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Old 5th May 2022, 08:53 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If men want to gain access to all women-only spaces and categories by claiming the identity of "woman" it's very difficult to see how they can prevent the opposite also happening.
Your argument can't be that when transgenderism isn't about oppressing women it's just a smoke screen put up to hide to make them oppressing women less obvious.

This is some "Sure sometimes the Ref makes calls against the other... but that's just to cover for the fact that they are biased against us!" leaps in logic here.

When someone acts like they don't have a specific motive you can't just go "Aha... that's exactly what someone who did have the motive would do to throw us off our tracks!"
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Old 5th May 2022, 08:57 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Because "I identify as a woman" allows dominant men to undermine all the advances made by these pesky women who won't know their place over the past hundred or so years. "I identify as a man" is a rather unfortunate side-effect they haven't quite managed to eliminate, but since they're perfectly capable of keeping any women who try to assert themselves as males in male company in their place, it doesn't matter too much.
Am I misunderstanding you? This reads like you think the trans-women are women crowd are in fact a rearguard conservative/trad movement that is gaming the system.
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Old 5th May 2022, 08:57 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your argument can't be that when transgenderism isn't about oppressing women it's just a smoke screen put up to hide to make them oppressing women less obvious.

This is some "Sure sometimes the Ref makes calls against the other... but that's just to cover for the fact that they are biased against us!" leaps in logic here.

When someone acts like they don't have a specific motive you can't just go "Aha... that's exactly what someone who did have the motive would do to throw us off our tracks!"

Whatever.
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Old 5th May 2022, 08:58 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Am I misunderstanding you? This reads like you think the trans-women are women crowd are in fact a rearguard conservative/trad movement that is gaming the system.

There's a large element of that about it.
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Old 5th May 2022, 08:59 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Whatever.
Time well spent.
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Old 5th May 2022, 09:52 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There's a large element of that about it.
I don't see it. I will think about it some more.
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Old 5th May 2022, 10:11 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but the elephant in the room is you could be anything in that and it would mean exactly the same, but we only do it with sex/gender not literally every other personal variable.

I get that it's the only joke/argument that the anti-trans side has ("Hardy Har I identity as a skinny person hardy har") and I hate that and am over it as much as anyone, but there's a valid point in there.

Why, in actual factual terms, is "I identity as male" and "I identify as taller" not the same thing?
Or, as probably more of an actual thing, "I identify as a cat." Plenty of girls seem to be into that these days. In fact, as I've been saying before, we may well be in the middle of a catgirl pandemic of anime proportions

Well, at least the wave of people identifying as attack helicopters seems to have died down recently. Presumably since these days we send military equipment to Ukraine

Come to think of it, I wonder if there are any in Russia these days, what with Ukraine getting MANPADs by the ton
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Old 5th May 2022, 10:15 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There's a large element of that about it.
I kind of feel like there is something about what you are describing that is interesting. You are coming from an understanding of the world too different from any that I have ever held for me to make sense of. Is there a particular author who explains it really well, or can you make it more concrete?
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Old 5th May 2022, 10:31 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your argument can't be that when transgenderism isn't about oppressing women it's just a smoke screen put up to hide to make them oppressing women less obvious.

This is some "Sure sometimes the Ref makes calls against the other... but that's just to cover for the fact that they are biased against us!" leaps in logic here.

When someone acts like they don't have a specific motive you can't just go "Aha... that's exactly what someone who did have the motive would do to throw us off our tracks!"
Well, I don't know about him, but my personal and subjective and utterly unscientific impression is that yes, SOME people are just using "pro-trans" as an excuse for "anti-woman."

It's hard not to get that impression when some people will rabidly support anything that puts women at risk (e.g., locking a biological woman in a prison cell with a biological male) or pushes them out of sports or whatever, but get downright hostile if you have any attention span left for anything else. I mean, even *I* got even called transphobe before -- and at that by someone who apparently never identified as a girl, never wore girls' clothes, etc; but felt entitled to lecture me about it anyway -- for as much as giving otherkin equal consideration, instead of just focusing on the stuff he wanted everyone to focus on. Incidentally, the only apparent common denominator being that it's stuff that denies women any safe spaces.

