

Cosmic Yak · 3rd April 2022, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I think that the journalists of RT.com are generally doing a good job, sometimes displaying remarkable neutrality. This is perhaps related to the fact that their audience is mostly international, and they want to achieve credibility with this audience.

Quote:

Overall, we rate RT Questionable based on promoting pro-Russian propaganda, conspiracy theories, numerous failed fact checks, and a lack of author transparency.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rt-news/

Your blind support of state-sponsored propaganda does you no credit.

angrysoba · 3rd April 2022, 07:38 AM

Even more grisly scenes in Bucha.

Apartment found with men who had apparently been executed and another room that had been used for torture.

https://twitter.com/revishvilig/stat...193938949?s=21

erlando · 3rd April 2022, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

No, their website is banned also in the European Union (if you don't have a VPN). Ursula von der Leyen said on Twitter

That's funny. I have no problems accessing rt dot com right now.

erlando · 3rd April 2022, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Even more grisly scenes in Bucha.

Apartment found with men who had apparently been executed and another room that had been used for torture.

https://twitter.com/revishvilig/stat...193938949?s=21

Russian propaganda claiming Ukrainians did this in 3... 2... 1...

The Don · 3rd April 2022, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

Russian propaganda claiming Ukrainians did this in 3... 2... 1...

They already did, several hours ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Oystein · 3rd April 2022, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by shemp

Chicken Odessa? Do you have a recipe?

True story: Years ago, while chatting with my best friend about imaginary travels that happened to take us to Kyiv in winter, I imagined "chicken Kyiv" to be a whole, frozen chicken, naked, unseasoned, put *plonk* on a bare white thick plate by a grumpy, stocky lady with rubber gloves.

That was before I traveled to Kyiv for real and found it to be a warm and welcoming place (albeit with culinary opportunities of mixed attractiveness).

angrysoba · 3rd April 2022, 08:25 AM

Yeah, I expect there will be plenty of idiots who buy into Russian claims as well such as Michael Tracey who won’t quite say it was faked but who is nevertheless suggesting it is Ukrainian propaganda.

One person I expected to take that line but hasn’t is Tulsi Ganbard who seems to be desperately trying to pivot after all her blame of the Ukrainians and the west for the invasion. Now suddenly she is against it. Looks to me like she is just going to end up pissing everyone off. She already dispatched with normal decent people to embrace the Russian propaganda and now she is being slated by her deplorable audience for turning on Putin. Sucks to suck.

https://twitter.com/tulsigabbard/sta...994130433?s=21

Oystein · 3rd April 2022, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Aber

No one could have coped with the chaos in the 1990s.

Putin in 1999 was a safe pair of hands (who would not come after Yeltsin and his family) and re-establish a functioning state where the oligarchs influence would be reduced. Early 2000s he was having to publicly negotiate with the oligarchs and there was some sort of balance of power.

The problem came when Putin did not retire after completing his constitutional 2 terms in charge and started re-writing the rules so that he remained in power (effectively a soft coup) and preventing normal politics from developing.

Putin came to power on the popularity of his brutal conduct of the Chechen war (plus the ominous apartment block bombings - Russia's 9/11) - remember he was just one of a series of prime ministers under Yeltsin, but the one with the least scruples. He was the chief oligarch's (Berezovsky's) personal pick.

His very first action as president was to guarantee Yeltsin he would never be prosecuted for robbing Russia and giving it to the oligarchs.
The price for this of course was allowing Putin to become robber czar and the biggest of the oligarchs. Putin had the bad manners of chopping off his protégé Berezovsky, which made a point about who was calling the shots now. This meant that the oligarch system was to be retained, but with the new guy deciding who would be allowed to be one.
The oligarchs were never a homogeneous group, pulling in a coordinated way on their end of the rope. Of course they would be fighting each other at every opportunity. Divide & Conquer was Putin's game.

Oystein · 3rd April 2022, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

It is likely that the Russian population is not well informed about events in Ukraine.

This is putting it weirdly. A bit like saying "it's likely that the cloudless day time sky in Russia is blue, too".

Originally Posted by Michel H

It is sad (but perhaps revealing) that the European Union is resorting to the same kind of censorship tactics by banning RT (formerly Russia Today).

