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Old 28th April 2022, 07:08 PM   #41
Shalamar
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Oh, I'm sure that won't be a worry for too long. Probably some "experts" will soon publish a paper that suggests early surgical mutilation is best. It is "gender-affirming care", after all.

Thinking about this makes me chuckle...briefly. It is like the goal for some liberals is to literally create a society of dickless men. We must then refer to these people as "women"...or else.

Pretty kooky.
If true (And it is not) It would only make them on par with conservatives, who are already dickless.
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Old 29th April 2022, 07:26 AM   #42
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I suspect that equating tolerance of homosexuality and gender dysphoria with attempts to "literally create a society of dickless men" pretty much identifies the problem.

Aside from the fact that it's arrant nonsense, one wonders what those of that viewpoint are scared of. I would have thought in a truly egalitarian society, the ratio of men wanting to become women would be similar to that of women wanting to become men, so it would all sort of work out, unless you're worried about the birth rate. And as for that, allowing the transition would certainly be one way of making sure that if there's a genetic element to the thing, it ends right there. Why don't the enemies of gender dysphoria welcome transition?

Apart from that, I do wonder a little about the shifting fears and insecurities of the radical right, because once they feared homosexuals for possessing and using the very thing they now assert must be preserved at all costs.

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I recall that when I was about 12, I realized that my dick is attached at only one end.
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Old 29th April 2022, 10:11 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would have thought in a truly egalitarian society, the ratio of men wanting to become women would be similar to that of women wanting to become men, so it would all sort of work out, unless you're worried about the birth rate.
I understand what you're trying to say, but that's an oversimplified view of the problem. Humans are not Vulcans or robots, so culture and psychology are a wee bit more complicated than just a cold assessment of what's equal and whatnot. I mean, if just looking at which is more advantageous were the deciding factor, you wouldn't have trans-women in the first place
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Old 29th April 2022, 10:44 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I understand what you're trying to say, but that's an oversimplified view of the problem. Humans are not Vulcans or robots, so culture and psychology are a wee bit more complicated than just a cold assessment of what's equal and whatnot. I mean, if just looking at which is more advantageous were the deciding factor, you wouldn't have trans-women in the first place
True but if the people involved are willing to forego conventional advantage for their own reasons, who are we to impose our ideas of advantage upon them.

I certainly agree that the problem is not simplistic, which is why I object to the simplistic approach of Victorian moralists, and to statements such as the suggestion that liberals want literally to create a society of dickless men. Life is ******* complicated, with or without a hyphen between the asterisks and the "complicated."
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Old 29th April 2022, 12:07 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Fertility is a female-specific term, virility is a male-specific term.

So let's just sidestep all of that, and say that pushing a child's testes up into their inguinal canals and using very tight-fitting underwear to force them to stay inside their bodies can most assuredly cause sterility.

Not where I learned English it isn't. Fertility is a term applied to both male and female animals, and denotes their ability to produce offspring. We do not say that a bull is "invirile", we say he is infertile. Infertility is not specific to one sex or the other.

Virlity is a much more nebulous term, and certainly male-specific. It may refer to the ability to penetrate a female (with or without ejactulation) or it may refer more generally to masculine behaviour and "performing masculinity". A virile male (capable of copulating with a female) may nevertheless be infertile (often referred to as "firing blanks").
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Old 29th April 2022, 07:34 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
True but if the people involved are willing to forego conventional advantage for their own reasons, who are we to impose our ideas of advantage upon them.
Very much so, but that's not my point. My point is that you can't judge how egalitarian (or anything else) a society is by just how many trans of each kind it has, unless you are reasonable sure that you have accounted for all other cultural, biological and psychological variables. And currently we don't even really know what those variables really are. It's entirely possible that you wouldn't reach parity even in the most egalitarian society imaginable.
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Old 29th April 2022, 08:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I was directly responding to a post about transgenderism...not homosexuality.
Fine. Do you really think that sexual identity is determined by cultural programming? In the absence of said programming, would gender identity be essentially random?

Quote:
Obviously you could see this, since you quoted my post. That is quite a disingenuous representation of my position.
Feel free to play the victim, just please answer my above question.

Quote:
Thus, I suppose we won't be debating this topic any further.
If you run away, not with you. But the rest of us can still talk about your "arguments" with or without you.
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Old 29th April 2022, 08:49 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Because homosexuals don't mutilate their bodies/take hormones in an attempt to become something that they are biologically not. Also, if we consider gender norms a societal construct, nobody is born "transgender". Homosexuality is not based upon such constructs; it is based upon sexual attraction, which is more instinctual.