Also it's hard not to get the impression that the supposed pro-trans faction doesn't even seem to actually care what any trans actually want. As a quote from Lilah Sturges went:
So, while you’re watching the rhetorical soccer match that is the “trans conversation,” please keep in mind that trans people aren’t players in the game. We’re not even spectators. We’re the ball.

And it SUCKS.
And really, it's the best description I've ever seen. And it's hard to think that those people are really motivated by trying to help the trans, while not actually showing even the faintest interest in what the trans actually want or need.

It's like that joke about Johnny coming late to school and, when asked why he's late, he says "Oh, I helped an old lady across the street." So the teacher's like, "well, that's nice, but you're half an hour late." So Johny answers, "yeah, but she didn't want to."

So what DOES motivate these people? Well, for some it's probably just the fame of being the one who barks the loudest on Twitter. But, as I was saying, it's hard not to notice that some people's focus seems to include all that could fall equally well under 'anti-woman', and ONLY that.

Anyway, as I was saying, it's just a personal unscientific impression, but there we go.
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Old 5th May 2022, 10:47 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Because "I identify as a woman" allows dominant men to undermine all the advances made by these pesky women who won't know their place over the past hundred or so years. "I identify as a man" is a rather unfortunate side-effect they haven't quite managed to eliminate, but since they're perfectly capable of keeping any women who try to assert themselves as males in male company in their place, it doesn't matter too much.
I think I understand what you are asserting. Yet it occurs to me that proceeding from there your assertion makes my preference for the banning of women from male private spaces one that is "pro-women", or at the very least not an anti-women stance (as it would likely be painted by some taken in a vacuum)
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Old 5th May 2022, 11:19 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Also it's hard not to get the impression that the supposed pro-trans faction doesn't even seem to actually care what any trans actually want. As a quote from Lilah Sturges went:
So, while you’re watching the rhetorical soccer match that is the “trans conversation,” please keep in mind that trans people aren’t players in the game. We’re not even spectators. We’re the ball.

And it SUCKS.
Isn't this very often the case with such group representatives?
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Old 5th May 2022, 11:24 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I mean, even *I* got even called transphobe before --
Listen I've been in all these threads and watched all of the "I'm the most transgenderingest supportingest person evar all the rest of you are transphobe" types still not be pure enough for the one or two transgender people who actually stick their heads in the threads and it's been hilarious.

You can't simp hard enough to appease fanboys. And the worst thing the internet did was turn social justice into just another fandom.
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Old 5th May 2022, 12:27 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Or, as probably more of an actual thing, "I identify as a cat." Plenty of girls seem to be into that these days. In fact, as I've been saying before, we may well be in the middle of a catgirl pandemic of anime proportions

Well, at least the wave of people identifying as attack helicopters seems to have died down recently. Presumably since these days we send military equipment to Ukraine

Come to think of it, I wonder if there are any in Russia these days, what with Ukraine getting MANPADs by the ton
I feel like people going down that road is a "slippery slope" and straw man combined. It's unjustifiably pretending that to consider self-identified categories is inherently unmanageable. I should clarify that I'm not responding to be oppositional to you, just extending from something you've brought up.

It's the same argument that is used against same-sex marriage: "What's next, people marrying pets, teapots, the color blue?" Parody and irony have their usage, but that is when it's used to inform and reveal, rather than to obfuscate and disrupt discussion.

The straw man here is that activists propose: "Any self-identification of any kind should be accommodated by others." Which is silly of course and easily refuted. A productive discussion about making actual policy would be along the lines of:

- Is it a label they are self-applying to express themselves to others, or are they asking for a formal accommodation?
- If an accommodation is being asked, what exactly is it?
- Is it reasonable and practical?
- Does instituting this request burden other people's rights or bring unfair privilege?

These answers may change with context, so there's not just one single answer that can be used across the board. For example, allowing anyone to use the restroom they are most comfortable using hinges on very different issues than inclusivity in competitive sports.