Which "information" are we missing out on now that RT is off the cables? Are you saying journalists are not free to report from Russia because of what the EU does? It appears to me that it is actually Russia that operates with heavy-handed threats (like 15 years of imprisonments) against anyone wishing to report about actual, true information from Russia. Haven't you noticed?

Trebuchet · 3rd April 2022, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Reports that Russian soldiers appeared to indulged in rape quite a bit.I have no doubt this is true. Remember Germany in 1945. And , frankly, the Russian soldiers in 1945, though what they did is reprehensible, did have some extenuating circumstances that these Russian soldiers do not have.
What is more scary, is maybe .like in 1945, it is "unofficial" Russian Policy to intimidate the population.

Originally Posted by Aridas

When rape is being claimed to be a fairly common thing to happen in the Russian military, especially done to new conscripts, the reports of raping civilians become even less surprising.

Rape of civilians by soldiers in every army has been usual for millenia. Some worse than others, of course, but still universal.

trustbutverify · 3rd April 2022, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

It is likely that the Russian population is not well informed about events in Ukraine. It is sad (but perhaps revealing) that the European Union is resorting to the same kind of censorship tactics by banning RT (formerly Russia Today).

Putin-Today is Kremlin propaganda with a wafer thin veneer of respectability. The EU is under no obligation to provide a platform for an enemies propaganda.

dudalb · 3rd April 2022, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Rape of civilians by soldiers in every army has been usual for millenia. Some worse than others, of course, but still universal.

This is whataboutism. Let us just say that The Russian Army's is much much worse then most.

dudalb · 3rd April 2022, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Putin-Today is Kremlin propaganda with a wafer thin veneer of respectability. The EU is under no obligation to provide a platform for an enemies propaganda.

Russia has reverted to the USSR with all indpendent media crushed.

dudalb · 3rd April 2022, 12:02 PM

Mass grave found outside of Kiev with at least 300 bodies in it.
Babi Yar 2.........

The Don · 3rd April 2022, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Mass grave found outside of Kiev with at least 300 bodies in it.
Babi Yar 2.........

Doubtless they all committed suicide in drug-fuelled shame over their Naziism.

Aridas · 3rd April 2022, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

This is whataboutism. Let us just say that The Russian Army's is much much worse then most.

In the present day, at least. With that said, comparing the present day situation where we have codified rules for war and acceptable conduct in that way when it comes to such behavior during the millennia that we didn't is fundamentally off base.

dudalb · 3rd April 2022, 01:08 PM

The Rape of Nanking also comes to mind.

Arcade22 · 3rd April 2022, 01:15 PM

Quote:

A suburban avenue in Bucha became one of the first graveyards for Russia's hopes of encircling and entering Kyiv and then deposing the government of President Volodymyr Zelensky.

The moment came two or three days after the first Russian forces crossed into Ukraine on 24 February, when Ukrainian forces destroyed a column of Russian tanks and armoured personnel carriers moving through the town of Bucha to the city of Kyiv.

The convoy was destroyed in one of the first of many Ukrainian ambushes that stopped the Russian advance dead.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60970818

For anyone that's unreasonably suspicious of the extreme losses the Russians have suffered, the rusting burned out husks of tanks and other armored vehicles ought to dispel any doubts.

Michel H · 3rd April 2022, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by erlando

That's funny. I have no problems accessing rt dot com right now.

But you don't say where you are.

Manger Douse · 3rd April 2022, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

But you don't say where you are.

In the EU - the same as you

"the EU will urgently suspend the ***broadcasting*** activities of Sputnik’ and RT/Russia Today"

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...ing-in-the-eu/

Michel H · 3rd April 2022, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Yeah, I expect there will be plenty of idiots who buy into Russian claims as well such as Michael Tracey who won’t quite say it was faked but who is nevertheless suggesting it is Ukrainian propaganda.