This discussion is probably more appropriate for the transgender-specific thread.
Nobody is born with a tattoo of their girlfriend's name on their arse either. Are people with tattoos, breast implants, piercings etcetera afflicted with mental defects?

And it really isn't up to you to tell others what they can and can't do with their own bodies. If that's what Florida's legislation really comes down to - self-righteous posturing about things that are none of their ******* business - then I'm definitely on the side of anyone who speaks up and says that laws intended to to restrict the rights of self-determination of others are wrong.

Authoritarians have a real problem understanding the concept of protecting someone's right to do something they themselves don't want to do. I'm disgusted, personally, by the idea of people getting off by peeing on each other. But I don't think that it then follows that it's something that should be legally proscribed, even among people who consensually agree to it.
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Old 29th April 2022, 08:54 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
To which liberals are you referring, specifically?
The one's made of straw, of course. Get too close with a match and they'll be flaming.
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Old 30th April 2022, 12:33 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The statement was "Because homosexuals don't mutilate their bodies/take hormones in an attempt to become something that they are biologically not."

Sorry, I disagree with the sentiments of the poster you are replying to, but you aren't arguing against what he actually said.
Thatís only true if it is not the mutilation that Warp is objecting to but the reason. The thing is we already know that he is against transgender people so mentioning the mutilation apparently adds nothing.
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Old 30th April 2022, 05:06 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Nobody is born with a tattoo of their girlfriend's name on their arse either. Are people with tattoos, breast implants, piercings etcetera afflicted with mental defects?
Not sure about him, but yes, a whole bunch of the American xian-right does object to those kind of things because of the bible. (E.g., Leviticus 19:28.)

Though I think it's less BECAUSE of the bible and more like cherrypicking which parts of the OT (which at least the evangelicals claim was abolished by the NT, which frankly is what Paul also says) fit their already existing ideas of needing conformity.
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Old 30th April 2022, 05:07 AM   #52
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Hmm... maybe I should have become a priest/minister after all, the way I end up quoting or referencing scripture on weekends anyway. I mean, I don't actually believe in God, but then I don't have faith in the Oracle either and I'm still a Java and Oracle programmer

Plus, one more trans-woman preacher would give the conservatives even more fits
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Old 30th April 2022, 05:16 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not sure about him, but yes, a whole bunch of the American xian-right does object to those kind of things because of the bible. (E.g., Leviticus 19:28.)

Though I think it's less BECAUSE of the bible and more like cherrypicking which parts of the OT (which at least the evangelicals claim was abolished by the NT, which frankly is what Paul also says) fit their already existing ideas of needing conformity.
What about people who have BIID, and want to amputate an arm or a leg? Are they afflicted?

What about people with hypochondria, or Factitious disorder (Munchausen)?

Some people mutilate their genitals for fun. Others out of religious devotion. Still others merely out of custom. And some mutilate their genitals because they are deeply mentally disturbed.

So, which is it, with trans affirming surgery? Is it for fun? Religious fervor? Mental derangement? Medical treatment for mental derangement?

You don't do people with real, serious mental conditions any favors, by lumping their conditions in with recreational body piercing just to try to score some rhetorical point.
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Old 30th April 2022, 08:43 AM   #54
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NFC, mate. Ask whoever was arguing about those, not me. I suspect you could use Notepad for that.
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Old 1st May 2022, 07:16 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
NFC, mate. Ask whoever was arguing about those, not me. I suspect you could use Notepad for that.
You're absolutely right. Sorry for the confusion!

Foster Zygote, this question is for you:

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What about people who have BIID, and want to amputate an arm or a leg? Are they afflicted?

What about people with hypochondria, or Factitious disorder (Munchausen)?

Some people mutilate their genitals for fun. Others out of religious devotion. Still others merely out of custom. And some mutilate their genitals because they are deeply mentally disturbed.

So, which is it, with trans affirming surgery? Is it for fun? Religious fervor? Mental derangement? Medical treatment for mental derangement?

You don't do people with real, serious mental conditions any favors, by lumping their conditions in with recreational body piercing just to try to score some rhetorical point.
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Old 1st May 2022, 01:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I suspect that equating tolerance of homosexuality and gender dysphoria with attempts to "literally create a society of dickless men" pretty much identifies the problem.