It's lazy or disingenuous to pretend these questions don't have findable answers, or that the entire issue must have the same answer across the board, and that is exactly what the "Hurr hurr, I'm an attack helicopter then" people are doing.
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Old 5th May 2022, 12:29 PM   #174
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No but which "self identification" has to be accommodated can't just be random.

Why, an actual objective reason, has to be on the table somewhere.
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Old 5th May 2022, 12:37 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No but which "self identification" has to be accommodated can't just be random.

Why, an actual objective reason, has to be on the table somewhere.
I think there's a gradient there. If accommodation is trivial, a deep examination of the legitimacy and sincerity of the request is less important. And vice versa. But generally, yes. Policies that affect other people need reasons.
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Old 5th May 2022, 12:40 PM   #176
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This is why the "slippery slope" argument bugs me so much.

It's not just "I took your argument to the next step and made it look bad."

If I can make the same argument for something else and the only difference is that it's unpopular or distasteful but you can't verbalize any actual object reason why the argument doesn't work just as well on a logical or argumentative level... well then that's not a slippery slope.

This is why the anti-trans side keeps reverting back to snarky reference to just "identifying" as something else, but as mean spirited as that argument is it's really been addressed and "Well it makes my side look absurd" isn't an argument.
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Old 5th May 2022, 12:50 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is why the "slippery slope" argument bugs me so much.

It's not just "I took your argument to the next step and made it look bad."

If I can make the same argument for something else and the only difference is that it's unpopular or distasteful but you can't verbalize any actual object reason why the argument doesn't work just as well on a logical or argumentative level... well then that's not a slippery slope.

This is why the anti-trans side keeps reverting back to snarky reference to just "identifying" as something else, but as mean spirited as that argument is it's really been addressed and "Well it makes my side look absurd" isn't an argument.
I think most of the time those reasons are able to be verbalized among those that are serious, at least more often than the snarkers admit.
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Old 5th May 2022, 01:23 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Isn't this very often the case with such group representatives?
Very much so, indeed.
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Old 5th May 2022, 01:34 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I feel like people going down that road is a "slippery slope" and straw man combined.
Who said it's either?


1. I'm actually pretty convinced that otherkin are a thing. I may joke about it, but I'm actually very much convinced it does exist.

In fact, I've actually seen it happen from the animal side too. Long story short, my parents had a white cat which I had picked when she was a tiny kitten. Like, all her life she was among only humans. So, anyway, she was unusual in some ways, so instead of getting her snipped, my parents figure out they want kittens with those genetics. Turns out that when she went into heat, the furry little thing went ass up and yodelling at me, my brother and dad, but beat the CRAP out of any actual tomcat they brought her.

Pretty sure she identified as a human. Well, in as much as it applies to a cat. I don't think she was smart enough to fake it, nor is it obvious what would be the end goal for faking it. I mean, cats are smart, but there are limits.


2. And I don't remember saying it's a slippery slope. There is no slope, slippery or otherwise. It's all flat. THAT is what I'm saying.
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Old 5th May 2022, 01:39 PM   #180
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Also not to be a dick but it's not like we've never been here before.

I distinctly remember back in the 80s and 90s when it was just about overturning sodomy laws that made the act of gay sex literally illegal someone would go "Oh so what's next, gays getting married" and someone else would go "Oh that's a strawman, nobody is suggesting that, we're just saying it shouldn't be illegal to have gay sex." Like that discussion happened. A lot.

And back then it felt super-disingenuous to me because one argument logically lead to the next. It wasn't a strawman or a slippery slope.

This is why the Left so often treating "tolerance" as end goal bugs the hell out of me because that's not how things work. "Tolerance" is a stop gap that can't work forever, it either evolves into acceptance or it collapses.

"Just tolerate this, we will never ask you to accept it" is not how any of this will ever work.
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Old 5th May 2022, 01:44 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think most of the time those reasons are able to be verbalized among those that are serious, at least more often than the snarkers admit.
I hope you realize that unless you actually present them, what you're doing is literally the lay version of the "Sophisticated Theology" fallacy. You know, where you just postulate that some perfectly reasonable and consistent argument for it or explaining it exists... err... somewhere... and somehow it's the disbelievers' burden to find it.

