Romance Scams

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No, not even desperate. If you look at The Tinder Swindler, a Netflix documentary, you'll see for yourself that the scammer's victims were young, attractive and fashionable. Hardly desperate by any account. Simply trusting and taking people at face value. OK so now they are hardened.

The Tinder Swindler was different from most for exactly the reason you just described. A different emotional drive from desperation took over in the role of desperation in that case: hypergamy. The victims so highly prized a certain image of what the ideal man & relationship & the lifestyle they would bring would look like, that they got mentally stuck in the imagery when somebody came along who appeared to fit the image. (There could also have been some actual desperation along with that, if they realized that they'd almost certainly never have any other chances at something like that afterward if they didn't grab this one.)

Originally Posted by Vixen

She's probably already guessed it was you. Perhaps better to save her face by just hinting at it and that way she has it confirmed it was indeed you and that you know she knows that you know she knows it was you.

If you take her aside to tell her, she might hate you for crushing her dreams, even if you were only the messenger.

Whether she's already correctly inferred it or not, there is no good in telling her.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Er, hello? I may be stupid, but I'm not so stupid as not to notice this discrepancy.

Those who post like that are neither stupid nor slow, as far as I can tell, just desperate.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Vixen

She's probably already guessed it was you. Perhaps better to save her face by just hinting at it and that way she has it confirmed it was indeed you and that you know she knows that you know she knows it was you.

If you take her aside to tell her, she might hate you for crushing her dreams, even if you were only the messenger.

It's much like religion: You can't crush anybody's dreams if they don't see the benefit of having them crushed.

20 years ago, I wrote to somebody about my observations of his romantic relationship with a Cuban woman. I didn't know him particularly well. I knew his ex-wife better. She had been my salsa partner for a couple of years. Now he had this new girlfriend who had been introduced to him by his Cuban friend, Hector. He, let's call him Lars, had met her family, and he went to Cuba to see her several times a year.

I was in Cuba with a Danish companion, female, at the time mainly to take salsa classes, and one day Lars invited us to join them at a concert, which we did. They were accompanied by several Cuban friends. At one point, I noticed what appeared to be a kind of secret signaling between his girlfriend and one of the other Cubans, but I didn't think to much of it at the time, but after the concert, I mentioned it to my companion, who also thought that something wasn't quite right with the relationship, but she couldn't put her finger on what was wrong and felt uncomfortable talking about it.

After we got home, I told Lars's ex-wife and asked her if she thought it would be a good idea to mention it to him. She said that she herself and his best friend also had suspicions, but they feared his reaction if they told him. So I sent him an email, told him that I knew it was none of my business, but ...

His reply was extremely rude! 'I was an idiot who knew nothing about Cuba and Cubans. Hector, who had introduced him to his new girlfriend, was utterly unselfish and totally reliable. And he was on the way to Cuba to get her out of jail! She had been jailed on false charges, and now she needed money to bribe the corrupt Cuban police - which Hector had already told him plenty about.'

So he immediately bought a ticket to Cuba (and lost his job because he simply got up and left without permission to do so). A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do to save a damsel in distress, right?!

After Lars got back to Denmark, I got an email from him with an apology for his reaction to my email:
When he arrived in Cuba, she wasn't in jail. She had just been released, she said.
The next day Hector, his unselfish friend, turned up and threatened him to give him the money he had brought to bribe the police.
He then went to the police. They told him that Hector was a notorious violent criminal who had been in prison several times.
And the family of his Cuban girlfriend turned out to be entirely unrelated to her. They had been paid to pretend to be her family.

In other words, the old-fashioned 'analog' version of the Nigerian scam.

I have since then noticed that the hustlers in Havana adapt their schemes to the worldview of their victims. Apparently, Hector had introduced himself to Lars as an undercover agent of the Cuban state - which, of course, should have made him suspect something was wrong, but ....
However, since Lars was not exactly a Castroist, Hector turned himself into a disgruntled undercover agent, who confirmed all of Lars's ideas about corruption running rampant in Cuba, which came in handy when they made up the story about the girlfriend being falsely accused and jailed.
If Lars had been an admirer of the Castros and Cuban socialism, they would have come up with something else.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Er, hello? I may be stupid, but I'm not so stupid as not to notice this discrepancy.

The initial one is a euphemism for ******* morons, which doesn't mean they're actually sub-intelligent.

[The Atheist]

All the sympathy for the victims here has opened my eyes to what a despicable tragedy these scams are, taking money from deluded women.

Here's a link to Gofundme so one of you can start a fund to help them out.