Aside from the fact that it's arrant nonsense, one wonders what those of that viewpoint are scared of. I would have thought in a truly egalitarian society, the ratio of men wanting to become women would be similar to that of women wanting to become men, so it would all sort of work out, unless you're worried about the birth rate. And as for that, allowing the transition would certainly be one way of making sure that if there's a genetic element to the thing, it ends right there. Why don't the enemies of gender dysphoria welcome transition?

Apart from that, I do wonder a little about the shifting fears and insecurities of the radical right, because once they feared homosexuals for possessing and using the very thing they now assert must be preserved at all costs.

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I recall that when I was about 12, I realized that my dick is attached at only one end.
Great. One more damn thing to worry about.
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Old 1st May 2022, 01:57 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're absolutely right. Sorry for the confusion!

Foster Zygote, this question is for you:
Sorry to keep you waiting, but after all it is Sunday and I was terribly busy not bettering myself or the world around me.

I'm not one for false dichotomies. I'm not going to equate getting an arm tattoo with amputation. There's obviously a spectrum to self modification practices ranging from harmless to harmful. But I think it would have to get pretty extreme before it falls into the range of obvious self-harm. And as a man, I've never felt that being a woman fell into the same category as being an amputee, so if someone really wants gender reassignment surgery, and is well aware of what they're doing, I hardly think that it is comparable to lopping one's own healthy leg off.
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Old 1st May 2022, 02:18 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Sorry to keep you waiting, but after all it is Sunday and I was terribly busy not bettering myself or the world around me.

I'm not one for false dichotomies. I'm not going to equate getting an arm tattoo with amputation. There's obviously a spectrum to self modification practices ranging from harmless to harmful. But I think it would have to get pretty extreme before it falls into the range of obvious self-harm. And as a man, I've never felt that being a woman fell into the same category as being an amputee, so if someone really wants gender reassignment surgery, and is well aware of what they're doing, I hardly think that it is comparable to lopping one's own healthy leg off.
What's the difference between wanting to lop off one's healthy leg, and wanting to lop off one's healthy penis? Both seem to be a perfectly reasonable and healthy solution, to someone struggling with their body identity.
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Old 1st May 2022, 02:34 PM   #59
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Quote:
And as a man, I've never felt that being a woman fell into the same category as being an amputee,

If a male who had his cock and balls lopped off actually turned into a woman,that might be a reasonable point. However, a male with his cock and balls chopped off is still a male with his cock and balls chopped off. He doesn't magically (or even surgically) acquire normal female organs instead.
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Old 1st May 2022, 02:49 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Great. One more damn thing to worry about.
Only if, as many of my contemporaries seemed to believe, God or some other immaterial entity owns the other end.
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Old 1st May 2022, 03:07 PM   #61
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I know the thread didn't really have a true topic when it was created, but I feel it necessary to point out this post from earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
There's lots of biology that suggests that.

Robert Sapolsky: Brain Gender
Same as the quoted link, but in imbedded form
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


tl;dr: One's biological sex or gender is not limited to one or two physical traits.
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Old 1st May 2022, 03:34 PM   #62
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Transgenderism seems to be a different thing than the lgb group.
One is about being accepted for who you are and who you're attracted to, the other is about fitting into someone elses category and not being who you are. I don't know why they are lumped together.
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Old 1st May 2022, 04:43 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Transgenderism seems to be a different thing than the lgb group.
One is about being accepted for who you are and who you're attracted to, the other is about fitting into someone elses category and not being who you are. I don't know why they are lumped together.
It is all about being accepted for who you are. I've been in an LGBT community band for two decades now. (I just got my 20th anniversary pin. Yay me!)

If you think trans is about fitting into someone else's category and not being who you are, you have never talked with a trans person. A trans person presenting as cis is not being who they are inside and fitting into someone else's category, not their own.
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Old 1st May 2022, 06:12 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's the difference between wanting to lop off one's healthy leg, and wanting to lop off one's healthy penis? Both seem to be a perfectly reasonable and healthy solution, to someone struggling with their body identity.
I would like to add that this actually does serve to illustrate the conservatives' concerns. Or at least the concerns used as a rallying cry to get them huddled around the leadership.

If some 13 year old wanted to have a leg amputated, you'd think their parents, teachers and any school counsellor they might talk to, would at the very least say "wait until you're legally an adult, THEN you can make your decision." In fact, I'm pretty sure parents would be legally obligated to deny it.