Sorry, logic doesn't work that way. IF you wish to defend a conclusion, then you actually have to show how it works. You don't just get to be right just because you postulate that some argument exists that makes you right.

In fact, even as fallacies go, it's particularly weak sauce. It's two notches weaker sauce than even an appeal to authority, since that one can actually tell you 1. WHAT was actually said, and 2. WHO actually said it. Whereas the sophisticated theology one just postulates that it must exist... err... in some form... err... somewhere... err... by someone.
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Old 5th May 2022, 01:53 PM   #182
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@JoeMorgue
Maybe, but as you've said yourself, we don't need a slippery slope argument to make a case whether something is true or false or just unsupported.

It doesn't actually depend on otherkin being NEXT on anyone's list, and it works just as well even if catgirls never actually get accepted or tolerated. It's a direct comparison right here and now. What is the relevant difference between X and Y that makes "Alice feels like X => Alice IS X" valid, while "Bob feels like Y => Bob IS Y" is invalid, or viceversa? Nothing there relies on X or Y being next to be accepted, or even being accepted right now, or anything.

If the only difference is "because I'm trying to get only one of them accepted, but not the other" then that's rather irrelevant, isn't it?
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Old 5th May 2022, 02:16 PM   #183
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It's not about a slippery slope. That's Joe's red herring. It's about whether gender dysphoria is more like otherkin identity or more like bodily integrity identity disorder and factitious disorder.

We already know it's not much like homosexuality at all.
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Old 5th May 2022, 03:09 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's exactly the point. A man has no more idea of how it feels to be a woman than I have of how it feels to be a hamster. Or a man, come to that.
theprestige was talking about male and female, your reply switched it to man woman, interesting.
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Old 5th May 2022, 03:21 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
theprestige was talking about male and female, your reply switched it to man woman, interesting.
"I'm 6 foot 5."
"No you're 5 foot 8."
"No you see 5 foot 8 is my height, but 6 foot 5 is my zorlack."
"What's a zorlack?"
"It's my personal tallness of body heigh identity."
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Old 5th May 2022, 03:39 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
theprestige was talking about male and female, your reply switched it to man woman, interesting.
Eh. It was interesting to me a couple years back, when I was still debating through some of these questions and working out my answers to them. Nowadays, not so much.

My view is that the onus is on the trans-activists, to explain what they mean by "man" and "woman", in terms of settled science, "valid lived conditions", public policy, etc. And since it's abundantly clear that they can't, and have no intention of trying, I'm content to keep using the terms in the traditional way.

Last time I checked, Rolfe is an "adult human" hardliner, which suits my view and usage just fine. To you it's interesting because you're still thinking it through for yourself, and are still getting bamboozled by all the gender-identity flimflam being peddled here and there.
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Old 5th May 2022, 06:14 PM   #187
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Polka has previously tried to base an argument on there being some difference between "female" and "woman" in the context of adult human beings. Everything would be fine if we would only make a distinction there! In fact, he wants to assert that there is such a distinction and parse everyone else's language as if they signed up to the distinction he has invented.

Two problems. One is that women are not inclined to relinquish the word that has meant "adult human female" since the language emerged from Anglo-Saxon, and the other is that the trans-activists are now claiming that men are "female" too.
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Old 5th May 2022, 06:14 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Who said it's either?


1. I'm actually pretty convinced that otherkin are a thing. I may joke about it, but I'm actually very much convinced it does exist.

In fact, I've actually seen it happen from the animal side too. Long story short, my parents had a white cat which I had picked when she was a tiny kitten. Like, all her life she was among only humans. So, anyway, she was unusual in some ways, so instead of getting her snipped, my parents figure out they want kittens with those genetics. Turns out that when she went into heat, the furry little thing went ass up and yodelling at me, my brother and dad, but beat the CRAP out of any actual tomcat they brought her.

Pretty sure she identified as a human. Well, in as much as it applies to a cat. I don't think she was smart enough to fake it, nor is it obvious what would be the end goal for faking it. I mean, cats are smart, but there are limits.


