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Old 6th May 2022, 02:51 PM   #201
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Of course they aren't. You seem to live in a very strange wee woke bubble if you think they are.
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Old 6th May 2022, 03:07 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Are you saying man/woman are not labels for gender in modern day society?

That's incorrect, they obviously are.
I'm sick and tired of this semantic rabbit hole. This argument has been had already, many times over. Its various points have been raised and addressed, more than once.

In this thread: Unless you're prepared to argue from man/woman as gender labels to some conclusion about different attitudes about homosexual and transgender individuals, give it a rest.

(In the other thread: Unless you're repared to argue from man/woman as gender labels to some conclusion about what rights transgender folks should have in public policy, give it a rest.)
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Old 6th May 2022, 03:26 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm sick and tired of this semantic rabbit hole. This argument has been had already, many times over. Its various points have been raised and addressed, more than once.

In this thread: Unless you're prepared to argue from man/woman as gender labels to some conclusion about different attitudes about homosexual and transgender individuals, give it a rest.
Ok, gay/bi people tend to ignore rules about gender roles and what not, transgender people conversely, are trying to fit in to them. There's a clear difference in the objective.

Last edited by p0lka; 6th May 2022 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 6th May 2022, 04:56 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Which men's rights activists do this?
Incels. I'm not sure I see a connection between them and transgender issues though.
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Old 6th May 2022, 05:09 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, homosexuality does serve to illustrate something I'm talking about. Basically if you unwrap the logic proposition, it goes something like this:

P1: I believe P2 to be true.
P2: I feel/think/whatever like an X.
Therefore
C: I am an X.

P1 is important there because although the argument only goes P2=>C, it establishes the degree to which you know P2 to actually be true. I.e., if you can reach that conclusion in a SOUND way.


For homosexuality it's quite straightforward.

SOUNDNESS of premises: You know what is the relevant part of feeling like the gays. If you feel sexual attraction towards the same sex (or someone/something looking like that) and none or even repulsion towards the opposite sex (or someone/something looking like that), that's what a gay person feels. By definition. So you can actually determine if P2 is actually true.

VALIDITY of P2=>C: well, if you feel that, you are by definition gay, so that's easy. In fact, it's an equivalence.


Now let's apply the same to "I think I feel/think/whatever like a cat" (or indeed like an attack hellicopter.) Well...

- I have no real idea what a cat actually thinks or feels. In fact, most people GROSSLY misunderstand even overt behaviours of their pet. What's in the cat's head? Your guess is as good as mine. Probably better if you're sober. But basically I have no idea if that "I feel/think/whatever like a cat" is actually true.

- Even if coincidentally it were true that I think like a cat, in the literal sense, what does that mean? Does that actually make me a cat? In what sense? The validity of going from there to "therefore I AM a cat" is a lot less clear than for being gay.


And that brings us around to the trans. What actually does it mean to think and feel like a woman? How would I even know?

I mean, we can asks stuff like "did you like to play with dolls?" vs "did you like to play with toy cars?" but that's based on prescriptive ideas of what a Real Man (or the larva thereof) is supposed to be interested in. It turns out for example that if you call them action figures or Transformers and the parents and other kids say it's ok, you can like playing with dolls as a boy too. Or it turns out that a LOT of males liked to play with the virtual doll-house that is The Sims.

We don't actually know if any of that is actually indicating female wiring, or even what the female wiring would actually do when it comes to thought patterns.

And what does it even mean to go from there to the "therefore I am a woman"? In what sense?
There's nothing wrong with your logic on this, as far as it goes.
The statement "I feel like X" is untestable and cannot be proven true. But neither can it be proven false. So tthe argument, from either direction is of little worth.

It's a valid point that the fact that sexual attraction can be objectively be determined and trans genderism cannot. However, it does not follow that the fact that it cannot be verified means it is false or can be dismissed.

