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Old 28th April 2022, 01:10 PM   #41
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Up to about my 21st year, I was an Old Earth Creationist who believed the Noachian Flood happened, but that it was some local event. I believed that Adman and Eve were real people God created, giving Humans a special status.

But then I began reading actual Science books instead of the Seventh Day Adventist Creationist offerings.

Of course, I also believed the Gospels were written by the disciples (and Luke), and that the Jesus Christ I was taught of in Sunday and Sabbath School was the actual historical figure.

If your reading stays in the bubble of "good Christain literature," you're going to be in the dark.

Religion, folks. I can't think of a single religious tradition that doesn't have some pseudo-history attached, or some myth taken for actual history.
On the Noachian flood - a few years ago, I came across this story

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-10-000-years/

Quote:
Ancient Sea Rise Tale Told Accurately for 10,000 Years
Aboriginal stories of lost islands match up with underwater finds in Australia

By John Upton, Climate Central on January 26, 2015
.

And when you look at how the sea level would have risen in the Arabian Gulf and the Red Sea at the end of the Ice Age, I have seen analyses that claimed a sudden flood followed by a more gradual advance of hundreds of yards to a mile a year from say 8000BC to 4000BC. (very roughly

If you were in a mesolithic population, living on the coast, because that's a great resource for hunter gatherers, then such a noteworthy disaster follower by continual encroaching would almost seem tailor-made to get into oral histories in the region.
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Old 28th April 2022, 01:35 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
On the Noachian flood - a few years ago, I came across this story

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-10-000-years/

.

And when you look at how the sea level would have risen in the Arabian Gulf and the Red Sea at the end of the Ice Age, I have seen analyses that claimed a sudden flood followed by a more gradual advance of hundreds of yards to a mile a year from say 8000BC to 4000BC. (very roughly

If you were in a mesolithic population, living on the coast, because that's a great resource for hunter gatherers, then such a noteworthy disaster follower by continual encroaching would almost seem tailor-made to get into oral histories in the region.
Doggerland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
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Old 28th April 2022, 01:42 PM   #43
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My dad had a bunch of pseudoscience books from the 1950s with titles like "Stranger Than Fiction" and "Mind Control Experiments From Behind The Iron Curtain" with purportedly true stories of unexplained phenomena, like spontaneous human combustion, disappearances in broad daylight, and people who could move objects with their mind or see colors while blindfolded. I swallowed it all wholesale.
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Old 28th April 2022, 01:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
My dad had a bunch of pseudoscience books from the 1950s with titles like "Stranger Than Fiction" and "Mind Control Experiments From Behind The Iron Curtain" with purportedly true stories of unexplained phenomena, like spontaneous human combustion, disappearances in broad daylight, and people who could move objects with their mind or see colors while blindfolded. I swallowed it all wholesale.
Thatís a bit too much fiber in your diet.
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Old 28th April 2022, 02:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
...

...

...

...

...

Well, with a name like that it must have been a fun place, indeed! But I'm not surprised in the least that the Old Testament God destroyed it.
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Old 28th April 2022, 03:24 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The Alamo myth, in a nutshell, is that a bunch of brave Texans, who stood for Justice and freedom, made a stand against the oppressive Mexican government at the Alamo, bravely holding them off until the very last man died. This heroic sacrifice bought time for Sam Houston to raise an army and finally defeat the evil Mexicans and win Texas Independence. Yee-Haw!

This is a good story detailing a recent book that seeks to take another more realistic look at the Alamo and the Texas Revolution in general. Spoiler: The Alamo story is all lies. Slavery was the main issue; the Texans were actually settlers -cotton farmers- of Mexican territory from America who fought against Mexico because Mexico abolished slavery.

The true story has been well known to be lies for a long time. But the scholars who exposed all this were Hispanic scholars so the story was ignored. Itís only now that three White dudes wrote a book that the truth is starting to get wider recognition.