This is the reporter in charge of the story, so you know the money goes to the right place, and be sure to post a link in this thread.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

All the sympathy for the victims here has opened my eyes to what a despicable tragedy these scams are, taking money from deluded women.

Here's a link to Gofundme so one of you can start a fund to help them out.

This is the reporter in charge of the story, so you know the money goes to the right place, and be sure to post a link in this thread.

So when nobody does act on their sympathy you can pose yourself as the only honest one.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

So when nobody does act on their sympathy you can pose yourself as the only honest one.

Yup,! Not falling for that scam!

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Those who post like that are neither stupid nor slow, as far as I can tell, just desperate.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

All the sympathy for the victims here has opened my eyes to what a despicable tragedy these scams are, taking money from deluded women.

Here's a link to Gofundme so one of you can start a fund to help them out.

This is the reporter in charge of the story, so you know the money goes to the right place, and be sure to post a link in this thread.

Nah, I'll just start a thread on a forum about how stupid they are, that's much more productive.

[Vixen]

Romance scammers work in the same way as any other confidence trickster. They target a 'mark', engage with them - hence why so many grifters have a silver tongue - often work in pairs, as in the 'three-card-trick' whereby one of the scammers pretends to be a passerby, just like the 'mark', gets hyper excited by winning over and over again (in cahoots with the dealer) so the 'mark' gets encouraged to join in because hey, look, this other guy just like me keeps on winning. BOOM! Then there was that Sorokin conmerchant who pretended she was a German heiress and played the part of a wannabe 'art director' of a gallery to the extent she even made herself believe it and then set about scamming people into paying for her meals, hotel bills and holidays. She spotted her 'marks'. For example, a glossy magazine editor, who was flattered to be invited on a luxury holiday to Morocco and then got conned into paying everything with her company credit card - the one charge Sorokin was found not guilty of, as it was deemed she did this voluntarily. I felt really sorry for this woman. Scammers mimic a transactional agreement. I give you money, you give me bread, transaction complete, both satisfied. The scammer appeals to people's dreams: winning easy money by placing a bet (who hasn't bought a lottery ticket, ever?), marriage to a young fit handsome man in exchange for you paying his airfare to your country and housing him or just the promise of being in with the incrowd like the Tinder Swindler, yachting, jetsetting and holidaying in the sun...on someone else's money. It is easy to say some middle-aged to elderly woman going on an exotic holiday and coming back with a toyboy is utterly gullible but that lady with the sagging tummy and bust, grey hair and dull life in Middle England gets in return the flattering charm of a bare-chested guy in the sun showering her with attention in his sexy accent and polite, respectable demeanour. She is getting something in return for the last of her savings as she transfers the funds to the toyboy, knowing deep down, he will be off with someone nearer his own age shortly.

How to avoid being a 'mark'? You can't really, unless you want to lock yourself away. You just need to keep your eyes wide open and if you want to throw a few bucks at a hard luck story then have no illusions that you are doing it because you want to.

The Sorokin woman had little sympathy for her victims because she reasoned they were happy to lap up her hospitality and take her money (which wasn't actually hers).

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

So when nobody does act on their sympathy you can pose yourself as the only honest one.

No, I wouldn't give a cent if I were a billionaire, but I have no problem exposing the emptiness of the sympathy.

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry

Nah, I'll just start a thread on a forum about how stupid they are, that's much more productive.

No, that's my deal - I think it's hilarious that desperate people will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to scammers thinking they're finding love.

It's you and all the others who are so deeply concerned that I thought you might like to do something more positive than offer anonymous sympathy on a forgotten corner of the internet.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

No, I wouldn't give a cent if I were a billionaire, but I have no problem exposing the emptiness of the sympathy.

Oh I think you are struggling to achieve that with your head up your arse.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Oh I think you are struggling to achieve that with your head up your arse.

Zing! What a comeback!

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

No, I wouldn't give a cent if I were a billionaire, but I have no problem exposing the emptiness of the sympathy.



No, that's my deal - I think it's hilarious that desperate people will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to scammers thinking they're finding love.

It's you and all the others who are so deeply concerned that I thought you might like to do something more positive than offer anonymous sympathy on a forgotten corner of the internet.

I have sympathy enough to counteract outright hostility towards the victims on our forgotten corner of the internet but not so much as to shell out money from my pocket.