I'm male..a man. I know how I feel. I don't know how thePrestige feels or if his feeling of being a "man" is the same as mine. Neither do I know how Elliot Pager feels. I can's say she feels the same as I or any other man, but neither can I say she doesn't.
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Old 7th May 2022, 01:47 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
learning more about a thing and creating new words to describe that thing is how we got to where we are now, it's how learning works.

edit:
I feel gender is separate from sex because it obviously is, open your eyes.
hmm snow patrol.
They didn't create new words.
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Old 7th May 2022, 01:51 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Incels. I'm not sure I see a connection between them and transgender issues though.
I'm not sure that incels are a type of men's rights activist. That would be like hand waving referring to feminists only for it to turn out one means elderly wiccans who have far too many cats and smell faintly of urine.
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Old 7th May 2022, 03:15 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not sure that incels are a type of men's rights activist. That would be like hand waving referring to feminists only for it to turn out one means elderly wiccans who have far too many cats and smell faintly of urine.
Not sure I follow. There are many types of feminists. Self-identified feminists run the whole gamut from the classic "we want equal rights" to "kill all men" trolls on Twitter. Or from the mainstream "I'll dress how I want, thank you very much; studies show that even wearing a literal burqa doesn't actually reduce some men's acting like idiots" to a repackaged conservative "OMG, you can't have women looking too sexy or even pretty (e.g., in movies or animation), because it will make men disrespect us all!!!"

The same applies to men's rights activists. The gamut runs from, well, slightly less deranged to incels.

In fact, I don't even see how your analogy is even an analogy. Incels actually think they should have more rights (read: privileges) over women, whereas an old cat lady may or may not actually even have any interest in women's rights.
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Old 7th May 2022, 03:37 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
There's nothing wrong with your logic on this, as far as it goes.
The statement "I feel like X" is untestable and cannot be proven true. But neither can it be proven false. So tthe argument, from either direction is of little worth.
No it isn't. In logic, "yeah, but you can't disprove <insert positive claim>" is a textbook fallacy. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. Nobody has the burden to prove it false. If you can't show it to be true, then they can just revert to the null position that it's false.

Plus, generally, a statement is utterly worthless if it fundamentally can't be tested. As in, in this case, not even by the one making the claim.

Which ties in with why I mentioned logical soundness there. If you can't show premise X to be true, then "X=>Y" is utterly worthless even if it were valid. Basically there's a reason why "if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike" is a joke. You can't actually conclude she IS a bike, unless you first show that she does have wheels.

Originally Posted by TomB View Post
It's a valid point that the fact that sexual attraction can be objectively be determined and trans genderism cannot. However, it does not follow that the fact that it cannot be verified means it is false or can be dismissed.
Actually I'm saying quite literally that ANY statement that can't be supported, CAN be summarily dismissed and actually SHOULD be dismissed if anything hinges on it. Whether it's "I'm in telepathic contact with an alien from the Andromeda galaxy" or "I'm actually wired to think and feel exactly like a woman."

At the end of the day all that can be supported is that some people wish they were a woman or like to pretend they're one. I know I did. And, sure, we can accommodate that as long as it harms no one else. In fact, I firmly believe we should, same as with anything that harms no one else. But that's about it.

But wishing something doesn't make it true.

In fact, I can use homosexuality for that point again. I can go, "I Wish I Was Queer So I Could Get Chicks" like in the Bloodhound Gang song all I want. If I don't actually get any sexual attraction towards manly men, then, sadly, I'm not. And no amount of wishing will make it true.

Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I'm male..a man. I know how I feel. I don't know how thePrestige feels or if his feeling of being a "man" is the same as mine. Neither do I know how Elliot Pager feels. I can's say she feels the same as I or any other man, but neither can I say she doesn't.
Yes, but as I was saying, the burden is not on you to prove a negative. You're under no obligation to accept it or any conclusion based on it anyway.