But when a 13 year girl wanted to have her breasts lopped off, someone actually obliged. (Then it turned out she's actually unhappy with that when she's an adult.)

Now I'm not necessarily saying it's either good or bad, but that seems to be one of their objections that resulted in the "don't say gay" law.
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Old 1st May 2022, 06:14 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
tl;dr: One's biological sex or gender is not limited to one or two physical traits.
True, but then it also seems to be hard to be all that confident about diagnosing a brain wired like the opposite sex. Otherwise we wouldn't have as many 'detrans'. Yep, that's a thing.
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Old 1st May 2022, 06:22 PM   #66
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This has been said before, but it's worth repeating, especially as the person saying it this time is a trans person who actually carries out these "treatments" on children.

'Gender affirming' surgeon admits children who undergo transition before puberty NEVER attain sexual satisfaction

“An observation that I had," said Bowers, "every single child who was, or adolescent, who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2," which is the beginning of physical development, when hormones begin their work of advancing a child to adulthood, "has never experienced orgasm. I mean, it's really about zero."

Maybe the prospect not only of permanent sterility but of never being capable of sexual arousal is something children might be better to avoid until they have some actual idea of what it is they'd be giving up.

Oh, and there's no such thing as "a brain wired like the opposite sex". That's why it's so difficult to diagnose.
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Old 1st May 2022, 06:27 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
True, but then it also seems to be hard to be all that confident about diagnosing a brain wired like the opposite sex. Otherwise we wouldn't have as many 'detrans'. Yep, that's a thing.
Humans are complex and strange critters that donít nicely fit into boxes.
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Old 1st May 2022, 06:37 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh, and there's no such thing as "a brain wired like the opposite sex". That's why it's so difficult to diagnose.
I mean, on the one hand we have the word of a Stanford professor and neuroscience researcher. On the other hand, we have an anonymous forum posterís appeal to personal incredulity.

Whoís right? Tough call.
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Old 1st May 2022, 07:15 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh, and there's no such thing as "a brain wired like the opposite sex". That's why it's so difficult to diagnose.
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I mean, on the one hand we have the word of a Stanford professor and neuroscience researcher. On the other hand, we have an anonymous forum posterís appeal to personal incredulity.

Whoís right? Tough call.
Iím sorry, Rolfe. That wasnít fair of me.

On what basis are you drawing the conclusion that there can not be a neurological basis for transgenderism?
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Old 1st May 2022, 07:21 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Only if, as many of my contemporaries seemed to believe, God or some other immaterial entity owns the other end.
Well...subjectively, my wife has dibs on the business end of mine. She is not a God per se, but the abstract knowledge of her might constitute being an immaterial entity? In any event, the Lorena Bobbit treatment is my larger worry now. Free floating castration anxiety was bad enough, but the structural reality has been amplified a notch. Turned up to 11, as it were.
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Old 1st May 2022, 11:23 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well...subjectively, my wife has dibs on the business end of mine. She is not a God per se, but the abstract knowledge of her might constitute being an immaterial entity? In any event, the Lorena Bobbit treatment is my larger worry now. Free floating castration anxiety was bad enough, but the structural reality has been amplified a notch. Turned up to 11, as it were.
Point taken, but that's, shall we say, a voluntary concession, not a prior claim such as religion tends to assert.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 03:10 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Humans are complex and strange critters that donít nicely fit into boxes.
Yes, but my point is that basically for anything else we kinda make reasonably sure that a body part needs to be removed before removing it. Ditto for treatments that have long lasting effects. Like, we do a biopsy before we prescribe chemotherapy.

When it comes to gender dysphoria lately I'm not so sure any more. There are entirely too many people who want to 'detrans' or end up committing suicide.

In fact, I'm not even sure we know how to diagnose at all whether someone really thinks like the opposite sex, or they only wish they were the opposite sex. Other than a provable (as in, on an MRI) difference in wiring of the fight-or-flight reflex, there just isn't much of a descriptive (as opposed to prescriptive) difference between male thinking and female thinking. We have a lot of prescriptive stuff like men do this, and women do that, but that basically just boils down to toxic masculinity and respectively wishful thinking about what we'd like the women to be like. And it turns out that both can actually function just fine outside of those parameters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for letting people do wth they want as long as it harms no one else. If nothing else, I can always write someone who cut their balls off and then discovers it's not for them under "Darwin Award." But I can definitely see why one side of the aisle would want to go, "leave anything that has long lasting effects for after you're a legal adult."
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Old 2nd May 2022, 03:43 AM   #73
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Quote:
On what basis are you drawing the conclusion that there can not be a neurological basis for transgenderism?
That's quite a different matter from observing that there is no such thing as a "brain wired like the opposite sex. There may be a neurological basis for the disorder, I wouldn't exclude the possibility, but that ain't it.