One person I expected to take that line but hasn’t is Tulsi Ganbard who seems to be desperately trying to pivot after all her blame of the Ukrainians and the west for the invasion. Now suddenly she is against it. Looks to me like she is just going to end up pissing everyone off. She already dispatched with normal decent people to embrace the Russian propaganda and now she is being slated by her deplorable audience for turning on Putin. Sucks to suck.

https://twitter.com/tulsigabbard/sta...994130433?s=21

Tulsi Gabbard said, in the tweet you mention:

Quote:

President Putin, not only is your brutal attack on Ukraine reprehensible, it has been a huge geopolitical error which has already cost Russia dearly. Those costs will get higher every day you remain in Ukraine. So it is in the best interest of the Russian people and the people of Ukraine, that you pull your forces out now.

Isn't this completely flawless? What's the point of criticizing so much a person who seems reasonable?

Michel H · 3rd April 2022, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

In the EU - the same as you

"the EU will urgently suspend the ***broadcasting*** activities of Sputnik’ and RT/Russia Today"

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...ing-in-the-eu/

You are not erlando, Manger Douse, so you can't answer for him (or her).

You can broadcast through the Internet too.

When I try to access RT.com (without a VPN) from Belgium, I see the message:

Quote:

ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED

3rd April 2022, 01:28 AM	#241
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,788	Originally Posted by gnome In retrospect, what do people think of the intentions of Gorbachev and Yeltsin? My impression is that Gorbachev was actually interested in steering the country towards modernization, more open and peaceful relations with other countries, and even democratization down the road... though pursuing the slow approach, trying to use his autocratic powers to maintain control during what he expected would be a long transition, and trying to keep "core" satellite states within the Russian/Soviet sphere. Eventually it slid out of his grasp and took a life of its own, for better or worse. Yeltsin? I have no idea. I had a hope that he too wanted to build a relatively free country and found the chaos too difficult to manage. But then I recall that Putin was his chosen successor, and I don't see how he could have thought that would help. Does anyone have better insight? I haven't really looked into him that closely but it might be that he himself was a pretty chaotic individual who was drunk most of the time. It wouldn't be a contradiction to say he wanted a free and open country, but was also corrupt and relied on corrupt individuals and lackeys to whom he sold off much of the national wealth, who may also have wanted to keep Russia as an empire and thus started a war in Chechnya, and had contradictory feelings about Eastern European countries who were quick to flock to the west and escape Russia's orbit. He's probably not the person you would choose if you wanted to a careful, rational person to steer Russia into the light.
	__________________ Слава Україні! **** Putin!

3rd April 2022, 01:43 AM	#242
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 28,937	Originally Posted by gnome In retrospect, what do people think of the intentions of Gorbachev and Yeltsin? My impression is that Gorbachev was actually interested in steering the country towards modernization, more open and peaceful relations with other countries, and even democratization down the road... though pursuing the slow approach, trying to use his autocratic powers to maintain control during what he expected would be a long transition, and trying to keep "core" satellite states within the Russian/Soviet sphere. Eventually it slid out of his grasp and took a life of its own, for better or worse. Yeltsin? I have no idea. I had a hope that he too wanted to build a relatively free country and found the chaos too difficult to manage. But then I recall that Putin was his chosen successor, and I don't see how he could have thought that would help. Does anyone have better insight? 'Gorbachov' and 'Yeltsin' to me are merely shorthand for the regimes and policies they ran. I am not really into the cult of the personality. When Putin was Mayor of St Petersburg, he came to Finland a lot as his city was twinned with harbour city Turku. His metal commemorative plate was even added to the pavement of the Turku maritime museum. (Now removed.) People who knew him back then, all say he was a regular, normal guy, albeit, I dare say, seething at having to drive a taxi as an elite intelligence officer after the Berlin Wall came down. The rot started when all of the nationalised industries under the old communist collective regime were sold off corruptly to individuals - the oligarchs - who then sold the proceeds back to the government, trousering fabulous sums of money in profit (cf Abramovich) and which of course Putin took a cut. Russia is utterly riddled with corruption. As Lord Acton famously said, 'Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely'. That is what Putin has. He is surrounded by the siloviki, all equally corrupt as himself. (This is why I am not sure why Zelenskyy wants Abramovich as a negotiator.) Where there's brass there's muck. ~ Yorkshire adage. As a measure of this, one need only to look how successfully and completely the Russian oligarchs have infiltrated western democratic governments in buying up 'golden visas' - paying literally millions to buy citizenship - and then acquire property, and their aim, to gain influence by donating heavily into the ruling party coffers. Many saw the dangers coming, including the UK's own intelligence agencies, who were ignored because of the lucrative sums involved for the beneficiaries. The age old downfall of greed and avarice. We in the west need to look at ourselves closely in the mirror. Why did we not oppose the occupation of Crimea more strongly? Why did we let Trump have a private audience with Putin in Helsinki? Why did we let a Russian KGB asset into the House of Lords? How did we convince ourselves it was 'russophobia' to be hostile and suspicious of these opportunists?
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend Last edited by Vixen; 3rd April 2022 at 01:45 AM.