You can still accept a request based on other considerations -- including for example it not being worth fighting about -- but that's about it.
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Old 7th May 2022, 05:30 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not sure I follow. There are many types of feminists. Self-identified feminists run the whole gamut from the classic "we want equal rights" to "kill all men" trolls on Twitter. Or from the mainstream "I'll dress how I want, thank you very much; studies show that even wearing a literal burqa doesn't actually reduce some men's acting like idiots" to a repackaged conservative "OMG, you can't have women looking too sexy or even pretty (e.g., in movies or animation), because it will make men disrespect us all!!!"

The same applies to men's rights activists. The gamut runs from, well, slightly less deranged to incels.

In fact, I don't even see how your analogy is even an analogy. Incels actually think they should have more rights (read: privileges) over women, whereas an old cat lady may or may not actually even have any interest in women's rights.
Incel is no more a type of men's rights activists than crazy cat lady is a type of feminist activist.
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Old 7th May 2022, 05:42 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
There's nothing wrong with your logic on this, as far as it goes.
The statement "I feel like X" is untestable and cannot be proven true. But neither can it be proven false. So tthe argument, from either direction is of little worth.
I think it's got a lot of worth, from both directions.

"I feel like X" isn't just an inconsequential statement of personal opinion. It's the basis for demands of social acceptance, entitlement to certain privileges, changes to public policy, and other gains made at the expense of others.

So the argument that the claim is untestable, that it cannot be proven true, and that therefore the null hypothesis should hold, has a lot of worth. Especially to the people who will lose something if the claim is assumed to be true.

And note here how different is the claim, "I feel like a woman" from the claim "I feel attracted to women". The latter is testable, and also far less consequential. You find a consenting woman, and do women-attracted stuff with her in the privacy of your bedroom, nobody gets hurt. Nobody loses out. Nobody is expected to do anything except leave you alone with your consenting partner to decide amongst yourselves whether it's true or not. Public policy is asked to change in no other way except to leave you alone to do what you want with consenting adults in the privacy of your bedroom.*

The argument also has some worth (not as much, but some) from the other direction. Since it's not testable, the claimant can attempt to occupy the moral high ground, saying you can't prove it's not true, and therefore you are obliged to act as if it were.

---
*I'm not going to get into gay marriage, except to say that it does not substantively contradict my argument.
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Old 7th May 2022, 06:11 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Incel is no more a type of men's rights activists than crazy cat lady is a type of feminist activist.
Maybe that used to be the case back in the '90s. Nowadays, regardless of what words the abbreviation may come from, and what is their technical meaning, almost everyone you'll ever find actually identifying as such online is actually very much thinking they're oppressed -- i.e., someone else has rights or privileges over them, or someone (or society as a whole) is denying them some rights, or such -- and quite often rather extremist in how they think they should get those rights back.

Basically thinking it still just means what you combine "involuntary" and "celibate" is like thinking you don't get a dangerous ideology when you combine "national" and "socialist". Or thinking that you totally can't extrapolate that anyone actually identifying themselves with that word combination isn't also meaning that ideology
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Old 7th May 2022, 09:23 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Incel is no more a type of men's rights activists than crazy cat lady is a type of feminist activist.
I never heard of a crazy cat lady supporting mass murder, rape, and misandry.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:11 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If people were just left to themselves, the first thing they'd do is invent gender roles. How do you think we got gender roles in the first place?
Mmm... nuance is needed here.

Yes, we have sex-based roles. Almost all mammals do. Although not a hard rule, in general, the degree of sex-differentiation in roles is correlated with the degree of sexual dimorphism in the species. Humans have a LOT of dimorphism. It's in part driven by the very long gestational period, and the very long period of child-rearing post gestation before offspring can be treated as independent. For most mammals, that dependency period, including gestation, is less than a year. For some, it's two to three years. For a few, it's on the order of five years. For humans, it's more like 15 years historically, and bumping up on 20 years currently. That's a LOT of investment in the survival of offspring.