The book: Forget the Alamo

https://www.amazon.com/Forget-Alamo-...78822306&psc=1
FOrger the Alamo is interesting, but it goes way too far to the other side, it is as simplistic in it's own way as the popular Myth.
Although it does not focus as the siege, A book by William C Davis called "Three Roads To The Alamo' is an intersting book that wrecks some of the myths without going to the other extreme. It is a biogrpahy of the Three most famous figures at the Alamo, Davy Crockett, Jim Bowie, and William Travis. It shows they were not the saints of Texas mythlogy.
The most revelaing is Bowie; he had nothing to do with the invention of the knife names after him, and most of the duel and brawls that made him famous probably never happened.
And then there is Hollywood's versions, which, excpet for the 2003 film gets basic military details wrong.
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Old 28th April 2022, 03:26 PM   #47
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I remember my first grade teacher told the class that modern Israel had won all of its wars because God was with Israel, and while I understood little about the complexities of Middle Eastern affairs, I probably had seen maps of the region and knew that Israel was really quite small compared to the combined Arab countries, and so I figured that her claim with God picking sides sounded plausible, how else would such a small country win all wars?

(This was in the mid-1970s - wasn't necessarily during my first year in school, but definitely in primary school = grades 1-4)
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Old 28th April 2022, 07:03 PM   #48
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I think the most inaccurate part of US history I was ever taught concerned the War of 1812.

The grade school version of it was that England (sic) was trying to reconquer America, but Andy Jackson and some other people gave them a good lickin' and the United States remained free.

Napoleon who?


Even the high school version was basically England was flexing its muscles and pressing Americans into the British Navy, so the US went to war to defend itself.

Now, I look at it as more like Americans hoped to take Canada from Britain while Britain was busy trying to defeat Napoleon, but the scheme lost. However, the Battle of New Orleans did secure the gateway to the Louisiana Purchase territory, thus enabling the real westward expansion of the United States, even though the battle was fought after the war was over.
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Old 29th April 2022, 02:39 AM   #49
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Atun-Shei has done a series of videos on the History of New Orleans including this one on the Battle Of New Orleans. It has myths too.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 29th April 2022, 03:27 AM   #50
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Once I believed the Avro Arrow was magic, and its cancelation a travesty.

Then I realized it was nothing special, and interceptors were a dead end anyway.

Now I see it as a cromulent third gen design, similar to its many contemporaries around the world. If it hadn't been canceled, it would have been an evolutionary stepping stone to fourth gen designs. Similar to its contemporaries around the world. Canada lost something of value when it was canceled. But not a ton of value.
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Old 29th April 2022, 03:37 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Once I believed the Avro Arrow was magic, and its cancelation a travesty.

Then I realized it was nothing special, and interceptors were a dead end anyway.

Now I see it as a cromulent third gen design, similar to its many contemporaries around the world. If it hadn't been canceled, it would have been an evolutionary stepping stone to fourth gen designs. Similar to its contemporaries around the world. Canada lost something of value when it was canceled. But not a ton of value.
We get the same guff about the TSR2 in the UK.
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Old 29th April 2022, 04:06 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We get the same guff about the TSR2 in the UK.
Ha, that's what theprestige's post made me think of.

Does that happen with the XB70 in the US?
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Old 29th April 2022, 05:07 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Ha, that's what theprestige's post made me think of.

Does that happen with the XB70 in the US?
Any cancelled military project was the best thing ever and would still be cutting edge for decades.
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Old 29th April 2022, 06:15 AM   #54
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It is being said (and in fact still suggested on the German Wikipedia) that, when, per first day of 1891, German chancellor Otto von Bismarck introduced mandatory social security towards state-organized retirement benefits, and retirement age was set to 70 years, hardly anyone would get to benefit from it, as life expectancy was well beyond 70 years then.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz...)#Anf%C3%A4nge
Originally Posted by wikipedia.de
Sie sah eine Altersrente ab dem 70. Lebensjahr vor (bei einer wesentlich geringeren Lebenserwartung als heute)
[It - the retirement provisions - provided for retirement benefits starting at age 70 (amid a significantly lower life expectancy than today)]
But that's not actually so true: Life expectancy was some years below 70 years mainly because of child mortality, but dead children would not have any expectations from social security. It would be fairer to look at what the age of men (as women mostly didn't earn wages working) who were old enough to work when the law took effect would actually end up to be.