3rd April 2022, 01:51 AM	#243
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 12,908	Originally Posted by angrysoba I haven't really looked into him that closely but it might be that he himself was a pretty chaotic individual who was drunk most of the time. It wouldn't be a contradiction to say he wanted a free and open country, but was also corrupt and relied on corrupt individuals and lackeys to whom he sold off much of the national wealth, who may also have wanted to keep Russia as an empire and thus started a war in Chechnya, and had contradictory feelings about Eastern European countries who were quick to flock to the west and escape Russia's orbit. He's probably not the person you would choose if you wanted to a careful, rational person to steer Russia into the light. Probably not. At the time it seems he was the one that could successfully prevail against the reactionaries that probably wanted Brezhnev 2.0.
	__________________ Last edited by gnome; 3rd April 2022 at 02:01 AM.

3rd April 2022, 01:59 AM	#244
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,893	I can't opine directly about them, but... I think that it was probably pretty obvious by Gorbachev's time that Russia was falling behind in a bunch of ways and that something fundamental had to change if they didn't want the situation to become completely irreversible, and there was only one really obvious path to doing so. That he was actually able to acknowledge such speaks well in his favor, at least. Yeltsin? Yeltsin was a KGB leader, was he not? I think that that alone speaks enough to his nature.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

3rd April 2022, 02:23 AM	#245
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,754	Originally Posted by gnome In retrospect, what do people think of the intentions of Gorbachev and Yeltsin? My impression is that Gorbachev was actually interested in steering the country towards modernization, more open and peaceful relations with other countries, and even democratization down the road... though pursuing the slow approach, trying to use his autocratic powers to maintain control during what he expected would be a long transition, and trying to keep "core" satellite states within the Russian/Soviet sphere. Eventually it slid out of his grasp and took a life of its own, for better or worse. I think that's right on the money. Gorbachev was a good guy but out of his depth due to the excesses of the Stalinists before him. Originally Posted by gnome Yeltsin? Drunken bum in the right place at the right time.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

3rd April 2022, 03:27 AM	#246
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,908	Originally Posted by Vixen 'Gorbachov' and 'Yeltsin' to me are merely shorthand for the regimes and policies they ran. I am not really into the cult of the personality. When Putin was Mayor of St Petersburg, he came to Finland a lot as his city was twinned with harbour city Turku. His metal commemorative plate was even added to the pavement of the Turku maritime museum. (Now removed.) People who knew him back then, all say he was a regular, normal guy, albeit, I dare say, seething at having to drive a taxi as an elite intelligence officer after the Berlin Wall came down. The rot started when all of the nationalised industries under the old communist collective regime were sold off corruptly to individuals - the oligarchs - who then sold the proceeds back to the government, trousering fabulous sums of money in profit (cf Abramovich) and which of course Putin took a cut. Russia is utterly riddled with corruption. As Lord Acton famously said, 'Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely'. That is what Putin has. He is surrounded by the siloviki, all equally corrupt as himself. (This is why I am not sure why Zelenskyy wants Abramovich as a negotiator.) Where there's brass there's muck. ~ Yorkshire adage. As a measure of this, one need only to look how successfully and completely the Russian oligarchs have infiltrated western democratic governments in buying up 'golden visas' - paying literally millions to buy citizenship - and then acquire property, and their aim, to gain influence by donating heavily into the ruling party coffers. Many saw the dangers coming, including the UK's own intelligence agencies, who were ignored because of the lucrative sums involved for the beneficiaries. The age old downfall of greed and avarice. We in the west need to look at ourselves closely in the mirror. Why did we not oppose the occupation of Crimea more strongly? Why did we let Trump have a private audience with Putin in Helsinki? Why did we let a Russian KGB asset into the House of Lords? How did we convince ourselves it was 'russophobia' to be hostile and suspicious of these opportunists? And how could Abramov buy Chelsea with stolen money.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,908

