[Continuation] The Russian Invasion of Ukraine (3)

[Manger Douse]

Originally Posted by Michel H

You are not erlando, Manger Douse, so you can't answer for him (or her).

You can broadcast through the Internet too.

When I try to access RT.com (without a VPN) from Belgium, I see the message:

That's because you're lying. Show me a news article anyway that states the EU is blocking rt.com.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

That's because you're lying. Show me a news article anyway that states the EU is blocking rt.com.

Quote:

As part of its sanctions against Russia, the European Union is imposing sweeping new restrictions on search engines and social media companies' ability to share content from Russian state media outlets RT and Sputnik.

In a notice to Google, the European Commission said it is requiring search engines to remove all search results that contain links to or even "short textual descriptions" of RT and Sputnik content. It's also requiring social media platforms to block posts linking to or rebroadcasting content from either outlet. ...
While Facebook, YouTube, Twitter and TikTok are already blocking both outlets inside of Europe, forcing Google to remove search results — even to news stories that link to or describe RT and Sputnik stories — is an extreme escalation.

(https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/e...-google-search)

And we, citizens of the EU, pay civil servants of the European Commission to do this kind of things ...

Really saddening.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Putin came to power on the popularity of his brutal conduct of the Chechen war (plus the ominous apartment block bombings - Russia's 9/11) - remember he was just one of a series of prime ministers under Yeltsin, but the one with the least scruples. He was the chief oligarch's (Berezovsky's) personal pick.

His very first action as president was to guarantee Yeltsin he would never be prosecuted for robbing Russia and giving it to the oligarchs.
The price for this of course was allowing Putin to become robber czar and the biggest of the oligarchs. Putin had the bad manners of chopping off his protégé Berezovsky, which made a point about who was calling the shots now. This meant that the oligarch system was to be retained, but with the new guy deciding who would be allowed to be one.
The oligarchs were never a homogeneous group, pulling in a coordinated way on their end of the rope. Of course they would be fighting each other at every opportunity. Divide & Conquer was Putin's game.

Indeed. In fact a number of people had already met untimely deaths because of their criticism of Putin. Anna Politkovskaya was investigating the apartment bombings as well as war crimes that had been committed in Chechnya when she was shot dead in her apartment. Then of course there was Litvinenko who was murdered by a guy Putin made a member of the Duma.

There had been some cautious optimism for him at the beginning because he wasn’t an unstable drunk like Yeltsin, but it became pretty quickly obvious that Putin was an authoritarian who would wipe out his opponents in one way or another.

[Manger Douse]

Originally Posted by Michel H

And we, citizens of the EU, pay civil servants of the European Commission to do this kind of things ...

Really saddening.

No mention of RT.com?

You even quoted my asking

Really sad

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Tulsi Gabbard said, in the tweet you mention:

Isn't this completely flawless? What's the point of criticizing so much a person who seems reasonable?

Oh she is absolutely right that what Putin is doing is reprehensible. She should have thought of that before cheering him on and discrediting Ukraine’s claims to being a democracy and acting as an apologist for his threats each night on Fox News with Lord Haw Haw… I mean Tucker Carlson.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Oh she is absolutely right that what Putin is doing is reprehensible. She should have thought of that before cheering him on and discrediting Ukraine’s claims to being a democracy and acting as an apologist for his threats each night on Fox News with Lord Haw Haw… I mean Tucker Carlson.

I assume that, like many smart people, her opinion about Putin changed considerably after February 24, 2022.

[ginjawarrior]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Oh she is absolutely right that what Putin is doing is reprehensible. She should have thought of that before cheering him on and discrediting Ukraine’s claims to being a democracy and acting as an apologist for his threats each night on Fox News with Lord Haw Haw… I mean Tucker Carlson.

she's still encouraging Ukrainian soldiers to pull out of a war that they didn't start and on their own soil

Quote:

Tulsi Gabbard ��
@TulsiGabbard
·
11h
Replying to
@TulsiGabbard
… and the people of Ukraine, that you pull your forces out now. It is still not too late to salvage the kinship felt between the Russian and Ukrainian people, as expressed in this video clip from a Ukrainian soldier.

i wouldnt give her too much credit here

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Aridas

In the present day, at least. With that said, comparing the present day situation where we have codified rules for war and acceptable conduct in that way when it comes to such behavior during the millennia that we didn't is fundamentally off base.

To poke a bit further on this subject, I think that Mark Sumner expressed it quite well -

Quote:

As for claims now circulating on social media along the lines of “bad things always happen in war,” or “the United States has done bad things too” or “this happened in other countries and we ignored it “ or “this is just an excuse to get us more involved in Ukraine,” the only answer worth delivering is simply this: **** that.