2. And I don't remember saying it's a slippery slope. There is no slope, slippery or otherwise. It's all flat. THAT is what I'm saying.
You didn't say that. Just to make it extra clear I wasn't trying to dispute you.
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Old 5th May 2022, 06:18 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I distinctly remember back in the 80s and 90s when it was just about overturning sodomy laws that made the act of gay sex literally illegal someone would go "Oh so what's next, gays getting married" and someone else would go "Oh that's a strawman, nobody is suggesting that, we're just saying it shouldn't be illegal to have gay sex." Like that discussion happened. A lot.
Did it? In my recollection at the same time, those that advocated for homosexual rights were quite open that they believed marriage should be allowed. I'm not going to contradict your personal experience, but if you are arguing that was a typical claim among advocates I think we need to look at a broader sample.
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Old 5th May 2022, 06:23 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Did it? In my recollection at the same time, those that advocated for homosexual rights were quite open that they believed marriage should be allowed. I'm not going to contradict your personal experience, but if you are arguing that was a typical claim among advocates I think we need to look at a broader sample.
Not that it matters, seeing as how gender dysphoria and autogynaephilia have nothing in common with homosexuality, in this context.
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Old 5th May 2022, 07:54 PM   #191
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Well, homosexuality does serve to illustrate something I'm talking about. Basically if you unwrap the logic proposition, it goes something like this:

P1: I believe P2 to be true.
P2: I feel/think/whatever like an X.
Therefore
C: I am an X.

P1 is important there because although the argument only goes P2=>C, it establishes the degree to which you know P2 to actually be true. I.e., if you can reach that conclusion in a SOUND way.


For homosexuality it's quite straightforward.

SOUNDNESS of premises: You know what is the relevant part of feeling like the gays. If you feel sexual attraction towards the same sex (or someone/something looking like that) and none or even repulsion towards the opposite sex (or someone/something looking like that), that's what a gay person feels. By definition. So you can actually determine if P2 is actually true.

VALIDITY of P2=>C: well, if you feel that, you are by definition gay, so that's easy. In fact, it's an equivalence.


Now let's apply the same to "I think I feel/think/whatever like a cat" (or indeed like an attack hellicopter.) Well...

- I have no real idea what a cat actually thinks or feels. In fact, most people GROSSLY misunderstand even overt behaviours of their pet. What's in the cat's head? Your guess is as good as mine. Probably better if you're sober. But basically I have no idea if that "I feel/think/whatever like a cat" is actually true.

- Even if coincidentally it were true that I think like a cat, in the literal sense, what does that mean? Does that actually make me a cat? In what sense? The validity of going from there to "therefore I AM a cat" is a lot less clear than for being gay.


And that brings us around to the trans. What actually does it mean to think and feel like a woman? How would I even know?

I mean, we can asks stuff like "did you like to play with dolls?" vs "did you like to play with toy cars?" but that's based on prescriptive ideas of what a Real Man (or the larva thereof) is supposed to be interested in. It turns out for example that if you call them action figures or Transformers and the parents and other kids say it's ok, you can like playing with dolls as a boy too. Or it turns out that a LOT of males liked to play with the virtual doll-house that is The Sims.

We don't actually know if any of that is actually indicating female wiring, or even what the female wiring would actually do when it comes to thought patterns.

And what does it even mean to go from there to the "therefore I am a woman"? In what sense?
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Old 6th May 2022, 12:17 AM   #192
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Do you recall that Dave Chappelle special? You know the one.

If I was a trans person I would immediately have counted him as an ally. Problematic ally, sure but still an ally.

Why? Because he makes a key point. His trans gender friend says "I want you to acknowledge that I am having an experience"

That is important because the party line from the gendercrit activists is always the opposite.

It is always something like "it is a fad,", "They are doing it to oppress women", "They are doing it in an evil conspiracy to commit genocide on gays", "It is a conspiracy by Soros et al to gain more power" and so on.
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Old 6th May 2022, 04:27 AM   #193
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I don't think it's as simple as that. I don't see anyone denying that trans-identifying people are having a real experience, whether it's autogynaephilia driving it, or extreme homosexuality pushing them to adopt a feminine persona, or adolescents running screaming from the prospect of going through puberty and having an adult, sexed body.