3rd April 2022, 03:47 AM	#247
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	Originally Posted by Aridas ETA - In much darker news, though, Russians booby-trapping homes as they retreat, claims Zelenskiy Ukraine’s president says the Russians are leaving mines as they withdraw; central cities hit by new missile strikes When you've already started war-criming you might as well continue.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

3rd April 2022, 03:54 AM	#248
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 25,580	I wonder how the "denazification" is going - maybe it should start in the Kremlin? https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1509171559386255360 I cannot attest to the videos in the tweet above this, but the photos in this one are well-attested.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

3rd April 2022, 03:56 AM	#249
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 With these widespread reports of atrocities by Russia I'd be sickened to the point of puking if the west just ends sanctions and goes back to business as usual with Russia. With support for the war on a sharp rise in Russia and the war crimes of the Russian aggression now being revealed I've stopped caring about the population. Russia needs to be completely isolated from the international society for a very, very, very long time to come. They cannot be allowed to rebuild.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

3rd April 2022, 04:03 AM	#250
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,167	Originally Posted by Samson And how could Abramov buy Chelsea with stolen money. I'm sure that the fact that London is the money laundering capital of the World is purely coincidental.

3rd April 2022, 04:06 AM	#251
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 25,580	Originally Posted by erlando When you've already started war-criming you might as well continue. See also the war crimes in Mali. Again by the Wagner group, which is very close to the Russian state. or Syria. Or Chechnya
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

3rd April 2022, 04:06 AM	#252
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,835	Originally Posted by gnome Yeltsin? I have no idea. I had a hope that he too wanted to build a relatively free country and found the chaos too difficult to manage. But then I recall that Putin was his chosen successor, and I don't see how he could have thought that would help. Does anyone have better insight? No one could have coped with the chaos in the 1990s. Putin in 1999 was a safe pair of hands (who would not come after Yeltsin and his family) and re-establish a functioning state where the oligarchs influence would be reduced. Early 2000s he was having to publicly negotiate with the oligarchs and there was some sort of balance of power. The problem came when Putin did not retire after completing his constitutional 2 terms in charge and started re-writing the rules so that he remained in power (effectively a soft coup) and preventing normal politics from developing.
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,835

3rd April 2022, 04:44 AM	#253
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,809	Originally Posted by Aridas Yeltsin? Yeltsin was a KGB leader, was he not? I think that that alone speaks enough to his nature. No, not Yeltsin. It is Putin (the current leader!) who used to be a KGB officer.

3rd April 2022, 05:02 AM	#254
Manger Douse Muse Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 783	Originally Posted by Michel H It is likely that the Russian population is not well informed about events in Ukraine. It is sad (but perhaps revealing) that the European Union is resorting to the same kind of censorship tactics by banning RT (formerly Russia Today). It's only their licence to broadcast that has been revoked. You can still get your fresh Kremlin turds on RT.com
Manger Douse Muse Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 783

3rd April 2022, 05:19 AM	#255
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,809	Originally Posted by Manger Douse It's only their licence to broadcast that has been revoked. You can still get your fresh Kremlin turds on RT.com No, their website is banned also in the European Union (if you don't have a VPN). Ursula von der Leyen said on Twitter: Quote: Second, we will ban the Kremlin’s media machine in the EU. The state-owned Russia Today and Sputnik, and their subsidiaries, will no longer be able to spread their lies to justify Putin’s war. We are developing tools to ban their toxic and harmful disinformation in Europe. (https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/stat...73706831929348). I think that the journalists of RT.com are generally doing a good job, sometimes displaying remarkable neutrality. This is perhaps related to the fact that their audience is mostly international, and they want to achieve credibility with this audience.