This has been studied by far more people than one Stanford researcher. Findings of differences between transgender brains and normal brains have generally been attributable to the placstcity of the brain. If you study a man who has been "living as a woman" for some time, then the likelihood is that you are finding an effect, not a cause.

ETA: I'm with HansMunstermann here. I'm all for letting people do what they want so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. But this one is harming way too many other people. From women who are losing all their rights to single-sex spaces, protections and categories, to confused children and adolescents who are being groomed and brainwashed into irreversible mutilating surgeries that most of the adults who are pushing trans rights have no intention of undergoing.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 2nd May 2022 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 04:01 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
... that most of the adults who are pushing trans rights have no intention of undergoing.

I don't understand this argument: I am all for the rights of gay people to have gay sex, but I don't intend to participate. Does that make me a hypocrite? Are people who are 'pushing' trans rights hypocrites if they have no intention of changing their sex/gender? Can't people argue for racial equality without wanting to change their race/ethnicity?
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Old 2nd May 2022, 05:10 AM   #75
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You have misunderstood me, possibly because I was not entirely clear. I was referring to the late-transitioning men who are heading the transactivist movement, who have no intention of having any surgery and indeed intend to keep on using their male genitalia even while changing their pronouns and demanding access to all women's protected spaces.

These men claim trans status for themselves while having had no surgery, but at the same time they are at the forefront of the movement to persuade children and adolescents that they need to have mutilating surgery to be their "authentic selves".
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Old 2nd May 2022, 05:41 AM   #76
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OK, that's different than promoting rights. And it sounds grotesque. Why do they want to persuade them to have surgery? What is the motivation?
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Old 2nd May 2022, 05:59 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
These men claim trans status for themselves while having had no surgery, but at the same time they are at the forefront of the movement to persuade children and adolescents that they need to have mutilating surgery to be their "authentic selves".

Because nothing is more "authentic" than having your genitals fashioned into fake clams and wangs. What an insane society we live in.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 06:02 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK, that's different than promoting rights. And it sounds grotesque. Why do they want to persuade them to have surgery? What is the motivation?

It's complicated, but many people have written about it. There is a group of men who transitioned in middle age or even older, who are aggressive and entitled, and who are driving much of the current trans-activist movement. They want to promote the idea of an innate gender identity that is present from birth as the driver for transition, even though they themselves were ordinary boyish boys and not effeminate at that time.

Their motivation for transitioning is sexual, some might call it fetishistic. They don't want to acknowledge this though, and to that end promote the concept of the "trans child" because that glosses over any sexual motivation for transitioning. They also believe that if they had transitioned earlier they would look more feminine (they don't look at all feminine) and so they're keen to give "trans kids" something they didn't have.

People are strange. But there is a huge push to indoctrinate all children into the concept that anyone can be whickever sex they choose and if they choose the one they aren't then the doctors can fix it for them. This is hugely damaging to children who may be too young to have a firm grasp of what sex is in the first place, and then later as they approach that scary and unwelcome time of their lives that is puberty.

The people at the forefront of this campaign, and behind it, are largely late-transitioning men. Who have no intention of having surgery, and who describe themselves as lesbians and accuse lesbians who don't want to have sex with them (understandably, because they're men and lesbians don't want to have sex with men) as being "genital fetishists" and "transphobic".

It's a mess.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 2nd May 2022 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 06:05 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Because nothing is more "authentic" than having your genitals fashioned into fake clams and wangs. What an insane society we live in.

Well, that's one way of putting it and I'm not even disagreeing.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 06:32 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Because nothing is more "authentic" than having your genitals fashioned into fake clams and wangs. What an insane society we live in.
That's the part I don't get. If being a woman is an internal identification, then fine. That's what you are, regardless of anatomy. But if you want to reconfigure your body, you are pretty much acknowledging that it is a dysphoria gig, not an identification. Its a crossed wire.
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