Throughout time, a huge amount of that care has been delivered by female humans. But not exclusively, and it varies by culture. So at least some of the sex-based roles we have in place are a social construct. But some of it isn't. Even if we socially shifted so that males took on a larger portion of the child care duties overall... Females still have to do the gestation, the delivery, and the nursing. That's a couple of years worth of dedicated sex-based work.

So at the end of the day, of course some degree of sex-based roles are going to exist for humans, just as they do for other mammals.

On the other hand... there's a lot of sex-based roles in society that can't clearly be explained by evolutionary pressures. Males as firefighters? Sure, sexual dimorphism means males are larger and stronger, so it makes sense. Males as college professors for a huge swath of history? Not so much sense. Females as preschool child caregivers? Sure, females are a bit more wired for early development care. Females as nurses and not doctors? Nope, no good reason.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:15 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If that was the case then the human brain must be gendered.
I disagree.

For consideration, we know very well that we can breed dogs for different behavioral tendencies. Generally speaking, terriers will dig and d will herd. Training makes those tendencies useful... but the tendencies are part of the breeds themselves.

But I don't think we would say that dog brains are "breeded".

There are certainly some instincts and some behavioral tendencies that are sex-differentiated in humans. But they aren't black and white. In fact, they're so fuzzy that they are not at all predictive. A neurologist cannot look at a person's brain and determine whether that person is male or female.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:18 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
According to my hypothesis transexuals and trans gender people will always be a thing because gender roles are a matter of hardwiring and part and parcel of the general hardwiring for social interactions.

If that is wrong and gender roles have nothing to do with hardwired brain structure then there would be no reason at all to suppose that transexuals will always be a thing.
I think it depends on what definition of transsexual you are using. If you're talking about historical transsexuals as people with severe dysphoria about their sexed bodies, then there's some evidence to suggest that they would continue to exist. There is some research that demonstrates a measurable anomaly in the part of the brain responsible for self-perception and proprioception in people who have displayed long-term persistent and consistent transsexuality.

If, however, you're using the much broader current definition of "transgender" that has an umbrella that encompasses everyone except literal Barbie and literal GI Joe... then I don't think that would be a thing.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:22 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Are you suggesting that all these bizarre and arbitrary rules about what we should and shouldn't do as men and women are a rational response to the differences in men and women's bodies?
Some of them are most certainly related to those physical differences. Sexual dimorphism and the unequal burden of reproduction result in social role differences among the majority of sexually reproductive species.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:24 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Except when it isn't, of course...
Okay. In the 0.015% of humans with CCSDs, we'll make special exceptions to the rules. But let's go ahead right now and acknowledge that those very, very rare cases of congenital conditions that cause ambiguous sexual features has absolutely nothing at all to do with people who identify as transgender.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:31 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Yes. We don't let kids join the Army. We don't let them drink alcohol. Those are things that any adult has the right to do (not that the Army is obliged to accept them), but that doesn't mean we have to let kids do it.


No. See above.


Consent and legal age extends to anyone involved. And even if you're just seeing it, you're involved. You have the right to not see anyone ******* on the sidewalk, even if they're a monogamous, married heterosexual couple. And there are already laws about public urination, even if it's only because someone drank four cups of coffee, and not because it's their kink.


Why the **** would anyone teach that to 2nd graders? Would you object to 2nd graders being taught that some of their monogamous, heterosexual parents enjoy doggy-style most, while others prefer missionary position? If there's no reason to teach 2nd graders about the sexual practices of even the most conservative couples, why would you expect anyone to teach them about the kinkier stuff?

The idea of a black person and a white person getting married was once considered scandalous. The way a 2nd grade curriculum might introduce the subject is with an illustrated short story about a child whose parents just happen to be depicted as "mixed race". The protest that a teacher might stand before a class and say "This is a story about a white man named Brian and a black woman named Claire. And here's a list of their favorite sexual positions and turn-ons..." is just ridiculously histrionic.
Would you like an opportunity to refine your prior post, to which I had responded?