3rd April 2022, 05:25 AM	#256
Manger Douse Muse Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 783	Originally Posted by Michel H No, their website is banned also in the European Union (if you don't have a VPN). EU will urgently suspend the broadcasting* activities of Sputnik’ and RT/Russia Today" https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...ing-in-the-eu/
Manger Douse Muse Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 783

3rd April 2022, 05:37 AM	#257
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,893	Originally Posted by Michel H No, not Yeltsin. It is Putin (the current leader!) who used to be a KGB officer. Putin certainly was. I've been used to hearing about Yeltsin primarily by means of his association with Putin, though, so it seems that I formed a mistaken impression. Thank you for the correction about Yeltsin actually being KGB.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 3rd April 2022 at 05:40 AM.

3rd April 2022, 06:54 AM	#258
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,949	Originally Posted by Aridas Yeltsin? Yeltsin was a KGB leader, was he not? I think that that alone speaks enough to his nature. No, he was a career politician. He probably was as much of a maverick as you could be and still advance in the Soviet Communist Party. He was, I believe, the first ever to resign from the politburo (a couple of years before the collapse of the USSR).
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

3rd April 2022, 07:15 AM	#259
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 5,784	Originally Posted by Michel H I think that the journalists of RT.com are generally doing a good job, sometimes displaying remarkable neutrality. This is perhaps related to the fact that their audience is mostly international, and they want to achieve credibility with this audience. Quote: Overall, we rate RT Questionable based on promoting pro-Russian propaganda, conspiracy theories, numerous failed fact checks, and a lack of author transparency. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rt-news/ Your blind support of state-sponsored propaganda does you no credit.
	__________________ Fortuna Faveat Fatuis

3rd April 2022, 07:38 AM	#260
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,788	Even more grisly scenes in Bucha. Apartment found with men who had apparently been executed and another room that had been used for torture. https://twitter.com/revishvilig/stat...193938949?s=21
	__________________ Слава Україні! **** Putin!

3rd April 2022, 07:52 AM	#261
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	Originally Posted by Michel H No, their website is banned also in the European Union (if you don't have a VPN). Ursula von der Leyen said on Twitter That's funny. I have no problems accessing rt dot com right now.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

3rd April 2022, 07:54 AM	#262
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	Originally Posted by angrysoba Even more grisly scenes in Bucha. Apartment found with men who had apparently been executed and another room that had been used for torture. https://twitter.com/revishvilig/stat...193938949?s=21 Russian propaganda claiming Ukrainians did this in 3... 2... 1...
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,271	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

3rd April 2022, 08:07 AM	#263
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,167	Originally Posted by erlando Russian propaganda claiming Ukrainians did this in 3... 2... 1... They already did, several hours ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

3rd April 2022, 08:20 AM	#264
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,718	Originally Posted by shemp Chicken Odessa? Do you have a recipe? True story: Years ago, while chatting with my best friend about imaginary travels that happened to take us to Kyiv in winter, I imagined "chicken Kyiv" to be a whole, frozen chicken, naked, unseasoned, put plonk on a bare white thick plate by a grumpy, stocky lady with rubber gloves. That was before I traveled to Kyiv for real and found it to be a warm and welcoming place (albeit with culinary opportunities of mixed attractiveness).
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

3rd April 2022, 08:25 AM	#265
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,788	Yeah, I expect there will be plenty of idiots who buy into Russian claims as well such as Michael Tracey who won’t quite say it was faked but who is nevertheless suggesting it is Ukrainian propaganda. One person I expected to take that line but hasn’t is Tulsi Ganbard who seems to be desperately trying to pivot after all her blame of the Ukrainians and the west for the invasion. Now suddenly she is against it. Looks to me like she is just going to end up pissing everyone off. She already dispatched with normal decent people to embrace the Russian propaganda and now she is being slated by her deplorable audience for turning on Putin. Sucks to suck. https://twitter.com/tulsigabbard/sta...994130433?s=21
	__________________ Слава Україні! **** Putin!