I save my money for strippers…

[marting]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I save my money for strippers…

Saving money for the bare necessities.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Romance scammers work in the same way as any other confidence trickster. They target a 'mark', engage with them - hence why so many grifters have a silver tongue - often work in pairs, as in the 'three-card-trick' whereby one of the scammers pretends to be a passerby, just like the 'mark', gets hyper excited by winning over and over again (in cahoots with the dealer) so the 'mark' gets encouraged to join in because hey, look, this other guy just like me keeps on winning. BOOM! Then there was that Sorokin conmerchant who pretended she was a German heiress and played the part of a wannabe 'art director' of a gallery to the extent she even made herself believe it and then set about scamming people into paying for her meals, hotel bills and holidays. She spotted her 'marks'. For example, a glossy magazine editor, who was flattered to be invited on a luxury holiday to Morocco and then got conned into paying everything with her company credit card - the one charge Sorokin was found not guilty of, as it was deemed she did this voluntarily. I felt really sorry for this woman.

In Denmark, we had a case where a woman conned her way into becoming the, at first, much admired art director of an actual museum of modern art, Arken. She faked a CV and a couple of academic degrees and used her charm on the mayor and other influential elderly guys. It was a huge scandal at the time, 1990s, but I haven't found anything in English: Arkens dronning fortryllede alle - men hun var ikke den, hun udgav sig for at være (TV2Lorry.dk) Apparently, she is now a psychotherapist in England: Anna Castberg (Wiki)

Quote:

Scammers mimic a transactional agreement. I give you money, you give me bread, transaction complete, both satisfied. The scammer appeals to people's dreams: winning easy money by placing a bet (who hasn't bought a lottery ticket, ever?), marriage to a young fit handsome man in exchange for you paying his airfare to your country and housing him or just the promise of being in with the incrowd like the Tinder Swindler, yachting, jetsetting and holidaying in the sun...on someone else's money. It is easy to say some middle-aged to elderly woman going on an exotic holiday and coming back with a toyboy is utterly gullible but that lady with the sagging tummy and bust, grey hair and dull life in Middle England gets in return the flattering charm of a bare-chested guy in the sun showering her with attention in his sexy accent and polite, respectable demeanour. She is getting something in return for the last of her savings as she transfers the funds to the toyboy, knowing deep down, he will be off with someone nearer his own age shortly.

Don't forget that a lot of those marks are men.

Quote:

How to avoid being a 'mark'? You can't really, unless you want to lock yourself away. You just need to keep your eyes wide open and if you want to throw a few bucks at a hard luck story then have no illusions that you are doing it because you want to.

The Sorokin woman had little sympathy for her victims because she reasoned they were happy to lap up her hospitality and take her money (which wasn't actually hers).

Smartcooky linked to a site with good advice.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I have sympathy enough to counteract outright hostility towards the victims on our forgotten corner of the internet but not so much as to shell out money from my pocket.

I save my money for strippers…

Now that, I admire.

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

The initial one is a euphemism for ******* morons, which doesn't mean they're actually sub-intelligent.

So now your position is that you don't think morons are sub-intelligent?

Have you thought of just writing your own dictionary?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by dann

In Denmark, we had a case where a woman conned her way into becoming the, at first, much admired art director of an actual museum of modern art, Arken. She faked a CV and a couple of academic degrees and used her charm on the mayor and other influential elderly guys. It was a huge scandal at the time, 1990s, but I haven't found anything in English: Arkens dronning fortryllede alle - men hun var ikke den, hun udgav sig for at være (TV2Lorry.dk) Apparently, she is now a psychotherapist in England: Anna Castberg (Wiki)



Don't forget that a lot of those marks are men.




Smartcooky linked to a site with good advice.

The type of advice that anyone over the age of twelve should know already!

As you say, it works both ways. Remember Anna Smith? Married a very old man but hey, he knew what he was doing when he married her, even if it did seem to people she was after his money. As Caroline Ahearne, as Mrs Merton, in a comedy chat show famously asked an interviewee:

Quote:

And the character she created came to be synonymous with what is widely believed to be among the best interview questions of all time.

... she opened an interview with Debbie McGee, the partner of magician Paul Daniels, with the query: "So what attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels?"

Independent

The ugliest man of all time, with a personality to match.

So I guess your friend Lars had his own reasons for wanting to rescue the Cuban damsel in distress, albeit more complex than just wanting to exploit someone for what they can provide one. There can be positive reasons, too, such as compassion or kindness.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

So now your position is that you don't think morons are sub-intelligent?

Thanks for the attempted pedantry, but you're a Pom, I think, so it fits.

I call people dumb ***** or stupid ***** all the time.

It's not an analysis of their intelligence.

Have you started that Gofundme yet? Or are you too busy on the pedantry front to bother?

Those women need your help, mate.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

So now your position is that you don't think morons are sub-intelligent?