You don't seem to have a problem denying the right of self-determination to children. You seem perfectly fine with not allowing children to join the army or to drink alcohol. And yet you are opposed to laws that don't allow children to consent to the amputation of their healthy body parts, and that don't allow children to consent to drug therapies that are not necessary for an immediate health condition, and which cause irreversible damage to the healthy function of their bodies.

If you don't think kids should be legally allowed to drink alcohol, why on earth would you be okay with kids cutting of their breasts?

You don't seem to support teaching sexuality to young children. Why would you be opposed to a law that prohibits the teaching of sexuality to young children?
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:34 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
For those that vehemently raise concerns about that sort of thing, I think most of them are in two groups:

1 - People who know better but find it to be useful propaganda.

2 - People who don't honestly grasp queer identities. I think they often lump it together into sexual deviance, consider it something people do to get freaky or get attention or satisfy weird kinks, which many will say fine for adults, whatever, it's a free country, but become scandalized that kids might learn about it in school. Not much understanding of the idea that it has real significance for romantic relationships and non-sexual behavior, because they don't see how opposite-sex attractions and comfort with one's assigned-at-birth gender is one of a variety of possibilities. It's part of the background reality to them, and they think acting otherwise is a denial of reality, a game being played.

I don't mean to exclude anyone if they have a different point of view, so clearly these are not exhaustive. They just seem to fit most of the loudest voices.
3. People who don't have any problems with homosexuality or with how people prefer to present in society... but who also understand that young children don't have stable identities in the first place, and don't really grasp the reality of their sexed bodies... so telling young kids that they can change sex if they want to is lying to them and should probably be a topic for pubescent children where identity-formation and sexuality are a natural part of their development.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:42 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
As usual, ... ignore the existence of trans men.
Not really. Autogynephilia is a male paraphilia. While autoandrophilia is hypothetically possible... it hasn't ever been observed. The entire class of transvestic paraphilia is an almost exclusively male disorder.

Throughout history, looking at cultures and eras with very strict dress expectations for males and females, we have observed very different motivations.

If a male is attracted to females, and they are a cross-dresser, they are almost 100% cross-dressing for sexual titillation and pleasure.

If a male is attracted to males and cross-dresses, it's almost always motivated by either dysphoria or a desire to be attractive to males (or both).

If a female is attracted to females and cross-dresses as a male, it's very similar to the motivation for a homosexual male cross-dresser - dysphoria and/or a desire to be more attractive to females.

If a female is attracted to males, however, the motivation ends up being a) to gain access to parts of society that are denied to females or b) to escape the constraints and treatment that females are exposed to... or a combination of those two.

A significant number of transmen are fleeing womanhood like a house on fire. They aren't doing it for sexual titillation and arousal.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:44 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And I can imagine very easily how that might feel, as it could well have happened to me if I'd been born several decades later than I was.
I'm pretty certain that if I'd been a teen in the last five years, I'd have been convinced I was trans.

I wasn't. I was a fairly normal female who thought gender roles and sex-based behavioral expectations were horse-bollocks.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:49 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Yes I am autistic, but I don't have Asperger's Syndrome.
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Actually many people on the Spectrum are excellent at reading social cues. Just because something is learned rather than innate doesn't necessarily mean someone will be bad at it.
True. ASD runs in my family. I figure there's a reasonable chance I'm on the high-functioning end of the spectrum... I have two male cousins who are functional autistic. Both of them did a fair bit of therapy as youngsters to learn to read those non-verbal cues, and they're both quite good at it. Though not particularly good at it when it's only written words.
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Old 9th May 2022, 01:58 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but the elephant in the room is you could be anything in that and it would mean exactly the same, but we only do it with sex/gender not literally every other personal variable.