3rd April 2022, 08:45 AM	#266
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,718	Originally Posted by Aber No one could have coped with the chaos in the 1990s. Putin in 1999 was a safe pair of hands (who would not come after Yeltsin and his family) and re-establish a functioning state where the oligarchs influence would be reduced. Early 2000s he was having to publicly negotiate with the oligarchs and there was some sort of balance of power. The problem came when Putin did not retire after completing his constitutional 2 terms in charge and started re-writing the rules so that he remained in power (effectively a soft coup) and preventing normal politics from developing. Putin came to power on the popularity of his brutal conduct of the Chechen war (plus the ominous apartment block bombings - Russia's 9/11) - remember he was just one of a series of prime ministers under Yeltsin, but the one with the least scruples. He was the chief oligarch's (Berezovsky's) personal pick. His very first action as president was to guarantee Yeltsin he would never be prosecuted for robbing Russia and giving it to the oligarchs. The price for this of course was allowing Putin to become robber czar and the biggest of the oligarchs. Putin had the bad manners of chopping off his protégé Berezovsky, which made a point about who was calling the shots now. This meant that the oligarch system was to be retained, but with the new guy deciding who would be allowed to be one. The oligarchs were never a homogeneous group, pulling in a coordinated way on their end of the rope. Of course they would be fighting each other at every opportunity. Divide & Conquer was Putin's game.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

3rd April 2022, 08:50 AM	#267
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,718	Originally Posted by Michel H It is likely that the Russian population is not well informed about events in Ukraine. This is putting it weirdly. A bit like saying "it's likely that the cloudless day time sky in Russia is blue, too". Originally Posted by Michel H It is sad (but perhaps revealing) that the European Union is resorting to the same kind of censorship tactics by banning RT (formerly Russia Today). Which "information" are we missing out on now that RT is off the cables? Are you saying journalists are not free to report from Russia because of what the EU does? It appears to me that it is actually Russia that operates with heavy-handed threats (like 15 years of imprisonments) against anyone wishing to report about actual, true information from Russia. Haven't you noticed?
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

3rd April 2022, 09:54 AM	#268
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 33,951	Originally Posted by dudalb Reports that Russian soldiers appeared to indulged in rape quite a bit.I have no doubt this is true. Remember Germany in 1945. And , frankly, the Russian soldiers in 1945, though what they did is reprehensible, did have some extenuating circumstances that these Russian soldiers do not have. What is more scary, is maybe .like in 1945, it is "unofficial" Russian Policy to intimidate the population. Originally Posted by Aridas When rape is being claimed to be a fairly common thing to happen in the Russian military, especially done to new conscripts, the reports of raping civilians become even less surprising. Rape of civilians by soldiers in every army has been usual for millenia. Some worse than others, of course, but still universal.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

3rd April 2022, 11:04 AM	#269
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9,651	Originally Posted by Michel H It is likely that the Russian population is not well informed about events in Ukraine. It is sad (but perhaps revealing) that the European Union is resorting to the same kind of censorship tactics by banning RT (formerly Russia Today). Putin-Today is Kremlin propaganda with a wafer thin veneer of respectability. The EU is under no obligation to provide a platform for an enemies propaganda.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

3rd April 2022, 11:59 AM	#270
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Rape of civilians by soldiers in every army has been usual for millenia. Some worse than others, of course, but still universal. This is whataboutism. Let us just say that The Russian Army's is much much worse then most.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd April 2022, 12:00 PM	#271
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by trustbutverify Putin-Today is Kremlin propaganda with a wafer thin veneer of respectability. The EU is under no obligation to provide a platform for an enemies propaganda. Russia has reverted to the USSR with all indpendent media crushed.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd April 2022, 12:02 PM	#272
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Mass grave found outside of Kiev with at least 300 bodies in it. Babi Yar 2.........
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd April 2022, 12:11 PM	#273
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,167	Originally Posted by dudalb Mass grave found outside of Kiev with at least 300 bodies in it. Babi Yar 2......... Doubtless they all committed suicide in drug-fuelled shame over their Naziism.

3rd April 2022, 12:43 PM	#274
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,893	Originally Posted by dudalb This is whataboutism. Let us just say that The Russian Army's is much much worse then most. In the present day, at least. With that said, comparing the present day situation where we have codified rules for war and acceptable conduct in that way when it comes to such behavior during the millennia that we didn't is fundamentally off base.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

3rd April 2022, 01:08 PM	#275
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	The Rape of Nanking also comes to mind.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.