Have you thought of just writing your own dictionary?

I have been called stupid many, many times on this forum. Even '******* stupid'.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The type of advice that anyone over the age of twelve should know already!

What they should know (and maybe even suspect already) is more or less irrelevant when their knowledge is up against wishful thinking. In that situation, one of the many checklists you can find online may come in handy. Stories about actual cases may be even better.

Quote:

As you say, it works both ways. Remember Anna Smith? Married a very old man but hey, he knew what he was doing when he married her, even if it did seem to people she was after his money.

Are you cynically implying that it wasn't true love?!

Quote:

As Caroline Ahearne, as Mrs Merton, in a comedy chat show famously asked an interviewee:

Independent

The ugliest man of all time, with a personality to match.

So I guess your friend Lars had his own reasons for wanting to rescue the Cuban damsel in distress, albeit more complex than just wanting to exploit someone for what they can provide one. There can be positive reasons, too, such as compassion or kindness.

I didn't know him well, but his ex-wife and friend thought that he probably needed to 'feel like a real man' after having felt humiliated by the recent divorce, so a damsel in distress hit a soft spot.

[welshdean]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The type of advice that anyone over the age of twelve should know already!

As you say, it works both ways. Remember Anna Smith? Married a very old man but hey, he knew what he was doing when he married her, even if it did seem to people she was after his money. As Caroline Ahearne, as Mrs Merton, in a comedy chat show famously asked an interviewee:

Independent

The ugliest man of all time, with a personality to match.

So I guess your friend Lars had his own reasons for wanting to rescue the Cuban damsel in distress, albeit more complex than just wanting to exploit someone for what they can provide one. There can be positive reasons, too, such as compassion or kindness.

I think Lothian's missus might have something to say about that!


The women in Tinder Swindler all thought there was a significant amount of money coming their way. Nigerian prince sprang to my mind as I was watching it.

[dann]

Richard Wiseman 59 sec video about one of the tricks of this and almost any other 'trade' - whether legit or not:
Secret persuasion mind trick

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I call people dumb ***** or stupid ***** all the time.

It's not an analysis of their intelligence.

Well, I'd mock you, but what would be the point?

[The Atheist]

This just gets funnier and funnier!

The photos used in the scams included that of an Irish Senator. The other was a high-profile real estate salesman.

In both cases, the simplest search would have uncovered the fraud.

Some people just ask to be scammed, and it looks like lovelorn, desperate people are top of that list.

If that Gofundme campaign doesn't work out, I'll donate 10% of the proceeds of this bridge I have for sale.

[Sideroxylon]

Kicking down and victim blaming is always classy.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Kicking down and victim blaming is always classy.

When the victim can afford to lose half a mio thinking they're going to get laid for it, I'm 100% happy to blame the victim.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

When the victim can afford to lose half a mio thinking they're going to get laid for it, I'm 100% happy to blame the victim.

Sure, that’s what is going on in these cases.

[smartcooky]

Having money does not make someone who is the victim of a scam any less of a victim, or any more stupid than the next person.

[arthwollipot]

"Cons don't fool us because we're stupid. They fool us because we're human."

- Brian Brushwood

[Blue Mountain]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

When the victim can afford to lose half a mio thinking they're going to get laid for it, I'm 100% happy to blame the victim.

How the hell do you know the victim could "afford" to lose half a million? It could well have have been the majority of her assets—what she was planning to retire on in a few years. Now it's all gone, and she may have to work for the rest of her life because she can no longer afford to retire.

Please try to be more empathetic.

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

This just gets funnier and funnier!

The photos used in the scams included that of an Irish Senator. The other was a high-profile real estate salesman.

In both cases, the simplest search would have uncovered the fraud.

Yes, the simplest search would have, but they didn't know about that, which doesn't make them stupid. I've never conducted a photo search because I've never felt the need to do so. I now know how to do it, thanks to smartcooky's link, but I still haven't done it because it wouldn't serve any purpose for me to do so.
These people may not have known how to do it, and since they didn't suspect any foul play, at least not at first, they wouldn't even have tried to look it up.

Quote:

Some people just ask to be scammed, and it looks like lovelorn, desperate people are top of that list.

As are people who grieve so much for dearly departed loved ones that they ask a psychic to help them talk to the dead. Or people in debt asking for help to get out of that debt and then being robbed blind by scammers pretending to be debt consultants.

Quote:

If that Gofundme campaign doesn't work out, I'll donate 10% of the proceeds of this bridge I have for sale.