That bad things have happened in the past is no excuse for accepting them in the present. That bad things have been done in our name doesn’t absolve us of the need to seek justice. The idea that we must shrug off torture and murder because somewhere someone else has done as much, or worse, is as hideous as anything found under the rubble in Bucha. Or at Buchenwald.

We are all the descended from, related to, and have been governed by people who have committed atrocities. That does not either taint us beyond making a judgement or absolve us from seeking to do better. Quite the opposite. It charges us to improve.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I assume that, like many smart people, her opinion about Putin changed considerably after February 24, 2022.

It took her over a month to properly condemn it and in between she had been calling for Ukraine to just surrender. She was arguing with Sean Hannity about it and saying that the US and others should not be providing weapons to Ukraine as it would just prolong the war.

Now we have news stories of what the Russians were doing in Ukraine, like this one that is worth reading.

And please don’t start with the “well, if Ukraine had just surrendered quickly like Tulsi advocated then the Russian soldiers wouldn’t have got frustrated and had to have killed so many civilians….”

https://www.spiegel.de/international...6-68803276e473

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior

she's still encouraging Ukrainian soldiers to pull out of a war that they didn't start and on their own soil



i wouldnt give her too much credit here

No, that's not what she actually said, you are misquoting her. She wrote:

Quote:

President Putin, not only is your brutal attack on Ukraine reprehensible, it has been a huge geopolitical error which has already cost Russia dearly. Those costs will get higher every day you remain in Ukraine. So it is in the best interest of the Russian people and the people of Ukraine, that you pull your forces out now.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior

she's still encouraging Ukrainian soldiers to pull out of a war that they didn't start and on their own soil



i wouldnt give her too much credit here

Well, to be fair, that tweet is telling Putin to pull his troops from Ukraine. The sentence at the beginning is to do with the kinship between the people of Russia and the people of Ukraine.

Anyway, I am not giving her any credit for having only realized over a month late and for having only given tepid and qualified criticism (at best) until now.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

The NLAW and the Javelin have changed the way wars are fought forever. There ability for tanks to march into an urban environment and dominate simply isn’t true anymore. They would be sitting ducks given the abilities of these weapons.

Nothing has changed, the Russians are just rubbish at using tanks and combined arms.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I don't. I have watched multiple US Generals say the same thing. I'm not saying the tank is dead. But that they are expensive weapons platforms that can and are being neutralized by far less expensive portable weapons. Specifically in an urban environment tanks are vulnerable to such weapons.

They always have been.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I can't find the piece I read, but it talked about a big issue with the Russian tanks was that infantry vehicles were too far away or they were not getting out of the IFVs.

It talked about how important it was to train and drill contact drills and fire and maneuver when armor comes under fire.

Combined Arms is second nature to NATO forces, the Russians have never been good at it.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

a lot of defense expenditure is explained by inertia.

You have to have tanks for when you need tanks.
If you are going to have them they need to be up to date and effective.

It's too late to build them when the shooting starts.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Army folks correct me: I thought the whole point of gun stabilization was to fire on the move. This wasn't universal in WWII tanks. In the modern era, I thought the idea was to keep tanks moving and shooting.

It's like armchair admirals and the navy. It's said that aircraft carriers are obsolete due to Chinese and Russian hypersonic missiles, drones, cyber attacks, etc. But the trick is, a carrier is a mobile airbase. Land bases don' thave the same advantage. Keep moving.

With modern fire control, if you can see it you can hit it.
The trick is to hit first.
It's still better to fire from a stationary tank if you want to get a first round kill. Fire then move.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by dudalb

New Russian statement on the Fuel Depot Attack..and it wins the "You got to be kidding" award of the week:

"“I’d like to stress that this facility is used to supply fuel only to civilian transport vehicles. The oil terminal has no relation to the Russian armed forces,” he said."

What total BS.Good for a laugh though.
Only the Putin fanboys and total idiots will buy that crap.

Quite possibly true, Army logistics will not be using civilian fuel depots.
IK know that they don't in the UK.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Quite possibly true, Army logistics will not be using civilian fuel depots.
IK know that they don't in the UK.

Fuel is fungible. Push came to shove, I bet the UK would be using whatever fuel depots they had for the military necessities confronting them. There's no such thing as "civilian only" gasoline. There's no such thing as "civilian only" diesel. Any way you look at it, the Russians are full of ****, and running out of gas.