I get that it's the only joke/argument that the anti-trans side has ("Hardy Har I identity as a skinny person hardy har") and I hate that and am over it as much as anyone, but there's a valid point in there.

Why, in actual factual terms, is "I identity as male" and "I identify as taller" not the same thing?
There's a complication in the concept beyond just that. On one hand, there's certainly the existence of self-perception errors of the brain (brains are great liars). On the other hand, there's a complete inability to evaluate a claimed identity.

I'm short. But my mental perception of myself - the internal concept of self that my brain built - is about four inches taller than I actually am. As a result of that self-perception error, my proprioception frequently glitches... and I end up being surprised that I can't reach the top shelf. It doesn't matter that it happens every other day in my kitchen - I still end up surprised, because my brain is a ******* liar about my height.

I could say that I "identify" as 5'6". But nobody else could determine whether I'm being honest of having a go. Because at the end of the day, I am objectively, measurably, observably 5'2".

In a whole lot of cases, my brain being a liar is irrelevant. Nobody else in the world cares if I feel taller than I actually am. It affects nothing if I feel taller, and I think of myself as taller. It affects only me and my own disappointment when those really nice trousers drag on the floor.

When it is relevant, however, is when "You must be this tall to ride this rollercoaster"... and at that point, my identity as a normal-height female never seems to convince the folks at the gate to let me on anyway.
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Old 9th May 2022, 02:02 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Am I misunderstanding you? This reads like you think the trans-women are women crowd are in fact a rearguard conservative/trad movement that is gaming the system.
Conservative... no, not so much that. Patriarchal and sometimes misogynistic, yes. Not all transsexuals, but many.
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Old 9th May 2022, 02:14 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Okay. In the 0.015% of humans with CCSDs, we'll make special exceptions to the rules. But let's go ahead right now and acknowledge that those very, very rare cases of congenital conditions that cause ambiguous sexual features has absolutely nothing at all to do with people who identify as transgender.

Not even there. Every single person who has a DSD is either male or female, although for a tiny minority of them it might be challenging to figure it out. And one thing that's really obvious about most people with DSDs is that they resent very much any suggestion that they somehow aren't "real" men or women.

They have enough to deal with, coping with very real medical issues, without mad pastel-haired activists co-opting them into the trans debate and insisting that they "have both sets of genitalia" (impossible) or that they somehow lie on a spectrum between male and female.

And as you say, they have nothing to do with the trans debate. Trans is something almost overwhelmingly performed by genotypically and phenotypically normal men and women. (Yes, I know about Erik Schinneger and you could certainly say that he transitioned, because he was indeed "wrongly assigned female at birth", and if you ask me Caster Semenya would probably have been a lot happier if he had done the same, but that again has absolutely bugger-all to do with Alex Drummond putting on a skirt and some beads and telling us he's a lesbian.)
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Old 9th May 2022, 02:20 PM   #227
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Seen on Twitter today.

"The American left will lock you in a cell with a rapist. The American left will make you have his baby."

I thought about Suburban Turkey when I read that. Everybody outside the US seems to understand with no difficulty that both of these things are evil, and that opposing one of them doesn't mean you approve of (or are an ally of those who approve of) the other.
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Old 9th May 2022, 02:59 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I kind of feel like there is something about what you are describing that is interesting. You are coming from an understanding of the world too different from any that I have ever held for me to make sense of. Is there a particular author who explains it really well, or can you make it more concrete?
No insult intended... but I rather expect that Rolfe (and I) are coming at it from the understanding of actually being a human female in a world that is dominated by males. You're looking at it from the perspective of a male, in a world built for and by males, and not seeing the problem that females have with it.

That's also, by the way, how a whole lot of transwomen are coming at the issue too. They're coming at the entire topic of "identifying as a woman" from a perspective that is completely dependent on them having lived in the world as males, with a male perspective of how the world works... and with a male perspective of "what women are like".