I don't have "official" statistics, but a nice database of my relatives in the 19th century - births, deaths and marriages of almost all descendants of my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather.

In this data, I have 57 men who were anywhere between 16 and 60 years old on January 1st, 1891 and thus likely to be in the work force. Of those, more than half, 30, reached the age of 70. And those who did would go on to live for almost 11 more years on average to enjoy those benefits.

So it's true that roughly half of employees would never get to ever benefit, but suggesting that "most" would miss out, as I used to believe, is wrong, because the argument "life expectancy <70 years" is wrong: That is LE at birth. The correct metric would be LE at, say, 16 years old, when young men could be expected to enter the work force and the social security system. This was several years more than LE at birth in the late 19th century. Or even median age at death, which is higher still.
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Old 29th April 2022, 06:54 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It is being said (and in fact still suggested on the German Wikipedia) that, when, per first day of 1891, German chancellor Otto von Bismarck introduced mandatory social security towards state-organized retirement benefits, and retirement age was set to 70 years, hardly anyone would get to benefit from it, as life expectancy was well beyond 70 years then.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz...)#Anf%C3%A4nge

But that's not actually so true: Life expectancy was some years below 70 years mainly because of child mortality, but dead children would not have any expectations from social security. It would be fairer to look at what the age of men (as women mostly didn't earn wages working) who were old enough to work when the law took effect would actually end up to be.

I don't have "official" statistics, but a nice database of my relatives in the 19th century - births, deaths and marriages of almost all descendants of my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather.

In this data, I have 57 men who were anywhere between 16 and 60 years old on January 1st, 1891 and thus likely to be in the work force. Of those, more than half, 30, reached the age of 70. And those who did would go on to live for almost 11 more years on average to enjoy those benefits.

So it's true that roughly half of employees would never get to ever benefit, but suggesting that "most" would miss out, as I used to believe, is wrong, because the argument "life expectancy <70 years" is wrong: That is LE at birth. The correct metric would be LE at, say, 16 years old, when young men could be expected to enter the work force and the social security system. This was several years more than LE at birth in the late 19th century. Or even median age at death, which is higher still.
I don't know about 19th century statistics, but more modern life expectancies are given as the median age (as opposed to average). This is exactly to avoid the strong bias from early deaths. The median age means the age where half of the given population segment will still be alive.

Hans
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Old 29th April 2022, 08:43 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I don't know about 19th century statistics, but more modern life expectancies are given as the median age (as opposed to average). This is exactly to avoid the strong bias from early deaths. The median age means the age where half of the given population segment will still be alive.

Hans
I don't think this is true at all, and would like for you to provide evidence for this claim!

Wikipedia, usually a good starting point for such topics, talks exclusively of mean:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

The text, without footnotes, is long (13 screen pages on my notebook computer, offers several definitions involving means (e.g.: "Mathematically, life expectancy is the mean number of years of life remaining at a given age."), contains the word "mean" seven times, but "median" not even once.
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Old 29th April 2022, 08:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We get the same guff about the TSR2 in the UK.
Okay but high-altitude bombers really were a dead end.
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Old 29th April 2022, 08:49 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay but high-altitude bombers really were a dead end.
The TSR2 *did* have very impressive low-level performance from what I have seen.

Mind you, the Blackburn Buccaneer was pretty useful, and initially carrier based.
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Old 29th April 2022, 08:58 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Ha, that's what theprestige's post made me think of.