[crescent]

Jasmin Mujanović on twitter:

Quote:

As more atrocity sites are discovered in ���� following the ouster of ���� occupation forces, we can anticipate that the “denial stage” of Russia’s campaign will follow a familiar pattern. Again, I think Serb nationalist negationism of the Bosnian Genocide is instructive. ��

Twitter thread that is worth reading. It is very likely that many Ukrainian bodies have been transported to Russia or Belarus for disposal. The Serbs did that in the Yugoslavian wars, the author has links to well documented examples.

So the hundreds dead and the mass graves in Bucha probably only represent a fraction of the total deaths. They'll find more mass graves as they clear more areas further north, but there will be mass graves in Russia or Belarus that may not be found in our lifetimes.

The same activities are probably also occurring in areas of Donbass, Kherson, and in other areas under Russian occupation.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by crescent

Jasmin Mujanović on twitter:



Twitter thread that is worth reading. It is very likely that many Ukrainian bodies have been transported to Russia or Belarus for disposal. The Serbs did that in the Yugoslavian wars, the author has links to well documented examples.

So the hundreds dead and the mass graves in Bucha probably only represent a fraction of the total deaths. They'll find more mass graves as they clear more areas further north, but there will be mass graves in Russia or Belarus that may not be found in our lifetimes.

The same activities are probably also occurring in areas of Donbass, Kherson, and in other areas under Russian occupation.

Seems like it's been a few days since our daily reminder that Ukraine is winning this thing.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Seems like it's been a few days since our daily reminder that Ukraine is winning this thing.

Well, the Russians are on the run.
It's just a matter of how many people they murder before they are gone altogether.

[dudalb]

I have a sick feeling this is just the tip of the iceburg and as more area of Ukraine are liberated, we will find more atrocities.
Time fo face facts: Russia should not be treated as a civlized country as as long as puting in power.

[dudalb]

This just proves what I have saying" The future of the Democracti West is at stake. If they allow Putin to get away with this they are doomed.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I have a sick feeling this is just the tip of the iceburg and as more area of Ukraine are liberated, we will find more atrocities.
Time fo face facts: Russia should not be treated as a civlized country as as long as puting in power.

Originally Posted by dudalb

This just proves what I have saying" The future of the Democracti West is at stake. If they allow Putin to get away with this they are doomed.

I'm not sure that backing a nuclear armed failed state into a corner they can't get out of is the right choice here.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by jimbob

See also the war crimes in Mali*. Again by the Wagner group, which is very close to the Russian state.


*or Syria.

Or Chechnya

And Central African Republic.

Originally Posted by dudalb

Russia has reverted to the USSR with all indpendent media crushed.

They've cut off access to Russia's internal Instagram-like site at last. I've been posting pictures to their Ukraine section since the invasion and they've now cut off external access to it. Took them a while, their efficiency is legendary.

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by dudalb

This just proves what I have saying" The future of the Democracti West is at stake. If they allow Putin to get away with this they are doomed.

What does get away with it mean? A lot of punitive actions were taken. Isn't that the definition of not getting away with it?

[Arcade22]

Unfortunately it's all too common for poorly disciplined, brutal and inhumane military forces to take out their frustration and anger on civilians like this.

The Russians got owned, totally humiliated by what they think of as a "poor ******** country", and incapable of doing anything about this fact they kill civilians who happen be present.

Russian scum will of course deny this just like they deny everything.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Unfortunately it's all too common for poorly disciplined, brutal and inhumane military forces to take out their frustration and anger on civilians like this.

While I appreciate your efforts to denigrate the Russian Army, you don't have to be indisciplined to commit atrocities.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Unfortunately it's all too common for poorly disciplined, brutal and inhumane military forces to take out their frustration and anger on civilians like this.

The Russians got owned, totally humiliated by what they think of as a "poor ******** country", and incapable of doing anything about this fact they kill civilians who happen be present.

Russian scum will of course deny this just like they deny everything.

It is almost certainly part of the actual plan. As it has been in Syria. Terror and reprisals.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

While I appreciate your efforts to denigrate the Russian Army, you don't have to be indisciplined to commit atrocities.

Generally disciplined war criminals don't leave proof of their crimes out in the streets for everyone to see.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Generally disciplined war criminals don't leave proof of their crimes out in the streets for everyone to see.

See the linked Twitter thread for more explanation

Originally Posted by crescent

Jasmin Mujanović on twitter:



Twitter thread that is worth reading. It is very likely that many Ukrainian bodies have been transported to Russia or Belarus for disposal. The Serbs did that in the Yugoslavian wars, the author has links to well documented examples.