And even among very progressive males, the male concept of "what women are like" tends to be pretty far removed from the female perspective (regardless of political affiliation) of "what women are like". Even among well-meaning males, the concept of "women" is defined in terms of the sexual attractiveness and utility of females to males.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:01 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, I don't know about him, but my personal and subjective and utterly unscientific impression is that yes, SOME people are just using "pro-trans" as an excuse for "anti-woman."

It's hard not to get that impression when some people will rabidly support anything that puts women at risk (e.g., locking a biological woman in a prison cell with a biological male) or pushes them out of sports or whatever, but get downright hostile if you have any attention span left for anything else. I mean, even *I* got even called transphobe before -- and at that by someone who apparently never identified as a girl, never wore girls' clothes, etc; but felt entitled to lecture me about it anyway -- for as much as giving otherkin equal consideration, instead of just focusing on the stuff he wanted everyone to focus on. Incidentally, the only apparent common denominator being that it's stuff that denies women any safe spaces.

Also it's hard not to get the impression that the supposed pro-trans faction doesn't even seem to actually care what any trans actually want. As a quote from Lilah Sturges went:
So, while you’re watching the rhetorical soccer match that is the “trans conversation,” please keep in mind that trans people aren’t players in the game. We’re not even spectators. We’re the ball.

And it SUCKS.
And really, it's the best description I've ever seen. And it's hard to think that those people are really motivated by trying to help the trans, while not actually showing even the faintest interest in what the trans actually want or need.

It's like that joke about Johnny coming late to school and, when asked why he's late, he says "Oh, I helped an old lady across the street." So the teacher's like, "well, that's nice, but you're half an hour late." So Johny answers, "yeah, but she didn't want to."

So what DOES motivate these people? Well, for some it's probably just the fame of being the one who barks the loudest on Twitter. But, as I was saying, it's hard not to notice that some people's focus seems to include all that could fall equally well under 'anti-woman', and ONLY that.

Anyway, as I was saying, it's just a personal unscientific impression, but there we go.
You're not alone in that impression.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:04 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
The straw man here is that activists propose: "Any self-identification of any kind should be accommodated by others." Which is silly of course and easily refuted. A productive discussion about making actual policy would be along the lines of:

- Is it a label they are self-applying to express themselves to others, or are they asking for a formal accommodation?
- If an accommodation is being asked, what exactly is it?
- Is it reasonable and practical?
- Does instituting this request burden other people's rights or bring unfair privilege?

These answers may change with context, so there's not just one single answer that can be used across the board. For example, allowing anyone to use the restroom they are most comfortable using hinges on very different issues than inclusivity in competitive sports.

It's lazy or disingenuous to pretend these questions don't have findable answers, or that the entire issue must have the same answer across the board, and that is exactly what the "Hurr hurr, I'm an attack helicopter then" people are doing.
It's lazy and disingenuous to pretend that all of this is some grand hypothetical abstract thought experiment... while in the real world, the thing you say is a strawman is LITERALLY what activists - including the goddamned ACLU - are actually, literally, exactly demanding!
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:06 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think there's a gradient there. If accommodation is trivial, a deep examination of the legitimacy and sincerity of the request is less important. And vice versa. But generally, yes. Policies that affect other people need reasons.
Okay, then. When is it trivial? And have you bothered to consult the people who are actually negatively affected by that ask before you have deemed it to be "trivial"?
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:09 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
In fact, I've actually seen it happen from the animal side too. Long story short, my parents had a white cat which I had picked when she was a tiny kitten. Like, all her life she was among only humans. So, anyway, she was unusual in some ways, so instead of getting her snipped, my parents figure out they want kittens with those genetics. Turns out that when she went into heat, the furry little thing went ass up and yodelling at me, my brother and dad, but beat the CRAP out of any actual tomcat they brought her.
That's... normal feline behavior. A queen in heat will go ass-up and yowly to almost any other critter and some objects while in heat, but gets extremely aggressive toward fertile male cats. Part of that is simply that the posturing and yowling is an expression of discomfort - I have a NEED OMG I NEED SOMETHING I NEED!!!!!. Part of it is also that feline copulation is pretty violent all around. If a tom want's to hit that, he's going to have to bring some game of his own, or she will absolutely beat his tail back to his mommy.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:11 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I hope you realize that unless you actually present them, what you're doing is literally the lay version of the "Sophisticated Theology" fallacy. You know, where you just postulate that some perfectly reasonable and consistent argument for it or explaining it exists... err... somewhere... and somehow it's the disbelievers' burden to find it.