I can't think of anything dumber than people describing their Schadenfreude when other people should have known about being conned but didn't. I remember an OP on this forum about a young mother who died when she was trying to win a Playstation or something like that for her kids: Woman dies after water-drinking contest (NBC, Jan 14, 2007). The writer of the OP found it hilarious because she should have known but obviously didn't. However, the other contestants also didn't know, and unlike the people who conducted the contest they hadn't been warned by doctors or people calling the radio station to tell them how dangerous the contest was.

I find it amazing that it makes some ISF members feel superior to demonstrate their stupidity to the rest of us so openly.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Vixen

... often work in pairs, as in the 'three-card-trick' whereby one of the scammers pretends to be a passerby, just like the 'mark', gets hyper excited by winning over and over again (in cahoots with the dealer) so the 'mark' gets encouraged to join in because hey, look, this other guy just like me keeps on winning. BOOM!

I have observed the trick being done with three or four passersby. I was sitting on a bench for half an hour waiting for some friends to arrive. It was a very convincing performance. It was only by the third or fourth time that I thought, 'Hey, how come that same woman is watching this same spectacle again?!' I didn't see any police nearby, and they packed up and left before my friends arrived, maybe because somebody noticed that I had started to pay attention to them.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

How the hell do you know the victim could "afford" to lose half a million? It could well have have been the majority of her assets—what she was planning to retire on in a few years. Now it's all gone, and she may have to work for the rest of her life because she can no longer afford to retire.

Please try to be more empathetic.

You might as well ask a sociopath to care or a predator not to kill its prey. Its a waste of time and effort and I have long since given up trying!

As a former well-known NZ rugby coach once said... "flush the dunny and move on!"

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Sure, that’s what is going on in these cases.

Actually, I think he really is happy to blame the victims.

[Vixen]

I like to think I have an excellent BS detector and my cursory experience of online dating (GUARDIAN 'soul mates') made me notice a large number of lurkers who opted for 'anonymous' so they could view without themselves being viewed, together with a lot of old guys looking for 20-something women and guys with photos that seemed oddly familiar, probably a semi-famous footballer (and consequently, not bad-looking!). This put me off and I never pursued it. I did used to use TIME OUT classifieds which was a fun way to meet new people; one small free ad would bring a mail bag of replies, most of them really nice. I'd meet a few and they would all of them be normal friendly guys. One turned out to be the son of some Danish baroness and had a fabulous house in Belgravia full of objets d'art and burglar alarms. He was very nice and intellectual, some kind of sociology lecturer. Took me to a country estate which had commune-style living. There wasn't really a spark there, though. An incredibly handsome guy also staying there at the weekend offered me a lift back to London in his nifty sports car...so you really can win some, although we didn't arrange to meet again. Thus, I have never been conned by an online romance, mostly because I steer clear.

I do wonder if I was a victim of a scammer in my third marriage. Completely love bombed and swept off my feet. However, I had to end it, because he had anger management issues, only to discover at the supermarket my card being declined, to my surprise. I had to leave all my shopping there. I discovered my entire bank account, which was joint, had been cleaned out. Looking back on it, I am thankful this all happened before I inherited my current wealth, and that all I had to live on then, was my salary, which I soon managed to earn back. He had maxed out all of our credit cards and I had gone along with his mad spending sprees, travelling to the other side of the world and up and down the country following his sports interest. At the time it felt like a whirlwind romance that lasted some years but now looking back I suspect he was just a user. He came to stay at our summer cottage in Finland. He'd say to me, 'Make me a cup of tea' and this totally infuriated my mother. She hated him! She kicked his luggage down the road after him as we left. She obviously could spot something about him I could not. At the time. After we split, I had a massive £54,000 owing on cards and loans. I paid it all off with determination and have never again been in any kind of debt whatsoever.

So yeah, anyone can be conned and it doesn't mean you are stupid or lacking common sense.

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

"Cons don't fool us because we're stupid. They fool us because we're human."

- Brian Brushwood

Nonsense. Plenty of humans have cons attempted on them and don't fall for them. And that's after the con artists filter their selection down to the best targets and don't even try on the others.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Completely love bombed and swept off my feet.

That is one of the tell-tale signs!
Love Bombing: A Narcissist's Secret Weapon (Psychology Today, April 13, 2018)
Spotting Narcissistic Love Bombing: What It Is - and Isn't (PsychCentral, March 10, 2022)

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by Delvo

Nonsense. Plenty of humans have cons attempted on them and don't fall for them.

That sounds like you think that nothing is "human" if it doesn't affect every human on earth. Which would be silly, so that can't be what you mean.