Does that happen with the XB70 in the US?
Not really. I'm sure there are some XB70 superfans who refuse to accept that ICBMs and long-range SAMs made high-altitude strategic bombers obsolete (no matter how sexy, and the Valkyrie is damn sexy). But it's not generally considered a point of national pride, or national travesty, that the project was canceled.
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Old 29th April 2022, 09:10 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not really. I'm sure there are some XB70 superfans who refuse to accept that ICBMs and long-range SAMs made high-altitude strategic bombers obsolete (no matter how sexy, and the Valkyrie is damn sexy). But it's not generally considered a point of national pride, or national travesty, that the project was canceled.
I guess it's not as if it was the last independent US aerospace project.

See also the Black Knight and Blue Streak projects.

where British designs looked like something out of Dan Dare.
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Old 29th April 2022, 09:24 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The TSR2 *did* have very impressive low-level performance from what I have seen.
Makes me think of a friend whose grandfather worked at Shoeburyness, researching the effects of shooting various projectiles at various airframes. I believe they have a fragment of one of the TSR-2s expended as a target. They also have his retirement present, engraved "To George, who destroyed more allied aircraft than any enemy".
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Old 29th April 2022, 09:31 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I guess it's not as if it was the last independent US aerospace project.
I had a whole second paragraph belaboring that point, but didn't want to rub it in.

On the other hand, there's been plenty of national pride-related wailing and gnashing of teeth over the US giving up independent manned space launch capability.
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Old 29th April 2022, 09:38 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The TSR2 *did* have very impressive low-level performance from what I have seen.
I've seen similar claims about the F-16XL, which had a similar delta wing design. And all the latest eurocanard multiroles are delta-winged.

The B-1 bomber, originally designed as a high-altitude bomber, was adapted into a capable low-level penetration bomber, the B-1B. It has a variable geometry wing.

On the other hand, the delta-winged B-58 Hustler was optimized for high-altitude, high-speed flight, and was an absolute waste of resources when it was forced into a low-altitude mission profile by improvements in SAM technology. That probably informed the decision to cancel the B-70 program.
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Old 29th April 2022, 10:16 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
FOrger the Alamo is interesting, but it goes way too far to the other side, it is as simplistic in it's own way as the popular Myth.
Although it does not focus as the siege, A book by William C Davis called "Three Roads To The Alamo' is an intersting book that wrecks some of the myths without going to the other extreme. It is a biogrpahy of the Three most famous figures at the Alamo, Davy Crockett, Jim Bowie, and William Travis. It shows they were not the saints of Texas mythlogy.
The most revelaing is Bowie; he had nothing to do with the invention of the knife names after him, and most of the duel and brawls that made him famous probably never happened.
And then there is Hollywood's versions, which, excpet for the 2003 film gets basic military details wrong.
On a tactical level it is glossed over that the troops at the Alamo could have evaded and harassed Santa Anna just as effectively as their last stand was, if not better had they bothered. They also failed to further fortify the Alamo, which was a pretty poor defensive position. Defending that location was a mistake.
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Old 29th April 2022, 11:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I don't think this is true at all, and would like for you to provide evidence for this claim!

Wikipedia, usually a good starting point for such topics, talks exclusively of mean:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

The text, without footnotes, is long (13 screen pages on my notebook computer, offers several definitions involving means (e.g.: "Mathematically, life expectancy is the mean number of years of life remaining at a given age."), contains the word "mean" seven times, but "median" not even once.
Mean, or median ... means the same. In statistics, you have mean and average. Average is sum of x (in this case age) divided with n, sum of instances (in this case people). Mean, or median is numbers above or below. In certain cases, they are the same, but mostly not.

Hans
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Old 29th April 2022, 12:28 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Mean, or median ... means the same. In statistics, you have mean and average. Average is sum of x (in this case age) divided with n, sum of instances (in this case people). Mean, or median is numbers above or below. In certain cases, they are the same, but mostly not.

Hans

Actually, mean is the average (as opposed to the median, discussed above, or the mode, which is simply the most common number in the series).