Sorry, logic doesn't work that way. IF you wish to defend a conclusion, then you actually have to show how it works. You don't just get to be right just because you postulate that some argument exists that makes you right.

In fact, even as fallacies go, it's particularly weak sauce. It's two notches weaker sauce than even an appeal to authority, since that one can actually tell you 1. WHAT was actually said, and 2. WHO actually said it. Whereas the sophisticated theology one just postulates that it must exist... err... in some form... err... somewhere... err... by someone.
I have learned a new term for an argument that I have repeatedly seen made, and which has always failed to convince me! "Sophisticated Theology" perfectly captures it!
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:13 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not about a slippery slope. That's Joe's red herring. It's about whether gender dysphoria is more like otherkin identity or more like bodily integrity identity disorder and factitious disorder.
Hey, I'm perfectly willing to accept cat-kin identities... until they ask for a litter box in the office.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:16 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
theprestige was talking about male and female, your reply switched it to man woman, interesting.
Not at all interesting. Rolfe has been extraordinarily consistent in the usage of "woman = adult female human" and "man = adult human male". Rolfe has been very clear that they do NOT accept those terms as being force-separated as sex versus gender.

Neither do I, by the way. I've just chosen a different approach to how I address the terms. If you have been paying any attention at all, you might have noticed that I do not use "man" and "woman" in any of my discourse, nor do I use any sex-based pronouns when referring to humans.

I can't stop you (or anyone else) from trying to coerce a change in language... but I can refuse to engage in that game altogether.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:18 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To you it's interesting because you're still thinking it through for yourself, and are still getting bamboozled by all the gender-identity flimflam being peddled here and there.
This is a fantastic sentence.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:19 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Seen on Twitter today.

"The American left will lock you in a cell with a rapist. The American left will make you have his baby."
In what way is that different to the American right?
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:20 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Did it? In my recollection at the same time, those that advocated for homosexual rights were quite open that they believed marriage should be allowed. I'm not going to contradict your personal experience, but if you are arguing that was a typical claim among advocates I think we need to look at a broader sample.
I don't recall that argument either. I do know that there were some "let's battle this bit first, then address the next step", but I don't recall anyone ever supporting the abolishment of laws against sodomy who did NOT support gay marriage. At the very least, they all wanted federally recognized civil unions with the full complement of rights that exist for married people.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:32 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Are you saying man/woman are not labels for gender in modern day society?

That's incorrect, they obviously are.
I disagree. For some people, they are exclusive to "gender", although those same people can never explain what "gender" is in the first place without resorting to negative and regressive stereotypes, or a tautology.

For a great many people, however, those terms do NOT refer to "gender", but refer to maturity, sex, and species. In exactly the same way that "mare" refers to a sexually mature female horse, and "filly" refers to a sexually immature female horse, and "colt" refers to a sexually immature male horse, and "stallion" refers to a sexually mature male horse. And for those who want to go all the way down the rabbit hole, yes - "gelding" refers to a physically mature male horse that has been castrated to prevent fertility.
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Old 9th May 2022, 03:35 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Incels. I'm not sure I see a connection between them and transgender issues though.
Go google "transmaxxing" and find a reddit link.
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