So the hundreds dead and the mass graves in Bucha probably only represent a fraction of the total deaths. They'll find more mass graves as they clear more areas further north, but there will be mass graves in Russia or Belarus that may not be found in our lifetimes.

The same activities are probably also occurring in areas of Donbass, Kherson, and in other areas under Russian occupation.

[erlando]

Originally Posted by Michel H

But you don't say where you are.

It's no secret. I'm located in Denmark.

[Arcade22]

Quote:

Russia’s foreign ministry said that footage of dead civilians in the Ukrainian town of Bucha had been “ordered” by the United States as part of a plot to blame Russia.

“Who are the masters of provocation? Of course the United States and Nato,” ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said in an interview on state television late on Sunday, Reuters reports.

Zakharova said the immediate Western outcry over the images of dead civilians indicated the story had been part of a plan to sully Russia’s reputation.

“In this case, it seems to me that the fact that these statements (about Russia) were made in the first minutes after these materials appeared leaves no doubt as to who ‘ordered’ this story.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...08df8dc556459f

Note that anyone hoping that Russian people will grow a conscience and finally have enough can forget it. Like flipping a switch or pressing a button, as soon as the kremlin propagandist says the word "provocation" a stunningly large portion of Russians shut off all critical thinking and dismiss everything that paints Russia in negative light as fake propaganda.

[erlando]

Originally Posted by Michel H

You are not erlando, Manger Douse, so you can't answer for him (or her).

You can broadcast through the Internet too.

When I try to access RT.com (without a VPN) from Belgium, I see the message:

Quote:

ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED

Problem must be at your end. I just reconfirmed access to rt dot com from an entirely different internet connection in Denmark than yesterday. Site loads without problems.

[Arcade22]

I have no problem reaching the RT propaganda website from Sweden, not that I would want to be misinformed about current events or indulge in pathetic conspiracy theories. I'm sure Neo-Nazis find that kind of stuff appealing though.

Edit: Just for clarity, I'm not using a VPN or anything and its just the regular DNS server provided by my ISP.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

While I appreciate your efforts to denigrate the Russian Army, you don't have to be indisciplined to commit atrocities.

We know that these things happen but Russia does it as apart of it's official military strategy and always has.

[Arcade22]

Quote:

Russia’s chief investigator orders investigation into Ukraine 'provocation' over Bucha
Russia’s chief investigator on Monday ordered an official examination of what he called a Ukrainian “provocation” after Kyiv accused the Russian military of massacring civilians in the town of Bucha.

Reuters reports Alexander Bastrykin, head of the Russian Investigative Committee, ordered that an inquiry be opened on the basis that Ukraine had spread “deliberately false information” about Russian armed forces in Bucha, the committee said in a statement.

Bastrykin provided no evidence for his claims.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...08224285ca0115

What really angers me isn't just what the Russians are doing. I mean, what they do is bad enough already, make no mistake, but what really makes them so outrageous is this self-righteous and pathetic victim playing they always engage in.

They always lie about everything, no matter how obvious their lies are or how obscene, grotesque, repugnant and laughable they end up looking, only so they can portray themselves as innocent victims. Shooting down airliners, state sponsored doping, war crimes, fake elections, murdering dissidents, poisoning people in the UK and more. In the end their lies always end up amounting to: "We are innocent! Evil NATO/US lies! Russia did nothing wrong ever in all of history!"

Edit: Putin and likeminded people say the Europe is degenerate and weak, yet Russia is really one of the most degenerate and corrupt cesspools on Earth. Their whole country is a lie.

[Captain_Swoop]

Orban won the election in Hungary with 53% of the vote. Nearest opposition party was 35%

He says "We never had so many opponents, Brussels bureaucrats, the international mainstream media, and the Ukrainian president."

We can see where he thinks his bread is buttered.

[The Great Zaganza]

The Indian reaction to the war in Ukraine has been interesting.

Nominally, India is quite pro-Russia, getting most of their military gear from their, as well as a ton of food.
HOWEVER:
Russia did a couple of things that made India really upset:

- they bombed the places in Ukraine that produce parts for India military transports and ships
- they disrupted food supplies to India, causing dramatically rising prices, especially for cooking oil
- they made it hard for Indian students in Ukraine to leave (there are more Indian students in Ukraine than Russia)
- they signed an alliance (on paper) with China that suggests that in a conflict with China, Russia would side with them over India

If Putin and Modi weren't such good buddies, this war would have pushed India into the US camp for good already - it still might.

[llwyd]

I think this sums up the Battle of Kyiv very well: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/statu...76474175115281