The "they are doing it to oppress women" part comes at a slightly later stage, mainly driven by the autogynaephile contingent (many of whom really hate women), and by men's rights activists who latch on as "allies" and lecture women about being kind and submissive and giving males everything they want.
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Old 6th May 2022, 04:34 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The "they are doing it to oppress women" part comes at a slightly later stage, mainly driven by the autogynaephile contingent (many of whom really hate women), and by men's rights activists who latch on as "allies" and lecture women about being kind and submissive and giving males everything they want.
Which men's rights activists do this?
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Old 6th May 2022, 05:00 AM   #195
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Well, I don't know about autogynaephilia or whatnot. (Though it sounds like I'll need to change my insults; sounds like some people might actually like to go <bleep> themselves)

As I was saying, from my experience the most rabid pushers of the most extreme (or even extremist) 'pro-trans' positions aren't even trans, don't identify as the opposite sex, never cross-dressed, never experienced any real gender dysphoria (unsurprisingly since the prevalence is very low even among the trans), etc. Or at least won't admit it when you ask them. As that quote went, they're just looking to score some points using the trans as the ball they kick around in that game.

It's, if you will, like when a bunch of white Anglo-Saxon folks started to fight for the right of the Latin Americans to be called Latinx. Something no actual Latin American had actually asked for, and a lot of actual Latin Americans actually found offensive. Just some "progressives" (and imagine me doing some very conspicuous Dr Evil style air quotes around "progressives") were looking for the next points to score for fighting on someone else's behalf, and didn't even care or bother checking if that's what that someone else actually wants.

Basically see my joke about Johnny helping an old lady across the road, really.

It's IMHO hard to blame it on anything a trans might actually experience, or see a reason to look for trans-related explanations, when those guys aren't actually trans.
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Old 6th May 2022, 01:04 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Polka has previously tried to base an argument on there being some difference between "female" and "woman" in the context of adult human beings. Everything would be fine if we would only make a distinction there! In fact, he wants to assert that there is such a distinction and parse everyone else's language as if they signed up to the distinction he has invented.

Two problems. One is that women are not inclined to relinquish the word that has meant "adult human female" since the language emerged from Anglo-Saxon, and the other is that the trans-activists are now claiming that men are "female" too.
I feel I haven't made myself clear.

sex is sex, males can't become females and females can't become males.

Man/woman seems to be labels for gender in modern day society. Lot's of people react against those gender labels. some people fixate on those gender labels. It causes problems constantly.

I think defining yourself by gender will cause more problems than it solves.

Just be yourself.
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Old 6th May 2022, 01:08 PM   #197
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Again the whole bit where sex and gender are two separate things with gender basically meaning "my genital's otherkin persona" is a massive retcon.

The terms were 100% interchangeable linguistly until sex researchers starting using them separately in around the 60s or so.
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Old 6th May 2022, 01:23 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again the whole bit where sex and gender are two separate things with gender basically meaning "my genital's otherkin persona" is a massive retcon.

The terms were 100% interchangeable linguistly until sex researchers starting using them separately in around the 60s or so.
learning more about a thing and creating new words to describe that thing is how we got to where we are now, it's how learning works.

edit:
I feel gender is separate from sex because it obviously is, open your eyes.
hmm snow patrol.

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Old 6th May 2022, 01:29 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I feel I haven't made myself clear.

sex is sex, males can't become females and females can't become males.

Man/woman seems to be labels for gender in modern day society. Lot's of people react against those gender labels. some people fixate on those gender labels. It causes problems constantly.

I think defining yourself by gender will cause more problems than it solves.

Just be yourself.

"Seems to be." No they bloody well aren't, and you can stop parsing other people's words as if they're adhering to your insane "seems to be" system.
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Old 6th May 2022, 02:27 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
"Seems to be." No they bloody well aren't, and you can stop parsing other people's words as if they're adhering to your insane "seems to be" system.
Are you saying man/woman are not labels for gender in modern day society?

That's incorrect, they obviously are.

edit:
I've still got the mental scarring from when my basil brush teddy mysteriously disappeared when I was 8! Yet my older sister had teddys into teenagerhood.

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