There are different types of mean, though. I suspect some sort of weighted mean, or an arithmetic mean excluding early ages, would be used. Probably best to examine each statistic individually. Different organizations may use different methods.
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Old 29th April 2022, 12:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Mean, or median ... means the same. In statistics, you have mean and average. Average is sum of x (in this case age) divided with n, sum of instances (in this case people). Mean, or median is numbers above or below. In certain cases, they are the same, but mostly not.

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"Average" is vernacular, usually used for "mean", but sometimes for "median", sometimes for vaguer concepts like "middle of the road value".

"Mean" is the usual short-hand for "arithmetic mean", which is the sum of a set of values divided by their number.

This is different from "median" - the value that has as many values in the set above as below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean
"the arithmetic mean, also known as arithmetic average, is a measure of central tendency of a finite set of numbers: specifically, the sum of the values divided by the number of values."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average
"In ordinary language, an average is a single number taken as representative of a list of numbers, usually the sum of the numbers divided by how many numbers are in the list (the arithmetic mean). ... Depending on the context, an average might be another statistic such as the median, or mode."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median
"the median is the value separating the higher half from the lower half ..."
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Old 29th April 2022, 12:50 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Actually, mean is the average (as opposed to the median, discussed above, or the mode, which is simply the most common number in the series).

There are different types of mean, though. I suspect some sort of weighted mean, or an arithmetic mean excluding early ages, would be used. Probably best to examine each statistic individually. Different organizations may use different methods.
In demographics, Life Expectancy is really always based on the arithmetic mean of life spans actually reached. The most common is "Life expectancy at birth", but for many purposes, "Life expectancy at age x" is also used and important, for example for life insurances, obviously.

Also, there may be differences in what the sampled population actually is. The concept of "LE at birth" suggests that we know how long a baby born today (or this year) would be expected to live - but we won't know that value until after the last person born today (or this year) will have died, i.e. more than 100 years into the future.
So instead, one might take all the people who die today / this year, calculate their mean age at death, assume that people born today / this year will face the same odds of dying each year of their lives - not a super realistic assumption.
In practice, there are ways to calculate the expected remaining number of years for people at every year of age, this year, and model the life of a baby born this year using these odds.

In any case, the base calculus is always "mean", never "median". I would think that population statistics using the median would be termed something other than "life expectancy".
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Old 29th April 2022, 01:19 PM   #69
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I once believed the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot were legitimate cryptozoological mysteries, later illuminated by scientific investigation, and now only believed by the credulous and the fantasists.

Now I'm pretty sure they were intentional hoaxes from the start.
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Old 29th April 2022, 01:50 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Any cancelled military project was the best thing ever and would still be cutting edge for decades.
Isn't it amazing, the greatest military technology ever developed keeps getting cancelled while all the crappy useless overpriced boondoggles get approved?
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Old 29th April 2022, 02:02 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
My dad had a bunch of pseudoscience books from the 1950s with titles like "Stranger Than Fiction" and "Mind Control Experiments From Behind The Iron Curtain" with purportedly true stories of unexplained phenomena, like spontaneous human combustion, disappearances in broad daylight, and people who could move objects with their mind or see colors while blindfolded. I swallowed it all wholesale.
I had and read a lot of that ilk back in the Sixties.
I credit three main people for teaching me some skeptical taste.

My 9th Grade Civics Teacher. I wish I remembered his name. He taught critical thinking and respect for reliable sources.

Martin Gardner.

Issaac Asimov.
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Old 29th April 2022, 02:15 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Isn't it amazing, the greatest military technology ever developed keeps getting cancelled while all the crappy useless overpriced boondoggles get approved?
This is definitely a piece of pseudohistory I once sorta believed!
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Old 30th April 2022, 05:45 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
My dad had a bunch of pseudoscience books from the 1950s with titles like "Stranger Than Fiction" and "Mind Control Experiments From Behind The Iron Curtain" with purportedly true stories of unexplained phenomena, like spontaneous human combustion, disappearances in broad daylight, and people who could move objects with their mind or see colors while blindfolded. I swallowed it all wholesale.
Hell. I was there in the 50s. I own most of those books. Most fun are those by Charles FortWP because he did not seem to be such a believer as all the others were but more of just a reporter and asker of questions.

Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of ScienceWP lead me to the Light.
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Old 30th April 2022, 05:54 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Once I believed the Avro Arrow was magic, and its cancelation a travesty.

Then I realized it was nothing special, and interceptors were a dead end anyway.

Now I see it as a cromulent third gen design, similar to its many contemporaries around the world. If it hadn't been canceled, it would have been an evolutionary stepping stone to fourth gen designs. Similar to its contemporaries around the world. Canada lost something of value when it was canceled. But not a ton of value.
Much of the Canadian upset over the cancellation of the Arrow was the manner in which it was done - the complete destruction of every existing plane, air-frame, equipment and documentation. There was no effort to build on any of the technology in Canada and US Space Program benefited when the Avro engineers exited to the US.
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Old 30th April 2022, 07:17 PM   #75
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The Fess Parker - Disney - Davey Crockett version of post revolutionary war America and the Alamo.

The "Lost Cause" version of the Civil War.

I'm guessing nobody here sent the B-52 a 70th Birthday card this year.
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Old 30th April 2022, 07:43 PM   #76
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FDR admin foreknowledge of the Pearl Harbor attacks

The euhemerized Exodus

Authorship of the New Testament
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Old 1st May 2022, 04:10 AM   #77
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I never believed any of the history at school. To me, names like Bismarck, Wellington, Napoleon, Nelson, Tilly, Wallenstein, etc., were just convenient shorthand for a potted history that to me were no different from fictional characters but were based on real ones eulogised and made larger than life. However, when you look at the sheer numbers of people who died during all those wars - literally hundreds of millions of people - you realise that history is more than the story of a couple of generals, even you do add the monicker 'Great' after their name. For example, Alexander the Great, who, according to Tony Buzan, is the 'greatest man in history of all'. Don't get me wrong. I love history but it was only when I began to look more deeply into the 'myths and legends of history's great men' that I realised that often, the lives of the ordinary peasant or foot soldier, was just as fascinating as the Hitlers and Stalins of the world, if not more revealing of our own societies and how they have been shaped over time.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 08:11 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I once believed the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot were legitimate cryptozoological mysteries, later illuminated by scientific investigation, and now only believed by the credulous and the fantasists.

Now I'm pretty sure they were intentional hoaxes from the start.
I probably bought into everything that had an episode of In Search of. Certainly, believed in Bigfoot and at least thought Nessie was plausible. There is an otherwise unremarkable parody movie, (I think amazon women on the moon or such) that had a bit called, "Bull **** or not!" Sort of In Search of suggesting that Jack the Ripper was Nessie.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Isn't it amazing, the greatest military technology ever developed keeps getting cancelled while all the crappy useless overpriced boondoggles get approved?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is definitely a piece of pseudohistory I once sorta believed!
It probably helps that the second have of that statement really seems at least half true.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 10:17 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I probably bought into everything that had an episode of In Search of. Certainly, believed in Bigfoot and at least thought Nessie was plausible.

I remember watching the episode about psychic surgery and thinking it was amazing. Now I know it's just mediocre sleight-of-hand with props.

When I was a kid I had a copy of "Ripley's Believe It or Not - Stars Space UFOs". I think I may have gotten it during one of the RIF free book days at school, but I'm not sure. It was full of things like tire tracks found on the moon where the Lunar Rover had never gone and "angel hair" - fine fibers left behind by UFOs, which had the amazing power to completely evaporate before it could be analyzed, not even leaving behind a residue.

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Old 2nd May 2022, 10:49 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
which had the amazing power to completely evaporate before it could be analyzed, not even leaving behind a residue.
That happened to my homework sometimes.
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